Guild Wars 2

So i was thinking, retaliation is kind of used to counter direct long chain attacks but what if we had a new Boon that while active would send the conditions BACK to the person that sent them to you?

Some classes would need better access to it due to being much weaker against it but if they added a Boon that did this sort of thing, do you think it would go a way to countering the Condition spam that some condition classes use to kill people? Because it would be harder to spam someone to death with conditions if they are being sent back at you…

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

So i was thinking, retaliation is kind of used to counter direct long chain attacks but what if we had a new Boon that while active would send the conditions BACK to the person that sent them to you?

Some classes would need better access to it due to being much weaker against it but if they added a Boon that did this sort of thing, do you think it would go a way to countering the Condition spam that some condition classes use to kill people? Because it would be harder to spam someone to death with conditions if they are being sent back at you…

a Necro wont have to hard of a time since we have several ways to remove/xfer conditions.
Other condi classes will die off.

Brando.1374:

a Necro wont have to hard of a time since we have several ways to remove/xfer conditions.
Other condi classes will die off.

Used to stop the “free kill” button that is Signet of Spite would go a long way to making the class a lot more balanced to fight against. I have seen Necro melt people using that skill and then die to the same class the moment they don’t use it.

So if that sort of condition burst had a counter, as with most condition builds of the likes of Thief, Engineer, Warrior and Mesmer then maybe, just maybe it would go a way to ridding us of this condition spam, spam, spam and people might just start using these conditions at the right time to get better effect.

Spite only applies two bleeds and a poison for damage. People calling out Signet of Spite as OP don’t realize just how little damage it actually does. The biggest advantage Spite has is its one of the longest applications of cripple in the game. Other than that, Spite is only good for covering bleed stacks. This game already has enough condition removal. Heaven forbid necromancers actually have a way of being allowed to keep their damage conditions on a target for a change.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Brando.1374:

a Necro wont have to hard of a time since we have several ways to remove/xfer conditions.
Other condi classes will die off.

Used to stop the “free kill” button that is Signet of Spite would go a long way to making the class a lot more balanced to fight against. I have seen Necro melt people using that skill and then die to the same class the moment they don’t use it.

So if that sort of condition burst had a counter, as with most condition builds of the likes of Thief, Engineer, Warrior and Mesmer then maybe, just maybe it would go a way to ridding us of this condition spam, spam, spam and people might just start using these conditions at the right time to get better effect.

I agree with finding a way to get rid of the “free kill” SoS that many complain about. Only bad thing about that is if all those conditions are sent back to us(necro’s), we can use them to heal us lol.

as for the condi spam, Yes. many condi players are just so used to spam spam spam dumbfire iwin situation we are in. I actually like to prey on those players in duels because of what you mentioned…they just spam and dont use their conditions at the right time.

Kravick.4906:

Spite only applies two bleeds and a poison for damage. People calling out Signet of Spite as OP don’t realize just how little damage it actually does. The biggest advantage Spite has is its one of the longest applications of cripple in the game. Other than that, Spite is only good for covering bleed stacks. This game already has enough condition removal. Heaven forbid necromancers actually have a way of being allowed to keep their damage conditions on a target for a change.

It is not the damaging ones that are the issue though, the damage can be insane with the right build. It is having SO many conditions on you that can easily cover the threatening ones (them being Bleeding, Poison and Cripple)

With the right build and plenty of condition damage you are looking at nearly 5k damage from Bleeding, 4.3k damage from Poison, Cripple, Vul(5) and Weakness for 17 seconds…

It can EASILY be an “i win” button.
Please They have Scepter which has Bleeding, Poison, Cripple and a skill that deals MORE damage per a condition. They have Vul and Chill on Focus that removes boons and deals more damage

One thing Necro doesn’t need top fear – condition removal. Because they simply out condition ALL condition removal in the game. It would take a build being SPECIFICALLY created to counter conditions to stand a chance and with that they would be pretty much no threat at all.

Brando.1374:

I agree with finding a way to get rid of the “free kill” SoS that many complain about. Only bad thing about that is if all those conditions are sent back to us(necro’s), we can use them to heal us lol.

as for the condi spam, Yes. many condi players are just so used to spam spam spam dumbfire iwin situation we are in. I actually like to prey on those players in duels because of what you mentioned…they just spam and dont use their conditions at the right time.

You can use them to heal but seeing as most will use that skill form the start of a fight, i think it would actually benefit the enemy having you be forced to use your heal from the start.

You could delay it and try fighting the person a bit but you would be experiencing what it is like to get that hit on you from the start of a fight, the big difference being you can clear all the conditions where as other classes would stand no chance as the necro would be pumping them with more conditions as well.

you know that retaliation works against condition damage as well? Every condition attack is coupled with a small direct damage part. Retaliation does proc on this small damage part and deals the same damage to the condi player as it would to a direct damage player, because it uses its owners stats to calculate the damage.

The only advantage of conditions is that there are no multiple hit attacks, like 100b, that would proc several times.

So wait you would make the return of conditions,which is mostly unique to the necro, a boon???? What kind of ridiculous request is that!?!?!?!? It’s like making retaliation reflect all damage back to the use while taking none your self. Think of the OPness of that kind of skill.

Also as long auto attacks exist so will spamming, this applies for power as well condition damage.

Tim.6450:

So wait you would make the return of conditions,which is mostly unique to the necro, a boon???? What kind of ridiculous request is that!?!?!?!? It’s like making retaliation reflect all damage back to the use while taking none your self. Think of the OPness of that kind of skill.

Also as long auto attacks exist so will spamming, this applies for power as well condition damage.

It would be a boon with a reasonable say 5 second duration that couldn’t be spammed or anything. It would mean that these Condition users most of whom are clueless button bashers that have no idea how to actually play but are just living off the power of conditions would be punished for what they do – spam, spam, spam.

It takes next to NO skill to press a few buttons and get 5-8+ conditions on a target and then proceed to auto attack that person while they are trying to remove said conditions which then gives them new conditions.

Conditions SHOULD be about using them at the RIGHT time to great effect, not spamming them until the person you are fighting dies because they can’t out cleanse all the conditions that you spam them with.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

It takes next to NO skill to press a few buttons and get 5-8+ conditions on a target and then proceed to auto attack that person while they are trying to remove said conditions which then gives them new conditions.

Same for direct damage. Oh no that needs much more skill to press the same buttons

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Conditions SHOULD be about using them at the RIGHT time to great effect, not spamming them until the person you are fighting dies because they can’t out cleanse all the conditions that you spam them with.

Damaging conditions are just an other form of damage. Is there a way to negate all the direct damage? No, so why do you want that for conditions?

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

It would be a boon with a reasonable say 5 second duration that couldn’t be spammed or anything. It would mean that these Condition users most of whom are clueless button bashers that have no idea how to actually play but are just living off the power of conditions would be punished for what they do – spam, spam, spam.

It takes next to NO skill to press a few buttons and get 5-8+ conditions on a target and then proceed to auto attack that person while they are trying to remove said conditions which then gives them new conditions.

Conditions SHOULD be about using them at the RIGHT time to great effect, not spamming them until the person you are fighting dies because they can’t out cleanse all the conditions that you spam them with.

Still 5 seconds condition immunity and being punished on top of it which can scale to 10 seconds with boon duration. Not a good idea.

Also it takes even less skill to remove a condition then to apply one. So by that logic there should be a debuff that makes cleansing inpossible and on top of that doubles the conditions it was trying to cleanse.

Cleansing is not the only counter to condition damage. The others are dodging, blocking, invulnerability,… . The list is almost the same as the list for power skills.

There’s already a boon to counter conditions, it’s called vigor. Then you’ll be ready to dodge Signet of Spite… as long as they don’t fear you beforehand.

Retal affects attacks that apply conditions the same as it affects direct damage attacks.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

It is not the damaging ones that are the issue though, the damage can be insane with the right build. It is having SO many conditions on you that can easily cover the threatening ones (them being Bleeding, Poison and Cripple)

With the right build and plenty of condition damage you are looking at nearly 5k damage from Bleeding, 4.3k damage from Poison, Cripple, Vul(5) and Weakness for 17 seconds…

Yeah, thats kind of the point. This game has ridiculous amounts of condition removal. Warriors, the class that supposedly is supposed to have the most trouble with conditions as per ANets class design philosophy, just shrugs off conditions like wet paper clothing. Forgive me if I don’t feel any sympathy for when a necro plays intelligently and uses Spite, a sixty second cool down ability, to cover his bleed stacks so that he can manage to actually apply some damage for once.

When a thief runs up on someone and does a Mug, CnD, backstab, heartseeker combo for 15k to 20k damage in the span of 1-2 seconds, what you just listed hardly seems like much. But hey, a thief doing this seems perfectly fine, but a necromancer doing damage is wrong and needs to be nerfed. Not to mention you can’t cleanse direct damage like you can damage over time. Dodging works against skills that apply conditions too, so don’t list that as some all mighty counter vs direct damage, either.

This “Boon” would not increase in duration based on Boon duration and would have low access to it, say from a defensive skill in the 60-75second cool down range. So it wouldn’t be spammable or anything either.

The send the conditions back at target would be there to punish those that mindlessly bash buttons thinking “More conditions, i need more conditions” rather than using them at the right time.

Please, i have been hit for 16k Backstabs before, so i know Thief isn’t fine. However if you go zerker expect to die. It is that simple. What defense do you have against that? Toughness as well as weapon and/or utility skills

what do you have to protect yourself against condition spamming? Health like that is really a counter anyway. Plus likes of Warrior, Engineer, Necromancer and even Mesmer have MORE access to conditions than another class has access to removals. At the VERY best they won’t be abler to kill you – of course you have been forced to take EVERYTHING you can to counter conditions so you pretty much cant do anything else.

Does that seem fair?

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Plus likes of Warrior, Engineer, Necromancer and even Mesmer have MORE access to conditions than another class has access to removals. At the VERY best they won’t be abler to kill you – of course you have been forced to take EVERYTHING you can to counter conditions so you pretty much cant do anything else.

You dont have to, from what i know (forums) we have condi meta right now.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

This “Boon” would not increase in duration based on Boon duration and would have low access to it, say from a defensive skill in the 60-75second cool down range. So it wouldn’t be spammable or anything either.

Still it does not remove the fact that it has no countermove on the power skill of the same type. Deflect damage and send it back immediately. What you want is to give classes an improved/Op version of berserker without adrenaline gain with a 5 sec duration.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

The send the conditions back at target would be there to punish those that mindlessly bash buttons thinking “More conditions, i need more conditions” rather than using them at the right time.

They are already punished when you dodge/block/ evade their attack by a cooldown.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Please, i have been hit for 16k Backstabs before, so i know Thief isn’t fine. However if you go zerker expect to die. It is that simple. What defense do you have against that? Toughness as well as weapon and/or utility skills. what do you have to protect yourself against condition spamming?

-condition duration (for info look runes of melandru) as well as weapon and/or utility skills.

Health like that is really a counter anyway. Plus likes of Warrior, Engineer, Necromancer and even Mesmer have MORE access to conditions than another class has access to removals. At the VERY best they won’t be abler to kill you – of course you have been forced to take EVERYTHING you can to counter conditions so you pretty much cant do anything else.
Does that seem fair?

Yes it does .
I mean you wouldn’t say: “It is fair that you can negate all power damage of a power class in his berserker build and still kill said user/do something else?”

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

This “Boon” would not increase in duration based on Boon duration and would have low access to it, say from a defensive skill in the 60-75second cool down range. So it wouldn’t be spammable or anything either.

Used within a Zerk and Game over for any condition class. Isnt it enough that conditions are cleansed within a zerk to much?

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

The send the conditions back at target would be there to punish those that mindlessly bash buttons thinking “More conditions, i need more conditions” rather than using them at the right time.

Ever heard of Confusion and Retalation?
Getting damage for using a skill -> punish mindless button bashing. Doesn’kitten

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Please, i have been hit for 16k Backstabs before, so i know Thief isn’t fine. However if you go zerker expect to die. It is that simple. What defense do you have against that? Toughness as well as weapon and/or utility skills

what do you have to protect yourself against condition spamming?

What defense do you have against condis?
Dodge, block, blind, heals, invulnerability, … Sounds familiar? Because it is the same that counters direct damage.
The only difference is that you don’t have toughness and protection but instead you have cleanses and -duration to counter conditions.

ArmageddonAsh.6430 :

" Conditions SHOULD be about using them at the RIGHT time to great effect, not spamming them until the person you are fighting dies because they can’t out cleanse all the conditions that you spam them with."

Conditions is one of the two ways to kill someone else, with direct damage (and nobody can win a fight with auto-attack). If i say :

Direct damage SHOULD be about using them at the RIGHT time to great effect, not spamming them until the person you are fighting dies because they can’t counter all the direct damage that you spam them with.

Does it make sens for you ? i dont think so.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

So i was thinking, retaliation is kind of used to counter direct long chain attacks but what if we had a new Boon that while active would send the conditions BACK to the person that sent them to you?

You get points for perseverance in your crusade against conditions, and I can understand if WvW is a rough place for you, with Cleansing Wave as your only way of removing conditions. Still.. you do know you have alternatives to this tirade of yours?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/elementalist/D-D-Elementalist-Mesmamentalist-Build/first#post3709735

Condi ele is the weakest of all condition builds but more balanced. They have little access to conditions and have to make sacrifices to get more. They also cant spam like 5+ conditions on you in seconds. But hey I find it fun to play. Unlike most its not about spamming conditions from the start til the end. You have to use cool downs at the right time or they are wasted. Also I am pretty sure even a dodge spamming thief would still end up with conditions on them. Dodge one condition. Get hit with more while it recharges.

also not everyone has insane access to blocks or immunties and such. So that cant really be used az a defense. An ele for example. Would have to trait. Build. Gear. Exactly right just to counter condition builds and even then they wont win and will still likely die it will just take longer.

Retaliation is still VERY limited on what classes have access to it. Confusion has a HUGE tell and even then its no threat for a while unlsss used by mesmer. Warrior. Or engineer anyway.

Zergs are much easier to use conditions on midway through the fight never spam them while they are all stacked. Wait for the fight to split them up into smaller groups.

Still… you are running an aggressive build with 1(!) condition removal skill (and not a very good one), and complains about conditions being strong. It doesn’t exactly help your case.

You have got plenty of defensive options at your disposal, and we all need to compromise.

Every build in this game is spammy. I dont care if you are a maxed out dhuumfire necro or zerker thief, at a certain point every class spams some damage because that is the viable way to win. This game is not meant to be very difficult.

jpersson.7368:

Still… you are running an aggressive build with 1(!) condition removal skill (and not a very good one), and complains about conditions being strong. It doesn’t exactly help your case.

You have got plenty of defensive options at your disposal, and we all need to compromise.

Erm….
You do know that i can change traits and utilities on the fly right? My traits and skill change throughout my time in WvW. Don’t be silly and assume that everyone runs the EXACT same build and never makes changes to them during the night.

So. In short. You are wrong.

I didn’t know we had regressed to the you-are-wrong schoolyard. I can play that game as well, but don’t worry. I’ve heard what you had to say, and you heard what I had to say. I never though any of us would convince the other.

Cheers, and good luck beefing up the defense.