Guild Wars 2

I don’t find it very attractive that the most challenging part of content like this is lengthy sessions of playing musical chairs with servers. After ‘winning’ your seat, the actual content being as trivial as it is, little challenge remains.

Ohoni.6057:

No, this would just further stratify expert players from inexpert players.

And that’s a bad thing because…?

Designing rewards that scale better based off of competency, skill and organizational tasks (such as guild formation) seems like a great idea to me – and I’m a terrible player that could never benefit from such an implementation. I feel it’s only fair to the players that actually put the effort in to become expert players. The fact that I, a random scrub, makes as much gold as any of the best players in the game (that don’t work the TP market) screams inadequacy of rewarding players for going out of their way to be better.

If the zone tooltip had an overview of active events and you could see them from afar and their status, we might see a lot more people get what it’s about and how to do it.

Just this would help a lot. I want to do the events, and I know the basic starting times for sandstorms etc, but when I first log in, I sometimes waste a lot of time trying to see where everyone is. If the shard race is on, that’s easy, but if people are working on the roots or Tootsie, that’s not visible unless/until I run over there. —the events are so short, map chat is not so helpful.

So just having map wide event circles and boss icons would help people organize.

Huh? After the patch 1 week in I cannot quite remember not seeing them go down unless you were on a rather empty overflow. You just needed 3 people to tag up.

You were on a better server than I was. On my server it was impossible to kill them after the first few days. The local map nobody even bothered. I was able to guest to another server though and was able to do it several times per night that way. I think the problem with it was that even though you could theoretically do each knight with a couple of people who knew what they were doing, you’d inevitably still get at least a few people AFK or standing around that were scaling it up, making it impossible to take down in time.

After reviewing your previous posts, the conclusion that I get is that you want easy mode.

And that’s what I meant about you totally not getting anything I was saying. Either reread or accept that it’s too advanced for you and move on, I can’t make it any more easy mode for you.

The game has these things called guilds. Someone who wants to regularly do these coordinated meta events could start a guild specifically to do that and invite other people that wish to do so. Scheduled times can be posted on the MOTD so everyone knows when to be on and ready. You then find an somewhat empty server and ferry people over. You can use TS or other voice chat programs to coordinate if necessary.

I don’t want to join a guild. That was one of the great things that attracted me to this game, over other more organized games like WoW, the “pick up and play” aspect of it, that you could just join in on an event in progress, play your role, and get rewarded, without having to set up times in advance or other such nonsense. I’m here to PLAY, not to develop itineraries.

You’re right that this has been thought of before, but we’ve move past them with GW2, let’s not bring them back.

And that’s a bad thing because…?

Because stratification makes more people sad than it makes happy. It’s like asking why poverty is a bad thing, these are concepts that usually develop by adolescence.

The fact that I, a random scrub, makes as much gold as any of the best players in the game (that don’t work the TP market) screams inadequacy of rewarding players for going out of their way to be better.

I think skill is its own reward. If you do particularly well, then your reward is the feeling that you’ve done particularly well. I feel great when I do activities in the game for which there is absolutely no acknowledgement of them, but I know I did something well, and that’s the best reward they could offer. Although a precursor wouldn’t hurt.

. . .

Anyways, I’ve been managing a lot of T4 runs lately, all taxiied in, usually 2-3 of them per night. Once they get going they work like a machine. Nothing was really hard though, I’d been using the LFG tool to find maps to get onto, but it seems like nobody was running them, and I went almost two hours without anyone offering a taxi or responding to requests for one. That’s not a terribly good sign no matter how you care to spin it.

I also don’t like the length of these runs, one hour of nonstop action is just too much. It would be better if the events did not repeat in a given round, just do the 1-2-3 event sequence, and then that’s it, end of the clear phase, and then do three phases of sand storm for 30 minutes total. Alternately, do 15 minutes of clear events, then do a full half hour to 40 minutes of dust storm, repeating some of the events but with the enhanced dust storm reward scaling and buried chests to dig up, and then have a final 10-15 minutes in which the skies clear again but there are no events, or maybe some of the more so-so ones, but they don’t count towards the meta so you can goof off if you don’t want to participate without hurting the group. Maybe it retains the tier you’ve earned until the events reset, so you could go to spend your geodes in peace.

Ohoni.6057:

I don’t want to join a guild. That was one of the great things that attracted me to this game, over other more organized games like WoW, the “pick up and play” aspect of it, that you could just join in on an event in progress, play your role, and get rewarded, without having to set up times in advance or other such nonsense. I’m here to PLAY, not to develop itineraries.

Keep that in mind when Anet brings out more raid-type events that require large group coordination. Naturally, the rewards will be unique to these runs, and you’ll feel forced to either 1) join a raid guild or 2) hope and pray a raid group has room for you to taxi.

Now if you don’t wish to participate, you’re free to play other content. You can get rewarded for doing your “solo” content all you want. But when you come to our “group” content, be prepared to succeed or fail as a group.

After a week of doing this I’ve come to realise that the only thing you need to reach T4 on a map is enough people and a small amount of organisation which I usually provide. If you are on a map that has reached T2/T3 then group with someone and taxi people into your map from the top of the hour, advertising it in LFG as a T4 map.

Then just spam this order of events, [Race > Moa > Frog > Queen > North Mine x3], I usually like to start the order from the currently active one. As long as the zerg follows that path and a very small number (3-5 is best) of people do the other event path starting at the Tendril (which can get more rewards but the events scale badly so you don’t want a zerg there) then you will easily reach T4 (with 10m to spare if you get the bonus favour).

You don’t need a guild raid or anything like that, just a simple guide for people to follow so they know which events to do. I.e. about as much organisation as you needed for the Queendale champ train. I only run maps for a couple of hours a day before work but I get T4 every time just by taxing people into my map and spamming that simple order of events for the zerg to do.

Keep that in mind when Anet brings out more raid-type events that require large group coordination.

That’s the whole point of this thread, in case you’ve managed to miss that over three pages. I have noticed a trend towards requiring “organized play” and I absolutely despise it. I am encouraging ANet in the strongest possible terms to avert the disaster of becoming just another raidista game and driving away all their customers who aren’t already playing WoW again.

Now if you don’t wish to participate, you’re free to play other content. You can get rewarded for doing your “solo” content all you want. But when you come to our “group” content, be prepared to succeed or fail as a group.

I think you don’t understand the meanings of the terms “solo” and “group.” Solo is stuff that you do alone, like the personal story. I HATE this content. If I want to play content like the Personal Story, I have single player games for that. Group content is content that requires multiple people. I love this content in vanilla GW2. It’s content where you can show up at any point in the content, help out, and receive rewards. This is great. The problem, as repeated numerous times throughout this thread in a way that only the most simple minded could manage to miss, is the increase in content that is not “pick up and go,” but that rather requires you to seek out a specific minority of maps and usually wait around before the event starts, going through all kinds of hassle because if you do try to just show up, then you’ll end up on a version of the map with a ton of people that have no interest in doing that type of content, and therefore will not help (while their presence prevents people who might want to help from joining your map), and making it impossible to “pick up and go” with the content, even if you know exactly what to do, even if all the people on the map who care to do the content know exactly what to do, and even if there are thousands of players out there who would like to do it and know what to do, but they are similarly scattered in small groups across the various maps.

You don’t need a guild raid or anything like that, just a simple guide for people to follow so they know which events to do. I.e. about as much organisation as you needed for the Queendale champ train.

It doesn’t take much organization, but it does require a decent number of people on the map to be interested in running the content. If any significant amount of people on the map are there for other purposes, then you can’t maintain critical mass to burn through the content and you start to lag behind. The Queensdale Train doesn’t have a timer on it, if it takes you twice as long to kill a boss then you just get to the next one slightly later. With this chain, if it takes you too long to kill moa, and then too long to kill toad, then even if someone activates the queen before the tooth despawns, she takes too long to kill for you to make the mines, perhaps even too long to kill to reach the race in time to hit the bonus.

Ohoni.6057:

It doesn’t take much organization, but it does require a decent number of people on the map to be interested in running the content.

Anyone you taxi in is going to be interested in getting to T4. Bring in enough people and you’ll soon have a zerg of people who are interested in getting to T4 and the map will reach T4.

Anyone you taxi in is going to be interested in getting to T4. Bring in enough people and you’ll soon have a zerg of people who are interested in getting to T4 and the map will reach T4.

Yeah, but considering that most maps are at least decently populated to start with, this isn’t entirely trivial. The map I eventually ended up on last night stumbled it’s way into one T4 run by a hair (literally we beat Queen and weren’t quite there but someone was doing some other event across the map and ticked it over), and then did pretty well on the next run, but even on that one we had people who were shouting over map about doing the jump puzzle.

I really do think that so long as they have hard map caps, they need to hard segregate out “train/megaboss” content from “goofing around” content. They need to do this not by using guild-purchased maps or whatever, not using methods that exclude anyone who actually wants to do the content, but just that exclude people who are there for entirely unrelated reasons. There are a dozen reasons to be in Dry Top that have nothing to do with doing T4 runs, and I think that’s a mistake. There should be “T4 Dry Tops” and “Don’t care Dry Tops,” and anyone is welcome to either, but they know which one they’re selecting going in.

if i can give my 50cent to the discussion:
why not to introduce a “channel system” like many other games?
I mean megaserver i great but why not to add a list of avaiable servers with the current population inside?
Something like:
(megaserver name not showed but i listed them to show how do i think the system should work)
channel 1 = megaserver X = high population
channel 2 = megaserver Y = low population (you will probably be here)
channel 3 = megaserver Z = full
channel 4 = no megaserver → avaiable at creation
…

doing so you can always see the “best” server or you can simply organize events simply saying: “all come on channel 2!”

that’s all

Kjeldoran.3849:

if i can give my 50cent to the discussion:
why not to introduce a “channel system” like many other games?
I mean megaserver i great but why not to add a list of avaiable servers with the current population inside?
Something like:
(megaserver name not showed but i listed them to show how do i think the system should work)
channel 1 = megaserver X = high population
channel 2 = megaserver Y = low population (you will probably be here)
channel 3 = megaserver Z = full
channel 4 = no megaserver -> avaiable at creation
…

doing so you can always see the “best” server or you can simply organize events simply saying: “all come on channel 2!”

that’s all

Maybe things like that dont happen in GW2 because LS is designed to make maximum money for minimal effort?

Katre.1084:

Maybe things like that dont happen in GW2 because LS is designed to make maximum money for minimal effort?

Oh dude, that’s not right. Arena Net always do innovative and well designed things; just look at the megaserver system… it is something of giant and never seen before. You can say there is something of similar on WoW but the megaserver is really more complex, more variables = greater complexity = wonderfull results.

The problem, unfortunately, is gw2 itself. To create big world changing events is something of spectacular but at the same time server dependent (since more players = better results).

I have to admit… thinking on what i said… i don’t think the “channel system” is really so good because this will destroy (or make useless) the megaserver system… and i don’t think that Anet wants to waste all the efforts to create it… and they are right.

So i had another idea: why not to make these “big events” to scale with overflow population?
What i mean is:
if you join a server with 1000 players → (example with dry top) 30 events neded to reach T2
if you join a server with 100 players → 3 events needed to reach T2

Obviously the more variables we can add to the “scale system” the better it suits the server and so players.
AFK players (they should be kicked in less than 30 sec form these maps… there are plenty of maps where to park your char), player activity (how many events completed, per player, in the previous X minutes?), skill cap (how many players are spamming most of the time 1#?), achievement points (average players achievement points? more achievements usually means more experience). These are only few of the criteria that the scale system can use to improve player experience.

ps: i know that actually there is an event scale system but it does scale events only if players are near the event… but what if players are afking far away? All what you got is a server full of afker with 10 ppl doing all the work… not so good. So what i say is to consider such maps as a single big scaling event, with more variables of course to better suit the situation.

pss: sorry for bad grammar :<

Ohoni.6057:

Keep that in mind when Anet brings out more raid-type events that require large group coordination.

That’s the whole point of this thread, in case you’ve managed to miss that over three pages. I have noticed a trend towards requiring “organized play” and I absolutely despise it. I am encouraging ANet in the strongest possible terms to avert the disaster of becoming just another raidista game and driving away all their customers who aren’t already playing WoW again.

Now if you don’t wish to participate, you’re free to play other content. You can get rewarded for doing your “solo” content all you want. But when you come to our “group” content, be prepared to succeed or fail as a group.

I think you don’t understand the meanings of the terms “solo” and “group.” Solo is stuff that you do alone, like the personal story. I HATE this content. If I want to play content like the Personal Story, I have single player games for that. Group content is content that requires multiple people. I love this content in vanilla GW2. It’s content where you can show up at any point in the content, help out, and receive rewards. This is great. The problem, as repeated numerous times throughout this thread in a way that only the most simple minded could manage to miss, is the increase in content that is not “pick up and go,” but that rather requires you to seek out a specific minority of maps and usually wait around before the event starts, going through all kinds of hassle because if you do try to just show up, then you’ll end up on a version of the map with a ton of people that have no interest in doing that type of content, and therefore will not help (while their presence prevents people who might want to help from joining your map), and making it impossible to “pick up and go” with the content, even if you know exactly what to do, even if all the people on the map who care to do the content know exactly what to do, and even if there are thousands of players out there who would like to do it and know what to do, but they are similarly scattered in small groups across the various maps.

You don’t need a guild raid or anything like that, just a simple guide for people to follow so they know which events to do. I.e. about as much organisation as you needed for the Queendale champ train.

It doesn’t take much organization, but it does require a decent number of people on the map to be interested in running the content. If any significant amount of people on the map are there for other purposes, then you can’t maintain critical mass to burn through the content and you start to lag behind. The Queensdale Train doesn’t have a timer on it, if it takes you twice as long to kill a boss then you just get to the next one slightly later. With this chain, if it takes you too long to kill moa, and then too long to kill toad, then even if someone activates the queen before the tooth despawns, she takes too long to kill for you to make the mines, perhaps even too long to kill to reach the race in time to hit the bonus.

You seem to be misunderstanding some things. Solo content is like your Personal Story. Dynamic events are those you can solo or fight with a group, with the only requirement is that you complete that one objective. Group events with tiered rewards are determined by the requirements met by a group. This means completing multiple objectives, some with chained objectives.

If you hate group events so much, why even bother playing them? No one is forcing you to do our content. I don’t like Dungeons, so I don’t do them. A friend of mine hates WvW, so he doesn’t do it. The choice is ultimately yours. Going further, because you want to participate in our group content without a group, you’re now asking for easy mode so you can get rewards for yourself. This doesn’t work that way. You want max rewards for doing only your part with the Great Wurm? You want max rewards for T4 Dry Top without completing all the events? This, my friend, is an issue of “Entitlement”.

@Smooth: When somebody’s entire premise is ‘I should be able to have my cake and eat it too’, then it is best to smile, nod, and go on about your day. There is no talking sense into somebody so obviously hellbent on this mindset.

@ OP: Ya, I’d like to get paid on my on my way to and from work, on my lunch break, or even while getting up and ready. I’d love to only have to go to work with the assurance that a few dozen other people are ‘on their game’ that day. These are things that ‘take away’ from my personal time/life. In the ‘open world’ that I work in, however, these are unreasonable expectations (read:demands) from a mature adult. If I want the ‘luxery’ of my family not living in a box, it is required of me to succeed in the prerequisites for whatever gives me the situational advantage to ensure that doesn’t happen. From this thread, it really seems like you play this game like a ‘job’, tbh. As far as rewards are concerned, why don’t you document/summarize your rewards in a T1 map vs. a T4 map and give us some tangible evidence that you are ‘wasting time’ by putting the effort into getting an organized map? How do you compare the value of your whims to the dedication of groups that MADE those maps ORGANIZED in the first place?

You seem to be misunderstanding some things. Solo content is like your Personal Story. Dynamic events are those you can solo or fight with a group, with the only requirement is that you complete that one objective. Group events with tiered rewards are determined by the requirements met by a group. This means completing multiple objectives, some with chained objectives.

That’s simply not true at all. Group content often includes meta events with tiered objectives (although there is also solo content with tiered objectives, in a sense), but there is plenty of group content in this game without any sort of tiered rewards or chained objectives.

I think you seem insistent on making this a “solo vs. group” distinction, even though I’ve pointed out that I come down on the “group please” side of that scenario. It would be more accurate for you to frame it as “pick-up and play” vs. “pre-organized,” both of which would be group scenarios, but the former being the sort fo group scenarios that occurred in the early days of this game, and the later being what a lot of their more recent content has skewed towards.

If you hate [pre-organized] events so much, why even bother playing them? No one is forcing you to do our content. I don’t like Dungeons, so I don’t do them. A friend of mine hates WvW, so he doesn’t do it.

Theoretically, I would be fine with that. I don’t feel, however, that ANet is presenting that as a fair choice. For one thing, it makes up the vast majority of new content. It is the only new repeatable content in the Dry Top expansion. It was the only repeatable content in the Festival expansion. If I do not engage in this content, then I would be stuck just doing the same content that’s been around for over a year now. I enjoy the old content, but I’ve done it to death and need new stuff. For your position on this to be relevant, they would need to produce both types of content in equal quantities.

Second is the massive reward differential. You can say “if you don’t like doing organized raid-like content, just don’t do it,” but if that content offers significantly higher reward than other content for the same amount of time and effort, then that isn’t exactly a reasonable position to take. If I just ignore the organized play content then I’m setting myself well behind the income curve of the game. For your position to be relevant, they would need to do a better job of balancing the rewards between organized and traditional gameplay, so that either offers the same general quality and quantity of rewards, with nothing absolutely exclusive to either type.

As far as rewards are concerned, why don’t you document/summarize your rewards in a T1 map vs. a T4 map and give us some tangible evidence that you are ‘wasting time’ by putting the effort into getting an organized map? How do you compare the value of your whims to the dedication of groups that MADE those maps ORGANIZED in the first place?

Ok, fair enough. Let’s do the math. During phase one of Dry Top, there are eight event cycles. During a T4 run, I can complete about 14 events in the first portion, for a total of about 41 geodes, give or take, plus six champ bags, plus additional dropped loot from scaled up numbers of enemies killed by a larger zerg. Then we do the Sandstorm event, which overs 6-7 events and 60-70 geodes, and three more champ bags (along with better scaled up loot). Furthermore, not only do you make more loot, but you also get a 30% discount on many items in the store. You make more and spend less.

Compare that to a T2 run, in which you lack the critical mass to burn down mobs nearly as quickly. Under those circumstances, it’s more likely that I’d complete around 8-10 events during the clear portion, for a total of around 24 geodes tops, 3-5 champ bags, and reduced loot because the events don’t scale up as much. Then during part two, we get about four of the events, for a total of 16 geodes and one champ bag, along with reduced dropped loot.

Now taken as a single event you’d do only once, that’s not a huge deal, but taken over the course of the LW cycle, if you do at least two runs per day for the 14 days of the cycle, the difference in reward level is 2800 geodes and 252 champ bags, verses 1120 geodes and 168 champ bags, so roughly 1/3 less champ bags and 40% as many geodes. You’d also have a significant reduction in the store, so their 2800 geodes would be worth more than 2.5 times as much as the 1120 a T2 player would earn. For example, if he converted all of that into lockpicks, he could get just over 186 picks. The T2 player, on the other hand, could only get 56 picks, only 1/3 as many.

It’s not an insignificant distinction.

and as for the time wasted on organization, if you only have time to do two runs per day, two hours of play, and you end up spending one of those hours trying to get into a T4 run, then you’d only be making 1600 geodes over the course of the event and 126 champ bags, not to mention spending an hour of your precious gaming time just standing around doing boring stuff like cramming on Join or refreshing the LFG tool.

And keep in mind that the Crown Pavilion event represented a considerably worse imbalance than even this.

Ohoni.6057:

As far as rewards are concerned, why don’t you document/summarize your rewards in a T1 map vs. a T4 map and give us some tangible evidence that you are ‘wasting time’ by putting the effort into getting an organized map? How do you compare the value of your whims to the dedication of groups that MADE those maps ORGANIZED in the first place?

Ok, fair enough. Let’s do the math. During phase one of Dry Top, there are eight event cycles. During a T4 run, I can complete about 14 events in the first portion, for a total of about 41 geodes, give or take, plus six champ bags, plus additional dropped loot from scaled up numbers of enemies killed by a larger zerg. Then we do the Sandstorm event, which overs 6-7 events and 60-70 geodes, and three more champ bags (along with better scaled up loot). Furthermore, not only do you make more loot, but you also get a 30% discount on many items in the store. You make more and spend less.

Compare that to a T2 run, in which you lack the critical mass to burn down mobs nearly as quickly. Under those circumstances, it’s more likely that I’d complete around 8-10 events during the clear portion, for a total of around 24 geodes tops, 3-5 champ bags, and reduced loot because the events don’t scale up as much. Then during part two, we get about four of the events, for a total of 16 geodes and one champ bag, along with reduced dropped loot.

Now taken as a single event you’d do only once, that’s not a huge deal, but taken over the course of the LW cycle, if you do at least two runs per day for the 14 days of the cycle, the difference in reward level is 2800 geodes and 252 champ bags, verses 1120 geodes and 168 champ bags, so roughly 1/3 less champ bags and 40% as many geodes. You’d also have a significant reduction in the store, so their 2800 geodes would be worth more than 2.5 times as much as the 1120 a T2 player would earn. For example, if he converted all of that into lockpicks, he could get just over 186 picks. The T2 player, on the other hand, could only get 56 picks, only 1/3 as many.

It’s not an insignificant distinction.

and as for the time wasted on organization, if you only have time to do two runs per day, two hours of play, and you end up spending one of those hours trying to get into a T4 run, then you’d only be making 1600 geodes over the course of the event and 126 champ bags, not to mention spending an hour of your precious gaming time just standing around doing boring stuff like cramming on Join or refreshing the LFG tool.

And keep in mind that the Crown Pavilion event represented a considerably worse imbalance than even this.

Soooooo, what it sounds like you’re saying is that it is incredibly beneficial and valuable to take some effort to get into a T4 map and you’re not really ‘wasting your time’ AT ALL but, you are, in fact, SAVING yourself a HUGE amount of time and effort (according to your above “math/evidence” lol). WHOOT!! See how that works? For the sake of this thread I hope it sinks in. GL and happy gaming.

Ohoni.6057:

If you hate [pre-organized] events so much, why even bother playing them? No one is forcing you to do our content. I don’t like Dungeons, so I don’t do them. A friend of mine hates WvW, so he doesn’t do it.

Theoretically, I would be fine with that. I don’t feel, however, that ANet is presenting that as a fair choice. For one thing, it makes up the vast majority of new content. It is the only new repeatable content in the Dry Top expansion. It was the only repeatable content in the Festival expansion. If I do not engage in this content, then I would be stuck just doing the same content that’s been around for over a year now. I enjoy the old content, but I’ve done it to death and need new stuff. For your position on this to be relevant, they would need to produce both types of content in equal quantities.

Second is the massive reward differential. You can say “if you don’t like doing organized raid-like content, just don’t do it,” but if that content offers significantly higher reward than other content for the same amount of time and effort, then that isn’t exactly a reasonable position to take. If I just ignore the organized play content then I’m setting myself well behind the income curve of the game. For your position to be relevant, they would need to do a better job of balancing the rewards between organized and traditional gameplay, so that either offers the same general quality and quantity of rewards, with nothing absolutely exclusive to either type.

Let me focus on the last part here. You dislike the group content, but want the rewards of the highest level of success of said group content.

Anet gave you events throughout Dry Top that you can play. They aren’t forcing you to do these, as you can just bypass them and complete the story. But if you do them, Anet is offering you different tiers of rewards, based on how well your map does in completing them all. For those who want the best rewards, they need to get organized and complete the requirements.

You brought up an interesting position:

Ohoni.6057:

I enjoy the old content, but I’ve done it to death and need new stuff.

I believe this is the key to your whole thought process with the issue at hand. You don’t “need” new stuff, you “want” it. And because you want it, you desire to get the best gear in the quickest and most cost efficient way possible. And because the cheapest content of your desires is locked behind high level rewards for group content, you’re upset. This is very similar to being upset that Anet is offering Tequatl themed weapons for only the lucky players in a group who kill Teq, or Wurm armor for only the lucky players in a group who kill the Great Wurm.

Soooooo, what it sounds like you’re saying is that it is incredibly beneficial and valuable to take some effort to get into a T4 map and you’re not really ‘wasting your time’ AT ALL but, you are, in fact, SAVING yourself a HUGE amount of time and effort (according to your above “math/evidence” lol).

And this is why slipping math standards are such a concern. What I actually noted is that if you spend half the time trying to get into a T4 map then you would be making slightly more geodes, but you would actually be making only 75% as many champ bags when compared to just doing T2 runs, so in total you’d come out behind.

That said, my point wasn’t “people shouldn’t even try for T4 runs,” it was “If anyone wants to do T4 runs, they should have instant access to a map that’s doing T4 runs,” rather than the current convoluted system in which T4 maps aren’t always available.

As we’ve made clear throughout this thread, T4 runs aren’t actually hard, anyone can do them, the only hard part is ending up on a map that is seriously attempting them. I mean, say there are 1000 players on Dry Top at a given time, and 500 of them want to do T4 runs. As I understand it, the soft cap is 120 players, so this would generate 9 total maps, most soft capped, one with only 40 people on it. Sucks to be those guys. Now, let’s say that those 500 players are evenly distributed, that would mean only 55 of those players would be on each map, maybe enough to zerg out the bosses, but they would have a tricky time managing multiple events at once. If say two servers got organized, and drew in an excess of T4 players, then let’s say they each end up with 120 T4 players, that would leave only 260 for the other seven servers, or only 37 each. If a third server became fully organized, it would leave only 23 people on each server, and so on. Ideally what you would have instead is a system that takes those 500 players and automatically sorts them into T4-motivated maps, so that you would end up with exactly five servers of 100, and anyone who tries to join in later would get added to one of those.

Let me focus on the last part here. You dislike the [organized map] content, but want the rewards of the highest level of success of said [organized map]content.

Ok, I’m going to have to start editing your quotes so that they remain relevant to the topic at hand, I hope you don’t mind but they don’t make any sense otherwise.

But that done, yes, I dislike the organized map content, but want the rewards of the highest level of success of said organized map content. I’m willing to put forth just as much effort and require just as much skill as any player on one of those organized maps, I just don’t want the unrelated hassles involved in getting onto an organized map. They need to either provide the same rewards to any map you manage to get on, or they need to make it completely effortless to reach an organized map if that’s where you want to be.

Keep in mind, I have very few issues with how the organized map content actually plays, aside from some slight tweaks here and there, I just don’t think their current mechanics make them convenient enough to join, and that it’s unreasonable for them to offer bonus rewards until they resolve that.

I believe this is the key to your whole thought process with the issue at hand. You don’t “need” new stuff, you “want” it.

Forgive me for saying so, but this is really a bullkitten argument. We’re talking about a game. Strictly speaking, there is nothing whatsoever that is a “need” in a game. Everything is a “want” to some degree. If I say that I “need” something, then I mean that I require it to keep me invested in the game, and that without it I would just do something else with my time. Trying to argue about word choice here is just a semantic distraction that helps no one.

disagree with OP…i think this kind of thing should be revisited often….but obviously not a “given” for every new zone introduced. over other one would be fine.

bringing any incentive for “zerg/map-wide” semi-organized play is a positive thing. while the map play hardly requires organized play….it gives extra incentives for participating in a zone. i like that (even tho i feel the current rewards for upping the tier is underwhelming).

bringing any incentive for “zerg/map-wide” semi-organized play is a positive thing. while the map play hardly requires organized play….it gives extra incentives for participating in a zone. i like that (even tho i feel the current rewards for upping the tier is underwhelming).

I think that content that gets players moving through the zone and doing activities is fine, but the metas that reward only highly organized maps ruin it. I mean, the original Scarlet one invasion chains worked fine, for example, until they changed the reward structure so that it was no longer worth bothering.

Ohoni.6057:

~~~ snip ~~~

This isn’t bull. This is a valid assessment when discussing the nature of “Entitlement”. This feeling isn’t a bad thing. We, as players, all want the best stuff. But that’s a lot different from saying that we “need” the best stuff. The game was designed so that the Casual player can still succeed without all the extra fluff that high tiered rewards grant. You want the extra fluff on a personal level, and are vocal about having it. You don’t need it.

Back to your desire to have the best rewards from group content, without the success of the group. You talk about wanting the conveniences of being about to join a group that’s doing group content. If you aren’t afforded that convenience, you feel no one else should have access to the high level rewards. Realize that you are an outsider to the group forming. As a solo player wanting to join a group, you still have that opportunity if you can find someone kind enough to taxi you in. Don’t take that kindness, and mistake that for the group being required to let you in because you feel you deserve to be there.

There are two things you can do to help you with the issue of group content. 1) Join a raid-type/raid-focused guild. 2) Organize your own groups. In the case of the latter, your success would be determined on your ability to gather the right people, and to be able to lead them through the proper events.

The game was designed so that the Casual player can still succeed without all the extra fluff that high tiered rewards grant. You want the extra fluff on a personal level, and are vocal about having it. You don’t need it.

I need it as much as I need anything that could possibly be related to playing a game, so within the context of this forum, which is devoted to a game called GW2, yes I do “need” it. If we were discussing this on a forum devoted to necessities of life, weighed against things like food and shelter, than obviously game rewards would not qualify as “needs,” but when discussing what I need to keep me engaged inside a game world, yes, I’m afraid that does include feeling justly rewarded for the effort I put in, that if I put in equal effort to other players that I should be equally rewarded for it, without regard to what sort of guild they belong to. If I don’t feel that the developers are making good faith efforts to provide that, then I need to find something else to play, and I’d really rather I didn’t have to because when this game is working well, I really enjoy it.

Back to your desire to have the best rewards from group content, without the success of the group. You talk about wanting the conveniences of being about to join a group that’s doing group content. If you aren’t afforded that convenience, you feel no one else should have access to the high level rewards. Realize that you are an outsider to the group forming. As a solo player wanting to join a group, you still have that opportunity if you can find someone kind enough to taxi you in. Don’t take that kindness, and mistake that for the group being required to let you in because you feel you deserve to be there.

And recognize that even this elite little clique only exists at the largess of the game developers, who designed the systems. This is not the raid-guild’s world, they are just playing in it. I’m not saying that people on a T4 map are obligated to invite me in, I’m saying that ANet is obligated to provide a game system in which I shouldn’t have to be invited in, because merely wanting to be on a T4 map automatically places me on one.

It shouldn’t require outside coordination amongst the players, it shouldn’t require guilds, it should just be a natural consequence of the tools the developers provide that requires no direct interaction with any other players.

Ohoni.6057:

And recognize that even this elite little clique only exists at the largess of the game developers, who designed the systems. This is not the raid-guild’s world, they are just playing in it. I’m not saying that people on a T4 map are obligated to invite me in, I’m saying that ANet is obligated to provide a game system in which I shouldn’t have to be invited in, because merely wanting to be on a T4 map automatically places me on one.

It shouldn’t require outside coordination amongst the players, it shouldn’t require guilds, it should just be a natural consequence of the tools the developers provide that requires no direct interaction with any other players.

Nope. There’s nothing that says you deserve to be in a certain map with certain group that you’re not a part of. If you have a guild with 200 players trying to get into a map that only holds 120 to 150, and you’re not part of that guild, why do you feel you have a priority over the people who are actually planning a run?

I agree Anet needs to make better mechanics so organized communities can gather for group content. But if something like this were to be implemented, realize solo players like you will more likely lose out. You wouldn’t be able to get into the specific map, unless you have a friend invite you in.

Lastly, succeeding at content is a natural consequence of players just playing the content. But when you want to succeed at the highest tiers of rewards, or shall I call it “challenging group content”, you and everyone else needs to put in maximum effort to meet the requirements. Solo players can get T1 or T2 rewards, but T4, or 5, or 6 requires a group with coordination. The highest rewards are exclusive to groups who can pull it off. A solo player should never be able to access these rewards, unless you’re a solo player who just so happens to be running with that group. This forces players to do what this game intended on players doing, getting together to tackle tough challenges. The social aspect of getting together is a nice side bonus the game rewards you.

Nope. There’s nothing that says you deserve to be in a certain map with certain group that you’re not a part of. If you have a guild with 200 players trying to get into a map that only holds 120 to 150, and you’re not part of that guild, why do you feel you have a priority over the people who are actually planning a run?

I’m saying that nothing you said there should even be a factor. It shouldn’t be about 200 player guilds trying to get into a map, it should be about 201 players trying to get into a map, and all 201 of them being happy with the outcome, whether they end up with the people in their guild or not, because either way they will have fun, accomplish the task, and get fairly reward for it.

If 149 of your people get onto the map, and also me, and then 51 of your people get stuck outside of it, then that is still a bad outcome. The good outcome would be for either 100-101 of the players each end up on two different maps, in which they are still able to accomplish the goals because the requirements would scale to those group sizes, or those 201 players are added to another 99 players who also want to do that content, and are split between two maps and are able to do the content.

You keep trying to frame this as me trying to horn in on your territory, me trying to elbow my way into your guild run. I don’t want into your guild run, I don’t want to HAVE to want into your guild run. My point is that you don’t own that map, it’s not yours to grant entry to. It’s ANet’s and they should grant entry to everyone equally. You should definitely be able to get access to a T4 map on demand, as should anyone that isn’t you, and isn’t in your guild. EVERYONE should have access to a T4 map whenever they want access to one.

I agree Anet needs to make better mechanics so organized communities can gather for group content. But if something like this were to be implemented, realize solo players like you will more likely lose out. You wouldn’t be able to get into the specific map, unless you have a friend invite you in.

Then they shouldn’t do that, because that would be a step in the wrong direction. The mechanics involved should not be about joining in on people, they should not give those people any advanced priority, it should be based on everyone who wants in, gets in.

Lastly, succeeding at content is a natural consequence of players just playing the content. But when you want to succeed at the highest tiers of rewards, or shall I call it “challenging group content”, you and everyone else needs to put in maximum effort to meet the requirements.

And I’m willing to put in that effort, I never slack off when doing content, I’m constantly on the move and learn patterns fast. I just don’t like the agonizing set-up involved in getting a proper run started. I want all content to use the model of the classic world bosses, where you can just drop in when their timer is active, do the tasks the event calls for, and everyone goes home happy.

The highest rewards are exclusive to groups who can pull it off.

I reject that as a positive element. It’s a destructive one that just tears communities down, to segregate content off to only certain kinds of players and their cliques. Other games do plenty of that mess, there’s no place for it in GW2. This is the game with the nice community. Mostly.

This forces players to do what this game intended on players doing, getting together to tackle tough challenges. The social aspect of getting together is a nice side bonus the game rewards you.

Getting together is great. Nobody’s talking about decreasing that in ANY way. All I object to is that the people who get together should have to pre-plan any of it, or be a part of a preexisting social clique. 150 people who have never met before and all showed up a minute before the event started should be just as capable of achieving maximum reward level as 150 people who are in a guild and have done plenty of content together in the past.

What’s important is mechanisms that allow the former group of players to come together smoothly and efficiently. As I’ve pointed out numerous times the existing Dry Top map (among other maps) fails at this, because there are so many other things people can be doing in Dry Top, and people doing those things, through no fault of their own, are taking up slots that T4 runners could be using. Specific to Dry Top, the ONLY change they’d need to make would be a simple method to queue up for a “T4 Drytop Map,” in which all non-event content was removed completely, giving no reason for anyone to be there other than to do T4 runs.

Random people coming together can achieve things, just typically when you do that 125 of them don’t give a kitten about trying to do things right. That’s why people formed guilds/whatever to do these types of events in hopes of avoiding those people who just waste space.

No matter what ANet does the people who waste space will continue to do nothing but that.

If Anet wants to have map-wide organization be a function for reward, there needs to be actual tools for map-wide organization (ikr). I don’t understand why they wouldn’t make the tools before introducing the need for organization. O.o

I like that the success of Events is tied to something most people want. I rarely get to see the fortification in Southsun Cove successfully defended.

Djinn.9245:

If Anet wants to have map-wide organization be a function for reward, there needs to be actual tools for map-wide organization (ikr). I don’t understand why they wouldn’t make the tools before introducing the need for organization. O.o

There are tools.

Ohoni.6057:

Now in the abstract, there’s nothing wrong with this, better performance = better reward, makes sense. The problem is, the game’s architecture is HORRIBLE for managing this sort of thing, because players have almost no choice as to whether they end up on a T4/Gold map, or a T2/Bronze map. You just load up and hope for the best, chances are you’ll get the latter and there’s little you can do about it.

Nothing you can do about it? Let me let you in on a little secret… In Guild Wars 2, there is this wonderful feature called map chat. Use it to find a group of, oh, five people that are willing to actually use their brains. Spread out, CALL OUT, and complete the events, and there you have it, a tier four sandstorm.

Seriously though…. You’re actually complaining about something like this? Put in a little bit of work. On the second day that the content was out, I did exactly what I said above, and went from a tier two sandstorm to a tier four within one run.

Nothing you can do about it? Let me let you in on a little secret… In Guild Wars 2, there is this wonderful feature called map chat. Use it to find a group of, oh, five people that are willing to actually use their brains. Spread out, CALL OUT, and complete the events, and there you have it, a tier four sandstorm.

Five people can’t reach T3, at least in my experience. I’ve run Dry Top with a group of 15+ people running from event to event and still barely made T3, if that. The problem is that to reach T4, you need at least a couple of small teams running the lighter events, AND you need a critical mass in your primary group so that you can stomp down some of the events. You get 20-30 people on toad rock and you can wrap that up in 15-20 seconds and move on to the Queen. You get 5 people up there and even if you are all good at it you won’t drop her in less than a couple minutes.

Put in a little bit of work. On the second day that the content was out, I did exactly what I said above, and went from a tier two sandstorm to a tier four within one run.

If that’s true then someone else was apparently doing all the heavy lifting on a different part of the map. You should be grateful.

Ohoni.6057:

Group content is content that requires multiple people. I love this content in vanilla GW2. It’s content where you can show up at any point in the content, help out, and receive rewards. This is great.

Yeah, I don’t think so buddy. Let the firemen put out the fire, pour a glass of water on the ashes and ask to have your picture in the paper as a hero right?

There isn’t a common ground on this because there are different gamers to cater to. For as many players that want to do what you’re saying “showing up at any point to help out and receive rewards”, there are just as many who want to actively and meaningfully contribute.

I count myself in the second camp. Just “showing up” is exactly what most of this game’s open world is and is why so many people have lost interest in it. You show up, you tag mobs, you press 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,etc… and you get a rewards. I’m glad that Anet have found a way to move away from this. Obviously this isn’t going to please everyone.

Just remember that there isn’t a golden solution. That vanilla gameplay you describe actually made a few close friends of mine very bored with the level of large scale organization and challenge in the game.

Yeah, I don’t think so buddy. Let the firemen put out the fire, pour a glass of water on the ashes and ask to have your picture in the paper as a hero right?

No, more like, see a fire, run up, grab a hose, meaningfully help put it out, and get the same rewards as everyone else. This concept shouldn’t come as a shock to you, it’s the FOUNDATION of GW2, the major defining trait that separated this game from those that came before.

Just remember that there isn’t a golden solution. That vanilla gameplay you describe actually made a few close friends of mine very bored with the level of large scale organization and challenge in the game.

Yes, it definitely isn’t for everybody. You can find those “people that it isn’t for” hanging out on the message boards for other games, talking about how terrible GW2 is and how they quit soon after launch and never looked back. You know where you won’t find them, ever? Playing Guild Wars 2. They are gone. Let’s put them out of mind. The people who are still playing this game, who have always been playing this game, are those in the other camp, those that actually LIKE Guild Wars 2, and want more of the same.

I like Dry Top’s tiered merchant because Tier 3 is quite easy to achieve and it’s all you need to have every item available. Obtaining the currency is based on my own ability, which, hilariously, is also the reward, so it’s not out of reach like a Bronze Boss Blitz Chest.
Although, it seemed 50/50 to load into an instance where no one is doing anything in the Pavilion, or there’s a mob duet achieving Bronze.

I’d have to say that over the past week there has been no day when I haven’t been able to get into or make a T4 instance of Dry Top. I also have all the rewards from the vendor now, including the cooking recipes and I’ve bought about 40 keys and got recipes on alts now.

All the basic recipes can also come from a T2 instance which isn’t difficult to achieve as it only requires about 4 complete events, and you can solo Tendrils + Basket with bonus favour easily so that’s T2 right there. Obviously T4 means more rewards and quicker grind to get what you want.

If you’re not willing to help make it a higher tier server, you are not willing to meaningfully contribute. Simple as that Ohoni. That was the intended foundation of GW2 and we know how that turned out.

That’s why you have players who can solo kitten near everything in this game and you have people who didn’t know what traits were because you can accomplish everything in open world by just pressing 1 and running around.

There is a huge gap between meaningful contribution and “showing up to help”.

If you’re not willing to help make it a higher tier server, you are not willing to meaningfully contribute. Simple as that Ohoni. That was the intended foundation of GW2 and we know how that turned out.

I keep Tootsie stunned, I keep Nochtli blinded, I pull Inquest away from hostages, I pass crystals up from the backfield and take out their players, I dodge the skritt’s llama bombs, I use my AoE’s to keep track of whether the Dust Monster is damageable or not, and I call out buried chests when I see them. I think I contribute plenty, and I don’t need to you tell me whether I am or not.

Ayrilana.1396:

Djinn.9245:

If Anet wants to have map-wide organization be a function for reward, there needs to be actual tools for map-wide organization (ikr). I don’t understand why they wouldn’t make the tools before introducing the need for organization. O.o

There are tools.

There are tools to organize an entire map?! Wow, I guess I missed them – please show me!

/sarcasm

The only tool to try to organize a map is map chat. But that is not sufficient as is abundantly clear.

Ohoni.6057:

~~~ snip ~~~

Ohoni, there seems to be a serious disconnect here on what you feel you deserve. I get that you want to be rewarded for your participation in events. In fact, the current mechanics already do. But this is where you seem to not understand the reward mechanics. There’s a difference between the individual rewards, and group rewards.

If you stunlock Tootsie or help rescue the hostages, you are doing “your” part, and are rewarded once the event ends. The requirements here are straight-forward: complete the event. Now let’s take a look at the Tiered Rewards. In order to move up the reward ladder, you need to fill the event bar. This is done by completing X amount of events within the specific time limit. You contribute to the bar, but in order for everyone to get the highest tier (T4), all requirements must be met. Without the help of other players’ contributions to the event bar, you cannot meet the requirements, thus you don’t deserve the T4 rewards. But that’s not to say you don’t get rewarded at all.

This concept is a very simple one. The game has many group events that have requirements before you can win. Boss Blitz had a timer in which all bosses needed to be killed to get Gold rewards. Don’t make the initial timer, you move down to Silver or Bronze. Just because you killed one boss out of six, doesn’t mean you automatically deserve the best rewards. Your success is determined with everyone else doing their part.

So in conclusion, no player is “Entitled” to the best or highest tier of rewards of group content, if the event in question cannot be successfully completed by the group. If you don’t like that idea, don’t do group content. Do other things that you can do solo, and have complete control over.

Djinn.9245:

Ayrilana.1396:

Djinn.9245:

If Anet wants to have map-wide organization be a function for reward, there needs to be actual tools for map-wide organization (ikr). I don’t understand why they wouldn’t make the tools before introducing the need for organization. O.o

There are tools.

There are tools to organize an entire map?! Wow, I guess I missed them – please show me!

/sarcasm

The only tool to try to organize a map is map chat. But that is not sufficient as is abundantly clear.

Map chat can be used to organize and has been more than enough for all content. People have created guilds to help organize future events and to make sure they have the necessary players to perform the events effectively. You have commander tags to help split up players. There’s also teamspeak, and other chat programs, to make things a little easier rather than typing.

This is just another example where bringing back GW1’s district system would be the cure for what ails us. One of my highest rated posts was from the “Narrative Lessons from 15 months of Scarlet” thread, which contained the statement, “No more events that requite the full attention of everyone on the map.” This is one of those instances. End the waiting while join spamming and give us districts.

Ayrilana.1396:

Djinn.9245:

Ayrilana.1396:

Djinn.9245:

If Anet wants to have map-wide organization be a function for reward, there needs to be actual tools for map-wide organization (ikr). I don’t understand why they wouldn’t make the tools before introducing the need for organization. O.o

There are tools.

There are tools to organize an entire map?! Wow, I guess I missed them – please show me!

/sarcasm

The only tool to try to organize a map is map chat. But that is not sufficient as is abundantly clear.

Map chat can be used to organize and has been more than enough for all content. People have created guilds to help organize future events and to make sure they have the necessary players to perform the events effectively. You have commander tags to help split up players. There’s also teamspeak, and other chat programs, to make things a little easier rather than typing.

Map chat, and creating mass guilds may be adequate for some, but Gw2 can do a lot better. Gw2 organizational tools are pretty inferior to even some post WoW mmorpgs, and teamspeak is a 3rd party tool, so I wont consider that as part of Gw2’s organizational tools.

I would compare Guild Wars 2 organizational tools to using a butter knife in place of a slot screwdriver, it works, but it’s not the ideal tool for the job.

So you would prefer for Anet to spend time and resources to develop in-game voice chat, something they probably have never done before, so that players do not have to use third party programs that offer more flexibility and are more reliable?

I feel like an old man saying hits, but back in the day we ran raids with just text chat. Now we have TS/Vent if people want to bypass learning to type.

I do NOT want an in game voice chat, the games I’ve seen attempt this just wait money and resources for products that go unused by the majority of players because they are buggy pieces of junk.

For organization boss blitz just having a global event window displaying the Health levels of each boss would have been excellent. For Dry Top being able to see the active events on the map or some way of knowing exactly what events were up and where would solve all the issues IMO. They’re really not far off from being perfect.

Megaservers on the other hand… something needs to be done there.

Ohoni, there seems to be a serious disconnect here on what you feel you deserve. I get that you want to be rewarded for your participation in events. In fact, the current mechanics already do. But this is where you seem to not understand the reward mechanics. There’s a difference between the individual rewards, and group rewards.

Pengy, I think it’s fair to say that I’m not an idiot, so maybe it would be a good idea for you to stop talking to me like I am an idiot, and instead read what I’m saying and respond to it as though I’m a player of equal skill, knowledge, and intelligence as yourself, who has a fundamental disagreement about the ideal state of design for this game.

So in conclusion, no player is “Entitled” to the best or highest tier of rewards of group content, if the event in question cannot be successfully completed by the group. If you don’t like that idea, don’t do group content. Do other things that you can do solo, and have complete control over.

First, you keep saying “solo.” I have replied numerous times that I have zero interest in solo gameplay. Your deliberate ignorance on this point is not constructive.

Second, I would be fine with “do something else with my time” as a response, IF that “something else” were equally as rewarding and engaging. As it stands, the organized meta content tends to be far more rewarding than other types of content, and also tends to represent the only new content being added. “Do something else” really doesn’t seem to be a realistic alternative at the moment, but if ANet wants to develop it into one, then that would satisfy me just fine. I don’t need to do ALL the content, I just need to feel that my time and effort is fairly rewarded.

Third, I do not feel entitled to max rewards for no effort. All I am saying is, if I do my role on a map that is only capable of getting T2, while someone else performs equally as well on a map that does T4, then the latter player would receive significantly higher rewards. The difference in our reward level would have nothing to do with player skill. All I’m saying is, so long as that imbalance exists, it’s ANet’s responsibility to make sure that the former place can as effortlessly as possible and with zero downtime, find his way onto the T4 map where he can maximize his rewards.

I’m not saying that there can’t be a reward differential between a group that does very well as a group vs. a group that does poorly as a group, I’m saying that they need to reduce the chances of ending up in a group that does less than you’re capable of, that you should be able to ALWAYS end up in a group of players averaging equal or greater skill than yourself, without having to coordinate with those players in advance to do so.

For organization boss blitz just having a global event window displaying the Health levels of each boss would have been excellent. For Dry Top being able to see the active events on the map or some way of knowing exactly what events were up and where would solve all the issues IMO. They’re really not far off from being perfect.

Yeah, voice chat has nothing to do with this. Voice chat is entirely unnecessary. It’s more that they need better tools for putting players with similar goals into the same place, and better feedback on the map and event UIs to let players know all the events that are active and how each is performing, so that they can tell at a glance where their efforts would be best applied. I mean, looking back at Boss Blitz,

Stage 1 Improvement: Show somewhere the life bar of every boss at once, so you could tell without map chat calls (which often got suppressed) how each was doing.

Stage 2 Improvement: Have a better way of dealing with AFK players, my suggestion being that after two minutes of inactivity, they stop scaling nearby events and stop receiving rewards from them. Maybe even buff other nearby players a bit for each AFKer, just enough to make up for the fact that the map is effectively running under-staffed.

Stage 3 Improvement: Show under each boss how many players were scaling up that boss, so you could tell at a glance which bosses could absorb new players or were maybe over-scaled.

Stage 4 Improvement: Queued “join in map” functions to allow you to queue up to enter a hard capped map and automatically do so when it becomes available, rather than having to spam join. Ideally you could do this without even needing to be on the same map (ie you could run off to LA or any other zone and it would transport you back when the queue procced), or even with another character.

These are all changes that would have a massive improvement to Blitz, and that the basic technology would apply to any number of other content they have done and likely will do, and none of it had to do with voice chat.

Ohoni.6057:

~~~ snip ~~~

You still don’t understand the difference in rewards. I’ll use both you and me as examples. If you put in maximum efforts on your map and only get T2, and I put in the same efforts and get T4, you do not deserve the same rewards as I. This is because your map failed to meet the requirements to reach the highest tier of rewards. I’ll give another example. On your map, you were the main Commander who was able to rally your group and push your map to T3, but I tagged one enemy and got T4 on my map because the other players helped to meet the requirements. You put in 110% effort, while I just tagged one enemy to get credit and AFK’d the rest. In this case, you still don’t deserve T4, because your map didn’t meet the requirements, while mine did.

You probably hate the above examples, but unfortunately, that’s how the mechanics work. If a group fulfills the requirements for T4, the merchants all unlock for everyone. Random pugs who didn’t participate still get to enjoy the benefits, because that’s the mechanic of the reward. The one big drawback to not participating, is that you don’t get the Geode rewards per event that was done. So even if the map unlocks T4 merchants, not everyone can make full use of them anyways.

Think of this like CoF. The Dungeon is locked until a group decides to complete the meta events to open it. So if there’s 100 players on the map all waiting at the entrance to CoF, and only 5 players actually doing the meta chain, the whole map benefits from those 5 players. If you were the Commander doing the meta chain, and failed to complete it for whatever reason, then the whole map fails until the meta event restarts

Onto your next complaint. Again, you are not Entitled to get onto a map where there are other like-minded people who want T4. Anet cannot segregate players based on their desire to reach T4. How would you measure their thoughts and skill levels? Until we get headgear like Sword Art Online that connects directly to our brains, there’s no way to do it. Maybe you’d prefer a button that says “I want to join a T4 map”? If that were available, I guarantee you that 100% of the players seeing that would all press that button, and you’d be right back where you started.

The only thing I agree with you is that Anet needs to make more tools and mechanics for large groups to gather on the same map. Realize that this would work against you, since it would be way for groups to get away from the “solo” players.

Edit – and by “solo”, I mean “not part of a group”

Ayrilana.1396:

So you would prefer for Anet to spend time and resources to develop in-game voice chat, something they probably have never done before, so that players do not have to use third party programs that offer more flexibility and are more reliable?

I’m not asking for voice chat, I’m talking about mass party features.

Something like this
Allow someone who wishes to lead the ability to create a public mass party that people who wish to participate can join, with its own chat

Have a UI for this mass party that allows the leader to keep track of how many people are in 5 man parties, and possibly be able to view the locations of whoever the party leaders are on the map as dots. Also allow them to them the number of total players in the mass party so they know what numbers they’re working with.

^ Not saying that’s the best solution, but that’s what I mean by organizational tools.

Unnecessary though.

Ohoni.6057:

Five people can’t reach T3, at least in my experience. I’ve run Dry Top with a group of 15+ people running from event to event and still barely made T3, if that. The problem is that to reach T4, you need at least a couple of small teams running the lighter events, AND you need a critical mass in your primary group so that you can stomp down some of the events. You get 20-30 people on toad rock and you can wrap that up in 15-20 seconds and move on to the Queen. You get 5 people up there and even if you are all good at it you won’t drop her in less than a couple minutes.

A single player who is used to the specific events is able to do Jungle Tendril, Nochtli and Kite Basket completely solo (with bonus favor for JT and KB), all within 5 minutes each. Nochtli can be a bit of a pain if they make a mistake, and it can become really bothersome if she gets scaled up terribly (often happens if people are killing Moa nearby), but it’s still part of the ‘light event’ group.

That leaves Crystal Race, Inquest Mine, North Mine, Tootsie, Colocal Queen and Escort Selene. Escort Selene can be soloed, but can’t be sped up by much, and doesn’t fit into any chains very well. If you can at least get two of the group events done every 15 minutes while your solo player is taking care of the other events, then T3 is pretty easy.

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In order to reach T4, you need to split up to cover the group events, especially so you can be at some of them before they start. North Mine and Inquest Mine (Champ Golem version) are particularly critical there, since they have rather tight failure timers, and are tucked out of the way in the map. By comparison, it’s easy to get people to pitch into Crystal Race because everyone runs through that area.

You don’t need a lot of people, but you do need enough willing to be ready for the group events, and not just follow the zerg. But five people should definitely be able to reach T3, if they pick their events wisely.

You still don’t understand the difference in rewards. I’ll use both you and me as examples. If you put in maximum efforts on your map and only get T2, and I put in the same efforts and get T4, you do not deserve the same rewards as I.

And that’s where we have a fundamental disagreement. I am not wrong, and neither, technically, are you, you’re just wrong for insisting that yours is the only opinion that could possibly matter. My position, which you’ve done nothing to convince me out of, is that EITHER I would deserve just as much reward for putting in the equal amount of effort on a T2 map as you would on a T4, OR the game owes it to any player who wants to be on a T4 capable map the availability of such a map. It is a fundamental injustice for them to set up a system in which equal effort does not result in equal reward, AND to not give all players equal access to the “superior” way of doing it.

If T4 maps just automatically give out higher reward for equal effort, then everyone should be able to get on one on demand, no hassle.

You probably hate the above examples, but unfortunately, that’s how the mechanics work.

Yes.

Need we delve again into how I’m not an idiot?

That is the way it works, now, but it is not how I believe it should work in future content.

Have you even read anything I’ve posted? Anything? The first post maybe? I’d really rather not address you as if you’re an idiot, but you’re making it very difficult when you seem to be missing even the most fundamental points being made here.

Think of this like CoF. The Dungeon is locked until a group decides to complete the meta events to open it.

And the CoF meta is another aspect of the game that is almost universally despised by the players. Things that don’t work CAN be fixed, explaining how they do work to people who want them changed does not move the ball.

Onto your next complaint. Again, you are not Entitled to get onto a map where there are other like-minded people who want T4. Anet cannot segregate players based on their desire to reach T4.

Why not? It seems fairly simple to me. “Do you want to do T4 runs?” If yes, T4 map. If no, non-T4 map. Problem solved. As I’ve repeated numberous times, I believe the simplest method is to just have two distinct varieties of the map, one with the meta events and nothing else, and one without the meta and all the other junk, and you could choose which one you were up for.

Maybe you’d prefer a button that says “I want to join a T4 map”? If that were available, I guarantee you that 100% of the players seeing that would all press that button, and you’d be right back where you started.

I guarantee you’d be wrong, since as most people have pointed out, T4 is not hard, it just requires a critical mass of interested players. The sole reason maps ever fail to reach T4 is because large portions of the players filling up space on the map are engaged in other activities like story mode, JP, coins, etc. If everyone on the map is someone who intends to hit T4, then T4 shall be hit. If your assertion is that people will just sign in and then go AFK or something, well sure, that will happen, but the same can happen today to anyone that uses the LFG tool to join in on a T4 map, and yet I’ve never seen one actually implode.

Nah. Just have real raids – the 10 to 30 man stuff. The GW2 super-sized “raid” kind of stinks – from bosses to events. Some of dry top is interesting, at least. But the mega coordination thing just kills it (not that it’s worth it in the first place.) It couldn’t hurt to borrow a gem from the King; I think they’re borrowing one or two of ours.

There are games with raids. They are made by other companies. Let’s keep it that way.

That leaves Crystal Race, Inquest Mine, North Mine, Tootsie, Colocal Queen and Escort Selene. Escort Selene can be soloed, but can’t be sped up by much, and doesn’t fit into any chains very well. If you can at least get two of the group events done every 15 minutes while your solo player is taking care of the other events, then T3 is pretty easy.

Seems like a lot of needless risk and hassle. Wouldn’t it be better to just get 60+ players all interested in running a T4 map? Even if it is possible to stagger through a T3 run with a tiny group, you get a lot more event completions and a lot more kill loot when you travel in large packs. In any case, even if five people could theoretically push T3, these wouldn’t likely be five random people you’d be likely to have on a random map, we’d still be back to needing to have “your crew” available.