Guild Wars 2

OnlyFate.8549:

Do you gain more reward if you finish it faster?

You know the saying? Time is money. The saved time is spend outside earning concrete gold coins :p

stof.9341:

OnlyFate.8549:

Do you gain more reward if you finish it faster?

You know the saying? Time is money. The saved time is spend outside earning concrete gold coins :p

First, you have to spend gold or IRL money to purchase IC, so it doesn’t “save time” in this manner, at least not for farming. Seconds, you agree, that this is just save time and don’t immediately “win” the SAB?..

P2W is not about wining, it’s about convenience. Only the very worse games made it a requirement for wining.

The question is, how much convenience is ok and how much becomes P2W?

I bought the Infinite Coin just before I started Tribulation mode. I had already read online that it’s trial and error and being in exam season I sure as hell would not spend time on farming Continue Coins. I just used 30 gold which I had no other use for atm.

stof.9341:

OnlyFate.8549:

Do you gain more reward if you finish it faster?

You know the saying? Time is money. The saved time is spend outside earning concrete gold coins :p

I agree with you, that’s why the infinite coin costs a lot. In my opinion, its fair for players to spend gold coin for earning time. If you consider that as P2W, people should complain when the game launch as the game also got a feature for trade gem to gold, why don’t people say that is P2W.

I beat 1-1 with 10 coins on trib. Got over 250 baubles (5 coins worth) 2 bauble baubles, and a continue coin. Almost even if you ask me.

Raesin.2908:

It’s P2W because it does give you an advantage over other players.
ANet said Trib mode would be so ‘hard’ that they didn’t expect many people to have the Trib mode skins.
With the Infinite Coin you’re pretty much guaranteed those items, all you have to do is follow a guide and no matter how many times you fail you can just try again.
It’s giving you infinite lives, much like any cheat code in any other game that gives you infinite lives.
With this coin ANet have essentially taken the challenge out of Trib mode.

The people insisting it’s not P2W are probably those who have bought it and don’t like the fact that their ‘method’ of getting the achievements or skins is considered cheap or cheating. It’s may be a small-scale P2W, it’s not exactly selling ‘Epic Uber Sword of Smiting +99’ but it’s still P2W.

Have you been in Trib mode yet? If not, you really have nothing to say for it. Someone who “sucks” at jumping can have 1million attempts at it and still fail. That’s all the Infinite Coin is: attempts to TRY to complete the content.

W1-Z1, just after the 2nd hard checkpoint is an example of what I mean. That location is a gully with ‘bounce rocks’, 4 spike traps, and two timid monkeys. There are a series of 7 required back-to-back consecutive jumps that have to be perfectly synced and timed without error.

In fact, most of the Trib mode requires precision jumping, attention to the minor details, and skill. I don’t care what delusions people have about the Infinite Coin, but it’s just extra lives in something that someone who has no skill at precision jumping or details will not complete. No matter if they have 1,000 Infinite Coins, it’s still a CHANCE!

Paying to win is about using a cash shop to give yourself an advantage over other players. Guild Wars 2’s payment model revolves around giving players customization or convience options, but does not give them an advantage over other players. You’re basically paying with either your time or your money, for all the stuff in there. The infinite coin doesn’t do anything differently than any other continue coins except save you the time of having to go out and get more. If the coin, say, also let you see where all the baubles were on the map, or made you immune to damage after using the coin for a minute, then it’d be pay to win. It’s NOT P2W.

It’s pay to win as hell. Especially for people who don’t have time to grind continue coins. With the P2W coin you can just bang your keyboard against the wall for several hours and be guaranteed a win, even in TM.

Some of you need to try a Korean MMO to learn what P2W really means.

Siphaed.9235:

I converted 30g, completely earned in-game through the Scarlet Invasions (normal play and NOT FAIL FARMING), to Gems and purchased the Infinite Continue Coin. Not a single dollar shed from my pocket, yet I was still able to obtain this “Pay 2 Win” item. Curious how, if it’s truly “P2W” that it’s obtainable in-game?

P.S. Didn’t use it at all until I started Tribulation mode as the 5 coins Moto sent me -in addition to the 7 banked ones from April- were more than sufficient to do W1 & W2 in Normal mode.

You’re right, you can buy gems with gold.

Maybe ascended armour won’t be crafted, but only on the gem store- after all, it’s not p2w unless it’s completely impossible to get outside of paying money.

I guess this means there’s no such thing as a pay to win game, period, after all most games allow you to sell currency in game for their ‘gems’, and even those that don’t- just use a gold selling site to turn your in game currency into money, and that money to buy the bonuses.

Pay to win can now no longer be used to describe any game ever, because no matter how time consuming it is, technically there’s always a way to get that item without paying money.

Adamantium.3682:

Some of you need to try a Korean MMO to learn what P2W really means.

Like an mmo backed by NCSoft you mean? Wonder where we’d find one of those.

fungihoujo.8476:

Adamantium.3682:

Some of you need to try a Korean MMO to learn what P2W really means.

Like an mmo backed by NCSoft you mean? Wonder where we’d find one of those.

What’s the point of this besides trying to be clever? You really think GW2 is anything like a Korean MMO?

Adamantium.3682:

fungihoujo.8476:

Adamantium.3682:

Some of you need to try a Korean MMO to learn what P2W really means.

Like an mmo backed by NCSoft you mean? Wonder where we’d find one of those.

What’s the point of this besides trying to be clever? You really think GW2 is anything like a Korean MMO?

You must, otherwise you’re constantly bringing up something completely irrelevant to the vast majority of the playerbase who have completely different expectations of a game than they do in Korea.

You people are presenting a fallacy, that because this game prioritizes achievement points as its endgame instead of raiding and thus stats- that something that gives you a great boost to getting achievement points quickly, by taking away hours of grinding for example, is not the same as something that allows you to remove hours of grinding for gear in a raid based game.

Is the grind more pronounced in K-MMORPGs and is it more of a time saver to buy things? Yes- because that’s how their games are. But what you people are trying to argue is because it’s only slightly pay to win- and Korean mmos are extremely pay to win- it doesn’t count as pay to win at all. That’s a fairly stupid argument though, that’d be like saying; breaking someone’s nose isn’t violence because breaking someone’s legs is far worse.

I’m not arguing it’s “slightly pay-to-win” at all, that would be stupid. There is no difference between “slightly P2W” and “P2W”. I agree with you there. I don’t think it’s pay-to-win at all.

With ICC: Unlimited lives, no need to go find more continue coins when you die.
Without ICC: Go find more continue coins when you die.

There is no advantage inside of SAB other than the speed at which you complete it. If that is considered P2W then I think it’s impossible to come up with a cash shop that isn’t. My definition of a good cash shop is one that only supplies convenience (see: GW2) and not advantage (see: LOTRO).

Once you start defining convenience as advantage you open a can of worms that allows pretty much nothing to be sold in the gem store.

Adamantium.3682:

I’m not arguing it’s “slightly pay-to-win” at all, that would be stupid. There is no difference between “slightly P2W” and “P2W”. I agree with you there. I don’t think it’s pay-to-win at all.

With ICC: Unlimited lives, no need to go find more continue coins when you die.
Without ICC: Go find more continue coins when you die.

There is no advantage inside of SAB other than the speed at which you complete it. If that is considered P2W then I think it’s impossible to come up with a cash shop that isn’t. My definition of a good cash shop is one that only supplies convenience (see: GW2) and not advantage (see: LOTRO).

Once you start defining convenience as advantage you open a can of worms that allows pretty much nothing to be sold in the gem store.

Because there’s a vast difference between buying a infinite mining pick that saves you a few seconds to buy a tool and a couple silver- and a coin that saves you dozens of hours of farming.

Instant stores, bankers, etc… just save you a few moments it would take to port there and a couple silver- but while people may minimize the time it takes to get coins- if it were so minimal why are all the same people saying they bought the ICC? It’s a 30g+ valued coin, an amount of gold that would take your average player just as many hours to farm, if not more- so for so many people to consider it worth more than that should be enough to speak of its value.

I’ve not yet seen a TM video, or heard someone on the forum say they’ve beat TM- who didn’t also say they had the ICC. What other item on the gem store do you see that correlation? Most of it is mild convenience (literally, saving a minute or two every once and a while).

And that it coincided with such a vast reduction in your ability to farm baubles, and in the number of lives you have from 5 to 1- it really shouldn’t be hard to see that they allowed their greed for selling this ICC to dictate how they would put out SAB.

And as someone who has played Mega Man 2, Ninja Gaiden, Zelda II, Super Mario 2, etc… games that Josh has been saying SAB is based off of- if you tried to tell me that a player being given infinite lives for those games would have no advantage over someone who had only 1 extra man (plus whatever they found in game), I would consider that person to be someone who has never played any of them.

First off, dozens of hours is a bit extreme.

Second, you nailed it: people would farm (for not that long) to get 30g in the first place to buy the ICC. This isn’t even limited to a cash only item. Now we’re just splitting hairs between farming for the 30g to buy the ICC, or farming for the regular continue coins. I don’t really see a difference.

Like someone else said you can farm TONS of baubles without stepping foot into a tribulation mode. Turn those into continue coins. Then do tribulation mode. When you beat it, you get reimbursed if not better for those continue coins you used during the run. That didn’t even take 1 dozen hours, let alone dozens.

People are making the ICC out as a requirement, it’s not. Many people bought it simply to support Anet and future SAB development. Others bought it because they had 30g available.

Saying you haven’t heard of anyone do TM without the ICC and correlating that to all players as being a requirement… well that’s more than a bit misleading. Players that use the forums are the vast minority. Those who put up videos even less so. I am willing to bet that a ton of people have done TM just fine without an ICC.

I just did SAB Tribulation mode with guildies that WITHOUT ICC. They simply prepared about 50-70 coins and we finished W1Z3 with around 30 coins per person. That not really hard and proved ICC is not a must.

Bloody hell, this thread. “Pay-to-win” does not literally only mean “give money, get gear, win game”. It can, but that’s not the only meaning. In contrast with purely cosmetic items, such as finishers, or clothing skins, or dance moves, pay-to-win items are any items that can bought with real-world money and give an in-game advantage to buyers that non-buyers cannot have. Things such as drop rate boosters, experience boosters, and gold boosters are the usual suspects in P2W MMOs (and while the former two exist in GW2, they last for such a short time they don’t cause the damage they can in other MMOs, some times lasting days, weeks, or in rare cases, a month long).

One thing that all three of my examples share in common is that they cut down on time spent grinding, and the fact is, for someone who uses continue coins regularly, I would wager that this coin cuts down on more time spent grinding than any other item in the gem shop.

Saharan.4739:

I would wager that this coin cuts down on more time spent grinding than any other item in the gem shop.

It’s only a pay-to-win item if you’re unable to kitten the proper difficulty mode that you should be playing. If you can’t handle tribulation mode, don’t waste all your continue coins on it.

I constantly have 750 baubles and don’t know what to do with them. Btw I’m only playing tribulation mode.

Saharan.4739:

Bloody hell, this thread. “Pay-to-win” does not literally only mean “give money, get gear, win game”. It can, but that’s not the only meaning. In contrast with purely cosmetic items, such as finishers, or clothing skins, or dance moves, pay-to-win items are any items that can bought with real-world money and give an in-game advantage to buyers that non-buyers cannot have. Things such as drop rate boosters, experience boosters, and gold boosters are the usual suspects in P2W MMOs (and while the former two exist in GW2, they last for such a short time they don’t cause the damage they can in other MMOs, some times lasting days, weeks, or in rare cases, a month long).

One thing that all three of my examples share in common is that they cut down on time spent grinding, and the fact is, for someone who uses continue coins regularly, I would wager that this coin cuts down on more time spent grinding than any other item in the gem shop.

Tell me the difference between grinding bauble for coin and grinding gold for ICC. Anet allows players to choose the way they want and provide extra option for the way they play. If Anet does not allow exchange gold to gem, I will call this P2W. But all of us can use that feature and 30 gold is not really that much (just 2-3 days doing events and dungeon). I have no idea about why players keep thinking this item is taking the fun away.

Stop complaining!. There is NO PAY TO WIN in this game! Convert your 30g for this coin and stop QQ on forum. Its boring…

When I spend gold buying a different set of gear for one of my characters so that it will not die so frequently and it will kill things faster, it is alright.
When I spend gold converting it into gems and buying the ICC so that my SAB runs will be faster, it is P2W.

Quite frankly, I can’t see how ANYTHING can ever be considered pay to win in a game with gold→cash conversion. Everything in the store is sold for gold, you just have to convert it first. If paying with real life cash was the only way or if 30g was terribly hard to get in the game, then alright, I could somehow agree with the people that say that this is P2W.

And we kinda made a lot of gold during the last event, and as I said already that gold can be converted to gems so that you can buy the ICC. I’ve got 3 times more money that I had ever had in the game just by getting all the achievements for Scarlet’s Invasions. I can’t imagine how much gold the farmers got.

I don’t know how anyone could even think that a useless item like the Infinite Continue Coin could be considered pay to win. You can run world 1 in 10 minutes which will give you 7 bubble baubles. You can then turn those 7 bubble baubles into 35 Continue Coins which is 175 lives.

No it’s not pay to win. It’s pure convenience. It doesn’t give you more HP, it doesn’t give you harder hitting weapons, it doesn’t make you run faster. It simply reduces the amount of time you would need to spend farming.

Also for someone like me, it makes SAB fun to play with friends, as opposed to incredibly annoying.

aspirine.6852:

It’s pay to win , come on. How can you even disagree with this? If you compare it to normal coins you still have to get out of sab and farm them someone. And with the continue you can do it 24/7. Pretty much a win imo.
But because it’s a minigame and not gw itself I don’t mind this gemstore item one bit. Or 8 bits

you know you can hub out at any time when you have 0 lives and get another one right? The continue coins are there for when you make mistakes. By no means is it pay to win. By that logic exp boosts are pay to win as well

You get infinite lives without the coin. If you get down to 00 lives, leave the zone and come back. BAM! You now have 01 lives. Proceed to not die.

Barabbas.8715:

It’s pay to win as hell. Especially for people who don’t have time to grind continue coins. With the P2W coin you can just bang your keyboard against the wall for several hours and be guaranteed a win, even in TM.

I tested out your theory. I bought Infinite coin and tried to complete W1 Z1 by running towards the checkpoint like normal. Weirdest thing…it didn’t highlight the path I was supposed to run, show me where the traps were, make me invincible to damage, or port me to the boss!!?? WTF I THOUGHT THIS WAS P2W!! Why do I still have to actually try to beat the content?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!11!?!/!/1/1/1/

FOR THE RECORD: I completed W1 Z1, Z2, and Z3 without the Infinite Coin on TM by following guides. In fact, I only needed to use 4 continue coins to complete all of it.

Saying it is P2W is the lamest excuse for not wanting to put effort into something I’ve ever heard. Just because you can’t complete something without the Infinite Coin doesn’t mean others can’t. The Infinite Coin gives you the ability to try things in TM so you can figure it out on your own (if you want to IE optional). If you can’t afford the Infinite Coin (lol ~$7), then look up guides online and follow them exactly. Case closed. It isn’t P2W if you can win without it… I’ve seen videos where people finish TM without dying once. How does that make you feel?

Draknar.5748:

Saying it is P2W is the lamest excuse for not wanting to put effort into something I’ve ever heard. Just because you can’t complete something without the Infinite Coin doesn’t mean others can’t. The Infinite Coin gives you the ability to try things in TM so you can figure it out on your own (if you want to IE optional). If you can’t afford the Infinite Coin (lol ~$7), then look up guides online and follow them exactly. Case closed. It isn’t P2W if you can win without it… I’ve seen videos where people finish TM without dying once. How does that make you feel?

Well OK. There are people who can beat TM without single death. I can believe that. Same as I can believe that there is guy who can run 100 metres in 9.58 seconds. Can you run 100 metres in that time? No? Why? Consider this. There are people who can beat TM without single death. True. There are also people who would not be able to complete TM without the aid of Infinite Coin. Now they bought the coin and they completed it. In their case, was the coin a P2W or not?

No.

/15 char

I bought it to add to my collection of end game items.

Ayrilana.1396:

No.

/15 char

Yes.

/15 char

We are even.

:)

I said no because it gives you no advantage over other players. Continue coins are easy to get by just running through world 1. Between the bauble bubbles, baubles, and continue coins from the chests, you should have close to 230 lives. That’s more than enough to do a zone in TM. You have 30 days to do this which means you have about 6,900 lives. With video guides, surely anyone can do this now.

An example of a P2W item would be if ascended items were only available from the gem store. The infinite continue coin offers no benefit to the player. TM only offers tokens for skins (and more baubles).

I agree with the OP.

PS Sometimes I wish these forums were pay-to-whine. Anet would make so much money.

EnemyCrusher.7324:

I agree with the OP.

PS Sometimes I wish these forums were pay-to-whine. Anet would make so much money.

100 Gems per post? Or would you suggest a “per word” fee?

For those who seem confused, a pay to win situation would be this: if for example, instead of farming your ascended gear you could ONLY buy it from the cash shop with a large amount of cash. Free MMO’s (free purchase and no monthly subscription) usually rely on this; any kind of high lvl gear is basically obtained via cash. Think exotics too.

As for the coin. I bought it as well, using the gold I already farmed. Rather than spending my time farming coins, I’d spend it farming gold, if it’s about farming. This coin will prove very useful in the future as well, considering this isn’t the last of SAB. Without the infinite coin there’d be no Tribulation guides for the rest of us. It would take an insane amount of coins and time (to farm the normal coins as well) to discover the way around and it would be very frustrating. Personally, I would go insane.

pay to win?
i bought the coin as soon as i tested w2 sab.
bought it for many good reason. most important of all is, sab is one of my fav mini game in gw2. i think the team has done a great job tht worth 600gem from me. i still hv to complete TM w2-z2&3. will try my best to get it done altho some jumps are relatively challenging due to latency n lagging issues as oceanic player. :p but if i dont get to complete it, it is ok too bcos i had a lot of fun already! :p

Pay to win? Hell no.

This Coin doesn’t win TM for you. You still have to memorize the traps and also need enough skill for the Jumps, especially in World 2 Zone 2 and 3 ( Hello ice ).

What the Coin does: Save some time for farming but come one10 to 15 Minutes are more then enough to gain nearly 200 Lives. And if you could’t afford 15 minutes for 200 Lives you shouldn’t even consider trying TM.

The coin is pay to be lazy. There is nothing wrong with pay to be lazy, in fact, you could argue that it’s the only model that appreciates that players have different situations in real life (see: Wildstar monetary model). If you can’t afford the 15 minutes to farm PvE for coins, chances are that’s because you have a job and therefor you can afford the infinite coin.

And then everything Walhalla said.

It is pay to win. Stop kidding yourselves.

Tribulation mode is similar to a type of game which usually is based around the assumption of the player having infinite lives. By not going that route, ArenaNet made itself prone to attack to some degree.

When you try to buy the infinite coin for gold, it will set you back 20G tops. Compare that to the costs of that other thing they introduced with this patch. What did that costs? 150G+ for leveling and then another 70G for the weapon parts? Compared to that, the infinity coin is a real bargain.

IMO after completing W1 trib two times with normal coins, I think the infinite coin is not worth it.

You can exchange 1 BB for 5 coins. That’s 25 lives.

You can get at least 4 BB by speed rushing W1 normal mode, which can be completed in under 15 minutes.

So every day you can get at least 100 lives.

So unless you plan on doing both W1 and W2 on trib mode in one day, you absolutely do not need the infinite coin.

Avatara.1042:

It is pay to win. Stop kidding yourselves.

If you got any opinion, give us some reason to support it. Without any reason, your statement is only trolling.

Vol said it best. You don’t need the infinite coin to do Trib mode. 1 Bauble Bubble = 25 lives and you can get them pretty easily running W1.

The ones crying P2W haven’t actually tried to do it, they’ve just read the forums and others saying it is P2W, heard their arguments for it, disregarded the opposing viewpoints and then regurgitated it on other forum posts. They already have it in their minds what it is and that’s why their arguments are only “It’s P2W, stop kidding yourselves”. They are just sour, what can you do about that.

When you get down to it, do what you will with your own money, and expect others to do exactly the same. Why would you have feelings about what other people do with their money? It’s not like they beat you up on the playground and took your lunch money to buy the Infi.

I got the Infinite Coin because it’s convenient and I reckon tossing some money ANet’s way would be a nice way of showing how much I like GW2. Haaate SAB, but I take the good with the bad.

Draknar.5748:

They are just sour, what can you do about that.

Show them where they can score some free sweetner at a coffee shop?

You pay, you save yourself time and energy. It is the very definition of pay to win. Stop trying to justify it with ‘oh but you can farm blahblahblah’, when the coin skips all of that.

Avatara.1042:

You pay, you save yourself time and energy. It is the very definition of pay to win. Stop trying to justify it with ‘oh but you can farm blahblahblah’, when the coin skips all of that.

The definition of pay to win is that you “pay to win”, not “pay to save time”. Or you don’t use waypoints and travel on foot, because it’s paying coins for saving time?

Nighthawk.6453:

Avatara.1042:

You pay, you save yourself time and energy. It is the very definition of pay to win. Stop trying to justify it with ‘oh but you can farm blahblahblah’, when the coin skips all of that.

The definition of pay to win is that you “pay to win”, not “pay to save time”. Or you don’t use waypoints and travel on foot, because it’s paying coins for saving time?

Pay to win does not actually mean you pay, then you win…

Avatara.1042:

Nighthawk.6453:

Avatara.1042:

You pay, you save yourself time and energy. It is the very definition of pay to win. Stop trying to justify it with ‘oh but you can farm blahblahblah’, when the coin skips all of that.

The definition of pay to win is that you “pay to win”, not “pay to save time”. Or you don’t use waypoints and travel on foot, because it’s paying coins for saving time?

Pay to win does not actually mean you pay, then you win…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pay_to_win
“…if players that paid for special items subsequently become better at a multiplayer game than those who did not purchase the same items, then it will not be as enjoyable as other games since players who paid more money are more successful than those who simply rely on skill. These games are known as “Pay-to-Win” (often abbreviated P2W) games."
- Players that paid for ICC subsequently become better? No.
- Players that paid money are more successful than those who relay on skill? No.
Conclusion: not P2W.

I remember they used to have pay locks on the bathroom stalls at amusement parks. That actually happened, right? Or is it another one of those "reality" issues I’m having problems with?