Guild Wars 2

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

oZii.2864:

Using the same parameters in this test which is be a power build and use one skill walk away and kill someone that stands there with 15.5k hp.

This should be able to be done with:

Meteor shower on a glass ele
Summon fire elemental
Summon hounds of Balthazar
Any power ranger
Any Mesmer
Thieves guild
Ambush trap thief might be able to pull this off.

These would recreate the same scenario in a power build and result in a kill of a 15.5k afk person.

Mesmer and rangers can always do this with the Mesmer killing 2 afk people summon duelist on one zerker on the other I believe leash range is 1500?

EDIT: forgot to add any necromancers minion.

Also forgot Blood is Power with maxed bleed duration and condition damage. That one is possible to hit 18k damage with just the one skill, but it takes 1 minute to happen in full (plus, if not removed from the necro, causes him to take 6k damage)

Leaving rocket turret, thumper turret, and rifle turret as well. All 3 are direct damage and have no limit what so ever as to how far away from them I can go as long as the player that laid them does not leave the map.

hooma.9642:

1. your listed combofinishers dont work on the one executing that combofinisher

Incorrect. Throw wrench or Throw shield are simply 2 examples. Videos, posted, documented and proven well over a year ago. Any projectile skill with returning projectiles will cleanse you. As well, any projectile used from in the field at melee range, as the cleanse is a 180 AoE cleanse, with the range based off of the mob hit.

hooma.9642:

2. so you say berserker stance is such a problem? its 2/15 off the fight duration active. i cant call that active defense. all its does it opens up a tiny time frame to kill the condi user (if he cant defend themself for 8s) without worry about pressure. u know the biggest condi-classes can kite and apply condis 100% of the time at the same time (ranged condi application ftw)?

Please quote the section of my post in which I even resembled “calling Berzerker Stance a problem”………All I did was list it as an active defense against conditions. You may chose to refuse to acknowledge it as an active skill all you wish. You may also wish to believe the world is flat. In either case, blind belief does not make it true. WHen you activate a skill to cause an effect, in this case a full and complete immunity to an entire damage type, it is very literally the definition of an active defensive skill.

As to your comments about kiting, what does whether it is condition damage or direct damage have to do with kiting? I have a great power build with grenades/bomb that does marginally more damage then full dire gear, and may kite you at convenience in very equal measure. It has been videos, posted, and proven, many threads over, that grenades and bombs do more direct damage then they do condition damage. Among the educated community, this fact is common knowledge.

hooma.9642:

3. how i said in my post. dodging bullsrush destroys the whole burst combo. the same goes for a lot of raw dmg bursts but for this example its the easiest to show. on the other hand dodging 1 aa just negates the condiapplication of that aa, but not the condiapplication via trait or sigills or runes. if the attack isnt hitting, the traits ( some have no cooldown) and runes dont go on cooldown. as example you could fight against a necro with dhuumfire and dodge 90% of his attacks. u would still get burned.
4. your list of possible condiremoves are nice but useless. how about u calculate how often u can remove condis and the reapplication? u will see there is a big difference. do the same with raw-burst combo.

Umm, this doesn’t make any sense at all. How does dodging an attack still allow the sigils or trait damage to apply? That is not how it works. A direct attack has to connect (most times with a crit) for any trait or sigil proc to occur.

I missed the “as a power build” requirement. My bad

It’s going to be hard to see balance in these areas because honestly, it’s complicated. For one issue, Condition cleansing options are hurting for some classes and builds yet overabundant for others. Just about every classes condition removal probably needs to be revisited and improved to be more customizable to their strengths/weaknesses in regards to new trait options.

Also, context, context, context. We must be careful when citing skills to prove points, because every class has its own synergetics and skill symbiosis that works differently in different situations and many who don’t main these classes are completely ignorant of them. The person who mentioned Emphathetic Bond for rangers failed to for example mention the risk of how it can effectively obliterate your pet and cripple your damage output. Despite that it is indeed a consistently powerful removal tool but only with the right pets (Ie. anything with drake survivability or higher which cuts out cats and canines.) and additional buffs to support the pet’s ability to soak the damage.. namely regeneration and signet presence, which must be built/traited for. Running with the ideal setup to support it in turn sees a potential reduction in CC/damage output and build options of the ranger. Similarily, other classes have their problems where they generally have to sacrifice something to gain the ideal cleansing, and it IS POSSIBLE to sacrifice too much with certain classes.

At any rate, for condition damage it actually needs better application/re-application options/improvements in Zerg-scale fights and boss fights to be more viable outside small-scale. It simply needs to be far less susceptible to mindless AoE cleanse spam. However at the same time they should not be buffed to such that individual level condition cleanse becomes any less effective especially when in many cases it’s lacking. Perhaps you could have “Plague” or “Infection” mechanics where certain conditions spread in clustered formations, but only up to a certain extent to avoid it becoming OP. These functionality improvements could be made universally available to all classes through traits so those who want to build zerg condi pressure could do so, but at a cost/sacrifice. Moving on, certainly PvE Bosses need to have condition limits removed or changed and so condition has its place in PvE even during high numbered events. Bosses can in turn retain resilience befitting their respective placements by being made to include more unique anti-condition and anti-physical mechanics similar to the Scarlet Holograms to add that complication factor to fights that we enjoy. (Only not permanent.. projectile reflect, condition reflect and physical reduction casted as boon skills instead of constantly active.) That would flavour up PvE a lot more if more bosses required you to do more than simply dodge attacks but watch your own attack sequence timing carefully as well.

As for survivability and how condition builds can get an arguably better ride out of it.. that’s its own can of worms. Since applied conditions continue to tick away even with the applier himself goes evade mode spamming his dodges and distance creators/blocks (until they are removed of course), it enables half and half and similar tanky-ish condi builds to retain survivability not quite befitting of their at times high damage output due to a lack of risk from the application process. This is also on account of many condition applying skills being extremely brief, 1 second or shorter animations whilst containing small stacks (1-3) that are easily built up with a few button mashes. There needs to be more risk and harder transition between survival methodology and reaping the benefits of massive condi stacking. The only true solution may be to limit the access of condition builds to active defense skills; skills that create distances, blinds, evading weapon skills, and skills that both evade and simultaneously build large distances. The risk in that though is that you could cut off access of builds that are more dependent on them to such survival utilities. In addition, condition builds obviously still need to retain a certain amount of these available through trait and utility sacrifices albeit maybe just a bit less of them in contrast to what they have now so we’d have to avoid overdoing it on the mobilility and active defense nerfs.

In summary, the whole issue is probably bigger than it should be because small things work together for big results. The direction to fix this is probably in the ways of a lot of small improvements and small nerfs, rather than a big miracle patch. It’s probably not going to see any quick fix.

Why do people get on conditions continuing to tick after the hit like they’re somehow doing more damage than power builds? They aren’t. They are merely doing the damage over a longer period. If you dodge after hitting with a direct damage attack, you aren’t reducing the damage of the hits you already landed. The same is true of condition builds. However, their DPS is decreased just the same: while dodging, they aren’t attacking.

The only difference is that their DPS suffers a much less noticeable drop right this second. It still drops the same as a power build’s does.

Mbelch.9028:

I don’t actually have a horrible bias against conditions. You have a love for them though, you two, and man that’s just dandy. People like you who spread disinformation and fight just oh so hard to keep your easy builds overpowered. Well you guys are keeping guild wars from being balanced. Enjoy.

I’m a GW1 player who wishes conditions were more like that game. And to call my views invalid just shows how truly ignorant you are.

Actually we have very literally posted facts. You on the other hand made a false claim, that was easily disprove with a list of direct damage attacks that have long durations, such as ele pets, engineer turrets, meteor shower, and all kinds of mesmer attacks, the list goes on and on. No one is calling your views invalid, we are simply proving your claims as wrong. For example, the statement you make with the title alone was solidly, and logically disproven with facts.

You make a lot of false statements apparently. Such as claiming I love conditions, when actually, I am indifferent about them. Out of the 8 professions I fully leveled in WvW, only my engineer, and ranger use conditions, my warrior, guardian, thief, mesmer, elementalist, and even my necromancer all currently have full direct damage builds that I play. It is not a matter of whether or not I like conditions, It is a matter of knowing how much more versatile and capable my direct damage builds are over the condition build.

You quite literally make me tired. I don’t actually care enough to argue with you over a game in an Internet forum. If you want to argue, do it with yourself.

As I said, I knew there would be a consortium of people who love conditions and staunchly defend them. I love when two people with strong views look to simply post more than their opponents so as to overwhelm them.

I haven’t made any “claims” to disprove, bud. I don’t get downed in one hit by most things. Like I said, backstabs don’t. Evisetates don’t. Churning earth doesn’t. Killshot doesn’t usually, but if it crits on a full Acended + full stack war potentially can. Meteor shower would from a full glass ele. As would firey rush from any glass class against a wall.

Thing about many of those skills is the real investment you have to make. To do damage as a zerk like that, you die when an uplevel ranger touches you.

To do a comparable amount of damage, just over time with condis, you just have to build tanky. That’s a tad bit absurd.

I simply propose the armor system should be different.

The more condition damage you want to do, the glassier you are.

It doesn’t invalidate conditions, simply gives them the same risk and reward power builds have.

—

If you think I’ll be discussing this further, you’re wrong. You turned a funny thing that happened to me in obsidian sanctum into something frankly sad to look at. Continue on, engie and necro condi crew. You tire me out here just like you do in WvW.

Condition builds already have lower rewards than power builds do. Lower damage output and longer time to do that damage. Sorry you don’t like how it functions, but it is quite well balanced.

To you, perhaps. You aren’t more than one person. Most people I talk to agree conditions aren’t in a good place.

Mbelch.9028:

To you, perhaps. You aren’t more than one person. Most people I talk to agree conditions aren’t in a good place.

And most people i see talk about conditions dont seem to have the foggiest how they actually work. And rather just repeat what someone else said as if its actually true. So excuse me if im not going to take a democratic vote on this one…

I agree that conditions arent in a good place, but i think we both have a very diffirent understanding of what that place is right now and what it should be.

hooma.9642:

3. how i said in my post. dodging bullsrush destroys the whole burst combo. the same goes for a lot of raw dmg bursts but for this example its the easiest to show. on the other hand dodging 1 aa just negates the condiapplication of that aa, but not the condiapplication via trait or sigills or runes. if the attack isnt hitting, the traits ( some have no cooldown) and runes dont go on cooldown. as example you could fight against a necro with dhuumfire and dodge 90% of his attacks. u would still get burned.

There is absolutely no difference in dodging/blocking/immunity-avoiding direct damage and conditions.

AA deals direct damage → you dodge the damage.
AA deals condition → you dodge the condition → you dodge the damage.
Attacker deals 5-6 attacks of direct damage burst → you dodge the damage.
Attacker deals 5-6 abilities to apply conditions → you dodge the applications → you dodge the damage.

Seriously, there’s no difference. Conditions don’t magically appear on you, they’re applied by attacks. The same attacks which would apply direct damage if you don’t dodge them.

Mbelch.9028:

You quite literally make me tired. I don’t actually care enough to argue with you over a game in an Internet forum. If you want to argue, do it with yourself.

Yet you keep posting to tel me your not going to post.

Mbelch.9028:

As I said, I knew there would be a consortium of people who love conditions and staunchly defend them. I love when two people with strong views look to simply post more than their opponents so as to overwhelm them.

Opposing views? You made claims that were, false, other provided actual facts. Disproved your claims. You go on posting about how your not going to post and argue, but do so in said post.

Mbelch.9028:

I haven’t made any “claims” to disprove, bud. I don’t get downed in one hit by most things. Like I said, backstabs don’t. Evisetates don’t. Churning earth doesn’t. Killshot doesn’t usually, but if it crits on a full Acended + full stack war potentially can. Meteor shower would from a full glass ele. As would firey rush from any glass class against a wall.

Yes you did. You literally stated conditions can do something direct damage can not, by allowing you to cast skills and leave, cause a player to die 20 s later, when we posted tons of skills that disprove that. Then you went on to claim that your already disproven claim was grounds to nerf and rework conditions. You made other as well.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Solori.6025:

My mistake..I have a case of the mondays

We need some Funday Mondays, then.

Sorry Sean Plott, we need to steal them. Even if your roomie does work for ANet.

oooh man…what if monday was a national holiday for the entire year…

I can dream …

@OP You didn’t take into account a major aspect of game design. Conditions deal damage over time, giving time for you opponent to cleanse/heal. So 1 skill applied a condition and he had enough condition duration to have last till your death, not a big deal. I rarely ever see a condition go through it’s entire duration. They pretty much always get cleansed at some point. What are the odds of you going a full 20 seconds in combat without cleansing, if you say your odds are high then you should review your build and add more cleansing. While you might have enough toughness in your build to not get 1 shot, what are the odds of a real power builds downing you in a 3-4 hit combo? My zerk warrior hammer build can dish out a15k 3hit combo against a tanky build. That’s like 15k in about 3 seconds. How many condition builds can do that?

If you would have said that condition builds can spam to many conditions to fast then I would agree with you. but to just say that they are OP because you just stood there and did nothing doesn’t prove anything except that doing nothing isn’t rewarding.

Dont nerf condi damage
Buff cleanses

rock is fine, nerf scissors
~paper

we dont need more cleanses, the people are already confused by conditions…. they are fine as they are, people need to learn.

People need to realize how easy it is to reapply conditions. We need more cleanses.

Kyon.9735:

People need to realize how easy it is to reapply conditions. We need more cleanses.

No you need to learn when to cleanse conditions.
1-3 stacks of bleeds will tickle many classes and many players will clear them, then they complain that all of a sudden we burst them with 10+ bleeds and 4 other conditions, if you learn to time your cleanse much like you learn to dodge a big attack the damage you take is minimal.

People need to realize that the possibility to cleanse every condition (which more cleanses would lead to) would be the same as reducing every direct damage hit by >90%.

For Direct damage this would be OP but because conditions are “the pure evil” it’s ok.

People need to learn, that a) the amount of cleanses is enough to handle the conditions in game, if you can’t it’s your builds weak spot and you probably deserve to die. and b) there is no magic around conditions that instant kills everything.

Brando.1374:

Kyon.9735:

People need to realize how easy it is to reapply conditions. We need more cleanses.

No you need to learn when to cleanse conditions.
1-3 stacks of bleeds will tickle many classes and many players will clear them, then they complain that all of a sudden we burst them with 10+ bleeds and 4 other conditions, if you learn to time your cleanse much like you learn to dodge a big attack the damage you take is minimal.

That won’t be a problem if the only condition applied is Bleeding. I main both Elementalist and Engineer, I also play Thief, Warrior, and Mesmer both on Zerker builds and Condi builds. I won’t lie to myself, you cleanse the condis I applied and I will be able to re-apply them again before you have your cleanses on cooldown.

I apply torment and 10 stacks of bleeding on my warrior and I see you cleanse it, no problem I’ll re-apply them again in a matter of seconds. I use static shot on my Engineer in WvW, I can instantly stack Confusion, Blind, Bleeding, Burning, and Torment in 1 click of a button and I still have other skills that can apply and stack more conditions. I don’t even want to talk about Dire Perplexity Thieves.

I’m talking about the ease of application, not L2P cleansing issues. I don’t have any issues with condition damage (maybe aside from torment in impale), but the rate of application is really absurd.

When fully specced for conditions my impale tooltip says 10,531 damage if standing and 21,263 damage when moving, this cant be right, right?

Kyon.9735:

I’m talking about the ease of application, not L2P cleansing issues. I don’t have any issues with condition damage (maybe aside from torment in impale), but the rate of application is really absurd.

Conditions are just an other form of damage in GW2, they are not instant but over time and that’s all. The “ease of application” is the same thing how power builds do their damage, they hit their target.

Why do you want to be able to cleanse all condi damage, when you cant do this vs. power builds?

@Maliel: Why should it be wrong? Its not instant 20k damage, you have 12+ seconds time to cleanse it. If you cleanse it within the first seconds, it will probably only deal 1k damage. If a direct damage attack hits you you don’t have any other choice then eat it.

in order for you to deal 10k+ damage from that 1 skill you will need about 2.6k condi damage. which as a warrior not very hard to do because you guys can stack might with out much trouble.

It’s easy to say ‘cleanse’

But it’s so easy to reapply it, and not so easy to repeatdley cleanse..

phaeris.7604:

It’s easy to say ‘cleanse’

But it’s so easy to reapply it, and not so easy to repeatdley cleanse..

some builds are able to repeatedly cleanse. just like some builds are able to tank/block a lot of damage. there is no best at everything build.
I once fought a S/F ele which took at around 5 and a half minutes before one of us was downed.

repeatedly cleanse?

There is no build which can outcleanse condition application builds.

phaeris.7604:

repeatedly cleanse?

There is no build which can outcleanse condition application builds.

Necro builds can

Hah!

That’s sadly true, you’re both the disease and the cure.

phaeris.7604:

Hah!

That’s sadly true, you’re both the disease and the cure.

Warriors might be a close 2nd is spec’d for it.

Brando.1374:

phaeris.7604:

Hah!

That’s sadly true, you’re both the disease and the cure.

Warriors might be a close 2nd is spec’d for it.

Cleansing Ire Warriors actually surpass necros on the cleansing front. Necros just frequently have ways to take advantage of the conditions you put on them instead of just removing them.

The only things I’ve seen able to go toe-to-toe on cleanses is a sword/focus meditation guardian and a Shadow’s Embrace (and general stealth-spec) thief, though that last one may have been nerfed since I last went up against it.

The problem with condis, among other things, are that they’re pretty feast-or-famine. Not enough cleanses? They win. Enough cleanses? Stalemate, or they lose because they couldn’t outrun you. There’s no more cover condis/hexes or general interplay.

This was less of an issue in GW1 where conditions saw plenty of use (Burning Arrow rangers, Tainted Flesh hero bot necro, Virulence mesmer come to mind) but were still OK because condition cleansing could be outsourced to monks.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Cleansing Ire Warriors actually surpass necros on the cleansing front. Necros just frequently have ways to take advantage of the conditions you put on them instead of just removing them.

… Which baffles me, as last I played, warriors were one of the weakest vs. condi classes in the game (unless running shouts), potentially by design. Is there anything they’re bad at, now?

Furienify.5738:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Cleansing Ire Warriors actually surpass necros on the cleansing front. Necros just frequently have ways to take advantage of the conditions you put on them instead of just removing them.

… Which baffles me, as last I played, warriors were one of the weakest vs. condi classes in the game (unless running shouts), potentially by design. Is there anything they’re bad at, now?

Not really, no.

Furienify.5738:

Not enough cleanses? They win. Enough cleanses? Stalemate, or they lose because they couldn’t outrun you.

some classes beeing able o outrun others by design is a different topic…
what’s wrong having to take enough condicleanses to fight a condiclass effectively? didn’t you die in GW1 too, if you fought a difficult encounter without condition removal?

what if you didn’t have to prepare yourself for a condition build? would conditions be viable? certainly not. they wouldn’t be a threat, or else you would have to take condition removal.

point is:
if you dont take condition removal, why should you win?
if you don’t take stability, why should you win against cc heavy classes?
if you dont have scissors with you, why should your rock win over paper?

get enough paper, rock and scissors in yor build to be able to react to every encounter. or just take rock and own scissors, but always fail to the slightest sheet of paper.

pza.8024:

Furienify.5738:

Not enough cleanses? They win. Enough cleanses? Stalemate, or they lose because they couldn’t outrun you.

some classes beeing able o outrun others by design is a different topic…
what’s wrong having to take enough condicleanses to fight a condiclass effectively? didn’t you die in GW1 too, if you fought a difficult encounter without condition removal?

what if you didn’t have to prepare yourself for a condition build? would conditions be viable? certainly not. they wouldn’t be a threat, or else you would have to take condition removal.

point is:
if you dont take condition removal, why should you win?
if you don’t take stability, why should you win against cc heavy classes?
if you dont have scissors with you, why should your rock win over paper?

get enough paper, rock and scissors in yor build to be able to react to every encounter. or just take rock and own scissors, but always fail to the slightest sheet of paper.

Agree 100% to add if you try and build for rock, paper, and scissors you spread yourself thin somewhere. This isn’t a bad thing either. If you didn’t trait to help against condi’s then you would probably just grab more damage modifiers I know I would if there was no such thing as conditions. Thieves would start moving to even more damage less shadow arts certainly no need to get shadows embrace. No need for cleansing ire or dogged march, no need for Mesmer to get mender’s purity etc.

The meta would be glass and bunkers with not much being able to keep bunkers in check except maybe the burstiest of thieves. People would to complaining about bunkers. Especially in WvW the 1vX champs would have less 1vX’s wins eventually everyone would migrate to bunker because it’s safer then going glass.

Mostly speculation on my part but I don’t see it going any other way if conditions where needed to become an afterthought.

Condition builds damage significantly slower than power builds. Condition builds by definition do their damage over time, and every profession has at least a few different ways to remove them.

Are some condi skills slightly too strong in havok groups and spvp? perhaps.

Are they OP? not at all

Mbelch.9028:

To you, perhaps. You aren’t more than one person. Most people I talk to agree conditions aren’t in a good place.

seems the majority of these people would disagree with you.

Furienify.5738:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Cleansing Ire Warriors actually surpass necros on the cleansing front. Necros just frequently have ways to take advantage of the conditions you put on them instead of just removing them.

… Which baffles me, as last I played, warriors were one of the weakest vs. condi classes in the game (unless running shouts), potentially by design. Is there anything they’re bad at, now?

They are horrible at sucking. How pathetic is it, right?

crunchyraisin.6054:

Condition builds damage significantly slower than power builds. Condition builds by definition do their damage over time, and every profession has at least a few different ways to remove them.

Are some condi skills slightly too strong in havok groups and spvp? perhaps.

Are they OP? not at all

You are looking at it the wrong way though. Will a full dire necro deal damage slower than a full zerk necro? Probably. A PVT necro on the other hand? No chance in hell.

EFWinters.5421:

crunchyraisin.6054:

Condition builds damage significantly slower than power builds. Condition builds by definition do their damage over time, and every profession has at least a few different ways to remove them.

Are some condi skills slightly too strong in havok groups and spvp? perhaps.

Are they OP? not at all

You are looking at it the wrong way though. Will a full dire necro deal damage slower than a full zerk necro? Probably. A PVT necro on the other hand? No chance in hell.

Im pretty sure a ptv necro can still out dps a full dire necro.

Brando.1374:

EFWinters.5421:

crunchyraisin.6054:

Condition builds damage significantly slower than power builds. Condition builds by definition do their damage over time, and every profession has at least a few different ways to remove them.

Are some condi skills slightly too strong in havok groups and spvp? perhaps.

Are they OP? not at all

You are looking at it the wrong way though. Will a full dire necro deal damage slower than a full zerk necro? Probably. A PVT necro on the other hand? No chance in hell.

Im pretty sure a ptv necro can still out dps a full dire necro.

with dhumfire and terror? I highly doubt it.

warriorjrd.8695:

Brando.1374:

EFWinters.5421:

crunchyraisin.6054:

Condition builds damage significantly slower than power builds. Condition builds by definition do their damage over time, and every profession has at least a few different ways to remove them.

Are some condi skills slightly too strong in havok groups and spvp? perhaps.

Are they OP? not at all

You are looking at it the wrong way though. Will a full dire necro deal damage slower than a full zerk necro? Probably. A PVT necro on the other hand? No chance in hell.

Im pretty sure a ptv necro can still out dps a full dire necro.

with dhumfire and terror? I highly doubt it.

ok, ill make record another dps test.
I have already made a few (zerkers and valk amlulets)

Im not really sure where I can test my dps in wvw/pve and besides I only have a full dire set and no zerker/ptv gear. I only have a mix of valk/knights gear which is why I do most of my recorded tests in pvp area.

Brando.1374:

warriorjrd.8695:

Brando.1374:

EFWinters.5421:

crunchyraisin.6054:

Condition builds damage significantly slower than power builds. Condition builds by definition do their damage over time, and every profession has at least a few different ways to remove them.

Are some condi skills slightly too strong in havok groups and spvp? perhaps.

Are they OP? not at all

You are looking at it the wrong way though. Will a full dire necro deal damage slower than a full zerk necro? Probably. A PVT necro on the other hand? No chance in hell.

Im pretty sure a ptv necro can still out dps a full dire necro.

with dhumfire and terror? I highly doubt it.

ok, ill make record another dps test.
I have already made a few (zerkers and valk amlulets)

Im not really sure where I can test my dps in wvw/pve and besides I only have a full dire set and no zerker/ptv gear. I only have a mix of valk/knights gear which is why I do most of my recorded tests in pvp area.

find a vet or elite in cursed shore or the 80 part of frostgorge or a dungeon.. dungeon prolly best, you can exit and re-enter and get a respawn

rares are pretty cheap.. if only i could log in and send you 10g for a couple rare sets :/ #brickedcomputer

warriorjrd.8695:

Brando.1374:

EFWinters.5421:

crunchyraisin.6054:

Condition builds damage significantly slower than power builds. Condition builds by definition do their damage over time, and every profession has at least a few different ways to remove them.

Are some condi skills slightly too strong in havok groups and spvp? perhaps.

Are they OP? not at all

You are looking at it the wrong way though. Will a full dire necro deal damage slower than a full zerk necro? Probably. A PVT necro on the other hand? No chance in hell.

Im pretty sure a ptv necro can still out dps a full dire necro.

with dhumfire and terror? I highly doubt it.

It’s possible but we know realistically that a PVT necro is not going to run the same setup as a terrormancer condi necro. PVT would probably be 30/10/0/0/30 and the Condi is 30/20/X/X/X last 20 can go anywhere. If the PVT takes deathly perception then he probably can very easily out dps the condition necro because that is what PVT build would probably take.

I know people say condi builds only need 1 offensive stat but Power builds many of them slack precision because of traits.

If you know your necro’s a PVT build wiill have as much power as a full zerk build 30 critical damage with soul reaping investment and deathly perception going into DS with that would be 59% crit chance with only 10 point investment into precision while in DS.

insanemaniac.2456:

Brando.1374:

warriorjrd.8695:

Brando.1374:

EFWinters.5421:

crunchyraisin.6054:

Condition builds damage significantly slower than power builds. Condition builds by definition do their damage over time, and every profession has at least a few different ways to remove them.

Are some condi skills slightly too strong in havok groups and spvp? perhaps.

Are they OP? not at all

You are looking at it the wrong way though. Will a full dire necro deal damage slower than a full zerk necro? Probably. A PVT necro on the other hand? No chance in hell.

Im pretty sure a ptv necro can still out dps a full dire necro.

with dhumfire and terror? I highly doubt it.

ok, ill make record another dps test.
I have already made a few (zerkers and valk amlulets)

Im not really sure where I can test my dps in wvw/pve and besides I only have a full dire set and no zerker/ptv gear. I only have a mix of valk/knights gear which is why I do most of my recorded tests in pvp area.

find a vet or elite in cursed shore or the 80 part of frostgorge or a dungeon.. dungeon prolly best, you can exit and re-enter and get a respawn

rares are pretty cheap.. if only i could log in and send you 10g for a couple rare sets :/ #brickedcomputer

when I record my tests later tonight these are the 2 builds I have access to in pve/wvw
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vQUQNArYWjc0Ueb3NG3wejCZqw3A9YXwFQMSxxEMUFKHA-zUCB4igoOBikGk8IQZSFRjtGsIasKZC1qbY6YJKAwBABdLFAErBA-w (Condi bleed stacking and terror/dumbfire)

and my similar tanky power build http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vQAQNBmQDbkjmWarpxxG2bTAQP2FXnjZQ8x0HKH-z0CBofQYMBmkGiAJwpqKrpPCilQDRrgKs6FYqTER1uDFRrmUAwMsC-w

ill try to get the vids out tonight. let me know is this type of builds are going to be ok to finally end the arguments of Condi is OP compared to power builds.

Kak your second link is the same as your first

oZii.2864:

Kak your second link is the same as your first

oh lol
Fixed it

Brando.1374:

insanemaniac.2456:

Brando.1374:

warriorjrd.8695:

Brando.1374:

EFWinters.5421:

crunchyraisin.6054:

Condition builds damage significantly slower than power builds. Condition builds by definition do their damage over time, and every profession has at least a few different ways to remove them.

Are some condi skills slightly too strong in havok groups and spvp? perhaps.

Are they OP? not at all

You are looking at it the wrong way though. Will a full dire necro deal damage slower than a full zerk necro? Probably. A PVT necro on the other hand? No chance in hell.

Im pretty sure a ptv necro can still out dps a full dire necro.

with dhumfire and terror? I highly doubt it.

ok, ill make record another dps test.
I have already made a few (zerkers and valk amlulets)

Im not really sure where I can test my dps in wvw/pve and besides I only have a full dire set and no zerker/ptv gear. I only have a mix of valk/knights gear which is why I do most of my recorded tests in pvp area.

find a vet or elite in cursed shore or the 80 part of frostgorge or a dungeon.. dungeon prolly best, you can exit and re-enter and get a respawn

rares are pretty cheap.. if only i could log in and send you 10g for a couple rare sets :/ #brickedcomputer

when I record my tests later tonight these are the 2 builds I have access to in pve/wvw
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vQUQNArYWjc0Ueb3NG3wejCZqw3A9YXwFQMSxxEMUFKHA-zUCB4igoOBikGk8IQZSFRjtGsIasKZC1qbY6YJKAwBABdLFAErBA-w (Condi bleed stacking and terror/dumbfire)

and my similar tanky power build http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vQUQNArYWjc0Ueb3NG3wejCZqw3A9YXwFQMSxxEMUFKHA-zUCB4igoOBikGk8IQZSFRjtGsIasKZC1qbY6YJKAwBABdLFAErBA-w

ill try to get the vids out tonight. let me know is this type of builds are going to be ok to finally end the arguments of Condi is OP compared to power builds.

im really wondering how much the combined effects of huge armor ratings in wvw + pizza + psyching out / cleansing too early are skewing our perception. quite frankly ive never felt like a burden going condi build in fractals, but i never ran with a bunch of omgsuperpro zerkers… just friends who often had zerk gear. (i like power more than condi engi).

insanemaniac.2456:

Brando.1374:

insanemaniac.2456:

Brando.1374:

warriorjrd.8695:

Brando.1374:

EFWinters.5421:

crunchyraisin.6054:

Condition builds damage significantly slower than power builds. Condition builds by definition do their damage over time, and every profession has at least a few different ways to remove them.

Are some condi skills slightly too strong in havok groups and spvp? perhaps.

Are they OP? not at all

You are looking at it the wrong way though. Will a full dire necro deal damage slower than a full zerk necro? Probably. A PVT necro on the other hand? No chance in hell.

Im pretty sure a ptv necro can still out dps a full dire necro.

with dhumfire and terror? I highly doubt it.

ok, ill make record another dps test.
I have already made a few (zerkers and valk amlulets)

Im not really sure where I can test my dps in wvw/pve and besides I only have a full dire set and no zerker/ptv gear. I only have a mix of valk/knights gear which is why I do most of my recorded tests in pvp area.

find a vet or elite in cursed shore or the 80 part of frostgorge or a dungeon.. dungeon prolly best, you can exit and re-enter and get a respawn

rares are pretty cheap.. if only i could log in and send you 10g for a couple rare sets :/ #brickedcomputer

when I record my tests later tonight these are the 2 builds I have access to in pve/wvw
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vQUQNArYWjc0Ueb3NG3wejCZqw3A9YXwFQMSxxEMUFKHA-zUCB4igoOBikGk8IQZSFRjtGsIasKZC1qbY6YJKAwBABdLFAErBA-w (Condi bleed stacking and terror/dumbfire)

and my similar tanky power build http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vQUQNArYWjc0Ueb3NG3wejCZqw3A9YXwFQMSxxEMUFKHA-zUCB4igoOBikGk8IQZSFRjtGsIasKZC1qbY6YJKAwBABdLFAErBA-w

ill try to get the vids out tonight. let me know is this type of builds are going to be ok to finally end the arguments of Condi is OP compared to power builds.

im really wondering how much the combined effects of huge armor ratings in wvw + pizza + psyching out / cleansing too early are skewing our perception. quite frankly ive never felt like a burden going condi build in fractals, but i never ran with a bunch of omgsuperpro zerkers... just friends who often had zerk gear. (i like power more than condi engi).

Condi builds in pve just dont have the dps compared to a zerk build or if my test go as I suspect even a non zerk power build.

in wvw most of the complaints are from roamers/small group (1-10) where conditions might be an issue if you dont have anything to counter them.

in a gvg setting you can use condition classes but you will need 3 (necro’s) to be able to break the aoe removal and have your bleeds/psn corrupted boons do its damage. while 1 power well necro can cause a similar affect on the group but the damage they do is front loaded burst you can say.

phaeris.7604:

It’s easy to say ‘cleanse’

But it’s so easy to reapply it, and not so easy to repeatdley cleanse..

It’s easy to cry for more cleanses, but cleanse is a defensive mechanic, and you know what? conditions are meant to kill defensive builds.

Just burst the condi build down and dont play a tank, thats how rock/paper/scissors works.

You can’t want a mechanic nerfed based on intentionally stupid counter-play. Nobody will just stand still and do nothing for 20s, letting a condition tick away. Actually, more people will stand still and eat an entire 100b, but power shouldn’t be nerfed.

I like to think of some of these abilities as skill checks. If you’re gonna stand there and not cleanse conditions that are melting you or not stun break when someone’s about to unload a channeled skill in your face region….maybe L2P. Intelligent combat is a good thing, so don’t dumb it down.

Brando.1374:

Condi builds in pve just dont have the dps compared to a zerk build or if my test go as I suspect even a non zerk power build.

in wvw most of the complaints are from roamers/small group (1-10) where conditions might be an issue if you dont have anything to counter them.

in a gvg setting you can use condition classes but you will need 3 (necro’s) to be able to break the aoe removal and have your bleeds/psn corrupted boons do its damage. while 1 power well necro can cause a similar affect on the group but the damage they do is front loaded burst you can say.

hmm.. lemme get my thoughts in order…

i have a strong feeling the dps issues are because crit damage is wayyyy over budget, but idk how to reconcile that with anet thinking crit damage is in an ok place in spvp and whats different about condi damage there that makes it feel too threatening… could be a distinct lack of bonus vitality? i mean guard stacks sort of offset food in wvw, but pizza fighting against not-lemongrass is still just ridiculous. and of course in pve we just dont get condi bursted apart from like 2 fights where theres a huge direct component and an expected downing anyways.

i run a similar build to your power necro on engi, ~50% crit damage, ~40% crit rate, 1800+ toughness, and i know for a fact its loads stronger than straight ptv. i feel like the survivability is similar to ptv, but it does like 50% more dps from the crit investments. so i mean… idk if youll really get anywhere testing that build. builds like that are whats strong about power, specially in pvp. you can get like ~75% of a zerkers dps while maintaining 100% of the defense vs power and relying on high base HP vs condi. so if a condi build can cap out at like 66% of zerker dps (ish… going off your 6 sec / 9 sec golem tests)… well a knight/cav build is still gonna win out, but would a soldier? since soldier doesnt have much in crit and a knight/cav build does like 50% more dps… that puts soldier at like ~50% of a zerkers dps… which is lower than a condi build! … but possibly higher than straight dire which uses no crit procs at all.

and therein lies the problem:

• we havent had people willing to scientifically test it
• getting the gear is a significant gold drop, cant justify for gear you wouldnt otherwise use
• pvp stat combos are limited
• the people with lots of game knowledge want to maximise efficiency
  1. knight/cav for defensive pvp spec
  2. ptv/sent only in large groups
  3. unreliable crit procs = get enough crit rate to have them on cd ~75% of the time and throw the rest of the stat budget at survivability

however, what we can see from the stat window is that soldier vs dire has merely exchanged power for condi damage and we want a comparison between the 2 to really matter when they really arent comparable. we have to compare knight/cav to dire/rabid. those are the 2 optimal specs. and thats where we start arguing. and i dont think well stop. cuz the next person to say “o condi wins obv” will look at your test and see you used an optimal spec instead of a directly comparable spec to do your dps test.

so idk where to think from here. was your crit rate w/ valk amulet really 16%? no fury? any thoughts on what would happen if your wells missed/ran out without the mob dying?

i wonder how much crit damage were gonna lose when ferocity hits. i like my build got a bad feeling trinkets are pretty heavily over budget for crit damage.