Guild Wars 2

Yay, or ney?

This is whether or not healing signet (as it is now) is a well made balanced skill and doesn’t need a functionality or number change. This relates to both the passive and active as a whole.

passive is still so strong active should never be used. It leaves the warrior completely open to Rangers and thieves due to their poison uptime. Only a badly played ranger/thief or a well played warrior will change the outcome between these classes.

Having your one and only healing skill completely shut down by two professions is bad enough, having to rely on NOT using the active bit and limp around with 33% less passive healing is like being capped in the knees while running a marathon and told to keep running.

I am all for something such as healing on actions, perhaps even similar to ele’s healing signet. The fact that it heals, with poison applied, as strong as many professions heals with a 25s, that do not have poison applied, in a passive manner, is problematic.

Healing Signet does need to be looked at again. It’s not unbalanced anymore, but it just isn’t really fun. As a Warrior, you put it on your bar and just kinda forget about it. As someone fighting a Warrior, you never have a Heal to think about (interrupting, timing poison, etc.). It’s not unbalancing, but it isn’t fun either.

Speak for yourself pls,

I like it because it gives me more time to focus on my target.

Warriors dont have many ways to create some time for healing moments, thats why i love HS.

If you dont like its passive then use healing surge.
Becausr that healing skill does better vs poison classes.

This seems just another nerf topic to me, just stop it.

the passive is just about right with the adrenaline changes the Adrenile health isn’t up 100% of the time now so it is easier for other classes to get a upper hand if the warroirs fails his Attack attempt.

the only thing i can say to improve Healing signets Active , is to increase its heal by 8-10% scaling and add – toughness stat during the cast time , if the warroir uses it in a smart way like hide behind a wall / ledge or use Endure pain+healing sig he will boost his hp in a spike rather than relying on hs regen.

this gives a warroir two options to use , get more time to focus on targets and gives them a choice to postion and heal .

doing this gives them a reason to use its Active for a quick burst heal to finish a fight rather than waiting for hp to regen , that in turn gives the target time to recharge cooldowns and recover.

the simple addition adds more flexibility to the heal over all but obviously the active heal is lacking a little and people still prefer to use its passive.

so i hope a little additional boost to its active will encourage warroirs to use it more often while hoding a good amount of adreniline for Adreninal health to take healing signets place for hp regen in Tandem for an healing source.

the little change doens’t nurf or buff it since its got the added risk of – toughness during cast , and adds more active play to the heal .

one example is warroirs on low hp , Eles on low hp , warroirs goes to block or hide to regen hp (while hiding is not gaining extra Adrenline or momentum is stopped to heal)

ele Opens up a Aoe attack on the location of the kiting warroir trying to regain hp.
the warroir can then Decide to use its Active for a burst heal (its on a cast timer is it worth the risk to take a hit or two to get a heal that will last long enough to finish the target ele off)

gw1 may be outdated combat system in terms of its skills, but the logic behind Active combat/skill use can still be applied to gw2.

nicknamenick.2437:

Speak for yourself pls,

I like it because it gives me more time to focus on my target.

Warriors dont have many ways to create some time for healing moments, thats why i love HS.

If you dont like its passive then use healing surge.
Becausr that healing skill does better vs poison classes.

This seems just another nerf topic to me, just stop it.

I have no intention of requesting a nerf to HS, I’m simply asking if people think Healing signet is a skill that needs no attention.To be perfectly honest, I’d be in favor of buffing Healing signet (both active and passive) if it meant the effect wasn’t as ridiculous as it is now. No matter the numbers they tweak, it should get a functionality change imo.

I’d say any signet which harms you for using the active because the passive is stronger than the alternative healing options is a poorly designed skill but that’s just my opinion. I’m more interested in other people’s thoughts.

They should have given the class access to protection and regen as opposed to giving them that signet imo. I certainly understand the need for it, but it’s just lazy design to offset the longevity issue the class has.

Another problem is they’ve given the class so many counters to so many mechanics that there’s simply nothing the other heals could offer to ever be more valuable than the signet. Imagine if the class was actually weak to condis and the only way to counter them was with a healing skill? That would certainly push the issue away from the signet and put real balance into the class without needing to change it.

That all said, and given the laziness of ANet and the unlikelihood of them ever balancing the class properly, the best thing they could do at this point is at least find some reason for the class to activate it.

Atherakhia.4086:

They should have given the class access to protection and regen as opposed to giving them that signet imo. I certainly understand the need for it, but it’s just lazy design to offset the longevity issue the class has.

Another problem is they’ve given the class so many counters to so many mechanics that there’s simply nothing the other heals could offer to ever be more valuable than the signet. Imagine if the class was actually weak to condis and the only way to counter them was with a healing skill? That would certainly push the issue away from the signet and put real balance into the class without needing to change it.

That all said, and given the laziness of ANet and the unlikelihood of them ever balancing the class properly, the best thing they could do at this point is at least find some reason for the class to activate it.

Ehm… warrior was and still is weak to conditions. Outside of cleansing ire and now maybe brawlers recovery warriors have pretty pathetic condition clear. Ironically those things are made mandatory because conditions are so easily spammable, which is why they were given to warrior in the first place.

Besides that, healing sig was and still is countered easily by high spike damage. Couple that with poison and there you go.

I’m getting flashes of deja vu here. People wanting warriors to be what they were for the first year or so of the games life. Easy kills in pvp and free bags in wvw.

fellyn.5083:

Atherakhia.4086:

They should have given the class access to protection and regen as opposed to giving them that signet imo. I certainly understand the need for it, but it’s just lazy design to offset the longevity issue the class has.

Another problem is they’ve given the class so many counters to so many mechanics that there’s simply nothing the other heals could offer to ever be more valuable than the signet. Imagine if the class was actually weak to condis and the only way to counter them was with a healing skill? That would certainly push the issue away from the signet and put real balance into the class without needing to change it.

That all said, and given the laziness of ANet and the unlikelihood of them ever balancing the class properly, the best thing they could do at this point is at least find some reason for the class to activate it.

Ehm… warrior was and still is weak to conditions. Outside of cleansing ire and now maybe brawlers recovery warriors have pretty pathetic condition clear. Ironically those things are made mandatory because conditions are so easily spammable, which is why they were given to warrior in the first place.

Besides that, healing sig was and still is countered easily by high spike damage. Couple that with poison and there you go.

I’m getting flashes of deja vu here. People wanting warriors to be what they were for the first year or so of the games life. Easy kills in pvp and free bags in wvw.

Nah. Cleansing Ire, Berserker Stance, and a signet are great counters to condi. More than some get certainly. Add to this the passive healing of healing signet and Warrior is easily one of the strongest. But yes, you need to burst them down and apply constant poison to get ahead of it. But Warrior has tons of counters to avoid the high burst as well.

The problem is the signet is too powerful to begin with. The activated portion and the other heals for the class will need to be horrendously overpowered to ever stand a chance against the signet.

Like I said originally… the only way to get around that would have been to engineer some severe handicap the class would have and would require another heal to fill in that gap. Condi being the easiest one to do.

But ANet will never do that so /shrug.

NinjaEd.3946:

nicknamenick.2437:

Speak for yourself pls,

I like it because it gives me more time to focus on my target.

Warriors dont have many ways to create some time for healing moments, thats why i love HS.

If you dont like its passive then use healing surge.
Becausr that healing skill does better vs poison classes.

This seems just another nerf topic to me, just stop it.

I have no intention of requesting a nerf to HS, I’m simply asking if people think Healing signet is a skill that needs no attention.To be perfectly honest, I’d be in favor of buffing Healing signet (both active and passive) if it meant the effect wasn’t as ridiculous as it is now. No matter the numbers they tweak, it should get a functionality change imo.

I’d say any signet which harms you for using the active because the passive is stronger than the alternative healing options is a poorly designed skill but that’s just my opinion. I’m more interested in other people’s thoughts.

The problem is they gave what the signet SHOULD have been to a trait…Adrenal Health. That would have been the perfect passive for the Signet, but they gave it to the trait, so short of replacing the two there’s near nothing I can think of to change the passive into a reasonable thing.

Healing Signet has the strength of constantly healing you with the weakness of a worthless active. Before, the amount of healing is what made people complain about it. In it’s current form I think it’s hard to say that the heal itself is OP. Is it boring mechanically? I think yes. Does it have a unique function compared to other Warrior heals? Yes. Healing Surge is for healing after a big spike. Mending is for countering condi heavy builds but is weak vs pure power. Defiant Stance is situational but can be useful for zerg surfing and bosses with high single damage hits (would have interesting synergy with Frenzy if not for that long CD).

The problem now is less about Healing Signet and more that the other heals are just not worth taking. Healing Surge is now a even bigger joke then it was before. With the adrenaline changes I can never see myself using it. It is not skill based, it’s luck based. If you don’t have adren when you need it, you don’t heal for much and have a long CD.

Mending seems like it would be great for pairing up with Restorative Strength, if it didn’t heal for such a pitiful amount. Warriors lack mechanics such as protection, aegis, and stealth that allows other classes to mitigate damage. So while the amount would seem reasonable on other classes, for Warriors it just isn’t practical. Either needs a higher heal or a slight reduction in CD (which is what I would prefer). It would allow double melee/non-LB builds to be more resistant to movement impairing conditions in PvP. Despite what the forum believes, Warriors do suck against conditions, the one exception being having a LB. You can take CI, Zerk Stance, and Brawler’s Recovery with Hoelbrak runes and still get overwhelmed by condis if you don’t have a LB.

Make Defiant Stance an actual Stance that is affected by every Stance trait, not just 1 or 2.

If you’re complaining about Heal Sig still…it just boggles my mind. I can match if not exceed that healing easily on other classes and not be so vulnerable to poison.

When the strength of constantly healing you is more then the other professions active heals, I hardly call the active effect of the signet, a weakness. Sometimes I really question if some of the die hard warriors are even awareof the other skills on other professions at times.

dancingmonkey.4902:

I am all for something such as healing on actions, perhaps even similar to ele’s healing signet. The fact that it heals, with poison applied, as strong as many professions heals with a 25s, that do not have poison applied, in a passive manner, is problematic.

People really still think Healing Signet healing is too strong ..... Warriors are barely even top tier anymore in tPvP if they even are. At the moment most teams would rather take a second Elementalist or an Engineer over a Warrior. I fight warriors all the time, it hardly seems like Healing Signet is overpowered at all.

With poison, that would make the heal 237 HP/S, weaker than probably around 95% of healing skills.

Few people will disagree that functionally this skill needs a change. But to say that Healing Signet needs any further nerfs is ridiculous. The adrenaline nerfs have already indirectly nerfed their sustain.

Warriors do not have the protection and healing an Elementalist, Guardian and Engi, they don’t have the stealth and evasiveness of a thief or a mesmer either to avoid damage. Or the death shroud of a Necro. They rely heavily on their base stats and short-lived stances as well as normal utility healing to sustain. A nerf to any of these three things would potentially break the class, which is the problem. They are too reliant on passive mechanics that at higher levels they do not have the capability of advanced active mechanics that most players at that level have

They would need to receive sustain buffs elsewhere if Healing Signet were to be nerfed. The other two healing skills that a Warrior has generally are a poor fit given the context of the class, mainly because that if a Warrior were to take those skills, they would not nearly have enough healing whatsoever. People will often cite oh warriors have the highest base HP and highest toughness. What use is a high HP pool if you can never recover it back for the duration of the fight? Many classes have great access to protection which makes up for their lower toughness.

Please give me Consume Conditions or Healing Turret rather than healing signet. Both have very good healing values, are not affected by poison (if I am not mistaken) and have the secondary effect of clearing conditions.

I agree with Prysin’s assessment. The downfall of Healing Signet is that once somebody puts poison on you, the healing power of healing signet is greatly diminished and there is nothing you can do about it. Yes you can clear conditions but even if poison is on for a second your heal is diminished. There is no counter to that just like there isn’t any way to counter the warrior from healing passively (i.e heal interrupts). And another downfall is that it takes longer to recover from high bursts of damage.

It also isn’t useful to compare Healing Signet to other healing skills of other classes, like Elementalist who have amazing healing capabilities.

Can we all at least agree Healing Signet is boring? Effective is not a question (it certainly is) and I would disagree with anyone that says it’s overpowered, but I really can’t see how anyone thinks the skill is actually interesting.

Also, on a pure healing standpoint, Healing Signet does seem a little strong. Compare to the most similar healing skills other professions have:

Healing Signet: 362 (.05 Healing Power)/second
Signet of the Ether (3 illusions): 980 (.125 Healing Power)/3 seconds, 326.66 (.04166 Healing Power)/second
Signet of Vampirism: 325 (.1 Healing Power)/second, only when struck
Blood Fiend: 926/3 seconds, 308.66/second, only when Blood Fiend hits

Signet of Malice and Signet of Restoration are much more difficult to calculate, as they both vary much more greatly with play and build choices.

Healing Signet heals for more than the most similar skills when those other skills are functioning at maximum efficiency, which either requires effort (Signet of the Ether), luck (Blood Fiend), or taking damage (Signet of Vampirism). Can’t really say that Warriors get the advantage due to damage avoidance when half of the similar skills are on Necromancer, the only class with even worse avoidance than the Warrior. Yes, different classes are different, and I don’t feel Healing Signet is unbalanced, but there are actually grounds for complaint on the matter.

EDIT: @killahmayne: You put up Healing Signet under poison giving 237 HP/sec, but Consume Conditions with poison (which increases the heal) hits only 227.2 HP/sec. Even when neutered by poison, Healing Signet still puts out more Healing/second than some of the most potent Healing skills in the game.

killahmayne.9518:

With poison, that would make the heal 237 HP/S, weaker than probably around 95% of healing skills.

Why don’t you break it down for us then and compare that 4,740 heal every 20s to every other heal in the game with poison? I challenge you to do the math and post it hear. That amount of heal with poison is 80% or better then most of the other professions heals without poison.

dancingmonkey.4902:

killahmayne.9518:

With poison, that would make the heal 237 HP/S, weaker than probably around 95% of healing skills.

Why don’t you break it down for us then and compare that 4,740 heal every 20s to every other heal in the game with poison? I challenge you to do the math and post it hear. That amount of heal with poison is 80% or better then most of the other professions heals without poison.

I am all for something such as healing on actions, perhaps even similar to ele’s healing signet. The fact that it heals, with poison applied, as strong as many professions heals with a 25s, that do not have poison applied, in a passive manner, is problematic.

Unless I don’t understand plain english, did you not claim that Healing Signet with Poison applied is as strong as many other profession heals with a 25s CD that do not have poison applied.

The burden of proof is on you. You claimed something, you give me the math. I never claimed that Healing Signet with poison healed the same as any other healing skill with poison.

It is like you ignored my whole entire post. If you had actually read it, you would at least understand and consider the reasoning about Healing Signet not needing a nerf.

Also indirectly alluded to in my post is the fact that poison will immediately start reducing the effectiveness of healing signet before a cleanse where as with the active use of the heal you can clear the poison first before using the heal. You have the option that Healing Signet clearly doesn’t.

So in a 25 second period with 15 second poison uptime, Healing Signet is reduced drastically. Where as somebody who uses their condition clear smartly will have not seen that reduction in healing.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Can we all at least agree Healing Signet is boring? Effective is not a question (it certainly is) and I would disagree with anyone that says it’s overpowered, but I really can’t see how anyone thinks the skill is actually interesting.

Also, on a pure healing standpoint, Healing Signet does seem a little strong. Compare to the most similar healing skills other professions have:

Healing Signet: 362 (.05 Healing Power)/second
Signet of the Ether (3 illusions): 980 (.125 Healing Power)/3 seconds, 326.66 (.04166 Healing Power)/second
Signet of Vampirism: 325 (.1 Healing Power)/second, only when struck
Blood Fiend: 926/3 seconds, 308.66/second, only when Blood Fiend hits

Signet of Malice and Signet of Restoration are much more difficult to calculate, as they both vary much more greatly with play and build choices.

Healing Signet heals for more than the most similar skills when those other skills are functioning at maximum efficiency, which either requires effort (Signet of the Ether), luck (Blood Fiend), or taking damage (Signet of Vampirism). Can’t really say that Warriors get the advantage due to damage avoidance when half of the similar skills are on Necromancer, the only class with even worse avoidance than the Warrior. Yes, different classes are different, and I don’t feel Healing Signet is unbalanced, but there are actually grounds for complaint on the matter.

EDIT: @killahmayne: You put up Healing Signet under poison giving 237 HP/sec, but Consume Conditions with poison (which increases the heal) hits only 227.2 HP/sec. Even when neutered by poison, Healing Signet still puts out more Healing/second than some of the most potent Healing skills in the game.

I was refuting the claim that Healing Signet with poison on it heals more than many skills without poison.

And comparing Consume conditions with poison on it is a moot argument. It is not affected by poison whatsoever.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

EDIT: @killahmayne: You put up Healing Signet under poison giving 237 HP/sec, but Consume Conditions with poison (which increases the heal) hits only 227.2 HP/sec. Even when neutered by poison, Healing Signet still puts out more Healing/second than some of the most potent Healing skills in the game.

Posted this above, but repeating. Here we have a 25 second cooldown Heal that actually gets stronger with poison, and still doesn’t reach the HP/second that Healing Signet with 100% poison uptime has.

Consume Conditions is one of the strongest heals in the game, and the fact is that the same circumstance (constant Poison) is a boon for Consume Conditions and harsh on Healing Signet, but Healing Signet still outperforms it in HP/second in that exact same situation.

Saying “Consume Conditions is a moot point” is foolish, in this case.

That is however, assuming that poison is the only condition you have on you. You are using values under the worst of cases, which aren’t as common relative to other values. If you even have 2 conditions on you (a more than reasonable occurring situation, when are you likely not to have at least 2 conditions on you) the healing is stronger. It is a moot argument in the case that Consume Conditions will heal for more than Healing Signet under poison in a significant amount of situations rather than not and that the two are completely different healing skills (I did not compare Consume Conditions with Healing Signet, I only merely stated that I would rather have Consume Conditions over Healing Signet).

Which again I need to reiterate, goes back to my point that Healing Signet isn’t stronger with poison than most healing skills not affected by poison.

And my main point is that many healing skills have secondary effects, and that there are inherent weaknesses in Healing Signet that active healing skills simply do not have. And that Healing Signet’s values are justified by the inherent weaknesses I have just mentioned, it has no secondary effect, poison is uncounterable (it will inevitably diminish healing values no matter what).

I was hopeing for quick responses, guess I replicated the other post on this exact page O.o

In response to poison, how is it any different from applying poison other profession’s heals which do not cleanse conditions? Also Healing signet is 100% uptime, so the second you take 1 damage it will tick, other healing skills you have to plan for the best possible time to use it.

Lastly, while ~380 health may not seem like a lot, that’s 380 health on a heavy armor profession which more often than not has numerous defenses in their build. Simple example, I would never take healing signet if it was given to my thief even if it was healing me for a large % of my health. Thief naturally gets hit hard given their viable builds don’t invest into a load of toughness. You see the exact opposite result on warrior however because ~380 health is something you can fight with.

An update to the other 3 healing skills would be a great move, but feels like it’d be a power creep without addressing the real problem. Should hit both places at once and address the entire selection of warrior healing skills so no 1 option is superior in an overall build.

Prysin.8542:

passive is still so strong active should never be used. It leaves the warrior completely open to Rangers and thieves due to their poison uptime. Only a badly played ranger/thief or a well played warrior will change the outcome between these classes.

Having your one and only healing skill completely shut down by two professions is bad enough, having to rely on NOT using the active bit and limp around with 33% less passive healing is like being capped in the knees while running a marathon and told to keep running.

welcome to how the rest of the professions feel.

NinjaEd.3946:

I was hopeing for quick responses, guess I replicated the other post on this exact page O.o

In response to poison, how is it any different from applying poison other profession’s heals which do not cleanse conditions? Also Healing signet is 100% uptime, so the second you take 1 damage it will tick, other healing skills you have to plan for the best possible time to use it.

Lastly, while ~380 health may not seem like a lot, that’s 380 health on a heavy armor profession which more often than not has numerous defenses in their build. Simple example, I would never take healing signet if it was given to my thief even if it was healing me for a large % of my health. Thief naturally gets hit hard given their viable builds don’t invest into a load of toughness. You see the exact opposite result on warrior however because ~380 health is something you can fight with.

An update to the other 3 healing skills would be a great move, but feels like it’d be a power creep without addressing the real problem. Should hit both places at once and address the entire selection of warrior healing skills so no 1 option is superior in an overall build.

I think you missed the point. With active healing skills, you actually have the option if you wanted to, to completely negate the poison and heal for your full amount. Healing Signet does NOT have that option, you take the poison NO matter what, no counterplay. And some healing skills better yet bypass the healing reduction of poison.

And what is the overall net difference in having Healing Signet tick, and using your active heal to heal yourself to full?

Not all warriors invest alot into toughness, many run with 2,500 armor which isn’t a lot given the mechanics of this class. 2,500 can get spiked very hard, and healing signet would not help them very much. People need to get out of the archetype of light, medium and heavy because of factors of healing, stealth, protection, etc that add many intangibles into the equation. They do not impact tankiness as much as people think. For example, the main reason why a Warrior is considered tanky isn’t because they have 150 more armor than a thief at base value.

Healing signet is 100% uptime, so whenever you take poison, it will affect your overall healing. a poisoned healing signet is only 90 HPS close to the old useless trash.
Any active healing you can cleanse poison before using it.

380 health on a heavy armor, is nothing, really, thats why the strongest builds are all PTV, celestial with 20 point in to defense, all bunker full on stances and not zerker bullcharge frenzy stuff.

not to mention if you simply make warrior use any of those active heals, warrior will be more forced to hambow, because you can’t interrupt a withdraw, a healing turret deploy really fast and blasting is CC immnue. necro can fear for heal, mesmer heal in stealth, or in chaos field, guardian heal auto blocks, pretty much only warrior’s active heal are a huge swing to the air and be like im healing you better CC me naooo. so basically only hammer is the most optimal for active heal, but again it’s the best build for warrior now already.

And for any second you don’t have poison on you, Healing Signet ticks at full power. Other healing skills, the poison only has to be on you while you’re activating it. Poison, unless it’s applied 100% of the time, hurts Healing Signet the least out of any healing skill bar Consume Conditions and Antitoxin Spray (since those both get stronger with Poison).

Only poisoned for 4 seconds every 10? Healing Signet suffers only a 13.2% effectiveness reduction. Doesn’t matter which 4 seconds those are. Every other healing skill gets hit much harder.

Simon.3794:

Healing signet is 100% uptime, so whenever you take poison, it will affect your overall healing. a poisoned healing signet is only 90 HPS close to the old useless trash.
Any active healing you can cleanse poison before using it.

380 health on a heavy armor, is nothing, really, thats why the strongest builds are all PTV, celestial with 20 point in to defense, all bunker full on stances and not zerker bullcharge frenzy stuff.

not to mention if you simply make warrior use any of those active heals, warrior will be more forced to hambow, because you can’t interrupt a withdraw, a healing turret deploy really fast and blasting is CC immnue. necro can fear for heal, mesmer heal in stealth, or in chaos field, guardian heal auto blocks, pretty much only warrior’s active heal are a huge swing to the air and be like im healing you better CC me naooo. so basically only hammer is the most optimal for active heal, but again it’s the best build for warrior now already.

I think those are some valid points you bring up that I didn’t really consider. People still use PVT in structured despite Healing Signet being “OP” as people are saying. Berserker Warriors are less viable in tPvP than zerker mesmers, zerker thieves and heck even zerker guardians and zerker rangers.

However though, warrior does have stability, just like mesmers and thieves have stealth, etc to prevent the interrupt of heals.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

And for any second you don’t have poison on you, Healing Signet ticks at full power. Other healing skills, the poison only has to be on you while you’re activating it. Poison, unless it’s applied 100% of the time, hurts Healing Signet the least out of any healing skill bar Consume Conditions and Antitoxin Spray (since those both get stronger with Poison).

Only poisoned for 4 seconds every 10? Healing Signet suffers only a 13.2% effectiveness reduction. Doesn’t matter which 4 seconds those are. Every other healing skill gets hit much harder.

Why you making it sound like everytime i don’t have poison on me, healing signet will heal for the double?

1. Have to cleans the poison on you over and over again, every time it’s applied , and have no access to burst healing.

2. Only need to cleans the poison whenever you need to use the healing skill, have burst healing.

which is easier to do? in your honest opinion.

killahmayne.9518:

Simon.3794:

Healing signet is 100% uptime, so whenever you take poison, it will affect your overall healing. a poisoned healing signet is only 90 HPS close to the old useless trash.
Any active healing you can cleanse poison before using it.

380 health on a heavy armor, is nothing, really, thats why the strongest builds are all PTV, celestial with 20 point in to defense, all bunker full on stances and not zerker bullcharge frenzy stuff.

not to mention if you simply make warrior use any of those active heals, warrior will be more forced to hambow, because you can’t interrupt a withdraw, a healing turret deploy really fast and blasting is CC immnue. necro can fear for heal, mesmer heal in stealth, or in chaos field, guardian heal auto blocks, pretty much only warrior’s active heal are a huge swing to the air and be like im healing you better CC me naooo. so basically only hammer is the most optimal for active heal, but again it’s the best build for warrior now already.

I think those are some valid points you bring up that I didn’t really consider. People still use PVT in structured despite Healing Signet being “OP” as people are saying. Berserker Warriors are less viable in tPvP than zerker mesmers, zerker thieves and heck even zerker guardians and zerker rangers.

However though, warrior does have stability, just like mesmers and thieves have stealth, etc to prevent the interrupt of heals.

Problem is, warrior only has 1 stability (which can also be easily stripped), either for SB, bursting, or for healing with a 40 second cool down.

mesmer has chaos field from staff, stealth, mass invis, distortion, F3 CC for safe healing. a lot of option to safely use a healing skill.

so is withdraw, it’s an evade on itself, if you are talking about HiS, then 5+2 combo is always available to regain stealth, not to mention shadow step which can also be used for safe healing.

The answer is poison affects Healing Signet the most, or the least depending on the situation. Not one or the other in isolation.

If you have an active heal, you could be poisoned for 29 out of 30 seconds. But if you cleanse and use the heal on the 30th second you will not be affected at all.

If you are using healing signet, your healing will be reduced by nearly 33% that duration.

Poison would affect Healing Signet less than an active heal only if the person uses the the heal during poison. In that case I would agree that poison affects the active heal more. HOWEVER, the active heal has a way to counter that, by way of condition removal.

Where as with Healing Signet, you have to keep constantly removing poison, and even poison no matter what will reduce the effectiveness of the heal, which is the point. There is zero way to prevent poison from reducing the effectiveness of our slotted healing signet healing skill.

Healing Signet will rarely heal at it’s maximum effectiveness (which means 100% heal for an entire set period of time) unless nobody has poison. Taking that into account, 360 HP/S is overstated in the sense that it is under ideal situations.

Well, non-poisoned heal is 50% higher than poisoned heal, but I never claimed it got stronger. Just not limited. Any time you are not poisond, the overall healing reduction is lessened.

Easier is just letting the poison go and still getting better HP/second than most healing skills. Most decent players will time their poison for the heal if they don’t have the ability to interrupt it.

Sure, cleansing the poison before healing is good play, but you can’t usually cleanse mid-cast (outside of Ether Renewal)

To get the same healing reduction as a well-timed Poison on other healing skills, Healing signet needs to be always poisoned. Healing Signet cannot be interrupted, and even when poisoned, it still has higher HP/second than most non-poisoned healing skills.

Despite this, I do not feel the skill is too strong. It is, however, very boring.

Simon.3794:

necro can fear for heal

Oh you just opened up a can of worms on that one. Necros have fear, so they can fear someone then use their heal. That’s fair enough, but then you act like warriors can’t do the same thing, fear me, the hammer as a whole, physical skills all will give you time to hit your heal. However warriors also have this wonderful thing called stability that will give them the same thing. Consume Conditions is the easiest heal to interrupt in the game by far because of the necro mechanics as a class. No other class can have their heal locked down nearly as easily especially not warriors with stability, immobilize, and stuns/knockdowns. The other classes heals are easier to hit than a warriors yes, but saying a necro can get their heal off easier than any another classes is blatantly and objectively not true.

Back to OP, Yes healing signet needs a change. It should heal for far less passively and then heal for way more actively. They never should have changed the passive value. 200hp a second is decent sustain, but they should have buffed the active to be at a value that is close to a normal heal skill or with some secondary effect (block or condition removal). Anyone who wants the skill to stay as it is where you should never activate it is either terrible at the game, and needs to improve instead of relying on easy mechanics, or is an idiot for not wanting skills to have balanced usage mechanics.

zapv.8051:

Simon.3794:

necro can fear for heal

Oh you just opened up a can of worms on that one. Necros have fear, so they can fear someone then use their heal. That’s fair enough, but then you act like warriors can’t do the same thing, fear me, the hammer as a whole, physical skills all will give you time to hit your heal. However warriors also have this wonderful thing called stability that will give them the same thing. Consume Conditions is the easiest heal to interrupt in the game by far because of the necro mechanics as a class. No other class can have their heal locked down nearly as easily especially not warriors with stability, immobilize, and stuns/knockdowns. The other classes heals are easier to hit than a warriors yes, but saying a necro can get their heal off easier than any another classes is blatantly and objectively not true.

Back to OP, Yes healing signet needs a change. It should heal for far less passively and then heal for way more actively. They never should have changed the passive value. 200hp a second is decent sustain, but they should have buffed the active to be at a value that is close to a normal heal skill or with some secondary effect (block or condition removal). Anyone who wants the skill to stay as it is where you should never activate it is either terrible at the game, and needs to improve instead of relying on easy mechanics, or is an idiot for not wanting skills to have balanced usage mechanics.

Wait, what, so you bring a hammer, and fear me and bullcharge and stomp? thats your build? tell me a trick to remove stability and survive while having 2 physical utilities please.

really, please make this be a lesson to not just liste random utilities like you can actually use them or pretend a build can have 7 utilities.

There i said it, you see no one bring physical utilities because they are useless, easily avoidable trash, compare to any of those stances. not to mention why would you bring those when you already have hammer.
and warrior does not have the ability to remove stability in order to execute his CCs. and fear me is on an such high CD.
not to mention fear me only has a range of 600, anyone farther then 400 will only get feared for 1 sec, while doom is 1200 so is staff 5

not to mention necro has spec walk . and wurm teleportation.

and i never said necro can pull their heal easier then everyone else, necro is probably one of the closest class to warrior in terms of pull off an active heal.

and you clearly did not read what i posted 3 posts above you. because i already addressed on the question of stability.

Which again brings me full circle to my point. Healing Signet is not overpowered based on their inherent weaknesses and the fact that it has no secondary effect, and given the context and design of the class.

Classes have plenty of options for "safe" heals as Simon mentioned. Thieves can shadow step to 1,200 range (out of the range of most poisons) and then heal. Mesmers can do the same. Some healing skills cannot be poisoned mid cast like shelter unless the skill is unblockable. To me, the odds of getting a "safe" heal is much more often than not given that classes have plenty of mechanics to do so, and the odds of somebody poisoning you mid-cast given these safe options.

Simon.3794:

zapv.8051:

Simon.3794:

necro can fear for heal

Oh you just opened up a can of worms on that one. Necros have fear, so they can fear someone then use their heal. That’s fair enough, but then you act like warriors can’t do the same thing, fear me, the hammer as a whole, physical skills all will give you time to hit your heal. However warriors also have this wonderful thing called stability that will give them the same thing. Consume Conditions is the easiest heal to interrupt in the game by far because of the necro mechanics as a class. No other class can have their heal locked down nearly as easily especially not warriors with stability, immobilize, and stuns/knockdowns. The other classes heals are easier to hit than a warriors yes, but saying a necro can get their heal off easier than any another classes is blatantly and objectively not true.

Back to OP, Yes healing signet needs a change. It should heal for far less passively and then heal for way more actively. They never should have changed the passive value. 200hp a second is decent sustain, but they should have buffed the active to be at a value that is close to a normal heal skill or with some secondary effect (block or condition removal). Anyone who wants the skill to stay as it is where you should never activate it is either terrible at the game, and needs to improve instead of relying on easy mechanics, or is an idiot for not wanting skills to have balanced usage mechanics.

Wait, what, so you bring a hammer, and fear me and bullcharge and stomp? thats your build? tell me a trick to remove stability and survive while having 2 physical utilities please.

really, please make this be a lesson to not just liste random utilities like you can actually use them or pretend a build can have 7 utilities.

There i said it, you see no one bring physical utilities because they are useless, easily avoidable trash, compare to any of those stances. not to mention why would you bring those when you already have hammer.
and warrior does not have the ability to remove stability in order to execute his CCs. and fear me is on an such high CD.
not to mention fear me only has a range of 600, anyone farther then 400 will only get feared for 1 sec, while doom is 1200 so is staff 5

not to mention necro has spec walk . and wurm teleportation.

and i never said necro can pull their heal easier then everyone else, necro is probably one of the closest class to warrior in terms of pull off an active heal.

and you clearly did not read what i posted 3 posts above you. because i already addressed on the question of stability.

That isn’t what I’m saying at all. I’m saying you have access to the same things you claim allow necros to get off their heals. Hambow has access to more stuns and knockdowns then a terrormancer as well as a stability. I wouldn’t take those utilities but if your argument is that necros can get their heal off with fears gtfo. Every class has stuns and interrupts to get their heals off and a warrior has more options to do that than necros (hambow alone has higher uptime on cc than a full terror build). My point is that you show objective bias when stating necros can cc someone to cast their heals without even acknowledging that warriors can do the same hitting. I’m not saying you should use physical skills, they are bad but if you want to talk about interrupting a heal. Consume Conditions is easy.

Also, I want to know which classes you play against that have low cooldown interrupts and stability? Not necros, not thieves, not mesmers, not eles, not guardians, not engineers, not rangers. The only class with both those tools is a warrior. That’s the only class your gonna have to worry about getting your heal interrupted regularly and worry about not being able to cc them due to stability. No other class has that toolset.

Then you go on to compare fear me to doom and reaper’s mark. You should be comparing earthshaker, staggering blow, and backbreaker to those skills. Then you brink up spectral walk, and wurm. What’s your point on those? Are you saying that stunbreaks allow you to get your heal off? Are you saying the spacing they create will allow you to get your heal off because warriors have mobility skills, and stun breaks to get their heals off. If you choose not to take them that is a build choice.

Also as far as warriors stability, they’ve got 2 sources of stability and if your having trouble executing your heal then maybe you should run both of those. Overall, warriors do have some issues getting their heal off, but arguing that they are the worst overall simply isn’t true. They have 20% uptime on stability with one utility, as well as access to immobilize if they want to create space. They also have tons of cc to get their heals off if they so desire

killahmayne.9518:

Which again brings me full circle to my point. Healing Signet is not overpowered based on their inherent weaknesses and the fact that it has no secondary effect, and given the context and design of the class.

Classes have plenty of options for “safe” heals as Simon mentioned. Thieves can shadow step to 1,200 range (out of the range of most poisons) and then heal. Mesmers can do the same. Some healing skills cannot be poisoned mid cast like shelter unless the skill is unblockable. To me, the odds of getting a “safe” heal is much more often than not given that classes have plenty of mechanics to do so, and the odds of somebody poisoning you mid-cast given these safe options.

The problem with Healing Signet for me is that it lacks any skillful play. Your best option is to never activate it. If it had a strong active and a weaker passive it would be a much better skill for good players while being worse for people who never want to press their heal button.

Isn’t there already a “nerf healing signet” thread? Honestly, warrior has a now eternal stigma connected to them due to their admittedly overpowered stance early on in the game. Yes, they did horrendously outmatch every other class at some point early on. Is that still the case? No, far from it. If a warrior isn’t running the hambow meta in which they’re pigeonholed into, they barely stand a chance against other classes, even when fighting mediocre players. Sure, IF they have berserker stance on, which they most likely do, that’s eight full seconds of not being able to apply any condition to them whatsoever, but if you manage to simply evade them for that measly amount of time, odds are, even a player with a moderate level of skill, can burn them down immediately afterwards. Warriors don’t get to shroud themselves or blink away, they’re a class that requires you to eat damage and time your dodges. Healing signet was exactly where it should have been before its nerf, and that stands even truer now. Warriors can only hope these types of threads are not taken into consideration, but their “balance” history would say otherwise. It’s quickly becoming a case of just wanting to make warriors free kills, while other classes desperately defend their newfound buffs.

The skill is fine as it is. It has counterplay – people just don’t counter it and expect the warrior to roll over and die.

The passive is fine. And honestly while some people consider it boring I personally don’t.
A better active would be nice considering the passive was nerfed already without any compensation to the active ( as was promised) but even so – I don’t see why the skill should be changed.

Looking at the broader context – the class is already deep enough in trouble as it is with the adrenaline changes.

Also I don’t see changing a skill that mostly affects PVE players ( the majority of players) a good idea just to cater to a fraction of the sPVP community that thinks the skill is a problem.

Elmago.2961:

Isn’t there already a “nerf healing signet” thread? Honestly, warrior has a now eternal stigma connected to them due to their admittedly overpowered stance early on in the game. Yes, they did horrendously outmatch every other class at some point early on. Is that still the case? No, far from it. If a warrior isn’t running the hambow meta in which they’re pigeonholed into, they barely stand a chance against other classes, even when fighting mediocre players. Sure, IF they have berserker stance on, which they most likely do, that’s eight full seconds of not being able to apply any condition to them whatsoever, but if you manage to simply evade them for that measly amount of time, odds are, even a player with a moderate level of skill, can burn them down immediately afterwards. Warriors don’t get to shroud themselves or blink away, they’re a class that requires you to eat damage and time your dodges. Healing signet was exactly where it should have been before its nerf, and that stands even truer now. Warriors can only hope these types of threads are not taken into consideration, but their “balance” history would say otherwise. It’s quickly becoming a case of just wanting to make warriors free kills, while other classes desperately defend their newfound buffs.

Well Anet said recently that they do get their balance suggestions from the forum, so yeah..

Which is doubly amusing because the build that everyone complains about is the least affected by the recent changes.

And yes there is already a thread about it. And the person who created this one was participating in it but didn’t get the answers they were looking for so they decided to try again.

killahmayne.9518:

NinjaEd.3946:

I was hopeing for quick responses, guess I replicated the other post on this exact page O.o

In response to poison, how is it any different from applying poison other profession’s heals which do not cleanse conditions? Also Healing signet is 100% uptime, so the second you take 1 damage it will tick, other healing skills you have to plan for the best possible time to use it.

Lastly, while ~380 health may not seem like a lot, that’s 380 health on a heavy armor profession which more often than not has numerous defenses in their build. Simple example, I would never take healing signet if it was given to my thief even if it was healing me for a large % of my health. Thief naturally gets hit hard given their viable builds don’t invest into a load of toughness. You see the exact opposite result on warrior however because ~380 health is something you can fight with.

An update to the other 3 healing skills would be a great move, but feels like it’d be a power creep without addressing the real problem. Should hit both places at once and address the entire selection of warrior healing skills so no 1 option is superior in an overall build.

I think you missed the point. With active healing skills, you actually have the option if you wanted to, to completely negate the poison and heal for your full amount. Healing Signet does NOT have that option, you take the poison NO matter what, no counterplay. And some healing skills better yet bypass the healing reduction of poison.

And what is the overall net difference in having Healing Signet tick, and using your active heal to heal yourself to full?

Not all warriors invest alot into toughness, many run with 2,500 armor which isn’t a lot given the mechanics of this class. 2,500 can get spiked very hard, and healing signet would not help them very much. People need to get out of the archetype of light, medium and heavy because of factors of healing, stealth, protection, etc that add many intangibles into the equation. They do not impact tankiness as much as people think. For example, the main reason why a Warrior is considered tanky isn’t because they have 150 more armor than a thief at base value.

As a warrior, well should say any profession, you have the choice to run with effective condition removal and warrior has solid options. Cleansing ire, soldier runes with shouts, zerker stance (to ignore any additional applications), brawler’s recovery, generosity sigil (atleast for pvp, wvw/pve is impractical given its cost), shake/shrug it off, etc.

I think only guardian has the potential to heal to “full” with their active because A) signet of resolve heals for a lot and scales off healing power well, and guardian is the lowest health tier so reaching high % health is easier than say a necro using consume conditions with multiple of them. The difference however is with active heals such as withdraw, consume conditions, healing turret (although pretty kitten strong imo), is that you have to find the best time to use those, you wouldn’t pop a 4-6k heal when you were just hit for 2k.

While you are taken down and planning to halt all offense to pop your heal, healing signet lets you continue your rampage. At worst you have to pop shield stance or use ww and rush to fall back and have HS heal you to the fullest amount but those active defenses compliment healing signet and are what I would call unbalanced. I wouldn’t say HS as a skill is necessarily OP, but it is definitely up being on a class with skills like endure pain, shield stance, or heavy vigor for quicker dodges, and having the highest armor rating (heavy armor) and health pool. The armor makes each tick of HS that much more valuable and the high health basically gives your active defensive skills a chance to come off cooldown so you can protect HS and resume your offense.

Not having to take extra time off to actually recover with an active heal and just letting your passive do its thing with no downside isn’t the kind of passive that should be available to any profession. Poison can be removed just like it can be applied and is no different from using shelter or withdraw or troll’s unguent with poison on. I do not want to see healing signet flat out nerfed, I want to see mending/healing surge/defiant stance improved overall (not just a number’s increase) and a suitable adjustment to the active and passive of healing signet that will still keep it in serious play even if it requires a small trait investment to best utilize it.

to the moderator watching over our choice of words, feel free to just merge this thread with the other one on this page. I didn’t expect long response when I made this thread, but since it took that route it doesn’t seem necessary to have 2 threads on the same exact topic. Thank you!

The only problem I have with healing signet is that it’s one of those signets that takes the form:

Passive: Do A Thing.
Active: Do The Same Thing.

This is boring because one of those effects is invariably better than the other. In this case, the passive.

I’m still trying to understand why people believe HS is the culprit, warriors healing comes from 3 different sources if traited, HS by itself sucks big time at 350/per tick, but combine with the traits makes what you believe is to be OP., but wait those traits works on Adrenaline!. So no adrenaline no healing and with the last nerf is very difficult to maintain the adrenaline bar at 100%. In other words the HUGE adrenaline nerf in the last patch also affected our passive healing.
Please get that through your head and stop creating threads about HS.

Thanks

Basically

- Healing Signet doesn’t need a nerf
- Healing Signet could use a functionality change

/end thread no more healing signet threads please

killahmayne.9518:

Basically

- Healing Signet doesn’t need a nerf
- Healing Signet could use a functionality change

/end thread no more healing signet threads please

Pretty much. Healing Signet doesn’t need a nerf, or a buff. It needs a functionality change.

It seems to me a good option is to lower the passive, so that it still has sustainable value, while adding the heal per second difference into the activated function. This theoretically gives it the same value, but no longer promotes the concept of ignoring the active. As well, it gives warriors a bit of a heal in burst situations.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

killahmayne.9518:

Basically

- Healing Signet doesn’t need a nerf
- Healing Signet could use a functionality change

/end thread no more healing signet threads please

Pretty much. Healing Signet doesn’t need a nerf, or a buff. It needs a functionality change.

Couldn’t agree more.

Also I already asked to have this merged with the other HS discussion, I made this to act as a quick poll not draw in a large discussion. Seeing as how it turned to a large discussion it would be best to merge the 2 threads.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

killahmayne.9518:

Basically

- Healing Signet doesn’t need a nerf
- Healing Signet could use a functionality change

/end thread no more healing signet threads please

Pretty much. Healing Signet doesn’t need a nerf, or a buff. It needs a functionality change.

Agreed.

NinjaEd.3946:

Yay, or ney?

This is whether or not healing signet (as it is now) is a well made balanced skill and doesn’t need a functionality or number change. This relates to both the passive and active as a whole.

I don’t think it’s unbalanced atm. That said I do prefer active over passive play; it would be nice to have a better active heal options. Maybe some of the other more active heal skills should be buffed so they don’t completely suck in comparison.

I main a Warrior and I find HSignet to be pretty well balance. The problem is that it is really lame to play and our alternatives a kind of suck for the most part.

I would be in of having it reworked as long as it isn’t a hack job like they did to our adrenalin. They should look at making our other heals viable while they are at it.

killahmayne.9518:

Unless I don’t understand plain english, did you not claim that Healing Signet with Poison applied is as strong as many other profession heals with a 25s CD that do not have poison applied.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Why don’t you break it down for us then and compare that 4,740 heal every 20s to every other heal in the game with poison?

I agree, you may be struggling with plain English.

While I don’t like the passive nature of it, I don’t think it needs a functionality change. Right now Warrior heals are set up like so:

Healing Signet: Constant tics which is meant for builds focused on attrition. While the passive is strong if someone with high DPS can put a big burst on you it’s hard to gain it back without running.

Healing Surge: Large burst heal for more damage based builds. Too bad it punishes you for using your class mechanic which makes it totally unattractive. Especially with the high CD.

Mending: For builds with low condition removal. Would be good if the CD was lower.

Defiant Stance: Either great or totally worthless depending on the situation. Would maybe see more use if affected by Sure Footed for an extra second of use.

They all are tailored to different play styles, however ANet has systematically made any playstyle that isn’t attrition too weak to bother using. A Medi Guard or Shatter Mesmer will have better sustain and damage than say a Bull’s Charge + Frenzy + 100b or an sort of pure glass build that Warrior has. By the time you’ve traited to deal even slightly decent dmg you are totally weak to conditions and if your gap closers fail (as they often do) you’re basically screwed.

Buff the other heals, leave Heal Sig alone.