Guild Wars 2

Useless in “Most of the game’s content”? Really? Rubbish.

OP is getting a bit polemic. This problem is fairly minor.

Neilos Tyrhanos.5427:

Useless in “Most of the game’s content”? Really? Rubbish.

OP is getting a bit polemic. This problem is fairly minor.

The ‘minor problem’ stated in the original post causes any condition build beyond one to overlap, two people can mitigate more than 50% of each others damage, do you realize how much power DPS players would be whining if the allied player standing next to them had the ability to halve their damage? They’d be having kittens! We’d be seeing stuff like in WoW where groups of players threaten other groups if they try to do overlapping content. And let’s not even get started on how bad it gets in scaled up and meta events.

As for not being a majority of the content, shall we look at what content requires multiple people versus what content does not?

Requires a group

• Group Events
• Nearly every event in Orr (‘group’ or otherwise)
• The newly added invasions
• All Meta Events
• Nearly all champions
• All dungeons
• SPvP
• WvW

Does not require a group

• Heart tasks (available once per heart)
• Non-group events (well… most of them)
• Personal Story

Yeah, that’s not even close to being the majority of the games content.

And next time you want to use words you find ‘interesting’, you should probably look up their meaning first. Polemic is merely a fancy word for tirade or rant. Asking a rhetorical question and then listing perfectly valid (and factually verifiable) complaints against what is essentially a continually unaddressed system error would count as a ‘tirade’ to no sane person.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Player Character.9467:

Why do people keep talking about zerker dps on the boss? You can’t crit tequatl… precision and crit dmg useless so PTV or cleric’s for power builds. Condi builds also shouldn’t be defending the cannons because unless you’re organized and spiking condis on 1 mob then epidemicing it (lol coordination in pug pve zerg?), you aren’t going to take them out fast enough compared to power based dmg spiking.

People keep saying this… It’s like they have never actually fought teq… or I guess they are so zerg minded they just spam 1 and never actually look at their damage.

While it is true that you cannot crit teq during the first part of the fight, once the laser goes off it enables crits to take place. That’s the whole point of the giant laser. That’s why his health goes down very slowly at the beginning but then plummets to 0 when the laser goes off. The laser does no actual damage, it just enables crits.

And guess what? I’m still doing more damage across the whole fight than your puny little Zerker build. So, crit builds are Still USELESS in a world boss fight. Seriously, get off the crits. You guys are just as Useless as Condition builds are right now!

Chrispy.5641:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Player Character.9467:

Why do people keep talking about zerker dps on the boss? You can’t crit tequatl… precision and crit dmg useless so PTV or cleric’s for power builds. Condi builds also shouldn’t be defending the cannons because unless you’re organized and spiking condis on 1 mob then epidemicing it (lol coordination in pug pve zerg?), you aren’t going to take them out fast enough compared to power based dmg spiking.

People keep saying this… It’s like they have never actually fought teq… or I guess they are so zerg minded they just spam 1 and never actually look at their damage.

While it is true that you cannot crit teq during the first part of the fight, once the laser goes off it enables crits to take place. That’s the whole point of the giant laser. That’s why his health goes down very slowly at the beginning but then plummets to 0 when the laser goes off. The laser does no actual damage, it just enables crits.

And guess what? I’m still doing more damage across the whole fight than your puny little Zerker build. So, crit builds are Still USELESS in a world boss fight. Seriously, get off the crits. You guys are just as Useless as Condition builds are right now!

I would love for you to enlighten me on what build does more damage than zerker even without crits. Also i’m a condition build… and I assure you, I am much less useful than a zerker build.

Neilos Tyrhanos.5427:

Useless in “Most of the game’s content”? Really? Rubbish.

OP is getting a bit polemic. This problem is fairly minor.

So i’m useless in every group event… world boss… and dungeon… but that isn’t the majority of the game?

I suppose I can craft as good as a zerker build… yay me?

Don’t Guards/Ele’s do more dam than a Warrior?
Only war’s should do damage stupidity aside.

It’s kinda sad/silly that there’s soo many nice condi builds, and the stacks/non-object damage damage destroys them.

I didn’t read through the thread in it’s entirety and I apologize for that, however, a lot of stuff seemed to be off topic anyway.

25 stacks of any condition being the result of bandwidth limitations etc. I can understand. But what I don’t understand is why Anet don’t just let conditions, whenever there’s 25 stacks present, stack up on damage, thus increasing the present stacks’ damage without introducing bandwidth issues. This would result in all the stacks of the condition to increase equally in damage for the remainder of their duration and be increased every time another stack was applied when at 25 stacks.
This would still allow the 25 stacks to limit the stream of information a case with more than 25 stacks would cause.

If anyone sees flaws with an idea of this type, please do tell I don’t see too many issues with it.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Chrispy.5641:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Player Character.9467:

Why do people keep talking about zerker dps on the boss? You can’t crit tequatl… precision and crit dmg useless so PTV or cleric’s for power builds. Condi builds also shouldn’t be defending the cannons because unless you’re organized and spiking condis on 1 mob then epidemicing it (lol coordination in pug pve zerg?), you aren’t going to take them out fast enough compared to power based dmg spiking.

People keep saying this… It’s like they have never actually fought teq… or I guess they are so zerg minded they just spam 1 and never actually look at their damage.

While it is true that you cannot crit teq during the first part of the fight, once the laser goes off it enables crits to take place. That’s the whole point of the giant laser. That’s why his health goes down very slowly at the beginning but then plummets to 0 when the laser goes off. The laser does no actual damage, it just enables crits.

And guess what? I’m still doing more damage across the whole fight than your puny little Zerker build. So, crit builds are Still USELESS in a world boss fight. Seriously, get off the crits. You guys are just as Useless as Condition builds are right now!

I would love for you to enlighten me on what build does more damage than zerker even without crits. Also i’m a condition build… and I assure you, I am much less useful than a zerker build.

In order for Zerker’s to be doing that much damage, they need all 3 armor stats. Condition builds only need Condition damage. And during most fights with World Bosses, Crit damage doesn’t count for much anyway.

And actually, now that I think about it, Zerker’s are more useless than almost any other gear combo, since they die whenever a boss so much as breaths on them.

So yeah,

• Zerker dead. Can’t do damage. They are probably all the downed people you are stuck reviving during events like Jormag, which cuts into your ability to deal damage and and get parts of the event done too!
• Me alive. Can keep doing Damage all day. Normally I will pop a spirit of Nature, and if it misses the downed guys, well, maybe they should learn what Toughness and Vitality is while I am reviving their sorry kitten.
• Zerker dead. He can’t!
• Me alive. I can!
• Condition Builds are more useful then zerker’s too, because except for one or two gear combos, they have some sort of survivability, and won’t die when something breaths on them.
• So, Zerkers dead. I’m alive. And Condition Build is still killing enemies while the Zerker’s Corpse is stinking up the place, well, until the 25 stacks gets put up, then your kind of standing there yawning, while sitting on the Zerker’s rotting corpse while me everyone else is doing damage.

• In review,….Zerkers are just as Useless, as Condition builds, but with Zerker its a playstyle choice, because they want to see big numbers as fast as possible without understanding what happens when all you can do is make big numbers in the first place.

locoman.1974:

Simple, your build is indeed a condition based DPS, but in that particular fight, because of the way the game handles conditions, you’ll be playing the role of support

Isn’t the bolded part exactly what the people are saying is the problem here?

Chrispy.5641:

Technically, all the Zerkers are useless too, since they do just as much damage to a mega boss as my Soldier build does because you can’t crit them, and depending on how my traits and sigils are set up, My Ranger’s Cleric build does alot more damage to world bosses than a Zerker does because of my pet.

First, if your ranger cleric build does more damage to the boss than a zerker warrior, then that zerker warrior is doing something very, very wrong (like, being dead – but then if you can’t stay alive, then you shouldn’t be bringing a zerker to the event). Second, Zerkers indeed do not use their crit damage in boss fights, but their base damage is still high – as high, or higher, as any other build’s. They may be less useful, but still their dps is at least as high as anyone else’s. Condi builds, on the other hand, lose their main damage source, just because someone else stacked some conditions before them.

What would happen if the boss could receive only 25 melee attacks within one second, and all additional ones just bounced off? Because for condition builds the situation is very similar.

Astralporing.1957:

Chrispy.5641:

Technically, all the Zerkers are useless too, since they do just as much damage to a mega boss as my Soldier build does because you can’t crit them, and depending on how my traits and sigils are set up, My Ranger’s Cleric build does alot more damage to world bosses than a Zerker does because of my pet.

First, if your ranger cleric build does more damage to the boss than a zerker warrior, then that zerker warrior is doing something very, very wrong (like, being dead – but then if you can’t stay alive, then you shouldn’t be bringing a zerker to the event). Second, Zerkers indeed do not use their crit damage in boss fights, but their base damage is still high – as high, or higher, as any other build’s. They may be less useful, but still their dps is at least as high as anyone else’s. Condi builds, on the other hand, lose their main damage source, just because someone else stacked some conditions before them.

What would happen if the boss could receive only 25 melee attacks within one second, and all additional ones just bounced off? Because for condition builds the situation is very similar.

Which is the point I am making. But the Zerker isn’t doing anything wrong if he isn’t doing more damage than my Cleric build. He’s just not geared for power because he likes to see those big critical hits, or has a different Strategy.

Also…MATH!!!!!!! Its going to be Mathmatical!!!!
(using info from wiki, and assuming full exotic gear)

Cleric Total Power : 1614
Zerker Total Power : 1919
Soldier Total Power : 1919

Adding 300 Power from Traits:::
Cleric : 1914
Zerker : 2219
Soldier : 2219

Adding Bonus from Superior Sharpening Stone Tougness::: (if they use it)
Cleric : (916 + 698 = 1614 toughness), 1914 power + 6% of 1614 = 2010.84 power
Zerker : (916 = 916 toughness) 2219 + 6% of 916 = 2273.96 power
Soldier : (916 + 698 = 1614 toughness) 2219 + 6% of 1614 = 2315.84 power

Adding Bonus from Superior Sharpening Stone Vitality::: (if they use it)
Cleric : (916 = 916 Vitality) 2010.84 power + 4% of 916 = 2047.48
Zerker : (916 = 916 Vitality) 2273.96 power + 4% of 916 = 2310.6
Soldier : (916 + 698 = 1614 Vitality) 2315.84 power + 4% of 1614 = 2380.4

Adding 100 power from level 80 food::: (if they use it)
Cleric : 2147.48
Zerker : 2410.6
Soldier : 2480.4

Adding 250 power from Sigil::: (if they use it)
Cleric : 2397.48
Zerker : 2660.6
Soldier : 2730.4

Adding 165 power from Runes ::: (if they use it)
Cleric : 2562.48
Zerker : 2825.6
Soldier : 2895.4

So…What’s the point of all that??? Well If that All Powerful Zerker does not have Power Runes, or Sigil of Bloodlust, or Power Bonus from level 80 food, or the 91 power or so from Sharpening Stone, that is a 606 Power that the Zerker is missing out on, and I almost never see Players using all three (Sigil, Sharpening Stone, Food), normally about half of all players actually use all three. I suspect its because the “Press [Faceroll] Button” if the laziest strategy in this game, and I am not sure about Runes, so lets say 441 power (606 -165)

Well, the maximum possible stat difference between the Cleric and Zerker gear set, assuming Exotic only, is 305. So Guess what? I can end up with alot more power than Zerkers, and when we are fighting Mega bosses that can’t get Crit., I, a Cleric, do More damage than Zerkers. And assuming full buffs and everything, and fighting a boss that can’t be crit, a Soldier will always outdamage a Zerker. Plus, both Soldier, and Cleric have way more survivability than the Zerker, so we can stay up longer, and deal damage longer once you go down after the boss breaths on you.

On the Argument of Zerker Warrior vs. Cleric Ranger, I can’t say too much without factoring in the damage, power, etc. that my pet does (lets assume Jaguar), and that would take up a whole post just doing the math for that, so lets just assume that the classes are the same….A Warrior in Soldier’s gear can and will outdamage all Zerkers when it comes to non-critical damage which is all that matters when fighting world bosses. A Ranger in Soldier’s Gear will outdamage a Ranger in Zerker gear when in fights where crit damage doesn’t matter.

Math don’t lie, and I am sure that the numbers are slightly different in the game, but they aren’t that far off.

My whole argument before was in response to an uninformed post made earlier arguing over how much more useful Zerker’s are than Conditions, and I made the statement that Zerkers are actually worse than Soldier builds, and my Cleric can outdamage them in many cases, which the math just proved.

so…anyone else? Or can we get this topic back to the discussion about Condition Damage?

…yes i’m sure your soldier’s build can do more damage if I am AFK too, or playing another game, but none of that has to do with much of anything. When comparing potential of builds they need to be on equal footing, same gear, same buffs, same traits. In full buffs soldier will do a slight amount of damage more, but that will almost instantaneously be overtaken when crits are enabled on the fight, and then zerkers will vastly outpace all other specs.

Plus you CAN CRIT FOR 40% OF THE FIGHT!!!!!

If you are going to keep ignoring this fact then I am done responding to you.

A condition damage build does almost 0 damage to world bosses, our conditions give NO damage since the conditions are all capped by a single player, and our auto attacks do 150-200 dmg against lvl 80 bosses. A single zerker/soldier/cleric auto attack does more damage then I can do in half the fight. This is why condition specs are broken.

I’m certainly not familiar with every online game, but every one I am familiar with does not completely handicap DoT builds in some of the content — except GW2. This may not be ANet’s biggest fail in GW2, but it is a contender.

I’m getting almighty sick and tired of taking a berserker ranger into invasions and using LB1 at max range to get full credit for events and orange champion boxes, while taking a condition engineer in consistently gains bronze or silver credit and white/blue boxes.

Skipping the whining.

This very encounter is a prime way for them to work around the “there can only be so many stacks on the one mob so the condition character is doing less”. You’re not supposed to be hitting one mob. The new Teq has you hitting all kinds of crap for credit in helping to win the event.

Conncept.7638:

Requires a group

• Group Events
• Nearly every event in Orr (‘group’ or otherwise)
• The newly added invasions
• All Meta Events
• Nearly all champions
• All dungeons
• SPvP
• WvW

Does not require a group

• Heart tasks (available once per heart)
• Non-group events (well… most of them)
• Personal Story

You’re a bit off on this list.

Very few champions require a group, Champion Karka and Risen Nobles and a select few others come to mind. Aside from those examples the vast majority of champs in the game are not only soloable, but EASILY so by a wide variety of builds, though every class/build will have a different list of “untouchable” champions, that list is a lot smaller than the list of champions you can successfully solo pretty easily.

For that matter very few group events actually require a group. I don’t know what you’re on about with Orr. Everything but the big meta bosses out there is pretty easily soloable.

I’d say that the things that require a group are generally the things one would expect to require a group, group instances, “boss” level world events/ metas and both forms of PvP.

Though, to be fair, WvW and the sPvP solo que are perfectly soloable without a formal “group” if you just want to drop in and contribute without any formal setup.

Chrispy.5641:

My whole argument before was in response to an uninformed post made earlier arguing over how much more useful Zerker’s are than Conditions, and I made the statement that Zerkers are actually worse than Soldier builds

Against uncrittable bosses that is true

and my Cleric can outdamage them in many cases, which the math just proved.

On the contrary, your math has shown that all other things being equal, Zerker build will outdamage the Cleric.

Which is, agains, besides the point. Against no-crit bosses Zerkers sacrifice their crit damage, but their base damage is still very high. This is not the case with CD builds.

Pennry.9215:

Skipping the whining.

This very encounter is a prime way for them to work around the “there can only be so many stacks on the one mob so the condition character is doing less”. You’re not supposed to be hitting one mob. The new Teq has you hitting all kinds of crap for credit in helping to win the event.

That is a bad path to start walking down.

Condition damage needs to be fixed, I know the devs are working extensively on this game but that doesn’t mean we need to give them a free pass when something is so glaringly broken.

The point of this thread is that they are updating the world boss, but they still haven’t fixed a major issue people have with that boss, an issue that worms itself in every section of this game’s combat content. From WvW to sPvP to dungeons and open world any time you have more than a single condition damage character, they actively reduce each others damage. Not by design, as admitted by the devs but because they haven’t figured out how to fix the engine limitations.

This is just one of the many causes for the homogenization of class specs and gear, especially in the PvE side of this game.

As others have noted this is a GW2 exclusive problem. Many (most) MMOs have Damage over time classes and never have we seen a situation quite like this. It needs to be addressed and not just for Tequatl. Tequatl is just yet another point where this is a major problem.

We don’t need to make excuses for the fight and rationalize the use of condition damage, especially when you are rationalizing this one specific instance. Even if we took your word as the way it should be, it still doesn’t solve every other world boss, every dungeon boss, and every single other combat situation in the game.

Lokki.1092:

We don’t need to make excuses for the fight and rationalize the use of condition damage, especially when you are rationalizing this one specific instance. Even if we took your word as the way it should be, it still doesn’t solve every other world boss, every dungeon boss, and every single other combat situation in the game.

But this is the Tequatl Rising sub forum and the OP specifically complained that the Tequatl fight will still hinder condition damage specs. When, in fact, it doesn’t anymore.

The problem with condition damage specs in the massive world events is that everyone is focusing on one target for credit and capping the stacks asap. Yes, I’ll agree this is an issue, but don’t complain about the one major fight where they’re changing the single-target process.

As for the rest of the game? The only issues is with massive bosses and massive numbers fighting them. “Every other combat situation”? You mean 25 stacks is too little when solo? In PvP? Ha. Maybe in dungeons if you’re just pulling any ole player to run with without even asking about specs.

Pennry.9215:

But this is the Tequatl Rising sub forum and the OP specifically complained that the Tequatl fight will still hinder condition damage specs. When, in fact, it doesn’t anymore.

It does still hinder condition damage specs by your previous post. A work around saying that condition damage specs can only do XYZ but not ABC because they are not direct damage specs is by definition a hindrance. Especially when direct damage specs can do both ABC and XYZ perfectly fine. While this problem goes into every point of the game it is still a problem right here. 1 DPS type deals more damage than the other because of a bug or oversight however you want to put it, the point is that it is not by design.

Reminding Anet that this is still a problem is not a bad thing.

Lokki.1092:

As others have noted this is a GW2 exclusive problem. Many (most) MMOs have Damage over time classes and never have we seen a situation quite like this. It needs to be addressed and not just for Tequatl. Tequatl is just yet another point where this is a major problem.

So, how should it be addressed? Moving away from the people who are unable to read for a second….

I don’t actually see a problem with Burning or Poison right now because both are set up to where the effect with the hghest damage is always applied first, plus, all the condition damage that you apply with those sources will eventually deal damage. Bleeding however, that is a problem.

I can’t see it doing 25 stacks per person because then 50+ players could end up doing 175000+ damage per second, and make every boss encounter way too easy if you just fire off conditions and forget about anything else. I can also see problems with more than 25 Stacks, especially in areas other than World Bosses…

One possible Solution instead of 25 Stacks per person, or going over 25 Stacks,…

Instead, lets treat Bleeding just like how Burning and Poison are treated. The Way Burning Effects Stack is that only the Strongest Stack of Burning does damage until it runs out, then the next Strongest Stack of Burning does damage (I already talked a little about that above).

Well, why not have the 25 Strongest Stacks of Bleeding deal damage, then when that runs out, the next strongest stack of Bleeding will deal, and so on. The Stacks aren’t actually going anywhere, they are just in a standby queue waiting for their turn to deal damage like how burning and poison are set up now.

That way, Bleeding from Non-condition builds isn’t clogging up the bleeding that Condition Builds want, which is a big problem right now. Bleeding also isn’t dealing tens of thousands of damage per second and making boss battles easy.

There are disadvantages to that though, because while all your condition damage is now being counted, it could be a few minutes before you ever see it, especially if you don’t invest that much into condition damage, you might never see your bleeds do any damage at all, but the people with the highest condition damage will see their’s go off, and that’s what’s most important, is that the strongest bleeds are the ones dealing damage, not the weak, junk bleeds. There might also be the same bandwidth issues as the other two solutions have as well, which is why Anet hasn’t gone that route, but, its something.

…

Now that that’s done, lets get these two out of the way….

ZudetGambeous.9573:

snip

Astralporing.1957:

snip

1) I was never just talking about Tequatl, but all non crit bosses, so your argument about Zerkers being able to crit for 40% of Tequatl is a pointless argument.
2) I am not comparing the potential of Builds on any equal footing, since, guess what? Those Zerkers could go full on into Precision, and the Soldiers could go full on into Toughness or Vitality, No Sharpening Stone, No food, no Sigil, and no Runes means that the Cleric is now the build with more power if that is what they choose. So…my point still stands, a Cleric can do more damage than those two builds in some cases. I never said all the time, which you also fail to realize, and have continued to FAIL to realize.
3) Once again, I said this:::

I almost never see Players using all three (Sigil, Sharpening Stone, Food), normally about half of all players actually use all three. I suspect its because the “Press [Faceroll] Button” if the laziest strategy in this game

so guess what? If that Zerker isn’t using buffs, and I am, that makes me stronger in some cases. And Like I said, the Math I did doesn’t lie and proves the point. The Maximum Potential difference in power between the Two classes is that the Zerker can have roughly 1200 more power than the Cleric, but the Cleric can have roughly 650 more power than the Zerker, depending on how the individual builds are built up, whether there is any additional investment into power, or not. And once again, since you failed to read this point before I will say it as clear as possible once again. The Cleric, as well as any other gear set with power as a seconday stat, CAN do more damage than a Berzerker IN SOME CASES (such as against bosses that cannot be Crit), BUT, NOT ALWAYS. Can it be any clearer to you?
4) …Would you like to keep pressing the /rage button? I’m kind of bored right now, and I don’t mind doing this all week if you want.

Chrispy.5641:

The Cleric, as well as any other gear set with power as a seconday stat, CAN do more damage than a Berzerker IN SOME CASES (such as against bosses that cannot be Crit), BUT, NOT ALWAYS. Can it be any clearer to you?

Yes. As i said “unless the zerker is doing something wrong”. Using a useless buff certainly qualifies.

Chrispy.5641:

So, how should it be addressed? Moving away from the people who are unable to read for a second….

Some great ideas here really but you run into the same sort of problems as now.

Firstly poison and burning are problematic. main problem is this. Once you get enough burning in a group, someone is falling off. if there are 2 condition elementalist using drakes breath back to back, no other burning effect will ever tick. They reapply too fast and will deal too much damage always overriding the 3rd person. Again the problem here is that players should never ever negatively effect each others damage just by being involved in the fight which every single condition suffers from.

Secondly condition damage and condition damage builds are on par with Direct damage and direct damage builds. What do I mean by that? Well for example if you have 1 fully condition damage built character and one equally build direct damage built character, their damage range would be within a close distance of one another. Some classes Direct deals slightly more damage and some the reverse but the overall damage is similar enough. This is because Anet balanced it this way.
The point is that;
5 Direct damage players dealing 10,000 burst damage a piece in 4 seconds every 10 seconds and 2,000 DPS every second thereafter.
Is absolutely no different than;
5 Condition damage players (assuming individual stacks) dealing 10,000 DPS with their condition skills, and 1000 direct damage per second.
(purely hypothetical numbers)

That high number looks insane at first but when you look at it you realize that the 5 condition spammers are not dealing anymore damage than the direct damage crowd. They just scale backwards. Condition damage ramping up rather than down as Direct damage damage does. So who cares if 50 condition spammers deal 175000+ damage per second… If they were direct damage they would be doing the same exact amount of damage.

In other words giving each player their own stacks of condition damage would mean more damage for bosses and world bosses. But not because it would make condition damage builds deal more damage or even more powerful. but because they would stop gimping one another. this is why condition damage is more popular in PvP, The damage is actually really good. On par with Zerker (assuming you gear for duration and damage) and in PvP you don’t have to worry (as much) about someone completely negating your damage by helping you fight.

^ This however, because of the engine is apparently not possible for Anet to do. I would like to point out though that this is exactly how every (to my knowledge) MMO has ever dealt with DOTs. Your damage over time belongs to you, and it doesn’t matter how many other players are using their DOTs. they have no effect on your DOTs.

How would I fix it? Well I don’t know Anet’s engine at all. But from what they say I understand it to be a problem of they propagate the status of the enemy health and effects to everyone in the area and this bogs down the system to increase it would cause many problems. I’m not sure why that even is a problem at all honestly because as I’ve said no MMO I’ve ever played (or any of us really, right?) has had such a problem. But since it seems to be the core problem I would give the stacks of DOTs to the player themselves. Same stack size same mechanics. But let the players track only their own burning, torment, confusion, poison and bleed stacks. I mean we do that already right? there are a lot more than 25 bleed stacks or more than 1 poison stack in the area during mass boss fights, because they are on the players as well. Clearly we can all have 25 stacks of bleeding on ourselves without no problems.

This got long winded…

Astralporing.1957:

Yes. As i said “unless the zerker is doing something wrong”. Using a useless buff certainly qualifies.

Hey, if a Zerker wants to use buffs that give him some survivability, he’s not playing the build wrong…

Loki.1092

snip

Except the original Guildwars, conditions were the same way…and Guild wars 2 is not ‘other’ MMOs.

Also, Some Damage over Time skills do Stack as well, just not in the traditional way (barrage as an example. Multiple barrages in the same area will stack their damage individually according to player, so will ranger traps, etc) They just don’t apply a debuff, the damage is out in the field that is completely avoidable.

And some conditions do need a hard limit. Vulnerability for example. If 50 players apply 10 stacks of Vulnerability each (actually kind of easy….), that equals out to 500 stacks of vulnerability, which means that every attack (including conditions) will deal 500% more damage. That would make Boss fights completely trivial. While it would be awesome to see a 100K Critical Hit that doesn’t involve killing poor defenseless rabbits, that will also make any champion and world boss extremely easy to kill, Champions that a large enough group of players can burst down in less than 10 seconds without conditions. Add in Conditions, it becomes even more ridiculous. If you buff Champions and boss’s Hp to compensate, then the bosses just take much longer, turning the bosses into infinite hp walls that you have to attack (which many players have complained about already in the game)

As far as other conditions go, The way conditions work in the game right now is that you have no way of reducing the condition damage you take, only regular damage. It works the same way for bosses. If Anet makes Conditions less effective on bosses (like Jormag when he’s not stunned), then it could work. I’m not sure if it is in the game already or not, but if it is, just disregard this paragraph.

But we also need to go back to my first concern in this thread, when I said that the limits of Burning, poison, etc, need to stay seperate from PvE and PvP/WvW. The reason for that is that there isn’t enough counterplay to Conditions. You have what? 2 dodges to avoid damage to begin with, and a very limited number of condition removals? Thats not enough to be taking 800+ damage a second of burning from 5 different sources, equaling out to over 4000+ a second, which will kill most characters in about 3 seconds, with no real counterplay to it.

Stx.4857:

This is definitely one of those things they should have fixed during their beta over a year ago.

Other games feature DoT classes, and miraculously they can all deal their damage just fine. This ‘technical limitation’ excuse is getting really old. Its 2013, you can’t use that excuse for everything.

OH and to the boneheads using the argument: “It’s okay because the fight has adds, go kill those”, what if the fight DIDN’T have adds? Your argument is completely irrelevant. The simple facts are that you cannot dps as a condition spec on open world bosses, and you also cannot dps as conditions in 5man dungeons if there are more than one condition spec!

Why even have condition specs in the game if you can’t use them in PvE at all other than leveling?

Very much so. Except that even in leveling you still have problems if you need to kill objects. Lucky as a necro, I can rely on the flesh golum, but even that doesn’t work all the time (like that door in Straits of Devastation, that you need to destroy to get a point of interest inside – took me ages to destroy cause there was no one around, and the minion couldn’t attack/dmg it at all).
And it’s really sad I’m forced to use a different char for dungeons if I go with my mate who’s main is a conditionmancer…

Anyway, I don’t really care about how much contribution I can make to the boss. Chances are it’ll be so laggy that I’ll be lucky to be able to land ANY kind of hit at all. Think seconds per frame. No DPS happening with that, sustained or burst!
But as long as I manage to tag everything and get all the loot, then I’m happy XD.

PopeUrban.2578:

Very few champions require a group,

For that matter very few group events actually require a group.

Yeah this is such utter elitist-fed nonsense I’m not even going to bother. Pretty much just posting for laughs.

Chrispy.5641:

But we also need to go back to my first concern in this thread, when I said that the limits of Burning, poison, etc, need to stay seperate from PvE and PvP/WvW. The reason for that is that there isn’t enough counterplay to Conditions. You have what? 2 dodges to avoid damage to begin with, and a very limited number of condition removals? Thats not enough to be taking 800+ damage a second of burning from 5 different sources, equaling out to over 4000+ a second, which will kill most characters in about 3 seconds, with no real counterplay to it.

Why it is not OK die to 5 different sources of burning at 800 dps from 5 different players?
You would die just as fast to say… 5 different Hundred Blades attacks from 5 different enemies.
You will die just as easily if you were hit by 5 Rapid Fire’s from 5 players as well.

In fact considering you can remove the conditions I would say you would still die to the x5 direct damage faster… you can dodge/block conditions too. Conditions have more counterplay than direct damage because you can remove them and reduce their duration with food. Anything you can do to avoid direct damage you can also do to avoid condition damage. The primary difference is that condition damage is not frontloaded.

Condition damage is not better than Direct damage, Yes it ignores armor, but it also cant crit. People are stuck in this Idea that if you remove limits suddenly condition builds would be godly. But that simply isn’t true. In a 1 on 1 situation condition builds would not change at all, and in a milti on multi situation they will just be in the same boat as direct damage builds are currently.

_When I speak of removing condition stacks I am of course speaking only of the damage dealing conditions. _

Chrispy.5641:

Well, why not have the 25 Strongest Stacks of Bleeding deal damage, then when that runs out, the next strongest stack of Bleeding will deal, and so on. The Stacks aren’t actually going anywhere, they are just in a standby queue waiting for their turn to deal damage like how burning and poison are set up now.

I guess this would not be a viable solution because as I learned the problem with going over the 25 stacks is said to be due to network limitations (?don’t quite understand how this could be the technical issue, because it’s just a few numbers?) and keeping stacks in a queue would not change that (would be the same technical limitation).

I also read a suggestion that CD should be direct damage when the cap of 25 is reached consistently. Maybe divide the whole DOT that on-top bleeding would do by a constant (perhaps by 3 or 4 or a even higher number…) once stacks are full and then apply that as direct damage? I’d strongly support this approach, even with smaller direct damage numbers… at least you’d do SOME damage.

Chrispy.5641:

I don’t actually see a problem with Burning or Poison right now because both are set up to where the effect with the hghest damage is always applied first, plus, all the condition damage that you apply with those sources will eventually deal damage. Bleeding however, that is a problem.

I can’t see it doing 25 stacks per person because then 50+ players could end up doing 175000+ damage per second, and make every boss encounter way too easy if you just fire off conditions and forget about anything else. I can also see problems with more than 25 Stacks, especially in areas other than World Bosses…

Why is that a problem? 50+ warriors can do 50x the damage as 1 warrior. 50x rangers can do 50x the damage of 1 ranger, 50x of any direct damage spec can do 50x the damage as 1 direct damage spec.

Now switch to condition damage. 1 condition damage user can do 1k dps. 2 condition damage users can do 1k dps… 1234568r563453725937845893 condition damage users can do 1k dps…

It is a problem and it needs to be fixed.

Neilos Tyrhanos.5427:

Useless in “Most of the game’s content”? Really? Rubbish.

OP is getting a bit polemic. This problem is fairly minor.

Its not Minor at all, 1 person can stack 25 bleeds solo but its hard to maintain those stacks, with just 2 condition build players you can keep 25 bleeds on sonetime very easily.

Every other condition build player after the 2nd.. maybe 3rd is completely useless, they will not be putting any conditions on that mob at all.

Out of the 80-100 players that will be there a good amount will be condition spec. that means the fight will take longer b.c more and more players are dealing less and less damage.

I know there are Add’s but 1/2 the condition specs/classes have a good amount of aoe (theif and necro comes to mind with good bleed aoe).

Ive completely went zerk on all classes b.c I am tired of no doing damage in parties bue to others being conditions or they just apply them even tho they are zerk b.c it is apart of there skills and then I can only add 15 bleeds on and deal less damage….

everyone

/RAGE
My Conditions aren’t doing as much damage as the guy in melee getting stomped by the enemies. I’m angry. Why am I not doing Damage for being lazy. Why am I not doing damage for applying a Burning skill then running away? HULK SMASH!!!!!!

That is what you guys sound like right now. You should consider the reason why Ranged does less damage than Melee, then after thinking about that, consider any possibility why Condition damage does less than Direct Damage. Condition damage skills are ‘fire and forget’ in this game right now, and if the limits on Condition damage are removed, then that term will just become even more relevant. Why do you think you should be rewarded the same damage for doing less work than the guys doing direct damage?

…and Im not talking specifically about world bosses where every condition spec is totally useless. I’m talking about all parts of the game for this.

Chrispy.5641:

everyone

/RAGE
My Conditions aren’t doing as much damage as the guy in melee getting stomped by the enemies. I’m angry. Why am I not doing Damage for being lazy. Why am I not doing damage for applying a Burning skill then running away? HULK SMASH!!!!!!

That is what you guys sound like right now. You should consider the reason why Ranged does less damage than Melee, then after thinking about that, consider any possibility why Condition damage does less than Direct Damage. Condition damage skills are ‘fire and forget’ in this game right now, and if the limits on Condition damage are removed, then that term will just become even more relevant. Why do you think you should be rewarded the same damage for doing less work than the guys doing direct damage?

…and Im not talking specifically about world bosses where every condition spec is totally useless. I’m talking about all parts of the game for this.

Who said condition builds are ranged builds? and as for necro, it is only a ranged class even its zerk builds.

My thief d/d is all close combat, with caltrops, death blossom and dodge caltrops I have to be in the fight just as much as any melee class/build.

Yes I may be able to run away and still do damage, but a zerk warrior 100b can do 40k damage in 2sec, my 25 bleed stack has to spend the 20sec plus I have to reapply it 10x! to even do that much damage, and the whole time I still need to be in melee to reapply.

Against a world boss, yes you will not be able to crit, but your still doing 14-15k damage. That is 25 stacks of bleed and then needed to reapply them 3 times, so that 1min to do 15k damage where a zerk build did that in a few second. I know that is bust damage, but they can do it every 8sec.

I read page 1 so forgive me it others have mentioned it. I just want to break down what happens during zerg fights and why people are complaining here.

1.) Conditions only go up to 25. With 80 people (according to Anet) being at this fight, the majority of conditon damage done to Tequatl will go to waste.

2.) People who spec out to do high condition damage will have their useful conditions replaced by other classes who are not spec’ed for condition, but still bring weapons/skills/trait that do conditions. These people should try their best to not apply conditions if possible. Temp fix: Highest condition damage should automatically replace lower ones?

3.) World bossess also don’t take crit damage, so part of the DPS builds go to waste. Kinda sucks for this build too, especially when they need crit hits to heal themselves via consumables. They are not doing 40k damage if they cannot crit.

4.) Some champs require a certain amount of damage in order to get the exotic bags. This favors the beserker builds and takes away from team work and support. This is very noticible during invasions
Anet should give “points” to those rezzing in the area and doing team support as the champ gets taken down.

5.) Anets current fix (for Tequatl) seems to be to spread out the zerg by defending multiple areas and having multiple targets to attack as well as as other jobs (turrets, battery…etc). I personally like this idea. This is more “alive” and realistic. People can still help out and feel useful where needed and hopefully they do not need to even lay a weapon on Tequatl to get the full gold award.

Chrispy.5641:

everyone

/RAGE
My Conditions aren’t doing as much damage as the guy in melee getting stomped by the enemies. I’m angry. Why am I not doing Damage for being lazy. Why am I not doing damage for applying a Burning skill then running away? HULK SMASH!!!!!!

That is what you guys sound like right now. You should consider the reason why Ranged does less damage than Melee, then after thinking about that, consider any possibility why Condition damage does less than Direct Damage. Condition damage skills are ‘fire and forget’ in this game right now, and if the limits on Condition damage are removed, then that term will just become even more relevant. Why do you think you should be rewarded the same damage for doing less work than the guys doing direct damage?

…and Im not talking specifically about world bosses where every condition spec is totally useless. I’m talking about all parts of the game for this.

You have no Idea how condition damage specs works… do you? You really shouldn’t make assumptions about things you do not understand because it makes your case all the weaker for it.

Let me illustrate with a standard condition build .
30/20/0/20/0 Engineer.

Lets go over the conditions here

Explosive Shot. 2 Second bleed 1/2 second activation time
Poison Dart Volley. 2 second poison 8 second cooldown
Static Shot. 4 second confuse 12 second cooldown
Blowtorch. 7 second burn 12 second cooldown
Shrapnel Grenade. 15 second bleed 5 second cooldown
Poison Grenade. 6 second poison, 25 second cooldown

In case you are still not sure about the math Ill break it down for you.

1. Explosive shot + Shrapnel grenade if you use them on cooldown (every time they are up) will give a steady total of x7 bleed that will fall off to x4-x5 every 15 or so seconds due to using other skills. To keep this meager amount of damage up you must spam these skills on cooldown to deal the damage.
2. Poison dart + Poison grenade will give a total of 10 seconds of poison every 25 seconds. It is literally impossible to keep this condition up And you must use these skills on cooldown to deal the damage. which is a 40% uptime.
3. Static shot is 33% uptime on confusion.
4. Blowtorch Gives a 58% uptime on burning.

Yes. That means Condition damage specs have to use their skills on cooldown in a “priority” rotation to achieve maximum damage. There is no fire and forget. If you do not fire again as soon as you can, you deal zero damage.

And one more thing while you are calling condition builds “lazy” … I guarantee Every Elementalist and Engineer worth their salt have easily twice as many button presses a minute as your Warrior or Ranger or whatever other Direct damage class you play. Oh you auto attack 50% of the time and hit a few skills on cooldown? Must be rough.

Lets flip this around and see how you would like this “minor” problem:

In order to make it fair to condition damage specs, the following rules have been implemented in every game mode:

1. Upon striking an enemy 25 times with a direct damage attack the enemy will gain a “debuff” which reduces incoming direct damage from all sources by 95% for the next 5 seconds.
2. This debuff will be reapplied upon each successful direct damage attack after 25.
3. The direct damage component of condition users (read, almost 0 dmg) will count against the total as well.
Now tell me again about how “minor” this problem is?

Holy Whirlwind.2067:

1.) Conditions only go up to 25. With 80 people (according to Anet) being at this fight, the majority of conditon damage done to Tequatl will go to waste.

This is not entirely true. Some conditions only go to 1 stack and stack duration.

2.) People who spec out to do high condition damage will have their useful conditions replaced by other classes who are not spec’ed for condition, but still bring weapons/skills/trait that do conditions. These people should try their best to not apply conditions if possible. Temp fix: Highest condition damage should automatically replace lower ones?

This is not the problem at all, this is not how conditions work right now, and your “fix” is already how conditions stack.

3.) World bossess also don’t take crit damage, so part of the DPS builds go to waste. Kinda sucks for this build too, especially when they need crit hits to heal themselves via consumables. They are not doing 40k damage if they cannot crit.

some world bosses cannot be crit during certain phases… They can be crit when that phase ends. Also direct damage specs do not actively reduce each others damage.

4.) Some champs require a certain amount of damage in order to get the exotic bags. This favors the beserker builds and takes away from team work and support. This is very noticible during invasions
Anet should give “points” to those rezzing in the area and doing team support as the champ gets taken down.

This has nothing to do with the conversation at hand, though a good Idea. Also condition damage specs are not support.

Holy Whirlwind.2067:

5.) Anets current fix (for Tequatl) seems to be to spread out the zerg by defending multiple areas and having multiple targets to attack as well as as other jobs (turrets, battery…etc). I personally like this idea. This is more “alive” and realistic. People can still help out and feel useful where needed and hopefully they do not need to even lay a weapon on Tequatl to get the full gold award.

This doesn’t fix anything. The multiple enemies will have the same exact problem as Tequatl, because the problem isn’t with the boss, the problem isn’t with the event, the problem is that when there is more than 1 person dealing condition damage they actively reduce the damage of all other people dealing condition damage.

Simple solution. Dont use condition damage.

How about this:

Remove the dragon’s health bar. Instead, allow us to target subsections of the dragon, each with their own health bars and condition caps. When, say, 75% of them are dead, the dragon dies.

This kills two birds with one stone.

1) Condition classes are happy because there are multiple areas to target, each with their own condition stacks, so if an area is being focused hard, a condition build can just hit something else.

2) Dragon fights become more interesting than just “stand there and beat on a foot until it dies.”

Hitpoints in games have always been an attempt to simulate real wounds without all of the necessary computing that actually simulating real wounds would take. In real life, if you stab someone in the foot, it hurts them, but if you keep stabbing them in the same foot, eventually it’s not going to hurt them any more than it already has. Eventually, there isn’t anything left there to destroy. Hitpoints don’t accurately reflect that, especially with very large targets – and we accept that abnormality because hitpoints have been around for so long and no one has ever seemed to come up with anything better.

Well, guess what? This changes that. Now, you can beat on the foot for a while, but when the foot reaches damage saturation (the foot runs out of hitpoints), you have to target something else, and the dragon doesn’t die until 75% of the targets on its body are dead. So instead of three people beating on a foot, you have a warrior smacking the feet, a ranger hitting the head or the tail, and a necromancer making it spray blood from its abdomen. More interesting.

Thoughts?

Anet should have figured out a work around for conditions by now period. It has been a year so there really isn’t a reason this should not have a work around by now. Those guys are smart and creative no reason this should still be an issue. That being said you have option and various builds use them. Not all fights can be melee’d so you bring a ranged weapon. Not all fights are condition friendly so you bring another set. I understand your build is not optimized for direct damage but concession must be made till a solution comes.

Nar.8327:

How about this:

Remove the dragon’s health bar. Instead, allow us to target subsections of the dragon, each with their own health bars and condition caps. When, say, 75% of them are dead, the dragon dies.

This kills two birds with one stone.

1) Condition classes are happy because there are multiple areas to target, each with their own condition stacks, so if an area is being focused hard, a condition build can just hit something else.

2) Dragon fights become more interesting than just “stand there and beat on a foot until it dies.”

Hitpoints in games have always been an attempt to simulate real wounds without all of the necessary computing that actually simulating real wounds would take. In real life, if you stab someone in the foot, it hurts them, but if you keep stabbing them in the same foot, eventually it’s not going to hurt them any more than it already has. Eventually, there isn’t anything left there to destroy. Hitpoints don’t accurately reflect that, especially with very large targets – and we accept that abnormality because hitpoints have been around for so long and no one has ever seemed to come up with anything better.

Well, guess what? This changes that. Now, you can beat on the foot for a while, but when the foot reaches damage saturation (the foot runs out of hitpoints), you have to target something else, and the dragon doesn’t die until 75% of the targets on its body are dead. So instead of three people beating on a foot, you have a warrior smacking the feet, a ranger hitting the head or the tail, and a necromancer making it spray blood from its abdomen. More interesting.

Thoughts?

The problem isnt the dragon fight its the whole game, if you have multi condition characters anywhere is the problem.

Faux.1937:

Nar.8327:

How about this:

Remove the dragon’s health bar. Instead, allow us to target subsections of the dragon, each with their own health bars and condition caps. When, say, 75% of them are dead, the dragon dies.

This kills two birds with one stone.

1) Condition classes are happy because there are multiple areas to target, each with their own condition stacks, so if an area is being focused hard, a condition build can just hit something else.

2) Dragon fights become more interesting than just “stand there and beat on a foot until it dies.”

Thoughts?

The problem isnt the dragon fight its the whole game, if you have multi condition characters anywhere is the problem.

While a good basic idea Nar it doesn’t address the problem at all. I don’t think many people understand the problem unless you play a condition damage character. The problem isn’t that having 20 condition users hurts each other. the problem is that having 2 Just 2 condition damage specs on one target, lowers each others damage. Having 20 just makes the problem insane.

Lokki.1092:

Faux.1937:

Nar.8327:

How about this:

Remove the dragon’s health bar. Instead, allow us to target subsections of the dragon, each with their own health bars and condition caps. When, say, 75% of them are dead, the dragon dies.

This kills two birds with one stone.

1) Condition classes are happy because there are multiple areas to target, each with their own condition stacks, so if an area is being focused hard, a condition build can just hit something else.

2) Dragon fights become more interesting than just “stand there and beat on a foot until it dies.”

Thoughts?

The problem isnt the dragon fight its the whole game, if you have multi condition characters anywhere is the problem.

While a good basic idea Nar it doesn’t address the problem at all. I don’t think many people understand the problem unless you play a condition damage character. The problem isn’t that having 20 condition users hurts each other. the problem is that having 2 Just 2 condition damage specs on one target, lowers each others damage. Having 20 just makes the problem insane.

As I said in the forum already too, 1 player can put 25 on easy, 2 can keep 25 on for a full fight easy, any other condition player after the 1st 2 it really lowers the over all dps to an extreme.

Conditions need to be fixed in general not just against bosses like Tequatl… If you have more than 1 person that uses conditions you lose DPS. Even if you only have 1 person that uses conditions, pure damage users sometimes have a random forced trait that gives bleeds on crit that can overwrite the higher damage conditions.

5 Warriors all damage spec can do a dungeon… all are useful.
5 Necros all conditions 4 of them are useless. Remember before posting that ANet advertised that you can group up with anyone any spec and do something no trinity no searching for healers, tanks or dps.

I say if conditions aren’t fixed direct damage should take a hit to compensate to be inline with conditions. The best thing I’ve heard is to put a cap on DPS say like 5-10k (conditions do like 3-4k max a second so this is still better) damage a second if the mob takes more than that in a second people start doing immune damage which won’t go higher. If they can’t design a system that allows all conditions they need to change direct damage to be inline with conditions, or just remove bleeds from the game and create something else instead.