Guild Wars 2

As seen by Cheese Mode winning tournament after tournament, the double warrior comp is still superior.

8% nerf to healing signet is insufficient to change this.

Put simply: the developers are completely wrong thinking warriors are in a good place, or only need a small adjustment.

He’s right though and it’s pretty obvious. Without other changes on top of the 8% on healing signet it isn’t going to change much of anything. It’s a minor shave on one part of the problem.

Rednik.3809:

Aberrant.6749:

He’s right though and it’s pretty obvious. Without other changes on top of the 8% on healing signet it isn’t going to change much of anything. It’s a minor shave on one part of the problem.

So you are from the future too and already know all balance patchnotes for all classes? Mind to share?

Every time they’ve done their proposed changes or there have been leaked notes, were there any major unexpected changes? No… So should we expect it this time? No…

Feel free to keep living in your own little world of denial though.

Rednik.3809:

Aberrant.6749:

He’s right though and it’s pretty obvious. Without other changes on top of the 8% on healing signet it isn’t going to change much of anything. It’s a minor shave on one part of the problem.

So you are from the future too and already know all balance patchnotes for all classes? Mind to share?

The current developers have said they are going to reduce HS by 8% and buff the active heal. That’s inadequate.

Please, its not even a nerf that 8% is like 38healing per a second. That is nothing. Then you get onto the fact that the Active will be buffed WAY more than 8%. At the very least it should heal every 3seconds rather than every 1 second

But the class as a whole is in need of fixing, not to shocking that the Devs all just so happen to play the most broken class in the game while all the counters Warriors had were slowly reduced and removed.

Thedenofsin.7340:

As seen by Cheese mode winning tournament after tournament, the double warrior comp is still superior.

8% nerf to healing signet is insufficient to change this.

Put simply: the developers are completely wrong thinking warriors are in a good place, or only need a small adjustment.

Actually, I wouldn’t be so sure.

In a bygone age when 0 10 0 30 30 tanky DPS bunker Elementalist was still dominating, people also said that putting a 5 second ICD on Cleansing Water would not be enough to limit the build’s efficacy against conditions sticking. Developer response was that it was a significant change in their internal testing.

The community wanted more to be done, and in subsequent patches, more was done. Yet the end result was that Elementalist was over-nerfed and is now too squishy to conditions.

One can say the same thing to Necromancer pre-Dhuumfire or Spirit Ranger before the traits were amalgamated.

I think we’ll have to wait and see. The Cleansing Ire/Adrenal Healing/Healing Signet/Burst Mastery combo is pretty OP right now, but I think that as long as Healing Signet is nerfed, the combo will be significantly weaker due to less sustain. Multiple-variable systems like these are difficult to tweak without collapsing them entirely – Elementalist survivability is one such example of a collapse.

My only problem with the 8% nerf is that it isn’t happening now. When the 8% nerf hits, it will be along with the Sigil and Rune reworks. That paradigm alone will “wash out” the effects of the HS nerf and make it difficult to determine whether it was too much or too little.

In fact, I’m willing to bet that due to the possibility of Warriors being able to get 2 on swap procs every 5 seconds in March, community outrage will grow, and further nerfs to Warrior will be called for. It’ll be interesting to see what Arenanet’s response will be – whether we get another weak-as-Elementalist out of the deal or a new OP FOTM will depend greatly on what is discovered in the coming months.

Personally, I reckon that when Warriors are nerfed, the classes it was keeping down – Necromancer, Engineer – will become the next top dog. I’m sure we’ll see the “nerf Incendiary Powder/Grenade Kit/Necro Marks/Signet of Spite so OP” threads pop up soon.

It’s at points like these when I simply think if it were not better to just go the DOTA route and make everything OP in their own way. Earthshaker CC, Tiny’s autoattacks, Invoker’s ludicrous number of spells, Tusk’s one hit KO Walrus punches, Lina’s spike damage, Enigma’s teamfight, Anti-mage’s snowballing ability – these are all multiple-variable systems that interact in new and interesting ways.

With Arenanet constantly tweaking new FOTM builds and traits as they are discovered and inadvertently destroying embryonic builds on the edge of viability, it’s no wonder that each profession has their own “OP” traitline that nearly every build uses for viability:

• Elementalist – Arcana
• Engineer – Explosives
• Guardian – Virtues
• Mesmer – Illusions
• Necromancer – Curses
• Ranger – Wilderness Survival
• Thief – Critical Strikes
• Warrior – Discipline

I think that at some stage, Arenanet will have to return to the unused and ignored traits before everyone is stuck with only 1 build per profession and everything else is unviable. Things are unused and ignored for a reason; yet if Arenanet only tweaks that which is “meta” at the expense of everything else, we may yet see a meta as stale as the current one in the coming months and years.

Reduce healing signet by more than 8% and nobody will use it anymore, everyone will go adrenal surge. Burst heals are still superior to regen heals.

In PvP the most used build is the hambow, because it has a lot of area pressure, but low mobility. So ideal in PvP. This build makes maximum use of the cleansing ire, which can remove quite a few conditions. So the only nerf I would add to make the warrior more in line with others is putting a 7s CD on cleansing ire.

But cleansing ire CD + 8% HS nerf is all the class need. If you still get owned by warriors after that means you have a learn2play issue.

Lets wait it out first, and see what the actual nerfs to the heal sig do. Right now i do play a warrior in tpvp, and i agree it’s slightly broken with the amount of regen you’re able to attain. The change to the healsig should nerf this slightly without going completely overboard. If they want to nerf warrior regen they should look at regenerating banners first, imo.

I personally think that the adrenaline gain on cleansing ire is too much. It’s unlike every trait that I have ever seen.

MonMalthias.4763:

In a bygone age when 0 10 0 30 30 tanky DPS bunker Elementalist was still dominating, people also said that putting a 5 second ICD on Cleansing Water would not be enough to limit the build’s efficacy against conditions sticking. Developer response was that it was a significant change in their internal testing.

The community wanted more to be done, and in subsequent patches, more was done. Yet the end result was that Elementalist was over-nerfed and is now too squishy to conditions.

Adding an ICD to something that did not have one previously is a far larger nerf than an 8% reduction in effect. With that said, we’ll never know if the nerf to cleansing water was going to be sufficient (or too much) by itself.

Tim.6450:

I personally think that the adrenaline gain on cleansing ire is too much. It’s unlike every trait that I have ever seen.

You do know warrior has had that trait since beta right? And it was adept tier aswel, it got moved to master when they added the condition removal factor to it.

@MonMalthias,

You have some good points. However, with elementalists it was the nerfs and the emergence of the condition meta that really drove them into the dirt.

But the reality, however harsh, is that not having 1 profession in the meta is better than having 2 of the same in the meta.

And warriors right now are every bit as strong as elementalists were back when 2xele was dominant.

At least with Dhuumfire, it was extremely detrimental to run double Necromancer on a team because increasing the shortcomings Necromancers brought to the team outweighed the benefit they provided.

With all that sustain, condition removal, damage immunity, etc, warriors don’t have any shortcomings, so bringing two of them simply helps the team.

In a game where sitting on a point is the most important aspect of the game, giving a class this much sustain, without introducing some other weakness, is disruptive.

If you run 2xthieves, you’re too squishy.
If you run 2xmesmers, you’re too squishy.
If you run 2xguardians, you don’t do enough dps and lose mobility.
If you run 2xnecro’s, you’re too susceptible to CC.
etc.

You run 2xwarriors, none of that stuff applies.

MiLkZz.4789:

Reduce healing signet by more than 8% and nobody will use it anymore, everyone will go adrenal surge. Burst heals are still superior to regen heals.

And that’s so bad because…. why?

Thedenofsin.7340:

MiLkZz.4789:

Reduce healing signet by more than 8% and nobody will use it anymore, everyone will go adrenal surge. Burst heals are still superior to regen heals.

And that’s so bad because…. why?

Because they want to make the warrior a regen based class and it wouldn’t be beneficial if they nerfed healing signet back into dirt tier with everyone using adrenal surge again. Kinda would have failed your idea then.

MonMalthias.4763:

I think that at some stage, Arenanet will have to return to the unused and ignored traits before everyone is stuck with only 1 build per profession and everything else is unviable. Things are unused and ignored for a reason; yet if Arenanet only tweaks that which is “meta” at the expense of everything else, we may yet see a meta as stale as the current one in the coming months and years.

What about GW1 GvG?
PS they never did that. They kept that one build and simply slightly altered it each month to make a new but still exactly the same FOTM.

Paulie.6215:

When will you all realize? Warrior is their pet class. It will always be beyond superior to all other classes. Don’t bother complaining. Anet is just laughing knowing they’re not going to do a thing to nerf the warrior.

after months of pvping and looking at patch notes, i start to believe that

That’s probably the case. Perhaps they are just catering to the baddies out there, hoping the baddies will open their wallet and keep them afloat.

a 32 HPS nerf is about 640 less HPS per 20 seconds. I guarantee if other classes had their heals nerfed by 640 HPS or even 8% there would be a lot of whining and complaining on the forums.

If warrior are the pet class then why were they the worst class at launch and for a good 10 months? It took them 10 months to do anything significant for this class. And it took them so long to tone down other classes.

Ever since launch all we have ever seen are nerfs to damage. We got nerfed last patch and now we are getting nerfed next patch.

2 things I have learned:

#1: People complain about everything
#2: ANet will eventually do something drastic according to the amount of people and amount of complaining.

And besides, people said 8% isn’t enough. And it’s likely that it isn’t the only thing that they will nerf because they haven’t released all of the changes. They also said that 8% wasn’t definite.

With Arenanet constantly tweaking new FOTM builds and traits as they are discovered and inadvertently destroying embryonic builds on the edge of viability, it’s no wonder that each profession has their own “OP” traitline that nearly every build uses for viability:
•Elementalist – Arcana
•Engineer – Explosives
•Guardian – Virtues
•Mesmer – Illusions
•Necromancer – Curses
•Ranger – Wilderness Survival
•Thief – Critical Strikes
•Warrior – Discipline

This seems to suggest that ANET actually is doing better at least on classes I know well.
The engineer has plenty of specs that don’t require explosives. In fact, having only 10 pts or no pts in explosives is quite common if not using grenades.

The ranger uses wilderness survival simply because it has empathic heal which is their core condition cleanse. But it is being tied to the pet being alive so builds will quickly move away from simply having 30 in it.

But you are correct that the warrior is OP and needs a significant nerf.

killahmayne.9518:

a 32 HPS nerf is about 640 less HPS per 20 seconds. I guarantee if other classes had their heals nerfed by 640 HPS or even 8% there would be a lot of whining and complaining on the forums.

They shouldnt be nerfing HS because its balanced, but because its not. 640 less healing on a balance heal sucks, but on HS…

HS is 60% more healing/sec then my bandage self, a bog standard 20sec cd self-heal with no fancy tricks whatsoever. 60%

If theyd buff that to the levels of HS after its 8% nerf id be really happy. As it stands, even after the nerf HS is still way more efficient, and thats when we conveniently forget about arenanet saying theyd compensate for the nerf. Meaning its not really a nerf at all.

MiLkZz.4789:

Tim.6450:

I personally think that the adrenaline gain on cleansing ire is too much. It’s unlike every trait that I have ever seen.

You do know warrior has had that trait since beta right? And it was adept tier aswel, it got moved to master when they added the condition removal factor to it.

I now realise that I phrased this wrong what I meant was this:
I personally think that clearing conditions and gaining the adrenaline is too much. I haven’t seen a single trait that demands a resource but also gives an extra way too gain it.

Thedenofsin.7340:

…
Put simply: the developers are completely wrong thinking warriors are in a good place, or only need a small adjustment.

Or they are right, but all the other classes are in a bad place and need major adjusts. (to be on par with a warrior)

;) depends on how you look at things…

They may pull that “Change people’s perception” thing again and in addition to a slight nerf to HS, add something like weapon evades and blinds to warriors and make them even more frustrating to fight.

But I think others have the right idea, it’s probably not that warriors need nerfs so much as other classes need buffs (and in cases like the ranger major class overhaul and major change) to be up to par. Skill should definitely be more rewarding vs. warriors though, and it’s hard to hit that mark when you can time a heal interrupt because it’s all passive.

MiLkZz.4789:

Because they want to make the warrior a regen based class

Oh, yeah, I hear Anet talk about how they want me to play warrior all the time. “Hey guys, use regen, it’s how we want you to play the Warrior. If anyone doesn’t use HS, let them know they’re playing Warrior wrong. Because there’s only one way to play a profession. K thx bye.”

Get that crap outta here.

On topic, what builds are these Warrior duos running? Let’s narrow the problem down instead of using such broad terms.

Zero Day.2594:

Thedenofsin.7340:

…
Put simply: the developers are completely wrong thinking warriors are in a good place, or only need a small adjustment.

Or they are right, but all the other classes are in a bad place and need major adjusts. (to be on par with a warrior)

;) depends on how you look at things…

Well lets look at what we know arenanet is going to do.

-Elementalist, buff.
-Engineers, nerf.
-Guardian, nerf.
-Mesmer, nerf.
-Necro, nerf
-Ranger, nerf (lol?)
-Thief, nerf.

Hell, most of these nerfs are bigger then the nerf to Warrior. Which has already been promised compensation for the slight HS nerf.
So it seems Arenanet honestly believes that Warriors are fine, Ele’s are slightly underpowered and everyone else is overpowered.

Just another reason to not take the current balance team serious.

killahmayne.9518:

I guarantee if other classes had their heals nerfed by 640 HPS or even 8% there would be a lot of whining and complaining on the forums.

Because all of the other professions don’t have over-powered heals, the highest base HP and armor in the game, a whole utility bar of immunity skills, very efficient and frequent condition cleansing, all in combination with consistent and high DPS.

Their complaints would be warranted. The Warrior’s are not. It’s over-powered.

Terrahero.9358:

Zero Day.2594:

Thedenofsin.7340:

…
Put simply: the developers are completely wrong thinking warriors are in a good place, or only need a small adjustment.

Or they are right, but all the other classes are in a bad place and need major adjusts. (to be on par with a warrior)

;) depends on how you look at things…

Well lets look at what we know arenanet is going to do.

-Elementalist, buff.
-Engineers, nerf.
-Guardian, nerf.
-Mesmer, nerf.
-Necro, nerf
-Ranger, nerf (lol?)
-Thief, nerf.

Hell, most of these nerfs are bigger then the nerf to Warrior. Which has already been promised compensation for the slight HS nerf.
So it seems Arenanet honestly believes that Warriors are fine, Ele’s are slightly underpowered and everyone else is overpowered.

Just another reason to not take the current balance team serious.

You know… “Balance” could mean that it’s “balanced” around the warrior class… Say it’s in the center… each other class “specializes” in something (thief for instance, WvW roaming), leading away from the center… and in the center is the warrior that can do everything..

Faranox.4217:

MiLkZz.4789:

Because they want to make the warrior a regen based class

Oh, yeah, I hear Anet talk about how they want me to play warrior all the time. “Hey guys, use regen, it’s how we want you to play the Warrior. If anyone doesn’t use HS, let them know they’re playing Warrior wrong. Because there’s only one way to play a profession. K thx bye.”

Get that crap outta here.

On topic, what builds are these Warrior duos running? Let’s narrow the problem down instead of using such broad terms.

No one is using broad terms: HS is overpowered.

period.

8% is not enough. You cannot make a game based upon standing on a node then give one profession no weaknesses, the most armor, great damage and the highest sustain and expect it to be balanced. That’s just dumb.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Please, its not even a nerf that 8% is like 38healing per a second. That is nothing. Then you get onto the fact that the Active will be buffed WAY more than 8%. At the very least it should heal every 3seconds rather than every 1 second

But the class as a whole is in need of fixing, not to shocking that the Devs all just so happen to play the most broken class in the game while all the counters Warriors had were slowly reduced and removed.

And there is where you lose all credibility for your argument.

fellyn.5083:

And there is where you lose all credibility for your argument.

They were in one of the videos saying they all play warrior. Based on current situation, would suggest that is true. Look at all the things that WERE a threat until they got “balanced”

Do they play other classes? Who knows, i mean it is very doubtful based on how they are so bad at buffing and balancing other classes (Dhuumfire springs to mind instantly)

I think it was a few months back, around the time of the terrible new heals that were introduced

you’d think the world was coming to an end… lol

how about they fix the lag first.. oh wait, wrong forum

Zero Day.2594:

Terrahero.9358:

Zero Day.2594:

Thedenofsin.7340:

…
Put simply: the developers are completely wrong thinking warriors are in a good place, or only need a small adjustment.

Or they are right, but all the other classes are in a bad place and need major adjusts. (to be on par with a warrior)

;) depends on how you look at things…

Well lets look at what we know arenanet is going to do.

-Elementalist, buff.
-Engineers, nerf.
-Guardian, nerf.
-Mesmer, nerf.
-Necro, nerf
-Ranger, nerf (lol?)
-Thief, nerf.

Hell, most of these nerfs are bigger then the nerf to Warrior. Which has already been promised compensation for the slight HS nerf.
So it seems Arenanet honestly believes that Warriors are fine, Ele’s are slightly underpowered and everyone else is overpowered.

Just another reason to not take the current balance team serious.

You know… “Balance” could mean that it’s “balanced” around the warrior class… Say it’s in the center… each other class “specializes” in something (thief for instance, WvW roaming), leading away from the center… and in the center is the warrior that can do everything..

If that’s the case, I’d uninstall right away and never look back. That would be a horrible way to describe balance – one profession is the ‘best’, and all the others are second-class citizens.

I remember a long time ago ANet said they wanted a game where you wouldn’t be able to tell who would win before the match started.

Now, you can: the team with the most warriors wins an overwhelming majority of the time.

It’s not fun.

Thedenofsin.7340:

If that’s the case, I’d uninstall right away and never look back. That would be a horrible way to describe balance – one profession is the ‘best’, and all the others are second-class citizens.

Some classes still dream of second citizenship outside of sPvP comrade.
Now back to Necromancer gulag before glorious ANet come looking for me.

I suppose you’re right. I have little faith this game will get any better. Look what happened last time: players screamed and yelled about how Warriors were dominant in PVE and WvW. ANet listened and responded by making them dominant in tPvP too.

If they aren’t going to fix things, then they should just give warriors Stealth and be done with it.

Thedenofsin.7340:

Zero Day.2594:

Terrahero.9358:

Zero Day.2594:

Thedenofsin.7340:

…
Put simply: the developers are completely wrong thinking warriors are in a good place, or only need a small adjustment.

Or they are right, but all the other classes are in a bad place and need major adjusts. (to be on par with a warrior)

;) depends on how you look at things…

Well lets look at what we know arenanet is going to do.

-Elementalist, buff.
-Engineers, nerf.
-Guardian, nerf.
-Mesmer, nerf.
-Necro, nerf
-Ranger, nerf (lol?)
-Thief, nerf.

Hell, most of these nerfs are bigger then the nerf to Warrior. Which has already been promised compensation for the slight HS nerf.
So it seems Arenanet honestly believes that Warriors are fine, Ele’s are slightly underpowered and everyone else is overpowered.

Just another reason to not take the current balance team serious.

You know… “Balance” could mean that it’s “balanced” around the warrior class… Say it’s in the center… each other class “specializes” in something (thief for instance, WvW roaming), leading away from the center… and in the center is the warrior that can do everything..

If that’s the case, I’d uninstall right away and never look back. That would be a horrible way to describe balance – one profession is the ‘best’, and all the others are second-class citizens.

I remember a long time ago ANet said they wanted a game where you wouldn’t be able to tell who would win before the match started.

Now, you can: the team with the most warriors wins an overwhelming majority of the time.

It’s not fun.

Better be hitting that delete button then, just look at the upcomming profession changes. Basicly what arenanet said is: “Ele needs buff, Warrior is fine, everyone else is OP and needs nerf”. Thats their stance.

Just, look. Professions who are worst off, far less played, get nerfed much harder across all gamemodes then Warriors who dominate every single gamemode.

Its a sad state we are currently in.

Arenanet balances around spvp. And the spvp crowd is entirely convinced arenanet has no idea whats going on in spvp.
So WvW and PvE gets balanced around faulty assumptions of a 5v5 conquest-mode.

Thats just peachy…