Guild Wars 2

Tamias.7059:

It doesn’t deny it explicitly, but then neither does the line “I, Livia, learned of the Scepter of Orr from Gadd, who told me about it during the events of Eye of the North, in which I worked for him”, since it leaves open the possibility that she was somehow incorrect or lying. It would, however, then be a ridiculous assumption to make that she was wrong or lying, as it is here to believe that “I learned a great deal from [Gadd] that can help Kryta. Tell me, have you ever heard of the Scepter of Orr?” could possibly indicate anything other than that Livia learned of the Scepter of Orr from Gadd. Moreover, it shows that Livia intended to use the Scepter of Orr to help Kryta, which brings us onto our next point…

Actually, I think that such a comment would invalidate what I was saying. However, she does not say that.

However, answer me this: How would it make ANY amount of sense for Gadd – a creature who’s been underground for all of his life, unknowing of what humanity even is let alone existed by all indications, and once learning of their existence views them as little more (if nothing more) than disposable tools – learn about a piece of old culture of a dead human kingdom?

Answer: It doesn’t.

And that’s an even larger conundrum than what we’ve had thus far. Furthermore, I think that the context of the situation – that Livia just fired Gadd, more or less – gives a different light. Especially when knowing about Livia’s personality. I read that line as literally her saying “she’s not sorry that she left Gadd, since she gained a lot more than she lost, now she’s changing the subject to tease the audience.” I had never considered the possibility of Gadd telling Livia about the Scepter of Orr since 1) she’s Shining Blade and 2) it makes no sense for Gadd to know about it without learning it from the Shining Blade himself.

Tamias.7059:

The cinematic doesn’t show Primordus awakening, it shows him stirring, which is exactly what happens in Eye of the North.

You mean to say that an eye opening, the iris looking around and dilating from the new brightness, and then squinting of the eye followed by a roar while the camera fades to black is not Primordus waking up, but simply stirring? When every other Elder Dragon awakening features the same thing. I mean, Zhaitan’s awakening in the trailer is practically the exact same thing, and Mordremoth’s is just changing eye to mouth, but each open with vague off-screen roars.

But no, when a dragon looks around, and roars, shaking the surrounding (we saw some shaking movement as the camera faded to black), is just “stirring”.

I find this very hard to believe. Yet you’re telling me that I’m the one ignoring “the conventionally accepted interpretation of the evidence”.

Tamias.7059:

Similarly, Livia’s ‘fascination’ with anything that could help defeat the White Mantle during Eye of the North is one thing, but the manual article and hero unlock text both make explicit mention of a weapon of power, and the Scepter of Orr is the only means to defeating the White Mantle that is explored at any length in-game. So why is it unreasonable to say that she seeks the Scepter of Orr as a weapon of power to help defeat the White Mantle? I don’t understand why you are so determined to challenge this idea.

To quote the Kryta section of EotN’s manual: “In an attempt to find a way to turn the tides of war in their favor, both the SHining Blade and the White Mantle have sent agents across the reaches of Tyria, searching for powerful allies or magics.”

This is what the Shining Blade we meet in Eye of the North – including Livia – are doing. Searching for allies and magic to turn the tide. And they attempt such via Gadd.

It’s obvious Livia is after the Scepter of Orr, but not only after it (I do not deny this despite what you claim I claim – if you note, I never once stated she was not after the Scepter of Orr, just that she wasn’t only after it).

Tamias.7059:

As for whether or not the Scepter of Orr was actually found in Arah, the fact is that whilst it’s possible that it was found elsewhere, with what we know it isn’t remotely likely.

Not remotely likely? I disagree. Because of the fact we know NOTHING of where Livia retrieved it. Literally. ArenaNet gave us a vague-as-all-hell wilderness-looking area with the Scepter of Orr next to a tree stump. That cuts out… only the harshest of environments, really. Livia mentions going to Arah, but as I pointed out, she was not only after the Scepter of Orr.

Tamias.7059:

If you believe, as I do (and as far as I know, you are the only person who does not), that Livia seeks the Scepter of Orr in Arah, then you have to accept that she believes that the Scepter of Orr is in Arah at the time of the epilogue.

Please stop putting words into my mouth. I said it is possible that she wasn’t seeking the Scepter of Orr in Arah – just as it is likely she was, but didn’t find it there.

And quite honestly? No, we do not have to accept it because it isn’t proven nor is it very likely given how little knowledge we know. This is not a case like “Malchor is most likely Grenth’s father” in which we’re given specific hints to such (the love between the two, Grenth’s father called a mortal sculptor, Malchor being a mortal sculptor), but something far more vague – much more like what or who the entity is. The “occam’s razor” argument is perhaps what you are arguing in regards to this little piece (not how she learned of the Scepter nor why the unification didn’t finish until 1088), but it is far from the explanation we “have to accept”.

Tamias.7059:

it must be that the Scepter of Orr was in Arah after all.

Just like Thruln the Lost must have been telling the truth, right?

Wrong.

You’re making assumptions, Tamias. This is my biggest issue with you – you make CONSTANT assumptions under the guise of “most logical pieces of evidence”. But you never take into consideration writing styles, idea changes, or intentionally vague hooks because the writers don’t know what they want for sure yet. Or red herrings either, it seems.

Tamias.7059:

Otherwise, the game would be dropping a very big hint that the Scepter of Orr is in Arah and then going in a completely different direction.

You say that like it’s impossible.

Tamias.7059:

I disagree that this is all we are seen and told. Here is what I see:

• We are told that Livia seeks a ‘weapon of power’ to end the Krytan civil war.
• Livia is talking about the things she learned whilst working with Gadd, and mentions the Scepter of Orr.
• Livia is shown finding the Scepter of Orr in a flash-forward.
• Immediately after the flash-forward, Livia states her intent to head immediately to Arah.

That’s what we’re told. But you’re saying the ‘weapon of power’ Livia sought wasn’t the Scepter of Orr, that her mention of the Scepter of Orr when talking about what she learned from Gadd was a non sequitur, and that Livia intended to head to Arah for some reason other than seeking the Scepter of Orr, or possibly did not end up there at all. These possibilities, whilst not explicitly precluded, would contradict strongly established hints and are unthinkable to me.

To your points:

• Makes no sense when you think about it. How would Gadd know of the Scepter of Orr? See above.
• No, she’s talking about not being sad that she’s no longer working for Gadd. There’s a difference. She’s not sad because there’s a lot she learned from him – so it wasn’t a waste. See above.
• Yes, but where is unclear.
• Yes, but that doesn’t mean that’s where she finds it.

And again, I never said that Livia wasn’t searching for the Scepter of Orr. I said it wasn’t the only thing she was searching for. Stop twisting my words please. I also didn’t say that Livia couldn’t be going to Arah for something other than the Scepter, rather that it is possible she wasn’t. Big difference.

Personally, I’m in the camp that Livia learned it during Prophecies, but in Gadd’s defense he seems to have practically beelined for the nearest bloodstone. Assuming he didn’t just zero in on the nearest concentration of magical energy (unlikely, given that when we meet him he knows what he’s looking for), he already has a degree of knowledge on a magical artifact associated with the human gods and believed at the time to have originated in Orr. That in mind, it doesn’t seem such a big leap (though a small leap is nevertheless a leap) to say that he may have also known about the Scepter.

I still say that watery area could basically be anywhere. If Arah was entirely underwater as of that point… how would Livia get to it, much less into an area that isn’t completely underwater (cave or such), and that… well looks like a cave that could be anywhere :P

I think Gadd found out about the Bloodstone because that’s what the Shining Blade there are after as well (primarily – given the three quests involved with Bloodstone Caves after that story step).

I dunno… he knows a lot more about it than the Shining Blade in the area.

On the other hand, I believe it’s been stated that that’s the bloodstone the mursaat intended to execute Evennia on. Certainly, the Shining Blade knew back in Prophecies that there was one in the general area. It was probably a collaboration – the Shining Blade provided the initial impetus to look and the general area, Gadd provided the means to pinpoint and get through the entrance. Gadd gets to sample the Bloodstone’s magic, the Shining Blade get their weapons, everyone wins. Except the Mantle.

CHIPS.6018:

Perhaps more than 1 person is capable of living for 300 years. Since Anise most likely knows Livia personally, they may pass secrets and magic between each other.

Perhaps they are all part of a group of ancient mages. These hidden guardians of Kryta will come out when necessary.

I like the attachment ;p

Based on scenery alone, I don’t see how Livia could have found the scepter in Orr. The cutscene showed her in an area that I assumed was the maguuma jungle. Granted, it could have been literally anywhere that had greenery, but seeing as how Orr has lacked any kind of greenery for the past 250 years (or more given how completely covered in architecture the island seems to be). and was likely underwater at the time she found the scepter. (she could have gone to Orr post-rise, but she probably wouldn’t have gone alone without being eaten by zombies, and again, Orr is completely barren aside from a few fungi and lichens.) I find it hard to believe that she did, in fact find it there.

draxynnic.3719:

Or Zhaitan’s corruption of Orr affected the Sceptre, with bad results for Livia.

That said, I think the most likely explanation is simply that Livia found something more important to do.

She probably went to go investigate what was happening in Elona

please please please

Squee.7829:

Based on scenery alone, I don’t see how Livia could have found the scepter in Orr. The cutscene showed her in an area that I assumed was the maguuma jungle. Granted, it could have been literally anywhere that had greenery, but seeing as how Orr has lacked any kind of greenery for the past 250 years (or more given how completely covered in architecture the island seems to be). and was likely underwater at the time she found the scepter. (she could have gone to Orr post-rise, but she probably wouldn’t have gone alone without being eaten by zombies, and again, Orr is completely barren aside from a few fungi and lichens.) I find it hard to believe that she did, in fact find it there.

I think you’re misremembering. Here is the location where Livia finds the Scepter. I wouldn’t say there’s much greenery visible there—it looks like she’s picking it up off a petrified log, there’s a mossy rock and a dead-looking shrub behind her; it’s hardly the Maguuma. It’s also worth noting that wherever she is appears to be waterlogged, to an extent.

If you watch a video of someone playing through Arah, there are locations everywhere that strongly resemble the location in that screenshot.

Hmm. I remember the video differently for some reason. I guess my memory has a tendency to brighten colors :/ That area looks rather shallow and clean, the moss green, there appear to be lush roots or maybe vines in the top right corner, and that single shrub, singular as it may be, looks awfully alive. It looks to me like either somewhere around Aurora Glade or the pre- Pale tree grove, but that all really could just be graphical differences. It’s not like GW1 actually had a map for Orr. Still though, it looks awfully calm for Orr, and was it ever mentioned that she even went to Orr after it arose? She definitely expressed her intent to while it was under water, but I was under the impression that people had only reached Orr through the legions of undead fairly shortly before you and the pact’s second assault team (or whatever) got there. I’m a little less sure it wasn’t Orr in that cutscene, because, like I said, not as green and vibrant as I remember, but I still find it a little hard to believe that’s where she got it.

Squee.7829:

Hmm. I remember the video differently for some reason. I guess my memory has a tendency to brighten colors :/ That area looks rather shallow and clean, the moss green, there appear to be lush roots or maybe vines in the top right corner, and that single shrub, singular as it may be, looks awfully alive. It looks to me like either somewhere around Aurora Glade or the pre- Pale tree grove, but that all really could just be graphical differences. It’s not like GW1 actually had a map for Orr. Still though, it looks awfully calm for Orr, and was it ever mentioned that she even went to Orr after it arose? She definitely expressed her intent to while it was under water, but I was under the impression that people had only reached Orr through the legions of undead fairly shortly before you and the pact’s second assault team (or whatever) got there. I’m a little less sure it wasn’t Orr in that cutscene, because, like I said, not as green and vibrant as I remember, but I still find it a little hard to believe that’s where she got it.

It’s definitely not Aurora Glade, and it doesn’t look like Ventari’s sanctuary to me either. If Livia went to Orr, my view is that she would have done so before it arose. She states her intent to go there directly after defeating the Great Destroyer, before even returning to Kryta, but since we don’t see any hint of the Scepter of Orr during the Krytan civil war, it is possible that this was retconned to happen later. Even still, I can’t see it taking place too far in the future. My stab-in-the-dark guess would be 1088 AE, almost a decade after the conclusion of the Krytan civil war, when Kryta is said to have been fully unified—we don’t really know the circumstances around that, and Livia’s whole motivation for finding the Scepter of Orr is so that she can bring an end to the Krytan civil war.

Anyway, as to whether she could have even reached Arah before the Dragonrise, given that, comparing a before and after map, Arah was mostly underwater at the time, I think it’s possible. Parts of it may have remained above-water, and even if they hadn’t, it’s not like we can’t explore sunken ruins on-foot. Getting to Arah wouldn’t have been a massive problem either; although in the first part of Sea of Sorrows we see that sunken Orr is regarded as a cursed place and avoided by sailors, the shattered peninsula has also been said to have been a popular hiding place for corsairs fleeing Istani law. In fact, it was their ships which comprised Zhaitan’s early navy. Orr became much more inaccessible after Zhaitan’s awakening, which is another reason to believe that Livia went there before.

That place looks like one of the mossy portions of a dungeon to me… has anyone tried to hunt that location down? I remember hearing once that ANet only used locations visible to the players in GW1 cutscenes.

Livia had to get the scepter before Orr rose, seeing how it rose 150ish years after EotN. Unless she found magical longevity through a means not Orrian tied. Also, Tamias, but I recall a much brighter and more panning in the cinematic itself. Whomever took that picture (was that you?) could have had settings to darken the scene when others didn’t have such (and I recall similar with other images from GW1 you’ve uploaded in the past).

And Aaron, yeah they used places that existed for cinematics but rarely they made places specially made for them – they did thus with Shrio’s flashbacks in Factions with the old Harvest Temple, at the least, so they could have done so for that scene too. But it is equally possible for the location to be found in GW1. Makes me wonder where it’d be if so…

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I recall a much brighter and more panning in the cinematic itself. Whomever took that picture (was that you?) could have had settings to darken the scene when others didn’t have such (and I recall similar with other images from GW1 you’ve uploaded in the past).

It was taken by me, but the brightness setting is such that the lighting in the screenshot is exactly the same as it appears in-game.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

That place looks like one of the mossy portions of a dungeon to me… has anyone tried to hunt that location down? I remember hearing once that ANet only used locations visible to the players in GW1 cutscenes.

As Konig said, fairly detailed locations have been built purely for cutscenes in the past. This one would have been relatively simple.

If it could have been found anywhere in-game, I’d have guessed would’ve been in the Shards of Orr somewhere. According to this map, the caverns known as the Shards of the Orr run across and beneath almost all of the Sea of Sorrows (the entrance from the Sea Rider’s Gate took you to the far left of the first level, and the entrance from Signal Peak took you to the far right). They’d have gone right beneath the Straits of Devastation, and as you can see from the video the sand in the Shards of Orr does seem to be very similar to that of the beaches of the Straits of Devastation. It does, however, look very different to both Malchor’s Leap and the Ruined City of Arah (which, as I’ve said, bears a close resemblance to Livia’s location in the cinematic).

I’ve been using past tense throughout this post but of course, Guild Wars does still exist :P so it’s perfectly possible to just go on an old fashioned expedition to hunt for the location. I don’t have the game installed anymore, though, and I think it probably is just a location created specifically for that cinematic.

Tamias/Santax (which would you prefer?), regarding the size of Shards of Orr, you’re forgetting something: we used an asura gate to get to Gadd’s Encampment from Shards of Orr. Just like how we got to the Central Transfer Chamber from the Battledepths, or from the Battledepths to the Heart of the Shiverpeaks – via asura gate (or for that matter, Heart of the Shiverpeaks and Bogroot Growths).

So you cannot properly measure the size of the dungeon based on that. And in fact, even if you overlaid the dungeon maps, placing exit to entrance, you still wouldn’t have an accountable size of the dungeon because instances like dungeons may not be the same scaling of size as the open world, knowing as we do that the open world is not as small as it seems from a lore-to-mechanics perspective (mechanically smaller than the lore size, lorically larger than the mechanics size) – and given that, even if you did put all the dungeon maps side-by-side overlaid on the open world map… the size of the dungeon maps may not, in lore, be the same scaling as the open world map – take, for example, Honor of the Waves, Crucible of Eternity, and Twilight Arbor in which the dungeons are larger than the open world placement of them).

And I really would avoid using Wooden Potatoes’ videos as much as you seem to do. He has a tendency to extrapolate things which are not quite so (or however you’d word it), like how you used to take Thruln the Lost’s wordings for absolute fact. As well as forget some things that are up on the wiki and sourced.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Tamias/Santax (which would you prefer?), regarding the size of Shards of Orr, you’re forgetting something: we used an asura gate to get to Gadd’s Encampment from Shards of Orr. Just like how we got to the Central Transfer Chamber from the Battledepths, or from the Battledepths to the Heart of the Shiverpeaks – via asura gate (or for that matter, Heart of the Shiverpeaks and Bogroot Growths).

So you cannot properly measure the size of the dungeon based on that. And in fact, even if you overlaid the dungeon maps, placing exit to entrance, you still wouldn’t have an accountable size of the dungeon because instances like dungeons may not be the same scaling of size as the open world, knowing as we do that the open world is not as small as it seems from a lore-to-mechanics perspective (mechanically smaller than the lore size, lorically larger than the mechanics size) – and given that, even if you did put all the dungeon maps side-by-side overlaid on the open world map… the size of the dungeon maps may not, in lore, be the same scaling as the open world map – take, for example, Honor of the Waves, Crucible of Eternity, and Twilight Arbor in which the dungeons are larger than the open world placement of them).

Tamias is fine. Santax is my ancestor’s name :P I’m aware that explorable areas and dungeons don’t necessarily use the same scaling; had Arbor Bay been the west entrance and Gadd’s Encampment been the east entrance, we would have been able to establish a scaling ratio (for that particular dungeon, at least), but you’re right in that I overlooked that the east entrance is via asura gate.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And I really would avoid using Wooden Potatoes’ videos as much as you seem to do. He has a tendency to extrapolate things which are not quite so (or however you’d word it), like how you used to take Thruln the Lost’s wordings for absolute fact. As well as forget some things that are up on the wiki and sourced.

The WP video above wasn’t linked for the lore content or anything; it was just the first video of the Shards of Orr that I could find that wasn’t a speedrun. An image wouldn’t have sufficed, since the environment can vary across the dungeon.

EDIT: Forgot to make clear the implications of my error. This means that, despite the name, the Shards of Orr are primarily off the Tarnished Coast, rather than toward Orr. What does that mean for the probability that part of the dungeon was used as a stand-in for Arah or wherever in Ogden’s Benediction? It’s difficult to say, since it’s a lot less clear-cut than before that the Shards of Orr have anything to do with Orr beyond a name.

On a slightly unrelated note, during A Vision of Darkness, you travel through an Orrian Mirror (found in a krait deeps?) to somewhere in Orr to rescue Tegwen. Has that location yet been positively identified as a part of Orr that we can explore in the open world? I ask because there is a later instance involving the Orrian Mirror: Shards of Orr, which of course seems to be a reference to the dungeon (although no reference is ever made explicit). Furthermore, during the quest where you go through the mirror, there are various Risen Pirates.

BONUS: The magic of the Orrian Mirror is not unknown to the Avatar of the Pale Tree. Probably nothing, still worth noting. Also: “[Hope is] a light in the darkness, a star to lead us home”. Sylvari = tengu minions confirmed?? Joking aside, I do think there is something in that the Pale Tree explicitly namedrops both a future personal story mission (probably just a cheeky bit of foreshadowing and a reminder that we should pay attention to personal story mission names, case in point “Shards of Orr”, unless the phrase “a light in the darkness” has some actual in-universe significance that I’ve missed) and this tengu(?) prophecy. Had it just been the latter, I would have ignored it, but since it’s part of a sentence which seems to already contain foreshadowing, it may be worth paying attention to. But anyway, back to the subject at hand.

I believe that’s south-east Cursed Shore.

Yeah, A Vision of Darkness as well as A Light in the Darkness steps utilize a hidden western part of the Grove map (which was found during dat diving before release) which is a copy of the southern half of Cursed Shore. A Vision of Darkness specifically focuses around Romke’s ship’s wreckage and Desmina’s Hallows.

The Personal Story step doesn’t involve the mirror, just Tegwen and Carys. The mirror is used later one though in Through the Looking Glass – the name of which is a reference to the Alice in Wonderland novel of the same name, and has us teleported to another place in Straits of Devastation in it. Shards of Orr does mention the mirror, but it holds no relation to it. The name seems to be more a reference to how the objectives is related to Orrians (specifically that champion) and two people who’ve been to Orr (Tegwen and Carys). However, I don’t think the name of steps have as much credence as you’re giving them, especially in trying to relate A Light in the Darkness or the line in A Vision of Darkness to the tengu prophecy since really it’s only in words that there’s a similarity, and the concept of light in darkness or a star of hope has been used even with Nightfall and is a very common concept.

And on that note of the stars. Given the heavy use of star foretelling in both Canthan and Elonian culture on top of tengu and jotun culture, I’m thinking that stars can be used in general to predict the outcomes of Tyria – not just things like Elder Dragon risings, like what the jotun did, but much more things. Elonian culture places stars as foretelling Varesh’s, Kormir’s, Abaddon’s, and the PC’s actions throughout Nightfall. None of which are tied to Elder Dragons obviously. So the tengu prophecy may hold zero relevance to the Elder Dragons.

Something to think about…

http://wiki.guildwars.com/images/8/81/Orr.jpg Is a map of Orr from GW1… And as you can tell, it has an area explicitly like Cursed Shore at the bottom. It even matches the landscape somewhat (with Temple of Grenth being on a small island nearby. Basing that vs Gw2’s map, parts of Arah may have been above water? Or parts of that region. True it’s implied that that area was entirely underwater and rose up at once (it’s where Romke shipwrecked after all)… but in GW1 it looks like at least part of that region was above sea-level.

Well, if you go back to GW1, there are scattered islands around the area, and I think even in Sea of Sorrows there’s mention of above-water portions of Orr. In Romke’s case, he and his crew probably thought they were safely away from islands and any low seabeds until they were caught by surprise by a rising seabed.

In terms of appearance of the area – keep in mind that the Orr we see is post-corruption, and above-sea-level portions of Orr dating back to GW1 would probably have had a similar tropical climate to the surrounding regions. Thus, the appearance of the area in the cutscene does not rule out the scepter being found in Orr. However, as has been stated before, all we can really say for certain is that it’s a tropical wetland that we cannot otherwise visit in GW1 – whether it’s Orr or somewhere else, we don’t know for sure either way.

I feel that the following exchange from The Dragon’s Reach: Part 2 gives me cause to revive this thread (emphasis mine):

Countess Anise: “This envy of your older siblings ill becomes you. You’d do well to find a way past it.”
Countess Anise: “I think you overestimate the value of being first. A windfallen fruit has never appealed to me as much as one left on the bough to ripen.”
Canach: “You do keep those blades of yours keen, Countess.”
Countess Anise: “Forgive my meddling, petal. It’s just that I see such potential in you.”
Canach: “Petal? I fear you’ve only employed me in order to sharpen your wit—or work on your plant puns. Why not prove me wrong and tell me your true purpose?”
Countess Anise: “All in good time.”
Canach: “Do you treat everyone you encounter like children?”
Countess Anise: (laugh) “You are a delicate flower, aren’t you? So easily bruised…”
Canach: “I have a thick skin. I also learn from my missteps. For example, you fooled me once with your illusions, so now I wonder if you’re truly as young as—”
Countess Anise: “Do not finish that sentence. Not here, not ever.”
Canach: “At last, a substantial response.”
Countess Anise: “Yes, well. You would be wise to remember your place and check that tongue of yours.”
Canach: “When will you tell me why you’ve brought me here?”
Countess Anise: “I’m trying to decide if I can trust you out in the field. I mean, after that nasty business on Southsun. Tsk.”
Canach: “Regardless of what you may believe, I was trying to free those refugees from the Consortium’s exploitation.”
Canach: “I went about it…poorly. Criminally. And I answered for my crimes.”
Countess Anise: “Your intentions in that affair, whether noble or not, aren’t what concern me. It’s your failure to evade capture.”
Canach: “I beg your pardon?”
Countess Anise: “Noble intentions don’t interest me. What I need is a sharp instrument. A knife that can be employed before anyone realizes it’s struck.”
Canach: “Show me where to cut, Countess, and I will be your blade.”

This is the most direct allegation yet that Anise uses magic to mask her true age, and we also get to see her reaction to it.

Defensive indeed, she’s hiding something big. But, of course, we already knew that. It does seem to hint slightly at that she might be Livia.

All her dialogue made me happy, it was very interesting to see her more involved. Defensive about her age indeed, but of course you should never ask a woman that..

I recently saw a comparison picture of Anise and a certain gw1 character when the locketinfo came about in Episode 2. It was a comparison to the new model for Salma… And it was eerily similar. Would explain why the locket would be hidden away, if it shows Anise aka Salma…

Her attitude regarding Canach, how she doesn’t care about his past but instead is disappointed by his failures, reminds me somewhat of Livia’s personality.

While it’s of course not done to ask a woman her age like that, there’s just something in that dialogue that hints at more. She’s getting more mysterious by the minute! And now also with that locket from an earlier episode ..

Never saw this thread before, really interesting theory.

There was another very strange line from Anise when said she would be very sad (or something similar) if Jennah died, when you’d have thought she would be utterly devastated and distraught.

If we were looking for plots within plots, I suppose there is a possibility that Anise was seen meeting Scarlet in DR after all and she’s using us to silence the witnesses. I assume she’d never be clumsy enough to let herself be seen doing that though, given her disguises in this chapter.

It’s also strange that she’s getting information from Mr E. How can Mr E be more secretive and more knowledgeable about DR than super spymaster Anise? I wouldn’t be surprised if Mr E was actually at that party so that would narrow the candidates down quite a lot.

What I also found interesting, was the sentence she spoke to Kasmeer, about nobility. Perhaps my tinfoil hat appeared suddenly, but that struck me as rather peculiar coming from a countess. Also, we went back to the countess – who we know is loyal, from the PS – to see if she was actually speaking the truth. That seemed as if it just served to make us as players wonder about her motives, in case we didn’t pick up on other hints.

Also, E! Wasn’t the player character the only one who received correspondence from E until now? Mysterious ..

Stooperdale.3560:

There was another very strange line from Anise when said she would be very sad (or something similar) if Jennah died, when you’d have thought she would be utterly devastated and distraught.

If we were looking for plots within plots, I suppose there is a possibility that Anise was seen meeting Scarlet in DR after all and she’s using us to silence the witnesses. I assume she’d never be clumsy enough to let herself be seen doing that though, given her disguises in this chapter.

It’s also strange that she’s getting information from Mr E. How can Mr E be more secretive and more knowledgeable about DR than super spymaster Anise? I wouldn’t be surprised if Mr E was actually at that party so that would narrow the candidates down quite a lot.

My theory is that Mr. E is Lord Faren. He is almost always around these important events for the humans. Basically Lord Faren = Bruce Wayne, Mr. E = Batman.

Gaebriel.3754:

What I also found interesting, was the sentence she spoke to Kasmeer, about nobility. Perhaps my tinfoil hat appeared suddenly, but that struck me as rather peculiar coming from a countess. Also, we went back to the countess – who we know is loyal, from the PS – to see if she was actually speaking the truth. That seemed as if it just served to make us as players wonder about her motives, in case we didn’t pick up on other hints.

Also, E! Wasn’t the player character the only one who received correspondence from E until now? Mysterious ..

Marjory was contacted first by him. He probably has a wide range of contcats to… contact.

Gaebriel.3754:

What I also found interesting, was the sentence she spoke to Kasmeer, about nobility. Perhaps my tinfoil hat appeared suddenly, but that struck me as rather peculiar coming from a countess. Also, we went back to the countess – who we know is loyal, from the PS – to see if she was actually speaking the truth. That seemed as if it just served to make us as players wonder about her motives, in case we didn’t pick up on other hints.

Also, E! Wasn’t the player character the only one who received correspondence from E until now? Mysterious ..

E also has corresponded with Marjory during the Dragon Bash incident. I think she called him our mutual friend.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I recently saw a comparison picture of Anise and a certain gw1 character when the locketinfo came about in Episode 2. It was a comparison to the new model for Salma… And it was eerily similar. Would explain why the locket would be hidden away, if it shows Anise aka Salma…

I like that more than the Livia plot (Livia becoming a mesmer doesn’t feel right to me, obviously someone who lived for 250+ years had time to learn a second profession though). Still, Salma was a monk, not a mesmer. Again, 250 years is enough time to learn to dual class, but how did she live so long? We know why Livia lived long beyond normal human years, it’s a bit of a stretch to also have Salma do the same.

Doesn’t this idea also rely on no-one ever looking at the locket, or anyone who does being sworn to total secrecy (or worse)? For as long as the locket has existed no-one has ever taken a peak at it? I don’t buy that.

For all we know this was just a tongue in cheek line to make fun of people thinking Anise was anything but a natural beauty.

Honestly, wasn’t Salma rather tanned, like Jennah is, and not super pale like Anise is?

Though I picked up on that line and figured she is older then she looks, but I doubt she is Livia.

If she was, that means that when Jennah was in REAL danger in the human PS from the risen, she did nothing and sat back instead of using her powers (apparently in sea of sorrows) to simply wipe out the Risen.

Livia was far more tanned than Salma was.

It is somewhat intriguing. I'm not even completely sure whose side Anise is on - what legitimate reason does she have for sending Canach to spy on the Pact's preparations? Sure, there could be something – it seems like an obvious thing thrown in there to confuse players – but she’s definitely up to something… something that for some reason needs to be a secret.

Sirius.4510:

It is somewhat intriguing. I'm not even completely sure whose side Anise is on - what legitimate reason does she have for sending Canach to spy on the Pact's preparations? Sure, there could be something – it seems like an obvious thing thrown in there to confuse players – but she’s definitely up to something… something that for some reason needs to be a secret.

The dialogue indicates that Canach is supposed to be an assassin for Countess Anise.
I think that he will join our group sooner or later. The question still stands who Anise wants to be assassinated. So no clue on which side she’s really on.

But I want to point out that she gets really mad when Canach asks her about her age, so that could be a hint too.

On Anise’s motives for sending Canach into the Pact…

It could well just be an exercise in verifying that the Pact remains a friend to Kryta. While some recent scandals show that it’s bad manners to be caught, the truth is that allies spy on one another all the time on a ‘trust, but verify’ basis.

It’s also interesting that she’s willing to give him that mission right in front of a senior, if not necessarily active, Pact officer. That suggests that whatever she’s up to, she’s not all that concerned about the Pact knowing she has an agent within their ranks. It might even be another test – if Canach can avoid being caught out by the lower-ranking Pact members, he can be given an assignment that’s a little more sensitive.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I recently saw a comparison picture of Anise and a certain gw1 character when the locketinfo came about in Episode 2. It was a comparison to the new model for Salma… And it was eerily similar. Would explain why the locket would be hidden away, if it shows Anise aka Salma…

That’s an… interesting possibility. I could certainly see Livia having made Salma an additional beneficiary of her extended lifespan, but Salma couldn’t hold the throne indefinitely without raising questions… so at some point she fakes her own death and starts watching over her descendants as part of the Shining Blade.

We could even have Salma, Livia, and possibly others trading off public leadership of the Shining Blade, so they can avoid positions of one person having to play multiple roles (instead of Livia trying to pretend to be both the Master Exemplar and the successor, one can be the master and the other can be the apprentice, trading roles when appropriate…)

Niloc.4365:

My theory is that Mr. E is Lord Faren. He is almost always around these important events for the humans. Basically Lord Faren = Bruce Wayne, Mr. E = Batman.

Gooooooooood point. There’s a tradition of secret heroes that pretend to be fops in public that goes back to the Scarlet Pimpernel… and possibly earlier.

Eluveitie.1290:

Gaebriel.3754:

What I also found interesting, was the sentence she spoke to Kasmeer, about nobility. Perhaps my tinfoil hat appeared suddenly, but that struck me as rather peculiar coming from a countess. Also, we went back to the countess – who we know is loyal, from the PS – to see if she was actually speaking the truth. That seemed as if it just served to make us as players wonder about her motives, in case we didn’t pick up on other hints.

Also, E! Wasn’t the player character the only one who received correspondence from E until now? Mysterious ..

Marjory was contacted first by him. He probably has a wide range of contcats to… contact.

Ah thanks! Totally forgot about that!

http://wiki.guildwars.com/images/0/0b/Salma.jpg Salma’s final model.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/1/19/Countess_Anise.jpg Anise

I’m sorry, but I don’t see anything instantly similar besides them having red hair. Not even the same shade really, Salma is more of a brown-red, with light brown skin while Anise is very pale and with pure red hair.

“E” obviously stands for Evennia >_>

In all seriousness, does anyone know the general consensus of the community regarding who is “E”?

After this episode I have to add Anise to the list of possible candidates for E.

Anise being the same person as salma is aninteresting idea. As for jennah, who are her parents ? The family tree doesnt show how she connects with the royal family. What if anise is the actual queen, and jennah is an illusion?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tyrian_royalty_family_tree

Anise is always staying close to jennah afterall… Since birth.

Tamias.7059:

I feel that the following exchange from The Dragon’s Reach: Part 2 gives me cause to revive this thread (emphasis mine):

Countess Anise: “This envy of your older siblings ill becomes you. You’d do well to find a way past it.”
Countess Anise: “I think you overestimate the value of being first. A windfallen fruit has never appealed to me as much as one left on the bough to ripen.”
Canach: “You do keep those blades of yours keen, Countess.”
Countess Anise: “Forgive my meddling, petal. It’s just that I see such potential in you.”
Canach: “Petal? I fear you’ve only employed me in order to sharpen your wit—or work on your plant puns. Why not prove me wrong and tell me your true purpose?”
Countess Anise: “All in good time.”
Canach: “Do you treat everyone you encounter like children?”
Countess Anise: (laugh) “You are a delicate flower, aren’t you? So easily bruised…”
Canach: “I have a thick skin. I also learn from my missteps. For example, you fooled me once with your illusions, so now I wonder if you’re truly as young as—”
Countess Anise: “Do not finish that sentence. Not here, not ever.”
Canach: “At last, a substantial response.”
Countess Anise: “Yes, well. You would be wise to remember your place and check that tongue of yours.”
Canach: “When will you tell me why you’ve brought me here?”
Countess Anise: “I’m trying to decide if I can trust you out in the field. I mean, after that nasty business on Southsun. Tsk.”
Canach: “Regardless of what you may believe, I was trying to free those refugees from the Consortium’s exploitation.”
Canach: “I went about it…poorly. Criminally. And I answered for my crimes.”
Countess Anise: “Your intentions in that affair, whether noble or not, aren’t what concern me. It’s your failure to evade capture.”
Canach: “I beg your pardon?”
Countess Anise: “Noble intentions don’t interest me. What I need is a sharp instrument. A knife that can be employed before anyone realizes it’s struck.”
Canach: “Show me where to cut, Countess, and I will be your blade.”

This is the most direct allegation yet that Anise uses magic to mask her true age, and we also get to see her reaction to it.

She could have just been telling Canach not to flirt with her in public.

Countess Anise being Gwen is a possibility?

And who is this cat Shadow, who’s now over 30 years old. Another illusion?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I recently saw a comparison picture of Anise and a certain gw1 character when the locketinfo came about in Episode 2. It was a comparison to the new model for Salma… And it was eerily similar. Would explain why the locket would be hidden away, if it shows Anise aka Salma…

This theory runs into all the same problems that the Anise = Livia theory does, but also a few more. Salma is trained as a monk, for one. And she doesn’t share any of the attributes that Anise does with Livia. Personality-wise, Anise has nothing in common with Salma. And there’s nothing circumstantial to suggest it, either.

Besides, Anise’s appearance alone isn’t a suitable basis for a theory of this nature, since she was disguised as a sylvari during the World Summit. Not that, imo, she particularly looks like Salma to begin with.

Changing professions is not as strange as you may think. Someone as underwhelming as Kieran Thackeray did it once. Livia/Salma are far superior to that poor excuse for a Ranger/Paragon.

It could be evidence, a red herring, or just the writers poking fun at the forumites. I was surprised when one of the nobles in that mission brought up the fact the queen walks around barefoot. I know that was a bit of a joke going around the forum awhile ago.

scary lady, she seems to like to make people owe her. she’s planting a spy in the pact at fort trinity and now she’s gonna plant another spy in your party, kasmeer

rate me theory