Guild Wars 2

So this is probably going to be an unpopular thread but I think ArenaNet needs to take a second pass at the Silverwastes rewards balance. Specifically I’m talking about how rewarding the Bandit Chests are versus the small amount of time and effort involved in opening them. Secondary to that is the impact this has on the other content on the map (the Breach and organising to hold/upgrade all four forts) and how the easy rewards are pitting players that want to organise the map against players that want to farm chests. Currently I believe it’s too easy/rewarding to farm chests and the Breach is not only not rewarding enough (by comparison) but also the Breach is made harder by everyone farming chests instead.

Here are the problems as I see them:

• Keys are nearly infinite in supply due to the ability to purchase them (good) and the fact that opening a chest result in a bandit cred return almost identical to the price of a key (bad).
• Bandit Chests are significantly more rewarding than defending a fort, especially if you don’t have the organisation to hold/upgrade all four forts or complete the Breach. Players don’t care about the Breach because it’s harder to pull off (risky) and the reward isn’t competitive with the guarantee ease of running around opening chests.
• Amber fort has significantly more chests than the other three forts, all in an easy to farm/see/access open area. See this map (http://i.imgur.com/13LzAjs.png) from fictitiousacct’s reddit thread (http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/2lrdqo/silverwastes_bandit_chest_locations/). This has two effects, it causes many players to stack at Amber fort to farm chests and even worse, it makes players at Blue, Red and Indigo feel like chumps because they are working hard for a map-wide reward (the Breach) and they lose out significantly on chest farms. Amber players can farm chests as much as they like (often failing their fort despite having half the map’s population there) and they still get rewarded with the Breach.
• The magic find buff is too easy to max and maintain even while ignoring the general defence events.
• The shovel is supposed to limit chest farms with their limited supply (good) but this ended up encouraging everyone to stack at one place (the more players, the more shovels) which hurts the other three forts (and players playing their – opportunity loss for them).

These are my thoughts on tweeks that could be made to harmonise the goals of players so they don’t compete with each other as much and to encourage them to work together to complete the events for the best rewards:

• Reduce the Bandit Crest amount in the chests. I like the idea that I’m never starved for crests even if I want to open chests (opening chests doesn’t compete with my desire to save crests for armour skins etc) but I think it’s problematic that I can nearly endlessly chain a large number of chests while putting in minimal effort into defence events (and even gain Bandit Crests while doing so).
• Redistribute the chests so that there isn’t such a large cluster of chests at Amber and few at other forts (also consider how easy it is to see and access all the Amber chest nodes compared to other forts).
• Change the magic find buff so that it is either tied to fort upgrade level or the number of forts held. Casually completing events gives the max buff too easily and no effort is exerted to maintain it. If players are encouraged to help out with the event and maintain the forts, the buff tiers become meaningful. Adjust it so that new players on the map need to participate to get the buff (maybe award individuals a new tier for every successful defence of a fort, don’t allow them to tag each fort with a single mob to get tiers quickly).
• Increase the rewards of a successful Breach. Obviously this content isn’t complete yet (the three lanes at the far end of the map will likely lead to the next phase of the event after the next patch is released) but currently the Breach just doesn’t compete with Bandit Chests, especially if you don’t succeed at all four breaches. If a nerf is made to chest farm viability it might not hurt to increase the rewards of the breach.
• Don’t allow chests to spawn near forts during active defence events. There are parts of the map which have no forts and chests. There is plenty of time to farm chests between defence events.
• Award shovels and keys after a fort defence based on the lowest upgraded fort on the map. If Amber is tier 4 but the other three are tier two, you get a tier 2 reward. Everyone can’t stack Indigo for easy rewards and players are encouraged to spread out.
• Don’t allow tagging of multiple defence events to obtain multiple rewards. Put a cooldown on defence rewards so I am not given incentive to tag a couple mobs at each fort for the best reward assuming others on the map will commit to holding the forts for me.

I’m conflicted about tieing the map’s rewards to organised efforts as many of my suggestions would do. One of the things I love about this map compared to past content like this is how casually you can participate while still getting good rewards. I actually think the map would lose some appeal if there is too much incentive to be on a super-organised map (kinda how Dry Top is almost universally never making it to the final tier while Silverwastes always eventually makes it to the final tier, it just takes longer sometimes). Currently I think the map has poor rewards balance but I’m not sure it’s a better situation to force map organisation (and inevitable “this map sucks, I’m leaving”) for it to be a fun place to be.

I’ve got 2 ideas on how to fix this (I read through the post quickly and didn’t see it already mentioned, but sorry if it already is).

First option: make the chests personal items (other players can’t see/open your chest) and either give the shovel charges or give it a chance to break with each use (maybe an increasing chance – start at 5%, and double the chance every use)

Second option: make the chests only available in the cooldown period after the breach.

edit: also, wanted to say thanks to ArenaNet for giving us another source of dragonite (obi shards too, but mostly dragonite). As long as they don’t remove the dragonite drops, I’m happy – no more boring world bosses for me (there are a few fun ones, but most are afk AA fests)

I actually really like that chests are a group activity. I like that you can band together with guildies, friends or pugs and start treasure hunting together. It’s one of the core features of GW2 and the chest farm is a nice evolution of that. Ideally I’d like the chest treasure hunt to become a group activity that is equal at all four forts and something that is done after defence events. I’d like to see design shift towards that rather than nerfing the shovel to become a single player mechanic.

I think it becomes problematic atm because Amber has the highest concentration of chests and because of that imbalance everyone stacks there. If all four forts had a nice balance of chests, the chest farm could become a nice group activity for the forts to do in between defence events. There wouldn’t be a strong incentive to move to one fort another if they all had a comparable number of chest spawns.

I actually suggested your second option in my second post.

Remove the chest and the reward/risk ratio will drop to zero. Champ bags were nerfed already, balance and scaling are poor implemented. Farmers will go back to mites. Silk and t6 mats prices will rise again.

Hmm….how about no? Instead of trying to nerf the one really good thing, how about you make everything else in the area worth the time?

Rainmaker.7594:

I’ve got 2 ideas on how to fix this (I read through the post quickly and didn’t see it already mentioned, but sorry if it already is).

First option: make the chests personal items (other players can’t see/open your chest) and either give the shovel charges or give it a chance to break with each use (maybe an increasing chance – start at 5%, and double the chance every use)

Have you used a shovel?
They already have a chance to break for both skills. Every shovel I’ve used(around 20ish) broke after the first use.

A way to buff up the Breach reward:

When the Breach event triggers, a baseline reward is determined based on the following factors:
- Number of Fortresses held
- Defence level of each fortress.
- Supply level of each fortress.

This baseline reward when the Breach triggers is awarded if the Breach fails at 0/5 or 1/5. The baseline reward is further increased by the number of bosses killed, maxing out at 5/5.

Example of how this would work:
Each fortress has a “reward value” based on multiplying the Defence and Supply level, for instance. A fortress with Defence level 2 and supply level 2 will have a reward value of 4. At the end of Foothold event, the reward values for each fortress is tallied up, determining the baseline reward value. 2/5 bosses would double the reward, 3/5 bosses would triple the reward, 4/5 would quadruple, you get the picture.

Suppose we have all 4 fortresses at Defence level 1 and supply level 1. That would only give a reward value of 4 going into the breach, which can be multiplied up to 20. If all fortresses were at Defence level 3, that would be a reward value of 12, multiplied up to 60 if all 5 bosses are killed. If all 4 Forts are at Defence level 3 AND supply level 3, the baseline value would be 36, up to a total of 180 if the Breach succeeds at 5/5.

The values are simply arbitrary to illustrate that all of these factors should increase the final reward you get from the Breach. A reward value of 180 should give you a lot more loot than a reward value of 20. This can be in the form of more rare bags of gear (but obviously not proportionally more, don’t want to flood the game with too many rares), more varied rare loot, chances at exotics, maybe even Ascended gear boxes, Champ bags, etc.

Just a thought.

Edit: To prevent “screw this, rewards suck unless in organized map”, the rewards would need to be great for maps that can reach: 4/4 Forts held at Defence level 3, 4/4 Forts at Supply level 2-3. These are easily attainable even on a disorganized map – the supply level of Amber and Blue can easily reach level 2, and a really good map can push both to level 3 with dedicated supply escort teams. Both Indigo and Red Rock can reach supply level 5 with minimal effort.

The reward level for getting 4/4 at Defence level 3 AND Supply level 3+ should be a fair amount better because it takes a lot more coordination to ensure that many supply escorts succeed before the Breach occurs.

Simply halve the crests given out by chests. That would force farmers to participate in events because otherwise you will run out of keys.

And, yes, thinning out the chest locations around amber would be reasonable, too.

It’s also because the chests are on a specific place. Make them more random, all over the map, and people stop camping spots?
But the shovels and the keys/chest are pretty good addition to the game I think.

I really don’t see the problem, the main rewards from chests are silk, t6, shards , ascended materials and cores. The amount of gold generated is minimal. From that perspective active farmers and players not participating all will benefit. Only people playing the TP might lose some value, that is a big question though.

Achievement hunting is always more efficient when the content is fresh and people are actively looking for the achievements. The first day people left forts to grind AP , I did not notice one post worrying how the map should be played. In case of silver wastes its even more of a non issue you can defend a fortress and kill the champ with 5 players. Personally I got silver and gold , copper husk , and the troll on a shovel farm map. Go with 5 friends,guildies or interested players problem solved.

Older content does not get played , again it’s natural , everybody wants to play new content. Finally if you want to enjoy the meta events join the organized maps.

So let’s say we nerf rewards, players will go to the next best alternatives. Meaning daily dungeons , boring world bosses and upscaling orrian events. Prices will go up , the zone will be desolated in a week and the mordrem champions will still give bad rewards.

Obviously with next episodes rewards and content will expand, I think the meta event will and should play a bigger role from that point onwards. Additionally it’s no coincident chests drop so many cores, silk and tier 6.

I will agree rewards are usually not balanced though and is a repetitive and structural problem of the game though.

Claudius.5381:

Simply halve the crests given out by chests. That would force farmers to participate in events because otherwise you will run out of keys.

And, yes, thinning out the chest locations around amber would be reasonable, too.

I joined a chest farming map just to see what it’s like.. and the farmers WERE participating in the events. The keeps were defended and the rubble event often wasn’t happening at Amber because the keep was so well defended. Even one time a full clear of the bosses in the Breach happened.

In any case, the farmers do need to participate in the events if they want to get shovels.

IMO, this map shows the problem http://i.imgur.com/13LzAjs.png.

My comments on the “issue”

1) the number of chests in the map is fine.
2) the shovel/key mechanic is fine as implemented.

To me, the only thing that should happen is that chests spawn randomly as opposed to in set locations.

HOWEVER, we dont know what lies west of this area, how it is accessed, what rewards might be there, etc, etc. As such, my comments are only as if this area is all it will ever be, which it is not.

This area is set up in the style of WvW. Its a back and forth battle rather than parades of mobs like in Orr. Before we go and call this a problem that need be fixed, we need to see what ANet has planned for the western portion of this map beyond the vines. It may be possible that, while you wont get the same number of champ bags and various mats from the rest of SW, there will be more unique rewards that come from pushing the current area’s mechanics to completion rather than farming chests. I did a chest farm for a while yesterday and didnt hit a breach. In otherwords, the map wasnt completing. With the release of the rest of the area, non-breaching/chest farm maps may actually be worse off when it comes to some unique, cool rewards that may be account bound rather than purchasable. Only time will tell.

Nilkemia.8507:

Hmm….how about no? Instead of trying to nerf the one really good thing, how about you make everything else in the area worth the time?

No. The rewards are greater than most other farms to date and this includes the exploitable ones. This should be reduced and yes, I’ve been doing this too.

The loot is fine, it balances the lack of mob loot especially champions.

Lothirieth.3408:

Claudius.5381:

Simply halve the crests given out by chests. That would force farmers to participate in events because otherwise you will run out of keys.

And, yes, thinning out the chest locations around amber would be reasonable, too.

I joined a chest farming map just to see what it’s like.. and the farmers WERE participating in the events. The keeps were defended and the rubble event often wasn’t happening at Amber because the keep was so well defended. Even one time a full clear of the bosses in the Breach happened.

In any case, the farmers do need to participate in the events if they want to get shovels.

I agree…Anet did a great job with Silverwastes, I don’t want them to change a thing. I see the farmers doing the events, I don’t know what OP is talking about. Like you said, they do the events and get the shovels for the chest.

I disagree, I feel it would be best just to put an equal amount of chests at each fort (similar to what amber has currently) this farm doesn’t generate a lot of money, but it does generate a lot of materials which are all helping by causing a bit of deflation? (opposite of inflation) it has achieved this by making many of the more desirable materials more available by increasing their supply by a significant amount. For example look at silk it has dropped about 40% in price since the update, this was the majority cost material in creating ascended armor.

Look at the price of T6 blood in the last year it had over doubled from around 30 silver each to at their peak before this update being worth nearly 80 silver, since the update the price has dropped into the mid 60 silver range. http://www.gw2spidy.com/item/24295 Something really had to be done about this over 100% inflation per year is ridiculous, that kind of inflation can really turn off new or returning players as the wall to purchase new things, making it feel hopeless or out of reach especially in regards to things like legendaries.

But in conclusion I think this farm is beneficial and should be kept around as it is really a farm for materials rather than gold, once the mats produced by this farm have reach an equilibrium, the rewards will probably be similar to many other areas of the game (ex dungeons).

Infamous Darkness.3284:

But in conclusion I think this farm is beneficial and should be kept around as it is really a farm for materials rather than gold, once the mats produced by this farm have reach an equilibrium, the rewards will probably be similar to many other areas of the game (ex dungeons).

This is true. People farming this area for gold will cause the farm to become less profitable over time reducing the amount of farming being done. That said, I stand by my previous post: we shouldnt call it broken or even imbalanced until the full mechanic of the area has been released (aside from the simple concentration of chests by amber while, for example, there are NO chests in front of Blue).

But, again, this is my perspective of simple design….I am participating and enjoying the farm. But I only am doing that after participating in and completing ALL the event achievements.

The only real problem is that there usually aren’t enough people at the other fortresses to complete the map. Evenly distribute the chests and problem solved.

Aedelric.1287:

The loot is fine, it balances the lack of mob loot especially champions.

So the people who are actually defending the forts shouldn’t get mob loot, but the people farming chests and causing the fort defense events to scale up should get all the loot?

I can’t think of a worse way to distribute loot.

I do think that the chest loot should be based heavily on the status of the forts in order to promote cohesion. We’ve currently got different maps with different goals. With a few tweaks you could have all the maps having the same ultimate goal (succeeding in defending the forts and supply lines) with everyone getting what they wanted out of it.

I spend a few hours Bandit Chest farming and from the chest I get Empy fragments, Dragonite Ore and Bloodstone and emblazoned bags. Occasionally I get a Twister in a Jar or other exotic. Out of 100 keys I used, I got one generic exotic staff, 2 Arc, and 14 Twisters.
I’m not getting rich on Bandit Chests… and I do the events. Nobody gets Blue or Red to the point of Breech when I was playing.

One Prarie Outpost.4860:

I spend a few hours Bandit Chest farming and from the chest I get Empy fragments, Dragonite Ore and Bloodstone and emblazoned bags. Occasionally I get a Twister in a Jar or other exotic. Out of 100 keys I used, I got one generic exotic staff, 2 Arc, and 14 Twisters.
I’m not getting rich on Bandit Chests… and I do the events. Nobody gets Blue or Red to the point of Breech when I was playing.

There’s a lot more that you’re not thinking of. You can throw the twisters into the forge for other exotics. You can salvage weapons and armor for crafting mats. Not to mention all of the tier 5/6 fine mats.

Ayrilana.1396:

One Prarie Outpost.4860:

I spend a few hours Bandit Chest farming and from the chest I get Empy fragments, Dragonite Ore and Bloodstone and emblazoned bags. Occasionally I get a Twister in a Jar or other exotic. Out of 100 keys I used, I got one generic exotic staff, 2 Arc, and 14 Twisters.
I’m not getting rich on Bandit Chests… and I do the events. Nobody gets Blue or Red to the point of Breech when I was playing.

There’s a lot more that you’re not thinking of. You can throw the twisters into the forge for other exotics. You can salvage weapons and armor for crafting mats. Not to mention all of the tier 5/6 fine mats.

Yeah … throw in 4 twisters and get back an item with a value equal to two twisters.

Khisanth.2948:

Yeah … throw in 4 twisters and get back an item with a value equal to two twisters.

I’m wondering how deep the MF drop table is for exotic amulets, rings, and accessories. I’m going to attempt to see if valuable items (like the Treasure Hunter collectibles) are included and if so at what drop rate.

I wouldn’t want to see chests become personalized. But I’d agree that the current distribution of chests on the map encourages folks toward Amber which isn’t good. I’d suggest:

1. Redistribute the chest spots to either make them random, or else make them equally distributed in front of all forts and not just Amber

2. Possibly consider making map chest density on the map be dynamic based on forts held – if few forts are held by the Pact, fewer chests are available and shovels won’t reveal anything if the few chests available have already been dug up (allow a shovel to be re-stowed if not used). However if more forts are held, then more chests will show up on the map.

Looks like today’s patch notes are regarding this topic:

“Fixed a bug in which Lost Bandit Chests near Amber Sandfall spawned too fast and too numerously.”

apparently if you are hardcore there are lots of people that want a harder game. I got done with the achieves and story achieves within a week got bored and went on to do something else on other maps. If you love to farm and grind the same thing over n over silverwastes was a fun thing to do, but after a week of it , it got boring, like all other content as usual.

However if you are casual they way it was , was perfect.

imo. if you think it was too easy don’t play the content. turn off the computer and go outside.