Guild Wars 2

Another bit of fun theorizing; what beings can currently become Elder Dragons. Now, we know Glint could, it’s theorized her child/egg has the capability, and that Tequatl may be taking over for Zhaitan[or maybe it’s dead?]. But there are two other possible Elder Dragon candidates I’d like to name: Drakkar, for Jormag, and the Pale Tree, for Mordremoth. Drakkar is an obvious one, it is Jormag’s oldest minion ironically frozen under a lake[unsure if it is now, though]. The Pale Tree, though not necessarily a “dragon”, is definitely a great being with strong magical ties, means of creating minions, and has the “elements” of Plants and Mind[Being a tree and connecting sylvari through The Dream]. It might face competition from the Shadow of the Dragon, but it definitely seems like it has the capability. A miscellaneous third candidate for the Mordremoth replacement could be the second and yet undiscovered “Pale Tree” near Magus Falls.

Any thoughts on more candidates, or possibly theory for what it takes to become a candidate?

There’s also the Dragons in Shing Jea Isle, Echovald Forest and the Jade Sea….

If Echovald Forest and the Jade Sea aren’t regaining their original states due to the Dwayna empowered Jade Wind wearing off(the fact that Zephyrites have Jade implies that the Jade Wind isn’t wearing off) then in all likelyhood it’s because a lesser Dragon is feeding off the Magic of those areas to become Elder Dragons.

The death of Zhaitan and Mordremoth may be setting up Jade and Forest Elder Dragons ascension

Glint’s child is a crystal Dragon and considering how it’s alterations of the Maguuma Wastes may differ from Kralkatorrik due to the fact that the crystals made from Glint’s remaining magic were green and thus her child’s Dragonbrand corruption may also be green.

Of course considering the Am Fah’s obsession with using the Chalice of Corruption to create Afflicted the chances of a Dragon absorbing that magic and becoming an Plague Elder Dragon is a small possibility.

Green Crystal Elder Dragon(Air and Crystal), Jade Elder Dragon(Jade and Life), Echovald Forest Elder Dragon(Plant and Stone) and a Plague Elder Dragon(Soul and Shadow) seem to be big candidates…

Dondagora.9645:

Any thoughts on more candidates, or possibly theory for what it takes to become a candidate?

To absorb a dragon’s power? Be part of the Septim lineage or be blessed by Akatosh. Wait, wrong setting.

the interesting thing about that second pale tree is the book in the hidden arcana you read about malyik (I think I spelt it wrong) and that without the memorys of his tree and potentially not having a dream he is able to choose his own path and the writer hopes he chooses correctly, it also points out that the other pale tree creates sylvari in the same way that the pale tree creates sylvari in the shape of ronin so I’d think unlike the pc sylvari the other tree is slyvari that are more akin to humans in its nature and being a very powerful entity could make it possible that it if the story goes down that path it will get mordremoths powers.

Dondagora.9645:

Another bit of fun theorizing; what beings can currently become Elder Dragons. Now, we know Glint could, it’s theorized her child/egg has the capability, and that Tequatl may be taking over for Zhaitan[or maybe it’s dead?].

Technically it’s theorized that Glint could – in universe. Which if she couldn’t means none could. But lets work on the assumption she could have – by that, then any dragon should be capable of such.

Dondagora.9645:

But there are two other possible Elder Dragon candidates I’d like to name: Drakkar, for Jormag, and the Pale Tree, for Mordremoth.

Drakkar and the Pale Tree are not dragons, so we don’t know if they can consume magic like dragons.

IMO, the list is:

• Glint’s first child (EotN’s Baby Dragon – if still alive)
• Glint’s youngest child (the egg we have)
• Potential Glint’s middle child(ren) (if any hatched)
• Dragon lieutenants (Tequatl and co, Claws of Jormag, The Shatterers, Shadow of the Dragon, The Great Destroyers, DSD’s dragons – if still alive – not preferred, they be evil)
• Kuunavang, Albax, and Shiny (if Saltspray Dragons consume magic like Tyrian dragons)

For non-dragon, it all depends on if they can regulate magic, but I wouldn’t be surprised if we get:

• Malyck (the wording for him in the book in Hidden Arcana is very reminiscent of Lyssa’s Muse talking about Kormir before she becomes a god)
• Malyck’s tree
• Pale Tree
• Bloodstone and Krait Obelisks (object, would require others to feed magic into it; either letting it sit or seep back out slowly akin to dragons)
• Return of the Six Gods
• “Great Dwarf” (aka dwarven race – they’ve become anti-Destroyer weapons, perhaps they now live on magic instead of food?)

In all honesty, I don’t want the Pale Tree to become “the next Elder Dragon” unless she’s kittenurping evil mastermind. It puts way too much focus on the sylvari, which has already happened, and the Pale Tree apparently knew of the Antikytheria (supposedly) and yet has been pushing for the sylvari to kill the Elder Dragons – almost as if she’s intending to send Tyria into chaotic Armageddon.

Mickey Frogeater.1470:

There’s also the Dragons in Shing Jea Isle, Echovald Forest and the Jade Sea….

the “Dragonmoss” plants are just plants that look draconic; Turtle Dragons too, I’d imagine. As far as we can really be sure, only Saltsprays are ‘real’ dragons and even then, we don’t know if they consume magic.

Mickey Frogeater.1470:

The death of Zhaitan and Mordremoth may be setting up Jade and Forest Elder Dragons ascension

I hope not. Six years of dragons is enough.

Though if this is so, it’d just be Kuunavang and Albax, I’m sure.

Mickey Frogeater.1470:

Glint’s child is a crystal Dragon and considering how it’s alterations of the Maguuma Wastes may differ from Kralkatorrik due to the fact that the crystals made from Glint’s remaining magic were green and thus her child’s Dragonbrand corruption may also be green.

Glint’s crystals were blue.

Mickey Frogeater.1470:

Of course considering the Am Fah’s obsession with using the Chalice of Corruption to create Afflicted the chances of a Dragon absorbing that magic and becoming an Plague Elder Dragon is a small possibility.

That ended 250 years ago. The Chalice of Corruption – and the instructions to making them – were destroyed in Factions and Winds of Change respectively. The Afflicted are 100% gone as of Winds of Change – that’s what the first act of that plot was all about.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

For non-dragon, it all depends on if they can regulate magic, but I wouldn’t be surprised if we get:

• Malyck (the wording for him in the book in Hidden Arcana is very reminiscent of Lyssa’s Muse talking about Kormir before she becomes a god)
• Malyck’s tree
• Pale Tree
• Bloodstone and Krait Obelisks (object, would require others to feed magic into it; either letting it sit or seep back out slowly akin to dragons)
• Return of the Six Gods
• “Great Dwarf” (aka dwarven race – they’ve become anti-Destroyer weapons, perhaps they now live on magic instead of food?)

Both the Pale Tree/Sylvari and the Great Dwarf exhibit the sort of collective consciousness that Dragons and their minions do, so they seem like good candidates.

If Dragons and gods are a similar class of being, then Kormir’s ascension suggests that any mortal, properly prepared, could do so. Perhaps it would be safer, however, to spread that power out broadly — say, distributing Mordremoth’s power among the entire Sylvari race, or Kralkatorrik’s among the Zephyrites or Asura.

I’m not sure about the Bloodstones, since they’re merely artifacts with no consciousness. It would be ideal, though, as their regulation of magic seems to be preservative and orderly in nature, whereas the dragons “regulate” magic in the same fashion as wolves regulate the deer population, and with about as much deliberate regard for balance.

perilisk.1874:

Both the Pale Tree/Sylvari and the Great Dwarf exhibit the sort of collective consciousness that Dragons and their minions do, so they seem like good candidates.

Collective consciousnesses (which is NOT what the sylvari/Pale Tree/Dream is) is irrelevant in this matter.

The role of the Elder Dragons is to balance magic. They do this by consuming and exuding. What’s needed is a being that can retain magic in its body – either permanently (like it seems it is for the Six Gods), or temporarily (in which case they need a means to add magic back into their body).

Theoretically, the role of the Elder Dragons can be spread amongst dozens or even hundreds of beings/objects. It is just a matter – so it seems – of keeping the magic from flooding the world. Though if you do such a thing, we may have a repeat of the mursaat – powerful beings that try to take over the world.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Collective consciousnesses (which is NOT what the sylvari/Pale Tree/Dream is) is irrelevant in this matter.

The role of the Elder Dragons is to balance magic. They do this by consuming and exuding. What’s needed is a being that can retain magic in its body – either permanently (like it seems it is for the Six Gods), or temporarily (in which case they need a means to add magic back into their body).

Well, whatever you want to call the Sylvari’s ongoing link to the Dream as mediated by the Pale Tree. Collective unconsicious? At any rate, it isn’t the mechanism of cognition that is precisely relevant to dragonhood, so much as it is the magical link between a large population of creatures.

If their minds are connected (as dragon minions’ seem to be to a limited extent), then it’s possible that, upon ascending to dragonhood, they would also gain the dragons’ ability to absorb magic through each member, which would have major bearing on their ability to regulate magic.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

~Snip~
Drakkar and the Pale Tree are not dragons, so we don’t know if they can consume magic like dragons.

~Snip~

But, Drakkar is a Champion of Jormag(if not a dragon himself, which we really don’t know, or do we?). So isn’t it possible that perhaps, any Dragon Champion could become and Elder anything?, and not just have to be a Dragon. It just so happens that the creatures that became Elders and regulate magic are dragons. I know, that’s really stretching it, and probably completely way off base. Just wild speculation.

But the question about Drakkar still remains, if not a Dragon, what is it(all we know is that it’s a champion of Jormag, I suppose). Though from the skeleton under the lake, it certainly looked like a dragon, of sorts.

Being a dragon champion != being a dragon. It is dragons that consume magic, not necessarily champions.

And Drakkar certainly doesn’t look like any other dragon (especially Tyrian dragon) we’ve seen. he has no claws – just pincers – and no wings.

The thing looks more like a gargantuan Mandragor to be honest. Though less planty and more reptilian/amphibian.

I imagine we will see what happens, but it seems like each dragon could be taken to represent an extreme of some metaphysical axis even more fundamental than the elements they embody, along with some attendant spiritual malady. Speculative breakdown follows, Chaos on the left, Order on the right:

S : Darkness [Lies/Secrets] – K : Light [Hubris]
Z : Death [Despair] – M : Life [Madness/Nightmare]
P : Destruction/Change [Rage?] – J : Stasis [Desire/Hunger]

So, it’s possible (in the interest of good triumphing over evil and whatnot) that whatever ends up absorbing and managing those primal forces tends to embody a virtue that counteracts the natural tendency of the metaphysical principle. For example, the potential represented by an egg represents Hope, to counteract despair; the Pale Tree embodies Serenity, to balance the manic Madness vibrant life can present; the Great Dwarf could embody a sort of stoic calm to balance out the rage of Destruction. Given that Glint’s other baby has been content to avoid the spotlight for now, it might be humble enough to replace Kralkatorrik.

Zhaitan is “Death and Shadow” – if there’s any “darkness”, it’s Zhaitan via Shadows, if there’s any lies, it’s Zhaitan, who repeatedly lies via his risen.

Mordrem is Plant and Mind, not life which is far far more broad than “plant” or “mind”.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Zhaitan is “Death and Shadow” – if there’s any “darkness”, it’s Zhaitan via Shadows, if there’s any lies, it’s Zhaitan, who repeatedly lies via his risen.

Mordrem is Plant and Mind, not life which is far far more broad than “plant” or “mind”.

Yes, I was speculating that the Priory was mistaken. Not on any evidence, really, aside from the fact that the spheres the Dragons are assumed to represent seem a bit limited for something that could rip apart the fabric of reality when unbalanced (Crystal? really?), and that some of the potential dragon replacements seem to have attitudes/strengths at odds with their corresponding dragon.

perilisk.1874:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Zhaitan is “Death and Shadow” – if there’s any “darkness”, it’s Zhaitan via Shadows, if there’s any lies, it’s Zhaitan, who repeatedly lies via his risen.

Mordrem is Plant and Mind, not life which is far far more broad than “plant” or “mind”.

Yes, I was speculating that the Priory was mistaken. Not on any evidence, really, aside from the fact that the spheres the Dragons are assumed to represent seem a bit limited for something that could rip apart the fabric of reality when unbalanced (Crystal? really?), and that some of the potential dragon replacements seem to have attitudes/strengths at odds with their corresponding dragon.

The problem there is that you’d have to assume that the gods were mistaken. That’s a bit harder to swallow, especially if you accept that they’re in the same general category of sphere-based entities as the dragons.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

The problem there is that you’d have to assume that the gods were mistaken. That’s a bit harder to swallow, especially if you accept that they’re in the same general category of sphere-based entities as the dragons.

Maybe they assume they’re in the same general category.

Anyway, the gods have been mistaken about plenty of things. Setting up shop on top of an Elder Dragon, giving humans magic, etc.

It’s less that “the gods were mistaken” and more that “the humans were mistaken about what the gods knew/didn’t know”.

According to what we have, the Six Gods didn’t know Zhaitan was beneath Arah – they were drawn to The Artesian Waters’ magic, and unknowingly pulled from Zhaitan when they strengthened the bloodstone. In this case, it isn’t a case of making a mistake in what they know, but simply not knowing.

Also, the problem with the wars after Abaddon’s gift of magic wasn’t due to gifting humans magic, but:

“Abaddon, god of water and secrets, gave the stone away to some races. This caused wars, because people fought over it. King Doric begged that it be taken back so the battles for power would end.”

(“the stone” being the Bloodstone)

Abaddon basically took the Bloodstone (or broken shards, possibly), and gave them to many races – not just humans (which befits all known lore, I don’t know why people think they gifted magic to only humans) – which caused wars of greed, desiring to obtain the Bloodstone.

We don’t know what exactly Abaddon’s intention with his war-insighting gift of magic was. Maybe he was intending to insight wars, in which case… the gods were not mistaken, but the other five were, by all appearances, not knowing the case. Though maybe some did (like Balthazar) and intended the races to wipe themselves out, leaving humanity to rule the world. Or maybe it was a test to see how races would handle such greedy scenarios – and the races failed, though unlike the other five gods, Abaddon didn’t think that they should remove the scenario (yet).

Lot of possibilities, and none really point to “the gods were mistaken.”

The primary characteristic for becoming a Elder Dragon seems to be the capacity to hold a massive amount of magic. Also probably the ability to consume magic, but lets just go with the battery analogy. This means that you could practically just use something like the blood stones (and have the added benefit of not having them try and eat you since the whole not being alive of conscious).
As for the Pale Tree… well she’s magically, but can she absorb magic? Can she hold a massive amount of magics?

perilisk.1874:

Dondagora.9645:

Any thoughts on more candidates, or possibly theory for what it takes to become a candidate?

To absorb a dragon’s power? Be part of the Septim lineage or be blessed by Akatosh. Wait, wrong setting.

Well yes, but it also seems clear after Skyrim that you don’t really need to be part of the Septim line, or at least it would bring up some interesting (if scandalous) questions as the Dragonborne can be anything from a orc to a cat-person.

perilisk.1874:

Both the Pale Tree/Sylvari and the Great Dwarf exhibit the sort of collective consciousness that Dragons and their minions do, so they seem like good candidates.

Yes, but from what we know the defining characteristic is not the hive mind but the ability to be a magic battery.

perilisk.1874:

I’m not sure about the Bloodstones, since they’re merely artifacts with no consciousness.

But being conscious isn’t a needed quality of a magic battery.

perilisk.1874:

If their minds are connected (as dragon minions’ seem to be to a limited extent), then it’s possible that, upon ascending to dragonhood, they would also gain the dragons’ ability to absorb magic through each member, which would have major bearing on their ability to regulate magic.

This feels a bit apples and oranges to me though. Hive mind doesn’t inherently relate to magic absorption or regulation.