Guild Wars 2

I’m not expecting much seriousness in this thread, but I do think conditions need a reform.

I don’t understand in what logical world… Anything should be able to cast one skill and walk away after…. And then that persons target dies from its condis.

To test this.. I had a S/S dire condi warrior to hit me with ONE skill. Impale. It put on over 20 seconds of 5 stacks of torment. And when he was on the other side of the sanctum already engaged in a duel, the duration hit about half way, and my health hit zero.

I didn’t move an inch during this test. So torment wasn’t even doing the max damage possible.

Torment was the worst addition to this game in my opinion, but all conditions need a reformation.

—

So obviously for all the naysayers and condi lovers, yes there are counters to taking all of your health in one skill. Dodge it, cleanse it. Doesn’t matter; you can get rid of it. But that is a low cooldown skill and it shows that high damage conditions can be spammed quicker than high damage skills from power to conditions.

One huge problem is that we can train our brains to know, “A warrior has an axe and is leaping on me. I should dodge.” But we can’t train our brain the same way about conditions. One auto attack can do two thousand damage just from a lengthy bleed tick, and pray tell me who would honestly cleanse one bleed stack. There are some telegraphed condition skills out there for sure, but most are the equivalent of a thieves backstab. Deadly and hard to predict.

Torment with my condi dmg (2016) hits for 107-214 per stack.
So 10s of 5 stacks would do 5350 to a non moving target. Please can u let us know how much hp u have?

How do we not know to dodge a attack simply because it is an attack that applies a condition? That is irrational and illogical. What skill was it you refer too? What is its recast? Are you suggesting that the warrior has no comparative direct damage skill? I find that hard to believe.

Did all of the skills in the weapon set do similar damage? Or are you singling out the heavy to irrationally try to suggest one single skill represents condition damage as a whole? Seems more like it is an issue of a single skills balance then anything across the board.

The most irrational point to u made though, is pointing out that it took 20 seconds to kill the target, when direct damage builds have multiple attacks that do 2 k damage and more and do it all instantly instead of taking 20 seconds. It just baffles me that your okay with attacks that do the exact same damage instantly, but when the same damage takes an entire 20 seconds to unfold you think it is unfair. That makes absolutely no sense.

I have 15.5k hp. I can’t tell you details about the warrior, but it got me down in 10-15 seconds and I was amazed.

Also, there really aren’t skills that down people with 15.5k health and 1700 toughness in one hit that aren’t easy as hell to dodge. But who is to know one little sword thrown at you could take all your life.

Mbelch.9028:

I have 15.5k hp. I can’t tell you details about the Warriors th, but it got me down in 10-15 seconds and I was amazed.

Any might stacks.
Did you notice how much the dmg floaters ticked for? That will help determine a lot.

But even with 3k Condi damage torment ticks for 144 to 288
So 5 stacks for 10s would be 7200
5 stacks for 20s would be 14,400

Brando.1374:

Mbelch.9028:

I have 15.5k hp. I can’t tell you details about the warrior, but it got me down in 10-15 seconds and I was amazed.

Any might stacks.
Did you notice how much the dmg floaters ticked for? That will help determine a lot.

Nope I just had him throw his skill cold and leave. It didn’t seem like they were ticking for more than 750.

Mbelch.9028:

Brando.1374:

Mbelch.9028:

I have 15.5k hp. I can’t tell you details about the warrior, but it got me down in 10-15 seconds and I was amazed.

Any might stacks.
Did you notice how much the dmg floaters ticked for? That will help determine a lot.

Nope I just had him throw his skill cold and leave. It didn’t seem like they were ticking for more than 750.

That warrior must have had quite a few might stacks to do that kind of damage.

He had no might stacks. Just 5 stacks of torment. It was on there for a long time.

Isn’t Impale 5 stacks of 12s of Torment? With +100% condition duration it turns to 5 stacks of 24s of Torment.

stof.9341:

Isn’t Impale 5 stacks of 12s of Torment? With +100% condition duration it turns to 5 stacks of 24s of Torment.

Yup I believe so.

This is more a statement about the insanity that can be condi skills and builds.

100 blades is just one skill either.
backstab is just one skill either.
poison grenades is just one skill either.

condition remove.

Whats the point of this thread?
You let a 20s long condition ticking away your health and you died from it and you find it OP or … what?

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vIAQJAsMEAMPAAAAOPAAAAA-z0BBIhBkWAgkGMDtIas11FRjVJjIqWpEjUAwMNC-w

Add in a few might or corruption stacks for extra damage.
Moral of the story? Use cleanse.

But your stating all condition damage across the board needs a complete overhaul based on one skill. Wouldn’t it make more sense to balance that particular skill instead?

I mean what a a shock right? A warrior skill is over powered, who would have guessed right? So clearly the right thing to do is, as you did, make an unreasonable claim that condition damage needs a rework. If your using anything related to the warrior as the pinnacle of balance, then that is your first mistake. Certainly this particular skill needs to be toned down, but many other condition skills do not.

Impale is an exception to the rule since you can’t cleanse it. Impale though has always been like this back when it was bleeds because the sword is stuck inside you. It did the same thing bleeds stack up to five and then drop back down to 1 now it’s torment instead of impale.

It’s a unique skill because the best you can do is cleanse it down to I think 1 stack but it builds back up if it is still on the uptick of the debuff. The impale is a debuff. It’s not a good representation of the other condition damage skills in the game nothing else is like it.

It could be changed to making 1 stack on hit and the 4 others when ripped. The animation is easy to see but can get lost when there is alot going. It is the only thing that is dangerous on a S/S warrior though the bleeds are easily cleansed and the leap is easily dodged.

The bow on a condition warrior is more dangerous then S/S. Impale can spell G/G but that doesn’t matter if its a condi warrior or a power one and it’s more dangerous on a power warrior.

Yeah its nearly the same as stating that “i eated the damage of two 100blades, nerf power!”.

Dalanor.5387:

Yeah its nearly the same as stating that “i eated the damage of two 100blades, nerf power!”.

Thing is, a single 100 blades would have killed him if a single Impale did.

hah, yeah… impale is dumb

ive 1 shot an uplevel’d ele before… s/s ham warrior, the poor kid was on a tower wall. laughed my kitten off.

oh yeah, my wars condi set (dire) is rare with exotic weapons LOL

so if someone stood hitting someone else for 20 seconds with a power based skill it wouldnt kill them?

this thread is pointless.

This thread may be pointless to some of you. If so, kitten off lol.

You can’t say anything about skill. Yes, I swapped to water attunement and saved myself before death, but the point is someone can throw one skill, walk away, fight someone else and his target will die.

No power build can do that. And if you say it can, prove it with video evidence. It’s just not possible.

Im just staying in general that I feel condis need a shave down. Coglin, you are a condi engie who will forever want condi buffs. I’m happy for you. You can stand down, As I already know your position.

A warrior could 100b me, but the one skill wouldn’t kill me. It could kill shot me, but it wouldn’t kill me. A thief could backstab me, but even at its glassiest, the thief can’t 1 hit me unless it gets sigil procs.

And again, if you don’t understand the point of the thread, why comment? I’m remarking about how nuts it is that a skill can be thrown, a person can walk away, and the opponent is hit by enough damage that one skill would down the person. That is crazy in my opinion, no matter how much counter play there is for it.

whats your toughness? kill shot could prolly 1 shot you.

Mbelch.9028:

This thread may be pointless to some of you. If so, kitten off lol.

You can’t say anything about skill. Yes, I swapped to water attunement and saved myself before death, but the point is someone can throw one skill, walk away, fight someone else and his target will die.

No power build can do that. And if you say it can, prove it with video evidence. It’s just not possible.

Im just staying in general that I feel condis need a shave down. Coglin, you are a condi engie who will forever want condi buffs. I’m happy for you. You can stand down, As I already know your position.

A warrior could 100b me, but the one skill wouldn’t kill me. It could kill shot me, but it wouldn’t kill me. A thief could backstab me, but even at its glassiest, the thief can’t 1 hit me unless it gets sigil procs.

And again, if you don’t understand the point of the thread, why comment? I’m remarking about how nuts it is that a skill can be thrown, a person can walk away, and the opponent is hit by enough damage that one skill would down the person. That is crazy in my opinion, no matter how much counter play there is for it.

I could drop a meteor shower on you and walk away only to return to your corpse, that is if you were foolish enough to stand in it, which you wouldn’t be (I hope). Same goes for condi, you wouldn’t be foolish enough to keep it on the entire duration, you have cleanses use them, that’s what they’re there for. Conditions are damage over time, glad you grasped that, so you are obviously going to be able to walk away after throwing your condition on them and have them suffer the damage.

As a ranger I can use entangle and get about 12k from bleeding damage if somebody stays in the roots for the entire duration and doesn’t cleanse any of the bleeds. Unfortunately that never happens, because people cleanse the condition. So instead of wondering why a condition did so much damage on you coming from a condition based warrior, L2 use condi cleanse BEFORE it eats your health.

prove him wrong on the stats over and over again, and after that, over and over again. don’t care. behind our heads, we all know something is terribly wrong with conditions and that’s why it’s good because it’s so bad. thus meta.

I agree that its absurd that you get killed by a single ability. However, this is not a condition problem this is a Warrior problem.

There are plenty of absurdly hard hitting direct-damage attacks. But when i eat a 12k thief backstab i dont run to the forums and demand we nerf all direct-damage across all professions and builds. Because that is utterly absurd and shows a horribly biased opinion, rather then an ability to distinguish the problem.

Mbelch.9028:

This thread may be pointless to some of you. If so, kitten off lol.

You can’t say anything about skill. Yes, I swapped to water attunement and saved myself before death, but the point is someone can throw one skill, walk away, fight someone else and his target will die.

No power build can do that. And if you say it can, prove it with video evidence. It’s just not possible.

Im just staying in general that I feel condis need a shave down. Coglin, you are a condi engie who will forever want condi buffs. I’m happy for you. You can stand down, As I already know your position.

A warrior could 100b me, but the one skill wouldn’t kill me. It could kill shot me, but it wouldn’t kill me. A thief could backstab me, but even at its glassiest, the thief can’t 1 hit me unless it gets sigil procs.

And again, if you don’t understand the point of the thread, why comment? I’m remarking about how nuts it is that a skill can be thrown, a person can walk away, and the opponent is hit by enough damage that one skill would down the person. That is crazy in my opinion, no matter how much counter play there is for it.

sigh.
logic op:
if any skill was to hit you for 20 seconds you would be dead.

conditions are not the problem here. what it boils down to is a l2p issue: cleanse condi damage/conditions are a DOT element of the game; block direct damage/direct damage is a burst element of the game.

just because someone can use a skill and walk away doesnt mean you will die; you wouldnt just sit and let a warrior autoattack you for 20 seconds…. its the same thing.

lol, this thread!

This thread is kind of funny.
The only thing I agree with the OP is that Impale needs to be reworked a bit.
Also, anyone with half a decent understanding of the game would know that any skill with 0,5s cast time is undodgeable unless predicted or unless the opponent is simply spamming his skills.
But that’s it. It’s “only” impale that needs rework. Anything else is fine. I have fought condi users as a power user, and have fought power users as a condi users. Conditions are fine, some classes have better condition cleanse than others, but believe me that most things are quite balanced at the moment.

godofcows.2451:

prove him wrong on the stats over and over again, and after that, over and over again. don’t care. behind our heads, something is terribly wrong with conditions and that’s why it’s good because it’s so bad. thus meta.

It has nothing to do with “conditions” , and to suggest so is simply irratiomal. It has to do with a single skill having an overpowered base condition duration. What everyone thinks “behind their heads” as you put it, is how irrationally biased one has to be to claim condition damage is a problem based on one single skill. There are both OP direct damage skills, condition skills, and even auxillary skills. That doesn’t justify claimins they are bad as a whole.

Brando.1374:

Mbelch.9028:

I have 15.5k hp. I can’t tell you details about the Warriors th, but it got me down in 10-15 seconds and I was amazed.

Any might stacks.
Did you notice how much the dmg floaters ticked for? That will help determine a lot.

But even with 3k Condi damage torment ticks for 144 to 288
So 5 stacks for 10s would be 7200
5 stacks for 20s would be 14,400

Change #1 that should happen. Why is Might giving players more condi damage?

No…just no. Anet, you’re not thinking again.

RlyOsim.2497:

Mbelch.9028:

This thread may be pointless to some of you. If so, kitten off lol.

You can’t say anything about skill. Yes, I swapped to water attunement and saved myself before death, but the point is someone can throw one skill, walk away, fight someone else and his target will die.

No power build can do that. And if you say it can, prove it with video evidence. It’s just not possible.

Im just staying in general that I feel condis need a shave down. Coglin, you are a condi engie who will forever want condi buffs. I’m happy for you. You can stand down, As I already know your position.

A warrior could 100b me, but the one skill wouldn’t kill me. It could kill shot me, but it wouldn’t kill me. A thief could backstab me, but even at its glassiest, the thief can’t 1 hit me unless it gets sigil procs.

And again, if you don’t understand the point of the thread, why comment? I’m remarking about how nuts it is that a skill can be thrown, a person can walk away, and the opponent is hit by enough damage that one skill would down the person. That is crazy in my opinion, no matter how much counter play there is for it.

sigh.
logic op:
if any skill was to hit you for 20 seconds you would be dead.

conditions are not the problem here. what it boils down to is a l2p issue: cleanse condi damage/conditions are a DOT element of the game; block direct damage/direct damage is a burst element of the game.

just because someone can use a skill and walk away doesnt mean you will die; you wouldnt just sit and let a warrior autoattack you for 20 seconds…. its the same thing.

The problem is that actually attacking someone for 20 seconds takes effort and skill. A condition just sitting on a player doesn’t.

Chant “condi cleanse” all you want, its still effortless damage stacked on top of anything else you’re doing during the fight. It isn’t OP because he stood there and let it hit him, it’s OP because he could have also been getting slapped with multiple stacks of bleed, cripple, chill, poison, etc.

Also, anyone who thinks condis aren’t re-applied faster than they are cleansed simply doesn’t play at a high-level of skill. Watch any fight at any point in time between any two classes. Condis are always up at any given point…..well except against most guard builds, they’re left in the dust in that department for some unexplained reason.

If you fight someone and you don’t have condis active on you, chances are he’s a terrible player that is reacting poorly to combat.

hihey.1075:

This thread is kind of funny.
The only thing I agree with the OP is that Impale needs to be reworked a bit.
Also, anyone with half a decent understanding of the game would know that any skill with 0,5s cast time is undodgeable unless predicted or unless the opponent is simply spamming his skills.
But that’s it. It’s “only” impale that needs rework. Anything else is fine. I have fought condi users as a power user, and have fought power users as a condi users. Conditions are fine, some classes have better condition cleanse than others, but believe me that most things are quite balanced at the moment.

Your power builds were what?

Your condi builds were what?

For example, power war vs. condi mes = mes stomps ur face unless he’s high/drunk or both.

You have no context to your claims and nobody knows what kind of players you fight against. Are you constantly fighting terrible players that would lose to you no matter what your build is?

Impale is pretty ridiculous if you get hit by it. Current pin down → impale is a combo I see a lot of condi warriors using, hopefully the Pin Down rework will tone down condition warrior a fair bit.

Dalanor.5387:

Mbelch.9028:

And again, if you don’t understand the point of the thread, why comment? I’m remarking about how nuts it is that a skill can be thrown, a person can walk away, and the opponent is hit by enough damage that one skill would down the person. That is crazy in my opinion, no matter how much counter play there is for it.

Because this thread is just a trolling bait and don’t makes sense?
As i said before, you ate a big amount of damage while doing nothing and you died … Well thats what people should expect. You know, damage kills you, but conditions need time, while direct damage deals the same in way less time. Get it? No? Your problem. Just don’t whine, it’s boring that everyday someone come to the forums with the same pointless stuff.

Except Torment punishes you for moving. So him doing nothing is actually a way of avoiding 50% damage from Torment.

It’s a bone-headed condi and it’s the complete opposite of what it should have been. 50% more damage for standing still.

And people come on every day posting about how condis are OP, but I guess that means they’re just fine…right?

Problem #1 with condis: Might grants extra condi damage…why? Give me a solid reason why Might is the only boon that effects condis. Protection doesn’t reduce incoming condi damage, Retaliation doesn’t proc off of condi ticks/applications, Stability doesn’t protect against cripple/chill/blind, Fury doesn’t grant 20% more proc chance to condi procs. Why does Might give condi damage?

Problem #2 with condis: damage is not spread out over multiple stats…you only need condi damage. Which means stacking defense and kiting is the best way to use condis since you’ve already maxed your damage through one stat. You’re not trading defense for damage with condi builds, you’re gaining both defense AND damage.

Redscope.6215:

Problem #2 with condis: damage is not spread out over multiple stats…you only need condi damage. Which means stacking defense and kiting is the best way to use condis since you’ve already maxed your damage through one stat.

Try playing condi necro or condi engi with no condi duration or precision.

K U T M.4539:

Redscope.6215:

Problem #2 with condis: damage is not spread out over multiple stats…you only need condi damage. Which means stacking defense and kiting is the best way to use condis since you’ve already maxed your damage through one stat.

Try playing condi necro or condi engi with no condi duration or precision.

Try getting condi duration on your gear. Let me know how that stat works out for ya.

Condition damage can certainly do really high damage BUT! it takes a loooong time and it can be cleansed midway, no decent player will ever let a condition run its full duration, doing that is like staying still taking a beating of direct damage

you see, cleanse is to condition damage what dodge/block is to direct damage and you have to learn to use it, condition damage is quite well balanced and, as with any other skill, there might certainly be some op skills that need some tweaking, bun that does not make conditions, as a whole, unbalanced

Edited by Moderator

Redscope.6215:

Change #1 that should happen. Why is Might giving players more condi damage?

No…just no. Anet, you’re not thinking again.

Think how power damage and condi damage scales.
Hint: 3 stats + vulnerability + might + sigils, all of that skyrockets the damage through the roof, while condi is linear and scales badly tough it ignores armor, but as “magic damage” it should do it anyway.

edit: Oh i forgot damage modifiers which doesn’t affect conditions in any way. And all of this is multiplicative.

Edited by Moderator

korelg.7862:

Condition damage can certainly do really high damage BUT! it takes a loooong time and it can be cleansed midway, no decent player will ever let a condition run its full duration, doing that is like staying still taking a beating of direct damage

you see, cleanse is to condition damage what dodge/block is to direct damage and you have to learn to use it, condition damage is quite well balanced and, as with any other skill, there might certainly be some op skills that need some tweaking, bun that does not make conditions, as a whole, unbalanced

What class(es) do you play and how are you cleansing your condis?

Got any vids up so you can prove that there are periods of time that you’re avoiding condi damage just as long as those where you avoid direct damage?
—————————-
Edited by Moderator

Redscope.6215:

korelg.7862:

Condition damage can certainly do really high damage BUT! it takes a loooong time and it can be cleansed midway, no decent player will ever let a condition run its full duration, doing that is like staying still taking a beating of direct damage

you see, cleanse is to condition damage what dodge/block is to direct damage and you have to learn to use it, condition damage is quite well balanced and, as with any other skill, there might certainly be some op skills that need some tweaking, bun that does not make conditions, as a whole, unbalanced

What class(es) do you play and how are you cleansing your condis?

Got any vids up so you can prove that there are periods of time that you’re avoiding condi damage just as long as those where you avoid direct damage?

Are you aware of the fact that your active defense against direct damage is limited too? Or you have some magical infinite dodge build that isn’t affected by Weakness with 0 condi cleanse?
——————————-
Edited by Moderator

Dalanor.5387:

Redscope.6215:

korelg.7862:

OP is so wrong that it hurts… condition damage can certainly do really high damage BUT! it takes a loooong time and it can be cleansed midway, no decent player will ever let a condition run its full duration, doing that is like staying still taking a beating of direct damage

you see, cleanse is to condition damage what dodge/block is to direct damage and you have to learn to use it, condition damage is quite well balanced and, as with any other skill, there might certainly be some op skills that need some tweaking, bun that does not make conditions, as a whole, unbalanced

What class(es) do you play and how are you cleansing your condis?

Got any vids up so you can prove that there are periods of time that you’re avoiding condi damage just as long as those where you avoid direct damage?

Are you aware of the fact that your active defense against direct damage is limited too? Or you have some magical infinite dodge build that isn’t affected by Weakness with 0 condi cleanse?

Actively dodging an attack that applies a condition dodges the condition too. That point is moot. You’re conflating the issue with falsehoods. Dodge is not there to specifically dodge direct damage, it avoids all attacks made at the current point in time.

You’re making my point. Condis are up for long periods of time and clears have long cooldowns. Dodging is extremely limited (outside of Thieves and Mesmers) and Weakness can be kept up almost indefinitely for some classes. You’re basically proving that the best way to fight is to minimize direct damage through condis, apply damage through condis, stay at a distance (kite), and save your dodges for when your target nearly lands something large on you.

korelg.7862:

you see, cleanse is to condition damage what dodge/block is to direct damage …

You know that you can dodge/block/blind/… condition damage as well? Ok you cant dodge the conditions still applied but all the new one from the blocked attack. So it is the same thing it would do against direct damage.

Conditions apply their damage over time and you can still cleanse them midways. Power builds deal more damage and you cant do anything after you got hit. Theoretically conditions are much more forgiving for the target then direct damage is and people still have more problems with conditions then direct damage.

Redscope.6215:

Dalanor.5387:

Redscope.6215:

korelg.7862:

OP is so wrong that it hurts… condition damage can certainly do really high damage BUT! it takes a loooong time and it can be cleansed midway, no decent player will ever let a condition run its full duration, doing that is like staying still taking a beating of direct damage

you see, cleanse is to condition damage what dodge/block is to direct damage and you have to learn to use it, condition damage is quite well balanced and, as with any other skill, there might certainly be some op skills that need some tweaking, bun that does not make conditions, as a whole, unbalanced

What class(es) do you play and how are you cleansing your condis?

Got any vids up so you can prove that there are periods of time that you’re avoiding condi damage just as long as those where you avoid direct damage?

Are you aware of the fact that your active defense against direct damage is limited too? Or you have some magical infinite dodge build that isn’t affected by Weakness with 0 condi cleanse?

Actively dodging an attack that applies a condition dodges the condition too. That point is moot. You’re conflating the issue with falsehoods. Dodge is not there to specifically dodge direct damage, it avoids all attacks made at the current point in time.

You’re making my point. Condis are up for long periods of time and clears have long cooldowns. Dodging is extremely limited (outside of Thieves and Mesmers) and Weakness can be kept up almost indefinitely for some classes. You’re basically proving that the best way to fight is to minimize direct damage through condis, apply damage through condis, stay at a distance (kite), and save your dodges for when your target nearly lands something large on you.

You already answered yourself.
Conditions takes time to deal the full damage, thus you have more time to react and while dodge is negating the damage fully, same as direct damage, it can be further negated by condi cleanse.
Sooo, what now?

whyme.3281:

korelg.7862:

you see, cleanse is to condition damage what dodge/block is to direct damage …

You know that you can dodge/block/blind/… condition damage as well? Ok you cant dodge the conditions still applied but all the new one from the blocked attack. So it is the same thing it would do against direct damage.

Conditions apply their damage over time and you can still cleanse them midways. Power builds deal more damage and you cant do anything after you got hit. Theoretically conditions are much more forgiving for the target then direct damage is and people still have more problems with conditions then direct damage.

You act as though you cleanse a condition and that’s the end of the fight. They’re re-applied faster than your clearing skills come back.

Not to mention the most effective way of condi application is short, frequrent bursts to nullify cleansing.

Redscope.6215:

korelg.7862:

Condition damage can certainly do really high damage BUT! it takes a loooong time and it can be cleansed midway, no decent player will ever let a condition run its full duration, doing that is like staying still taking a beating of direct damage

you see, cleanse is to condition damage what dodge/block is to direct damage and you have to learn to use it, condition damage is quite well balanced and, as with any other skill, there might certainly be some op skills that need some tweaking, bun that does not make conditions, as a whole, unbalanced

What class(es) do you play and how are you cleansing your condis?

Got any vids up so you can prove that there are periods of time that you’re avoiding condi damage just as long as those where you avoid direct damage?

I play Mesmer (main), Guardian, Thief and Warrior.

on Mesmer I use cleanse mantra and cleanse on heal, on Guardian healing signet, 1 cleanse every 10(?) sec trait and consecration depending on the situation, as for my thief and warrior I havent played much pvp with them.

now, as Dalanor and Whyme said, you can even prevent condition from being aplied to you, so for condi damage you have the usual active defense (dodge/block/blind) and on top of that you can cleanse them midway AND the full damage takes a really long time, in some cases you can even heal twice in between

for direct damage you have the usual active defense and toughnes/armor, so both are pretty much balanced

direct damage can be diminished pasively via toughnes, condi damage can be diminished actively via cleanse. Both sources of damage have their own gameplay and are quite well balanced

almos forgot you can use -condi duration runes/food which directly reduces the condition damage aplied to you, having -40% condi duration instantly reduced 40% of the damage!! is like having perma protection but even stronger

Edited by Moderator

Redscope.6215:

Secondly, direct damage is countered directly by toughness. Use that big, sexy human brain of yours and figure something out. Since conditions have no direct counter, they effect everyone equally. Therefore, high toughness targets don’t counter condi damage. So while Might-stacking is there to boost your damage against the toughness counter, why does it boost condi damage?

Ever thought about this: conditions are meant to counter tanks?
And that low toughness tagets (like zerkers) counter condition builds, because they wont get any extra damage because of their lack of defense?

Some people aren’t looking at the discussion here.

This is using impale as support to claim conditions are to strong. Impale is an outlier and has been since release nobody complained about it cause lol condi warrior back then.

It’s like a kill shot putting out 20k which it can and saying power is out of control. The fact that kill shot is easily telegraphed doent matter it’s just about the final result.

Impale is a outlier skill since release since you can’t cleanse it. Just reduce its damage until the debuff is gone.

korelg.7862:

Redscope.6215:

korelg.7862:

OP is so wrong that it hurts… condition damage can certainly do really high damage BUT! it takes a loooong time and it can be cleansed midway, no decent player will ever let a condition run its full duration, doing that is like staying still taking a beating of direct damage

you see, cleanse is to condition damage what dodge/block is to direct damage and you have to learn to use it, condition damage is quite well balanced and, as with any other skill, there might certainly be some op skills that need some tweaking, bun that does not make conditions, as a whole, unbalanced

What class(es) do you play and how are you cleansing your condis?

Got any vids up so you can prove that there are periods of time that you’re avoiding condi damage just as long as those where you avoid direct damage?

I play Mesmer (main), Guardian, Thief and Warrior.

on Mesmer I use cleanse mantra and cleanse on heal, on Guardian healing signet, 1 cleanse every 10(?) sec trait and consecration depending on the situation, as for my thief and warrior I havent played much pvp with them.

now, as Dalanor and Whyme said, you can even prevent condition from being aplied to you, so for condi damage you have the usual active defense (dodge/block/blind) and on top of that you can cleanse them midway AND the full damage takes a really long time, in some cases you can even heal twice in between

for direct damage you have the usual active defense and toughnes/armor, so both are pretty much balanced

direct damage can be diminished pasively via toughnes, condi damage can be diminished actively via cleanse. Both sources of damage have their own gameplay and are quite well balanced

See, this guy gets it. CONTEXT.

Anyway, yeah your Guardian has 10s of all condis up and then he clears one. My guess is that you’re burning through Purging Flames as often as it comes back, if you’ve got no other condi removal.

Also, you have good condi removal on your Mesmer? You should take that build to the mes forums. I’m not being condescending or anything here…I’m serious. They all seem to think that mes is terrible for condi cleanse.

Condi damage doesn’t take a ‘really long time’ to stack up depending on your situation. A mes with 20 in Dueling can stack a consistent 10 bleeds on you during the fight. On top of everything else he’s doing, just add about 5-10 stacks of bleed. That’s 212 to 425 damage per second with no extra condi damage. That means in the amount of time it would take your Signet of Resolve to clear it, you would have been hit with 2120 to 4250 damage from a mes’ clones with no extra condi damage.

With a condi-built mes in sPvP, you’ve going to have at least 1.1k Malice. Which means every bleed stack you get hit with does 152 damage per second. That same situation with a condi build would have nailed you for 7620 to 15250 damage over a 10 second period.

Those bleeds don’t go away simply because you used a clear. They keep getting re-applied by clones. And don’t forget, the mes isn’t just hanging out while all this is going on.

Guardians are about the best condi clearing class in the game and they’ll still die to bleeding more often than any other incoming damage.

whyme.3281:

Redscope.6215:

Secondly, direct damage is countered directly by toughness. Use that big, sexy human brain of yours and figure something out. Since conditions have no direct counter, they effect everyone equally. Therefore, high toughness targets don’t counter condi damage. So while Might-stacking is there to boost your damage against the toughness counter, why does it boost condi damage?

Ever thought about this: conditions are meant to counter tanks?
And that low toughness tagets (like zerkers) counter condition builds, because they wont get any extra damage because of their lack of defense?

That’d be great if direct damage countered conditions. It’d be like rock/paper/scissors. Tank counters direct, condi counters tank, direct counters condi.

But it doesn’t work that way.

Conditions can counter every build.

Redscope.6215:

whyme.3281:

Redscope.6215:

Secondly, direct damage is countered directly by toughness. Use that big, sexy human brain of yours and figure something out. Since conditions have no direct counter, they effect everyone equally. Therefore, high toughness targets don’t counter condi damage. So while Might-stacking is there to boost your damage against the toughness counter, why does it boost condi damage?

Ever thought about this: conditions are meant to counter tanks?
And that low toughness tagets (like zerkers) counter condition builds, because they wont get any extra damage because of their lack of defense?

That’d be great if direct damage countered conditions. It’d be like rock/paper/scissors. Tank counters direct, condi counters tank, direct counters condi.

But it doesn’t work that way.

Conditions can counter every build.

Condi damage can be countered by a condi-tank, how? stack vitality and -condi duration, put some cleansing utilities and you have the perfect condi tank, direct damage will eat you alive though, but thats ok you can’t expect to counter everything with 1 build, can you?

EDIT: ugh… is it me or posts are dissappearing? too bad, we had such a good discussion here…

Redscope.6215:

whyme.3281:

Redscope.6215:

Secondly, direct damage is countered directly by toughness. Use that big, sexy human brain of yours and figure something out. Since conditions have no direct counter, they effect everyone equally. Therefore, high toughness targets don’t counter condi damage. So while Might-stacking is there to boost your damage against the toughness counter, why does it boost condi damage?

Ever thought about this: conditions are meant to counter tanks?
And that low toughness tagets (like zerkers) counter condition builds, because they wont get any extra damage because of their lack of defense?

That’d be great if direct damage countered conditions. It’d be like rock/paper/scissors. Tank counters direct, condi counters tank, direct counters condi.

But it doesn’t work that way.

Conditions can counter every build.

Why can conditions counter every build? Is it the damage, some skills, CC thats effected by condi duration….?

In my oppinion, its the toughness you get as secondary stat with every condi set. I would change this to vitality and only allow thoughness on the C/V/T set.
The damage is fine, the mechanic is fine (only diamond skin needs to go/nerfed and the engi trait) and some skills needs small reworks, but thats it.

Redscope.6215:

whyme.3281:

Redscope.6215:

Secondly, direct damage is countered directly by toughness. Use that big, sexy human brain of yours and figure something out. Since conditions have no direct counter, they effect everyone equally. Therefore, high toughness targets don’t counter condi damage. So while Might-stacking is there to boost your damage against the toughness counter, why does it boost condi damage?

Ever thought about this: conditions are meant to counter tanks?
And that low toughness tagets (like zerkers) counter condition builds, because they wont get any extra damage because of their lack of defense?

That’d be great if direct damage countered conditions. It’d be like rock/paper/scissors. Tank counters direct, condi counters tank, direct counters condi.

But it doesn’t work that way.

Conditions can counter every build.

Lets fix this:

• conditions counter pvp
• direct damage counter pve
• tank counters wvw

Problem, officer?

pza.8024:

Lets fix this:

• conditions counter pvp
• direct damage counter pve
• tank counters wvw

Problem, officer?

build variety?

whyme.3281:

pza.8024:

Lets fix this:

• conditions counter pvp
• direct damage counter pve
• tank counters wvw

Problem, officer?

build variety?

there is, in form of different kinds of support. but that’s not the topic and its importance arguable.

my point is, a major condition nerf would affect mostly pvp meta and make viability of pve and wvw condi builds even worse, reducing their build variety.

careful one must be when suggesting major stuff.