Guild Wars 2

The interesting thing, well one of many, that I took away from Scarlet’s final pieces of dialogue was the suggestion that Tyria would “bow before a new Master”.

Many have speculated that this new Master is the Jungle Dragon Mordremoth, however I feel this to be a misguided assumption. The Elder Dragons have been described as “forces of nature” who “gorge themselves upon the magic of the world, then return to slumber”. Does that sound like the kind of villain who lusts for world domination? Each one of them seeks nothing more than to drain Tyria of it’s magic. Not once is there a mention of Zhaitan’s desire to enslave the members of Lion’s Arch or any other city. Jormag merely displaced the Norn and Kodan, likewise with the mysterious Sea Dragon, and Primordus has been actively exterminating the living-stone dwarves for centuries now. Furthermore, there’s the seeming perception that none of the Elder Dragons viewed any of the advanced races of Tyria as a threat, merely creatures populating the world upon which they were feeding. Even when confronted with the knowledge that it’s enemies possessed the means to do him harm, Zhaitan’s efforts against the pact were remarkably simple and straightforward. He merely expanded until resistance was met, then brought overwhelming force to bear upon it until a breach was made.

It’s also important to note that in all other cases when an Elder Dragon “corrupted” enemy figures, these beings were little more than mindless minions who performed relatively simple tasks. There was very little autonomy given to any of them, certainly nothing that even remotely comes close to the elaborate and sophisticated plans Scarlet has devised. Some might speculate that in the wake of Zhaitan’s death other Elder Dragons may take a more strategic approach, however the idea that a sleeping Dragon would possess this depth of knowledge (Zhaitan required undead minions actively “turning” the enemy to gain strategic intelligence) is a kittene to swallow.

Scarlett definitely saw something in Omadd’s machine. It seems clear that whatever protection was afforded to her by the Dream was destroyed by her experience which allowed something “else” to speak directly into her mind. That “other” intends to rule Tyria, not devour it. That “other” desired the awakening of Mordremoth, the final Elder Dragon who, along with it’s brethren, would continue their millennia old tradition of consuming all the magic on Tyria and then return to slumber. If the Dragons succeed, magic would once again fade from Tyria for thousands of years. If the Pact succeeds, than the cycle would be broken and magic users need never fear the loss of their abilities.

The question I ask myself is this: who benefits from both outcomes? Who benefits most from playing both sides against each other as Scarlett intends?

Then I remembered. Centuries ago there was a race of beings who fled Tyria before their magic could be devoured. A race of beings who possessed the exceptional magical ability to use all forms of magic, not just the single aspects available to magic wielders in the civilizations today. A race of beings who manipulated, who enslaved, who lurked behind the scenes for centuries in order to see their plans carried through.

And one among them fled to the Tarnished Coast just a few centuries ago, to recover and vow revenge against “countless generations” of Tyrians who have followed his disgrace and the destruction of his people. A being of immense power who was already well practiced at turning the races of Tyria against each other. A world where only he, and the surviving members of his people, could wield magic would be an easy one to conquer. Even should the races of Tyria prevail they would be sorely tested to resist them now that the Gods have turned away from the world and the path to Ascension no longer possible.

I’m speaking of course, of Lazarus the Dire and the return of the Mursaat.

More to come as I follow up this theory and elaborate.

A master and ruler are two different definitions. Surely a ruler can also be regarded as a master. And a master can be a ruler. But the difference between them is that a ruler owns land, while a master owns people.

At least that’s how i look at it. From scarlet’s point of view, the sylvari’s master until now would be the pale tree. The new master for the sylvari could thus now become mordremoth. Of course that’s just guessing. Maybe she just talks big and just tells us all to bow down and submit to mordy.

Cael.3960:

The Elder Dragons have been described as “forces of nature” who “gorge themselves upon the magic of the world, then return to slumber”. Does that sound like the kind of villain who lusts for world domination?

Did I miss something in current living world update? When did Scarlet share some details on supposed Tyria new master’s plans and intentions, personal traits and et cetera? I don’t get how you made that conclusion.

Cael.3960:

Each one of them seeks nothing more than to drain Tyria of it’s magic. Not once is there a mention of Zhaitan’s desire to enslave the members of Lion’s Arch or any other city.

Oh, yes, a mere force of nature. Let me remind you of what minions of these forces of nature, namely, Zhaitan’s mouths, say.

After all three Orrian Towers are destroyed
Mouth of Zhaitan: “Another meal for my master.”
Mouth of Zhaitan: “Insects. You’ve chosen a terrible time to be heroes.”
Mouth of Zhaitan: “Stagger before the power of the dragon.”

That’s just the simpliest of examples. Zhaitan mentions Tybalt and threatens you during the heart of the Orr mission, by the way. Too much personality for just a force of the nature.

Cael.3960:

It’s also important to note that in all other cases when an Elder Dragon “corrupted” enemy figures, these beings were little more than mindless minions who performed relatively simple tasks.

Examples, please. Low-tier minions are, in fact, no more than a mindless pawns. But are we talking about lowest-tier minions here?

And why do you, people, tend to forget about Glint? Which, in fact (and that’s important!) was killed for the betrayal.
/sarcasm on
Yes, I surely remember an earthquake destroying a tectonic plate last monday for betraying it, mhm.
/sarcasm off

Cael.3960:

There was very little autonomy given to any of them, certainly nothing that even remotely comes close to the elaborate and sophisticated plans Scarlet has devised.

Implying all dragons do and are the same thing. Hint: no, they are not the same. The way they produce minions, corrupt and all that jazz are different. Your assumptions are logical, but superficial.

Cael.3960:

Scarlett definitely saw something in Omadd’s machine.

What she thinks she saw: The Eternal Alchemy, nature of Dream and Nightmare, perhaps Mordremoth.
What she saw in fact: supposedly, that the Pale Tree made a ‘firewall’ to prevent her offspring, Sylvari, from Mordremoth’s influence. Turning off the ‘firewall’ brings the attention of the Elder Dragon, and from that moment, it consumes Caera’s mind, slowly. Or instantly, leaving less and less space for Caera’s former self in these florabrains.

Cael.3960:

… the final Elder Dragon

Wait, what?

Cael.3960:

The question I ask myself is this: who benefits from both outcomes? Who benefits most from playing both sides against each other as Scarlett intends?

Nobody.

Cael.3960:

I’m speaking of course, of Lazarus the Dire and the return of the Mursaat.

Pretty far-fetched, I daresay. Nothing suggests it.

Consider your theory debunked: dragon minions do praise their Elder Dragons in some way or another while showing some degree of intelligence; Zhaitan showed some kind of consciousness, even human emotions, one could say. Yes, that’s all.

Except that your whole theory is debunked if you are playing an engineer and you go to the control panels on the breach maker. It states in the text dialogue that Scarlet’s real target all along was a dragon. There’s no real other way to interpret that.

Aethelbert.1497:

I don’t get how you made that conclusion.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elder_Dragon Under Nature and physiology and again in the first description of the subject.

Aethelbert.1497:

Oh, yes, a mere force of nature. Let me remind you of what minions of these forces of nature, namely, Zhaitan’s mouths, say. … Too much personality for just a force of the nature.

I can only assume this is meant to demonstrate that an Elder Dragon has a “personality” and thus can’t also be a “force of nature” due to possessing one. I feel I should point out that the two are not mutually exclusive.

Aethelbert.1497:

Examples, please. Low-tier minions are, in fact, no more than a mindless pawns. But are we talking about lowest-tier minions here?

And why do you, people, tend to forget about Glint? Which, in fact (and that’s important!) was killed for the betrayal.
/sarcasm on
Yes, I surely remember an earthquake destroying a tectonic plate last monday for betraying it, mhm.
/sarcasm off

Implying all dragons do and are the same thing. Hint: no, they are not the same. The way they produce minions, corrupt and all that jazz are different. Your assumptions are logical, but superficial.

Sarcasm aside, I will concede there is some value in that discussion. Most of the Elder Dragon minions are mindless pawns given some basic “programming” and then left to their own devices. You can see this much in Orr, where farmers and undead animals carry on the behaviors they experienced in life when these things can neither benefit themselves or Zhaitan in death until a player character approaches. The Champions and unique minions (Eyes, mouths, etc) are a different matter. These are entities the Dragons have invested significant time and attention toward, and it stands to reason that their own degree of personal autonomy is held rigidly in check. They are too valuable to be left to their own devices, both as tools and as potential targets. I argue that because of this value the Elder Dragons are always present within them, observing their actions in real time, ready to dominate their minds if the situation necessitates this. In that light they, while able to voice unique dialogue, can be equally mindless when directly controlled.

It stands to reason that the Elder Dragons, who each possess a different elemental nature, would not necessarily pursue their goals in the same fashion. However, from what we have seen of them so far there is an unsubtle undercurrent of brute force. Jormag, Primordus, Zhaitan, Kralkatorik and the deep sea Dragon have all displaced the native races of Tyria by advancing fronts with waves of corrupted minions. Targeted strikes upon individuals or specific locations that are not already present on the advancing edge of the invasions has yet to occur. During the “Forging the Pact” story quest the Risen were already present in Timberline Falls, not far from where the Rubicon was found.

Aethelbert.1497:

What she thinks she saw: The Eternal Alchemy, nature of Dream and Nightmare, perhaps Mordremoth.
What she saw in fact: supposedly, that the Pale Tree made a ‘firewall’ to prevent her offspring, Sylvari, from Mordremoth’s influence. Turning off the ‘firewall’ brings the attention of the Elder Dragon, and from that moment, it consumes Caera’s mind, slowly. Or instantly, leaving less and less space for Caera’s former self in these florabrains.

It is not explicitly stated that Scarlett saw Mordremoth while in Omadd’s machine. All that is mentioned is that she witnessed what she believed to be the Eternal Alchemy, the nature of the Dream and Nightmare along with a brief conversation with the Pale Tree and a mysterious “other” that saw her in turn.

Aethelbert.1497:

Wait, what?

The final Elder Dragon to awaken. There, some context for you. I guess that wasn’t made sufficiently clear.

Aethelbert.1497:

Nobody.

Clearly tl;dr had applied at this point. My explanation specificly addressed this in the post above.

Aethelbert.1497:

Pretty far-fetched, I daresay. Nothing suggests it. Consider your theory debunked: dragon minions do praise their Elder Dragons in some way or another while showing some degree of intelligence; Zhaitan showed some kind of consciousness, even human emotions, one could say. Yes, that’s all.[/

You’re entitled to your opinion, though you should be aware that a dismissive attitude will be returned in kind. I’ll wait for future LS updates before deciding whether this theory has been “debunked” rather than trust your own judgement, if you please.

Zelkovan.2630:

Except that your whole theory is debunked if you are playing an engineer and you go to the control panels on the breach maker. It states in the text dialogue that Scarlet’s real target all along was a dragon. There’s no real other way to interpret that.

Actually the text states that the drill was meant to disrupt the leylines beneath Tyria, nothing more. Scarlet may indeed have had designs on a dragon, but to what end is mere speculation at this point. Nothing yet has been confirmed.

Cael.3960:

Zelkovan.2630:

Except that your whole theory is debunked if you are playing an engineer and you go to the control panels on the breach maker. It states in the text dialogue that Scarlet’s real target all along was a dragon. There’s no real other way to interpret that.

Actually the text states that the drill was meant to disrupt the leylines beneath Tyria, nothing more. Scarlet may indeed have had designs on a dragon, but to what end is mere speculation at this point. Nothing yet has been confirmed.

No, he is correct. If you take an engineer profession in and look at the controls it will tell you directly that her aim was the dragon afterall. This dialogue is different from the dialogue that other professions get, much like a Priory member will get certain dialogues that a Vigil or Whispers member won’t. I suggest you take an engi in if you have the opportunity.

Cael.3960:

Zelkovan.2630:

Except that your whole theory is debunked if you are playing an engineer and you go to the control panels on the breach maker. It states in the text dialogue that Scarlet’s real target all along was a dragon. There’s no real other way to interpret that.

Actually the text states that the drill was meant to disrupt the leylines beneath Tyria, nothing more. Scarlet may indeed have had designs on a dragon, but to what end is mere speculation at this point. Nothing yet has been confirmed.

https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/139397/gw592.jpg

Cael.3960:

Sarcasm aside, I will concede there is some value in that discussion. Most of the Elder Dragon minions are mindless pawns given some basic “programming” and then left to their own devices. You can see this much in Orr, where farmers and undead animals carry on the behaviors they experienced in life when these things can neither benefit themselves or Zhaitan in death until a player character approaches. The Champions and unique minions (Eyes, mouths, etc) are a different matter. These are entities the Dragons have invested significant time and attention toward, and it stands to reason that their own degree of personal autonomy is held rigidly in check. They are too valuable to be left to their own devices, both as tools and as potential targets. I argue that because of this value the Elder Dragons are always present within them, observing their actions in real time, ready to dominate their minds if the situation necessitates this. In that light they, while able to voice unique dialogue, can be equally mindless when directly controlled.

I actually disagree on the portion in the bottom. I highly doubt that Zhaitan is constantly directly monitoring the thoughts and actions of his champions. While they may possess some/most of their past memory and possibly even their soul, they seem to have been utterly bent to his will. Basically, they keep all of the aspects of their life that do not conflict with Zhaitan’s will, and everything else (everything inbetween) is filled with a passion or desire to do the dragon’s bidding. They are basically brainwashed into thinking that Zhaitan’s will is the best for everything.

As an amendment for many followers of the Mordremoth theory, a kindly messenger suggested taking a second look into what Vorpp said at the Dead End.

Player Character: "When Scarlet looked across the open threshold, she saw things. And something looked back.
Vorpp: Ceara encountered something that literally broke her mind, but the only things in there were things she brought.
Vorpp: I surmise she was directly exposed to a part of her own psyche that had been carefully walled off. Perhaps for her own protection?
Vorpp: We’d need to do far more extensive study of the sylvari Dream before I could draw any more-detailed conclusions.

This piece of cannon, to my mind, is probably the strongest evidence supporting the idea that that the Sylvari are minions of Mordremoth and that the Dream of the Pale Tree is the only thing preventing them from returning under his control.

However this is problematic when we take into account the unique case of Malyck and the second Tree. Malyck claims not to feel the Dream, only a “great sense of distance, and loss”. Trahearn speculates that this second Tree may not possess a Dream at all. If that is the case, this second Tree may represent the Sylvari in an unaltered state, and if true it might mean that the Dream and it’s corruption is something unique to the Pale Tree’s children. If the Sylvari are naturally minions of Mordremoth it stands to reason that Malyck, who is not protected by the Dream, would already be one of them yet this does not seem to be the case. If Ceara needed the protection of the Dream to be removed before being corrupted by Mordremoth, it should have been a much easier matter for Malyck’s unshielded mind to have been corrupted as well.

It makes me wonder just what it was that was walled off in Ceara’s psyche that found an expression in Omadd’s machine. And perhaps more importantly, whether this part of the psyche was unique to Ceara herself or is something found in all Sylvari. Right now most assume all Sylvari carry this dark seed inside their mind because Ceara did, that might not be the case.

Cael.3960:

Aethelbert.1497:

I don’t get how you made that conclusion.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elder_Dragon Under Nature and physiology and again in the first description of the subject.

Yes, and it states that Tyrians view them as forces of natue. Zephyrites, namely, are the first and only (IIRC) to mention that in-game.

Cael.3960:

Most of the Elder Dragon minions are mindless pawns given some basic “programming” and then left to their own devices.

Reminds me of Brave New World. But they – deltas, epsilons and co. are still a pretty much relevant part of the state in the novel – just as lowest-tier minions of Elder Dragons. They are part of an organism, and do their part.

Cael.3960:

Targeted strikes upon individuals or specific locations that are not already present on the advancing edge of the invasions has yet to occur.

Advancing edge of invasions? Forces of nature have them, you say?
/sarcasm on
Yes, yet to occur.
/sarcasm off

Cael.3960:

It is not explicitly stated that Scarlett saw Mordremoth while in Omadd’s machine. All that is mentioned is that she witnessed what she believed to be the Eternal Alchemy, the nature of the Dream and Nightmare along with a brief conversation with the Pale Tree and a mysterious “other” that saw her in turn.

That’s the reason I said ‘supposedly’.

Cael.3960:

Clearly tl;dr had applied at this point. My explanation specificly addressed this in the post above.

And this explanation is far-fetched. Nothing suggests it at this point. Mursaat are supposedly extinct, nothing mentions them as alive in-game, IIRC. It’s your ‘hypothesis’, ergo it needs to have premise and evidence base to become a full theory.

Cael.3960:

You’re entitled to your opinion, though you should be aware that a dismissive attitude will be returned in kind. I’ll wait for future LS updates before deciding whether this theory has been “debunked” rather than trust your own judgement, if you please.

Do you realise that I am not the only person that says your theory has no premise and evidence base, while in-game it’s clearly stated (screenshot attached) that dragon was her goal all along, ergo it’s debunked?

Thank-you Narcemus and Zelkovan, lacking an engineer I haven’t found that specific screen shot yet. You’re definitely right that Scarlett had designs on the dragon, though other than drawing it’s attention and awakening it we’re not sure what her goal was.

It’s a little strange to think of Mordremoth using her as an alarm clock though. If we assume each of the Elder Dragons required a Champion to assist in their awakening (the Great Destroyer, Glint, Tequatl, Drakkar, for example), it’s strange that the Jungle Dragon didn’t have one active before Ceara entered Omadd’s machine and became Scarlett. Considering the strange case of Malyck, I can’t say with confidence that Ventari’s Tablet and the Pale Tree were the only thing keeping Mordremoth asleep until now.

All this discussion makes me want to find that Machine and toss another Sylvari in just to add more data points for comparison.

Cael.3960:

However this is problematic when we take into account the unique case of Malyck and the second Tree. Malyck claims not to feel the Dream, only a “great sense of distance, and loss”. Trahearn speculates that this second Tree may not possess a Dream at all. If that is the case, this second Tree may represent the Sylvari in an unaltered state, and if true it might mean that the Dream and it’s corruption is something unique to the Pale Tree’s children. If the Sylvari are naturally minions of Mordremoth it stands to reason that Malyck, who is not protected by the Dream, would already be one of them yet this does not seem to be the case. If Ceara needed the protection of the Dream to be removed before being corrupted by Mordremoth, it should have been a much easier matter for Malyck’s unshielded mind to have been corrupted as well.

It makes me wonder just what it was that was walled off in Ceara’s psyche that found an expression in Omadd’s machine. And perhaps more importantly, whether this part of the psyche was unique to Ceara herself or is something found in all Sylvari. Right now most assume all Sylvari carry this dark seed inside their mind because Ceara did, that might not be the case.

We do not know what is the purpose of Sylvari, nor do we know how a generic Mordremoth minion-pawn would act. From what we know already, Elder Dragons have a elemental theme to them, as well as some sort of set of traits that tied to them as well: in case of Jormag, it’s power, strengh and strong will, in case of Zaithan it’s lies, fear and anger. It’s arguable, but what if Mordremoth’s ‘theme’ is intelligence and curiosity? Just an assumption. Which comes from Sylvari’s natural curiosity and the fact that they may be tied to Mordy in some way. Plus, the Malyck story arc happens before (not sure, though) Caera hops in Omadd’s cube, and we don’t know at which point Mordy became active during his sleep (as Prim did with Great Destroyer), so it’s unclear what’s happening to other ‘Pale Trees’ now. And who said that Malyck was honest?

Yet, Vorpp mentions the Dream of Dreams, and I think he does it for a reason. If it wasn’t important, he wouldn’t mention it at all. As the Living World progresses, it’s characters tend to be right about what they speak, especially if it’s an asura who’s talking. :3

Aethelbert.1497:

I don’t get how you made that conclusion.

Thanks for your continued interest, keep tuned for more!

Cael.3960:

The Elder Dragons have been described as “forces of nature” who “gorge themselves upon the magic of the world, then return to slumber”. Does that sound like the kind of villain who lusts for world domination? Each one of them seeks nothing more than to drain Tyria of it’s magic.

Sea of Sorrows, pages 425-426, said by Captain Whiting, champion of Zhaitan:

“The rule of the living has ended. This is the time of the Elder Dragons. Thus begins the time of Zhaitan and Orr. he day of their ultimate victory is close.”

Frostgorge Sound, said by the Frost Portal skill challenge:

“Strength alone governs this world. Embrace Jormag, and you will gain power beyond belief.”

Do these sound like the sayings of beasts who seek nothing but consuming magic? They’re very much out to rule, either their own means of doing so.

Cael.3960:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elder_Dragon Under Nature and physiology and again in the first description of the subject.

Uh…

1. The wiki is written by the playerbase, and thus subject to error.
2. The wiki stated described as. As in, compared to. As in they are not forces of nature but are compared to such often.

I will clarify this for you. The Elder Dragons are not forces of nature. They are compared to such – both in-game and by developers – but not said to be one and the same. Furthermore, they’re compared to forces of nature for two reasons: Firstly, they are immensely powerful and are capable of causing – or in some cases, becoming – forces of nature (though this should be viewed as a super-high-level Tornado skill by elementalists and the like). Secondly, they are amoral. They just don’t give a kitten who they hurt or how, just like forces of nature don’t care.

The Elder Dragons are not compared because they’re mindless or the like, which is the common misconception.

Cael.3960:

The Champions and unique minions (Eyes, mouths, etc) are a different matter. These are entities the Dragons have invested significant time and attention toward, and it stands to reason that their own degree of personal autonomy is held rigidly in check. They are too valuable to be left to their own devices, both as tools and as potential targets.

Due to the ingrained fanaticism present in all speaking sentient dragon minions, one can argue that they are left to their own devices, especially given the constant statements that the Elder Dragons just don’t care. To quote Jeff Grubb about the state of Sons of Svanir killing any female norn who’s corrupted by icebrood:

Jormag doesn’t care. Jormag really does not care. It’s as if ants that are going off, the red ants and the black ants, that’s nice.
http://guildmag.com/magazine/issue9/interview.htm

Cael.3960:

I argue that because of this value the Elder Dragons are always present within them, observing their actions in real time, ready to dominate their minds if the situation necessitates this. In that light they, while able to voice unique dialogue, can be equally mindless when directly controlled.

Dragon minions are always tied mentally to their respective Elder Dragon – and all of them equally. http://www.guildwars2guru.com/uploads/gallery/album_163/gallery_3318_163_39486.png There would thus be no case of them being “equally mindless when directly controlled” because – unlike Harbinger with the Collectors in Mass Effect 2, there is no assuming direct control.

Cael.3960:

It stands to reason that the Elder Dragons, who each possess a different elemental nature, would not necessarily pursue their goals in the same fashion. However, from what we have seen of them so far there is an unsubtle undercurrent of brute force. […] During the “Forging the Pact” story quest the Risen were already present in Timberline Falls, not far from where the Rubicon was found.

I disagree that there’s no personality or different methods seen. Rather than repeat myself of old research, here is some old, now outdated more than likely, research on the matter using the Elder Dragons’ minions and their methods of corruption as a basis. And there’s more than just “brute force” involved, especially with Jormag and Zhaitan.

I suppose I should revisit that theory, now that we have more on Mordremoth (especially since then, more has been discovered!).

Also, it’s not the Tome of Rubicon that was found during Forging the Pact.

Cael.3960:

Thank-you Narcemus and Zelkovan, lacking an engineer I haven’t found that specific screen shot yet. You’re definitely right that Scarlett had designs on the dragon, though other than drawing it’s attention and awakening it we’re not sure what her goal was.

It’s a little strange to think of Mordremoth using her as an alarm clock though. If we assume each of the Elder Dragons required a Champion to assist in their awakening (the Great Destroyer, Glint, Tequatl, Drakkar, for example), it’s strange that the Jungle Dragon didn’t have one active before Ceara entered Omadd’s machine and became Scarlett. Considering the strange case of Malyck, I can’t say with confidence that Ventari’s Tablet and the Pale Tree were the only thing keeping Mordremoth asleep until now.

All this discussion makes me want to find that Machine and toss another Sylvari in just to add more data points for comparison.

Elder dragons don’t need a champion to wake up. It hastens their awakening, but they don’t need them. Primordus’ champion The Great Destroyer was defeated at the end of GW1, which delayed his awakening, but he still woke up. Zhaitan and Kralkatorrik woke up on their own. Now did Mordremoth want Scarlet so he could wake up faster? Who knows; we certainly don’t.

Many are beginning to think that the Sylvari from the Pale tree just have a “filter” against corruption from the Elder dragons (the Dream of Dreams) and that is why they can’t be corrupted. Malyeck and his Tree don’t have the Dream of Dreams (it is stated in PS) so perhaps they are vulnerable to corruption. If you search around the forums you’ll find posts on it.

Cael.3960:

It’s a little strange to think of Mordremoth using her as an alarm clock though. If we assume each of the Elder Dragons required a Champion to assist in their awakening (the Great Destroyer, Glint, Tequatl, Drakkar, for example), it’s strange that the Jungle Dragon didn’t have one active before Ceara entered Omadd’s machine and became Scarlett.

Tequatl wasn’t what woke Zhaitan and there’s actually nothing to imply it was around when Zhaitan woke, in fact – or as far as I know (perhaps you know something I don’t?). As far as we know, Kralkatorrik and Zhaitan were both without an “alarm clock” – however, it should be noted that the Maw (featured only in Sea of Sorrows novel) may have been a risen even before Zhaitan’s rise; and the Giganticus Lupicus fought in Arah explorable was from the previous rise too.

However, who’s to say the jungle dragon doesn’t have a champion? It’s hinted that the Blighted in Wychmire Swamp may be tied to Mordremoth, thus making the Great Jungle Wurm a champion of his.

Aethelbert.1497:

It’s arguable, but what if Mordremoth’s ‘theme’ is intelligence and curiosity? Just an assumption. Which comes from Sylvari’s natural curiosity and the fact that they may be tied to Mordy in some way.

Everything the Elder Dragons’ “personalities” show results in hostility. Intelligence and curiosity… don’t.

Aethelbert.1497:

Plus, the Malyck story arc happens before (not sure, though) Caera hops in Omadd’s cube, and we don’t know at which point Mordy became active during his sleep (as Prim did with Great Destroyer), so it’s unclear what’s happening to other ‘Pale Trees’ now. And who said that Malyck was honest?

All of the personal story happens in 1325 AE. Ceara was in the machine before 1321 AE. Evidence:

Scarlet Briar: Ever since I came out of Omadd’s machine, you’ve been taking credit for my ideas. They are mine! Not yours.
Scarlet Briar: Let me be clear. I’m not doing this for you; I’m doing it for me. Nobody tells me what to do. Not ever.
Scarlet Briar: It’s not true. None of it. I don’t have to listen to you. Get out of my head!
Marjory Delaqua: I wonder if the voices in her head are real? What if what she saw in Omadd’s machine grabbed hold of her?
Marjory Delaqua: Scarlet rejected the Pale Tree because she wanted independence. What if Omadd’s machine cost her that?
Marjory Delaqua: Ironic that she rejected the Pale Tree to exert her independence, only to lose it to something else.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Dead_End:_A_Study_in_Scarlet

In said instance, her journal’s also dated 1321 to 1323.

Aethelbert.1497:

Yet, Vorpp mentions the Dream of Dreams, and I think he does it for a reason. If it wasn’t important, he wouldn’t mention it at all. As the Living World progresses, it’s characters tend to be right about what they speak, especially if it’s an asura who’s talking.

Which would be the perfect time for Anet to toss in a red herring under the guise of a figure’s guessing on something fully unknown to them.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Everything the Elder Dragons’ “personalities” show results in hostility. Intelligence and curiosity… don’t.

Inquest is strongly disagree with your statement.
What I mean is intelligence and curiosity can be much dangerous without morals. You argue just to argue, I got it.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Which would be the perfect time for Anet to toss in a red herring under the guise of a figure’s guessing on something fully unknown to them.

You are obsessed with red herrings and conspiracy. I think you need to relax and take a deep breath. And stop make me laughing, most importantly.

A pleasure to hear another point of view, Konig Des Todes.

As you’ve stated, the minions of the Elder Dragons possess a fanatic devotion to their Masters. It may be that the minions themselves perceive the vision of their Master ruling over Tyria while their Master’s do not.

Quote Jeff Grub and Jormag

True, the wiki is written by the player base and is subject to errors, omissions and should not be taken as a primary source. It is a fine appendix for for hunting down those primary sources however, which is why I posted the link. However, at no point have I stated as fact that the Elder Dragons are forces of nature, merely that they have been described as such. Other than the destruction of advanced civilizations upon their awakening and the consumption of magic, there has been little else to suggest at their motivations. I make no judgement on whether or not a force of nature can possess sentience or even higher intelligence, it seems equally possible to me that they may be brilliant or mindless. Are Elder Dragons forces of nature? Possibly, they may represent a form of balance that exists within the Eternal Alchemy. Or they may be a Tyrian version of the Reapers, crushing advanced civilizations before their use of magic disrupts the balance. Or they may simply be fantasized versions of Godzilla that awaken and act on instinct until such instincts are satisfied. Either theory is possible, there isn’t enough evidence to elevate one significantly above the other unless opinion is the final deciding factor.

The “alarm clock” analogy was more about suggesting a purpose for Scarlett than to state as fact that the Elder Dragons required champions to awake them. I’m wondering how much longer Mordremoth would have slept before the events of the Battle for Lion’s Arch caused his awakening. If he percieved it would be decades before he could rise to confront the Pact and the other Elder Dragons, would that threat be enough to cause him to reach out for a new champion rather than summon an existing one?

Of course, this all assumes that it was Mordremoth who spoke to Scarlett in the first place. All we know is “something” did, and Vorpp speculates that whatever it was existed within Ceara before she entered the Machine. It may be Mordremoth who lurked behind the barrier of Ceara’s psyche, or it might be some other inner demon that the Pale Tree walled off. Vorpp may even be wrong, though I admit anything said in game stands as “truth” until it’s explicitly revealed as a lie in later content patches.

Aethelbert.1497:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Everything the Elder Dragons’ “personalities” show results in hostility. Intelligence and curiosity… don’t.

Inquest is strongly disagree with your statement.
What I mean is intelligence and curiosity can be much dangerous without morals. You argue just to argue, I got it.

I hadn’t considered Inquest, so good point there. Still, compared to “lies” and “power to overcome the weak” and obtaining all things (Kralkatorrik) or genocide (Primordus, seemingly) – intelligence and curiosity feel… tame.

Aethelbert.1497:

You are obsessed with red herrings and conspiracy. I think you need to relax and take a deep breath. And stop make me laughing, most importantly.

How am I obsessed with red herrings and conspiracy? Hah! The ones obsessed with conspiracy are those saying sylvari are dragon minions! That’s one hell of a tinfoil hat theory if I’ve ever heard one.

Besides, I mention a possible red herring once and I’m obsessed with them? Good one. No, not really.

I always hold the stance of “what is said is truth until otherwise contested” – and Vorpp is uncontested, but he’s very general too. All he shows, while uncontested, is that the entity (identity unknown still) was present when Scarlet went into the machine, and that her change in persona/the entity getting to her is tied to the Dream of Dreams.

Cael.3960:

I make no judgement on whether or not a force of nature can possess sentience or even higher intelligence, it seems equally possible to me that they may be brilliant or mindless.

Elder Dragons know everything their minions know. They know their minions’ thoughts, their actions, their memories from before corruption even.

They’ve corrupted countless living beings from countless civilizations over several millenniums.

I think that’d make them pretty kitten smart, to be honest.

Cael.3960:

The “alarm clock” analogy was more about suggesting a purpose for Scarlett than to state as fact that the Elder Dragons required champions to awake them. I’m wondering how much longer Mordremoth would have slept before the events of the Battle for Lion’s Arch caused his awakening.

The Elder Dragons typically awoke 50 years from each other. Though of this, Jormag had woken early thanks to Drakkar and the Sons of Svanir, and Primordus attempted to wake early via the Great Destroyer (he was pushed back, but no one knows when he would have woke when untouched).

What I find interesting about Scarlet’s last words is the specificity of the words she uses. In no uncertain terms, Scarlet says, Tyria, all of it (although world or continent is not specific), will bow before a new Master, in the singular form. I don’t know if you care for speculation, but thats I what I want to do here, speculate on the information we have on Scarlet. Make some theories, wonder if it is even remotely correct, or just interesting to ponder.

I know the other champions echo similar words, but has there ever been a champion that phrased such threats/praise as such? Scarlet seems to know what she is saying, that is kinda her personality, I guess. And I don’t think she would use the singular form if she didn’t believe Mordre would be indeed the singular ruler of Tyria. And I don’t think anyone in the world of Tyria would be unaware that multiple elder dragons exist, all vying for portions of the continent/world of Tyria. Very unlikely Scarlet would only know about Mordre. It seems that Scarlet is extremely confident in such an outcome, despite knowledge of the other dragons.

Scarlet claims to understand some sort of grand design in the world. So I wonder if Scarlet has understands the cycles between the the days of the ‘living’ and the dragons. Scarlet is very interested in systems and cycles and the cycle of dragons and magic is one of the ‘grandest’ systems in Tyria. Is it possible that the systems, Scarlet talks about in the short story “What Scarlet Saw,” is in fact, the systems that cause the elder dragons to rise, consume magic, then become dormant? Is there any reason to believe that she is talking about anything else? Scarlets says she wants to destabilize some grand system. And in the end, we know, she has shove a huge prod at the dragons. Are these two facts related? I think so. But to answer that question for sure we have to ask, is Scarlet’s goal from Omadd’s lab the same as her goals at her very end?

So, what was her goal at the very end? Mordremoth will rule over Tyria. What was her goal at the beginning at Omadd’s lab? Some grand design will be unraveled and destroyed. Hmmm… so are those goals complimentary? I say, yes. If Mordre is to become the ruler of Tyria, something seemingly extraordinary has to happen with the elder dragons. It would have to push the other dragons out of the picture and claim all the magical energies for himself. At least, that is what I believe would have to happen. What we know, in, a normal cycle involve the dragons awakening, consume magic, then inevitably go back to being dormant. Now, I don’t know if there is much information about why or how the Elder Dragons decide to go back to sleep, but it doesn’t seem there is much room for ruling in there. Mordre may want to shake things up. If Zhaitan’s defeat is a sign of things to come, this dragon cycle has already gone awry. Probably isn’t something that the system can’t recover from, but being off balance makes it more vulnerable to being tampered with.

Mordremoth and Scarlet are aligned in objectives. That is why Scarlet is helping it. Mordre tells Scarlet, that id wants to destroy it’s endless servitude to the cyles of magic and Scarlet say, great idea! Of course, if that is indeed how Mordre presented itself to Scarlet, that could be a line in an of itself. We know nothing about the nature of Mordremoth’s minions or armies. Perhaps Mordremoth can corrupt the minds of his army through deceit and the mind, rather than physically changing them. Break people down through dreams of a horrible nature like Scarlet’s, and then turn around with an offer/explanation that bring’s it’s minions around to it’s side permanently. Scarlet may have been on to something, until she way swayed by Mordre and a false solution. Or maybe prodding Mordre with a massive stream of magic is in fact a viable solution preventing the destruction of Tyria.

Of course, there are many possible ways to explain Scarlet’s actions in relation to the dragons. Simpler ones are that she is simply becomes wholly controlled by Mordremoth with no will for her prior goals. But with how much details we have been told about Scarlet’s motivation before and after her madness. About intricate systems, and breaking them down to exploit weaknesses and destroy them. I think, at the very least, the writers at Arena Net, are at the least, setting up hints, ideas, and mechanisms for which the elder dragons, and the almost guaranteed (near) destruction of Tyria, can be stopped.