Guild Wars 2

Coglin, while you are correct that Dire < Soldier’s for DPS, he does have a point that you never actually link the numerical evidence you are using. I ask that you do so.

I made some necro comparisons
http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3859738 spvp rabid condi needed I think 7+ skills

http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3848362 spvp valk power needed 3 utilities and just AA

reasoning behind using valk is due to the similar stats to rabid

Okay OP here, let’s clear some things out.

When i first wrote the first post i was kinda hot headed so in my defense i’ll go back and try to make my points clear now that things have calmed down in my mind.

Been reading all the post you guys made and while some make absolutly fair points others are just as stubborn as i can be sometimes.

Regarding the test between Dire vs Soldier, first of all i find it irrelevant as the way damage is applicated is totally different in both playstyles, it seems (or maybe i just looked wrong) that in the test only auto attack damage are taken as modifiers and that just makes the test pointless as i’d say most condition bring the damage from other skills rather than the autoattack (don’t take this as an absolute truth) while power builds have their dps almost matched with just pure autoattacks.

Besides that if the test has been made on a static target there’s obvious reasons the power build will always come on top, on a real 1v1 situation melee attacks are way easier to predict and dodge thus avoiding a big part of the damage while condition appliers dont have that much “burst 10k” potential but even if you dodge one condition the rate in which they can be re-applicated is low.

On the build discussion, ofc some builds are far better with other cond stats other than dire. But the whole point is that the sacriface you’ve to make to become competitive in a condition oriented build it’s far lesser that what you’ve to do with a Power build (unless you are a warrior).

To Sum this up:

I have NO PROBLEM with condition damage, i think it’s fine the way it is, the real problem is that there’s very little counter-play to the rate conditions can be applied in the current meta (besides some anti condi builds like nightmare warrior or SA D/P thief). With the build i’ve been running this days (S/D) i have Shadow step, Sword #2, and Pain response, that is somehow medium to decent condition removal and with all that i can’t even remove a signet of spite from a necro. Gw2 is all about build diversity (or that’s what they try) and i don’t think the lack of condition removal and the overall rate inc which conditions can be applied is precisely helping that, but again that’s just my opinion.

(this is all about 1v1 1vx and small scale fights)

Brando.1374:

I made some necro comparisons
http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3859738 spvp rabid condi needed I think 7+ skills

http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3848362 spvp valk power needed 3 utilities and just AA

reasoning behind using valk is due to the similar stats to rabid

As I said in my PMs to him since those were the only ones I could find, good luck finding a guy to stand in your wells as you auto attack. Also a Terrormancer build should be fear chaining for a guaranteed kill on anyone, you cannot counter a good Spectral Wall Terrormancer.

Sons.5493:

Okay OP here, let’s clear some things out.

When i first wrote the first post i was kinda hot headed so in my defense i’ll go back and try to make my points clear now that things have calmed down in my mind.

Been reading all the post you guys made and while some make absolutly fair points others are just as stubborn as i can be sometimes.

Regarding the test between Dire vs Soldier, first of all i find it irrelevant as the way damage is applicated is totally different in both playstyles, it seems (or maybe i just looked wrong) that in the test only auto attack damage are taken as modifiers and that just makes the test pointless as i’d say most condition bring the damage from other skills rather than the autoattack (don’t take this as an absolute truth) while power builds have their dps almost matched with just pure autoattacks.

Besides that if the test has been made on a static target there’s obvious reasons the power build will always come on top, on a real 1v1 situation melee attacks are way easier to predict and dodge thus avoiding a big part of the damage while condition appliers dont have that much “burst 10k” potential but even if you dodge one condition the rate in which they can be re-applicated is low.

On the build discussion, ofc some builds are far better with other cond stats other than dire. But the whole point is that the sacriface you’ve to make to become competitive in a condition oriented build it’s far lesser that what you’ve to do with a Power build (unless you are a warrior).

To Sum this up:

I have NO PROBLEM with condition damage, i think it’s fine the way it is, the real problem is that there’s very little counter-play to the rate conditions can be applied in the current meta (besides some anti condi builds like nightmare warrior or SA D/P thief). With the build i’ve been running this days (S/D) i have Shadow step, Sword #2, and Pain response, that is somehow medium to decent condition removal and with all that i can’t even remove a signet of spite from a necro. Gw2 is all about build diversity (or that’s what they try) and i don’t think the lack of condition removal and the overall rate inc which conditions can be applied is precisely helping that, but again that’s just my opinion.

(this is all about 1v1 1vx and small scale fights)

S/D thief should be able to evade almost all major attacks from a necro at least.
most of our skills that apply 3stacks or multiple conditions are on a 3/4s cast time which is enough time for the S/D thieves I have faced to get out of the way and just smash my face in. (S/D is the only class/spec than can reliably beat me lol)

Brando.1374:

Sons.5493:

Okay OP here, let’s clear some things out.

When i first wrote the first post i was kinda hot headed so in my defense i’ll go back and try to make my points clear now that things have calmed down in my mind.

Been reading all the post you guys made and while some make absolutly fair points others are just as stubborn as i can be sometimes.

Regarding the test between Dire vs Soldier, first of all i find it irrelevant as the way damage is applicated is totally different in both playstyles, it seems (or maybe i just looked wrong) that in the test only auto attack damage are taken as modifiers and that just makes the test pointless as i’d say most condition bring the damage from other skills rather than the autoattack (don’t take this as an absolute truth) while power builds have their dps almost matched with just pure autoattacks.

Besides that if the test has been made on a static target there’s obvious reasons the power build will always come on top, on a real 1v1 situation melee attacks are way easier to predict and dodge thus avoiding a big part of the damage while condition appliers dont have that much “burst 10k” potential but even if you dodge one condition the rate in which they can be re-applicated is low.

On the build discussion, ofc some builds are far better with other cond stats other than dire. But the whole point is that the sacriface you’ve to make to become competitive in a condition oriented build it’s far lesser that what you’ve to do with a Power build (unless you are a warrior).

To Sum this up:

I have NO PROBLEM with condition damage, i think it’s fine the way it is, the real problem is that there’s very little counter-play to the rate conditions can be applied in the current meta (besides some anti condi builds like nightmare warrior or SA D/P thief). With the build i’ve been running this days (S/D) i have Shadow step, Sword #2, and Pain response, that is somehow medium to decent condition removal and with all that i can’t even remove a signet of spite from a necro. Gw2 is all about build diversity (or that’s what they try) and i don’t think the lack of condition removal and the overall rate inc which conditions can be applied is precisely helping that, but again that’s just my opinion.

(this is all about 1v1 1vx and small scale fights)

S/D thief should be able to evade almost all major attacks from a necro at least.
most of our skills that apply 3stacks or multiple conditions are on a 3/4s cast time which is enough time for the S/D thieves I have faced to get out of the way and just smash my face in. (S/D is the only class/spec than can reliably beat me lol)

Necromancer has too little animations to reliably dodge with skill, if a Thief evades it was luck or prediction.

glaphen.5230:

Brando.1374:

I made some necro comparisons
http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3859738 spvp rabid condi needed I think 7+ skills

http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3848362 spvp valk power needed 3 utilities and just AA

reasoning behind using valk is due to the similar stats to rabid

As I said in my PMs to him since those were the only ones I could find, good luck finding a guy to stand in your wells as you auto attack. Also a Terrormancer build should be fear chaining for a guaranteed kill on anyone, you cannot counter a good Spectral Wall Terrormancer.

it took the condi build 7+ key strokes in order to come close to the dps of a well timed power rotation. My point of those vids was to show that power is in face stronger damage. if we had 5 necro do this we would destroy a whole team on a point. or make them get out of the way.

Also conditions are capped in all game modes. once you reach 25 stacks of bleeds thats it.
while with power you can get hit back to back with 10k+ attacks with no damage cap.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Coglin, while you are correct that Dire < Soldier’s for DPS, he does have a point that you never actually link the numerical evidence you are using. I ask that you do so.

Tim posted evidence of this on the first page.

There is also a search function on this forum.

It’s not a matter of it not being there..
It’s a matter of the OP not wanting to find it.

glaphen.5230:

Brando.1374:

Sons.5493:

Okay OP here, let’s clear some things out.

When i first wrote the first post i was kinda hot headed so in my defense i’ll go back and try to make my points clear now that things have calmed down in my mind.

Been reading all the post you guys made and while some make absolutly fair points others are just as stubborn as i can be sometimes.

Regarding the test between Dire vs Soldier, first of all i find it irrelevant as the way damage is applicated is totally different in both playstyles, it seems (or maybe i just looked wrong) that in the test only auto attack damage are taken as modifiers and that just makes the test pointless as i’d say most condition bring the damage from other skills rather than the autoattack (don’t take this as an absolute truth) while power builds have their dps almost matched with just pure autoattacks.

Besides that if the test has been made on a static target there’s obvious reasons the power build will always come on top, on a real 1v1 situation melee attacks are way easier to predict and dodge thus avoiding a big part of the damage while condition appliers dont have that much “burst 10k” potential but even if you dodge one condition the rate in which they can be re-applicated is low.

On the build discussion, ofc some builds are far better with other cond stats other than dire. But the whole point is that the sacriface you’ve to make to become competitive in a condition oriented build it’s far lesser that what you’ve to do with a Power build (unless you are a warrior).

To Sum this up:

I have NO PROBLEM with condition damage, i think it’s fine the way it is, the real problem is that there’s very little counter-play to the rate conditions can be applied in the current meta (besides some anti condi builds like nightmare warrior or SA D/P thief). With the build i’ve been running this days (S/D) i have Shadow step, Sword #2, and Pain response, that is somehow medium to decent condition removal and with all that i can’t even remove a signet of spite from a necro. Gw2 is all about build diversity (or that’s what they try) and i don’t think the lack of condition removal and the overall rate inc which conditions can be applied is precisely helping that, but again that’s just my opinion.

(this is all about 1v1 1vx and small scale fights)

S/D thief should be able to evade almost all major attacks from a necro at least.
most of our skills that apply 3stacks or multiple conditions are on a 3/4s cast time which is enough time for the S/D thieves I have faced to get out of the way and just smash my face in. (S/D is the only class/spec than can reliably beat me lol)

Necromancer has too little animations to reliably dodge with skill, if a Thief evades it was luck or prediction.

im not saying I missed all attacks but it was enough to negate my “condi Burst”

Brando.1374:

Of all the condition specs out there i’d say necro is the one i have the easiest time killing (mostly thanks to the stolen skill) and while it’s true that some attacks can be dodged, some of them have such a poor animation that are so hard to telegraph and dodge. The ones i have the hardest problem atm are engineers.

AOE conditions need a nerf. Single target conditions could use a buff.

The same applies to direct damage.

Solori.6025:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Coglin, while you are correct that Dire < Soldier’s for DPS, he does have a point that you never actually link the numerical evidence you are using. I ask that you do so.

Tim posted evidence of this on the first page.

There is also a search function on this forum.

It’s not a matter of it not being there..
It’s a matter of the OP not wanting to find it.

Oh belive me, i read that test very carefully, and I already said that those numbers are not applicable to a real 1v1 situation as they were made against a static target. Please read the post i just made and stop the circlejerking.

style.6173:

AOE conditions need a nerf. Single target conditions could use a buff.

The same applies to direct damage.

from a necro pov
No. personal aoe removal needs a buff and aoe removal needs a nerf.

Brando.1374:

glaphen.5230:

Brando.1374:

I made some necro comparisons
http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3859738 spvp rabid condi needed I think 7+ skills

http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3848362 spvp valk power needed 3 utilities and just AA

reasoning behind using valk is due to the similar stats to rabid

As I said in my PMs to him since those were the only ones I could find, good luck finding a guy to stand in your wells as you auto attack. Also a Terrormancer build should be fear chaining for a guaranteed kill on anyone, you cannot counter a good Spectral Wall Terrormancer.

it took the condi build 7+ key strokes in order to come close to the dps of a well timed power rotation. My point of those vids was to show that power is in face stronger damage. if we had 5 necro do this we would destroy a whole team on a point. or make them get out of the way.

Also conditions are capped in all game modes. once you reach 25 stacks of bleeds thats it.
while with power you can get hit back to back with 10k+ attacks with no damage cap.

Well timed is a good laugh at E,M5,M4,F1,F1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1.
But power attacks tend to have clear animations, melee range application, cooldowns. Why would I use zerker Axe Warrior to Eviscerate for an easily dodged 10k when I can throw an Impale instantly for 10k damage if they remove immobilize, switch to longbow and Pin Down them into a Combustive Shot while dancing. What they used all their condition removal? Do it again before its off cooldown. Also did I mention my sweet 30k hp with 3k armor?

engi necro conditions are like hambows

one is ok, when theres 2 in a group fight, a few SB(condition clean) wont be enough for all those CC’s(condition spamming)

all you can do is watch conditions tick.

glaphen.5230:

Brando.1374:

glaphen.5230:

Brando.1374:

I made some necro comparisons
http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3859738 spvp rabid condi needed I think 7+ skills

http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3848362 spvp valk power needed 3 utilities and just AA

reasoning behind using valk is due to the similar stats to rabid

As I said in my PMs to him since those were the only ones I could find, good luck finding a guy to stand in your wells as you auto attack. Also a Terrormancer build should be fear chaining for a guaranteed kill on anyone, you cannot counter a good Spectral Wall Terrormancer.

it took the condi build 7+ key strokes in order to come close to the dps of a well timed power rotation. My point of those vids was to show that power is in face stronger damage. if we had 5 necro do this we would destroy a whole team on a point. or make them get out of the way.

Also conditions are capped in all game modes. once you reach 25 stacks of bleeds thats it.
while with power you can get hit back to back with 10k+ attacks with no damage cap.

Well timed is a good laugh at E,M5,M4,F1,F1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1.
But power attacks tend to have clear animations, melee range application, cooldowns. Why would I use zerker Axe Warrior to Eviscerate for an easily dodged 10k when I can throw an Impale instantly for 10k damage if they remove immobilize, switch to longbow and Pin Down them into a Combustive Shot while dancing. What they used all their condition removal? Do it again before its off cooldown. Also did I mention my sweet 30k hp with 3k armor?

your talking about a different class
warriors have their own issues lol but a good warr will stun they target before wasting a eviscerate.

Brando.1374:

glaphen.5230:

Brando.1374:

glaphen.5230:

Brando.1374:

I made some necro comparisons
http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3859738 spvp rabid condi needed I think 7+ skills

http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3848362 spvp valk power needed 3 utilities and just AA

reasoning behind using valk is due to the similar stats to rabid

As I said in my PMs to him since those were the only ones I could find, good luck finding a guy to stand in your wells as you auto attack. Also a Terrormancer build should be fear chaining for a guaranteed kill on anyone, you cannot counter a good Spectral Wall Terrormancer.

it took the condi build 7+ key strokes in order to come close to the dps of a well timed power rotation. My point of those vids was to show that power is in face stronger damage. if we had 5 necro do this we would destroy a whole team on a point. or make them get out of the way.

Also conditions are capped in all game modes. once you reach 25 stacks of bleeds thats it.
while with power you can get hit back to back with 10k+ attacks with no damage cap.

Well timed is a good laugh at E,M5,M4,F1,F1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1.
But power attacks tend to have clear animations, melee range application, cooldowns. Why would I use zerker Axe Warrior to Eviscerate for an easily dodged 10k when I can throw an Impale instantly for 10k damage if they remove immobilize, switch to longbow and Pin Down them into a Combustive Shot while dancing. What they used all their condition removal? Do it again before its off cooldown. Also did I mention my sweet 30k hp with 3k armor?

your talking about a different class
warriors have their own issues lol but a good warr will stun they target before wasting a eviscerate.

It’s the same with Necromancer too. Lich Forms 3k zerker on bunker auto attacks is an automatic team fight win generally but they aren’t that good for the next 150 seconds if focused at all. Necromancer can easily chain fear for 10+ seconds through Spectral Wall abuse for 11k damage with Terror alone. That downed target is now being ressed as you spread the conditions on all the revivers for another team fight win on a 45 second cooldown at most, even if the guy is ressed, unless a Guardian spins on a light field or uses “Save Yourselves!”. Roaming in WvW wise too Terror is far stronger since you can take traits like Reaper’s Protection since you don’t need the 50% fear duration for 100% condition duration in WvW.

glaphen.5230:

Brando.1374:

glaphen.5230:

Brando.1374:

glaphen.5230:

Brando.1374:

I made some necro comparisons
http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3859738 spvp rabid condi needed I think 7+ skills

http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3848362 spvp valk power needed 3 utilities and just AA

reasoning behind using valk is due to the similar stats to rabid

As I said in my PMs to him since those were the only ones I could find, good luck finding a guy to stand in your wells as you auto attack. Also a Terrormancer build should be fear chaining for a guaranteed kill on anyone, you cannot counter a good Spectral Wall Terrormancer.

it took the condi build 7+ key strokes in order to come close to the dps of a well timed power rotation. My point of those vids was to show that power is in face stronger damage. if we had 5 necro do this we would destroy a whole team on a point. or make them get out of the way.

Also conditions are capped in all game modes. once you reach 25 stacks of bleeds thats it.
while with power you can get hit back to back with 10k+ attacks with no damage cap.

Well timed is a good laugh at E,M5,M4,F1,F1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1.
But power attacks tend to have clear animations, melee range application, cooldowns. Why would I use zerker Axe Warrior to Eviscerate for an easily dodged 10k when I can throw an Impale instantly for 10k damage if they remove immobilize, switch to longbow and Pin Down them into a Combustive Shot while dancing. What they used all their condition removal? Do it again before its off cooldown. Also did I mention my sweet 30k hp with 3k armor?

your talking about a different class
warriors have their own issues lol but a good warr will stun they target before wasting a eviscerate.

It’s the same with Necromancer too. Lich Forms 3k zerker on bunker auto attacks is an automatic team fight win generally but they aren’t that good for the next 150 seconds if focused at all. Necromancer can easily chain fear for 10+ seconds through Spectral Wall abuse for 11k damage with Terror alone. That downed target is now being ressed as you spread the conditions on all the revivers for another team fight win on a 45 second cooldown at most, even if the guy is ressed, unless a Guardian spins on a light field or uses “Save Yourselves!”. Roaming in WvW wise too Terror is far stronger since you can take traits like Reaper’s Protection since you don’t need the 50% fear duration for 100% condition duration in WvW.

stability?
stun breaks?
aoe condi removal from team mates?
dodge?

Brando.1374:

glaphen.5230:

Brando.1374:

glaphen.5230:

Brando.1374:

glaphen.5230:

Brando.1374:

I made some necro comparisons
http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3859738 spvp rabid condi needed I think 7+ skills

http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3848362 spvp valk power needed 3 utilities and just AA

reasoning behind using valk is due to the similar stats to rabid

As I said in my PMs to him since those were the only ones I could find, good luck finding a guy to stand in your wells as you auto attack. Also a Terrormancer build should be fear chaining for a guaranteed kill on anyone, you cannot counter a good Spectral Wall Terrormancer.

it took the condi build 7+ key strokes in order to come close to the dps of a well timed power rotation. My point of those vids was to show that power is in face stronger damage. if we had 5 necro do this we would destroy a whole team on a point. or make them get out of the way.

Also conditions are capped in all game modes. once you reach 25 stacks of bleeds thats it.
while with power you can get hit back to back with 10k+ attacks with no damage cap.

Well timed is a good laugh at E,M5,M4,F1,F1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1.
But power attacks tend to have clear animations, melee range application, cooldowns. Why would I use zerker Axe Warrior to Eviscerate for an easily dodged 10k when I can throw an Impale instantly for 10k damage if they remove immobilize, switch to longbow and Pin Down them into a Combustive Shot while dancing. What they used all their condition removal? Do it again before its off cooldown. Also did I mention my sweet 30k hp with 3k armor?

your talking about a different class
warriors have their own issues lol but a good warr will stun they target before wasting a eviscerate.

It’s the same with Necromancer too. Lich Forms 3k zerker on bunker auto attacks is an automatic team fight win generally but they aren’t that good for the next 150 seconds if focused at all. Necromancer can easily chain fear for 10+ seconds through Spectral Wall abuse for 11k damage with Terror alone. That downed target is now being ressed as you spread the conditions on all the revivers for another team fight win on a 45 second cooldown at most, even if the guy is ressed, unless a Guardian spins on a light field or uses “Save Yourselves!”. Roaming in WvW wise too Terror is far stronger since you can take traits like Reaper’s Protection since you don’t need the 50% fear duration for 100% condition duration in WvW.

stability?
stun breaks?
aoe condi removal from team mates?
dodge?

Corrupt Boon, Spinal Shivers, Chill of Death

But then where are your condition removals if you take the more than 2 stun breaks needed?

As I mentioned Guardian spinning on a light field or “Save Yourselves!” which I rarely see now.

What animation?

glaphen.5230:

Brando.1374:

glaphen.5230:

Brando.1374:

glaphen.5230:

Brando.1374:

glaphen.5230:

Brando.1374:

I made some necro comparisons
http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3859738 spvp rabid condi needed I think 7+ skills

http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3848362 spvp valk power needed 3 utilities and just AA

reasoning behind using valk is due to the similar stats to rabid

As I said in my PMs to him since those were the only ones I could find, good luck finding a guy to stand in your wells as you auto attack. Also a Terrormancer build should be fear chaining for a guaranteed kill on anyone, you cannot counter a good Spectral Wall Terrormancer.

it took the condi build 7+ key strokes in order to come close to the dps of a well timed power rotation. My point of those vids was to show that power is in face stronger damage. if we had 5 necro do this we would destroy a whole team on a point. or make them get out of the way.

Also conditions are capped in all game modes. once you reach 25 stacks of bleeds thats it.
while with power you can get hit back to back with 10k+ attacks with no damage cap.

Well timed is a good laugh at E,M5,M4,F1,F1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1.
But power attacks tend to have clear animations, melee range application, cooldowns. Why would I use zerker Axe Warrior to Eviscerate for an easily dodged 10k when I can throw an Impale instantly for 10k damage if they remove immobilize, switch to longbow and Pin Down them into a Combustive Shot while dancing. What they used all their condition removal? Do it again before its off cooldown. Also did I mention my sweet 30k hp with 3k armor?

your talking about a different class
warriors have their own issues lol but a good warr will stun they target before wasting a eviscerate.

It’s the same with Necromancer too. Lich Forms 3k zerker on bunker auto attacks is an automatic team fight win generally but they aren’t that good for the next 150 seconds if focused at all. Necromancer can easily chain fear for 10+ seconds through Spectral Wall abuse for 11k damage with Terror alone. That downed target is now being ressed as you spread the conditions on all the revivers for another team fight win on a 45 second cooldown at most, even if the guy is ressed, unless a Guardian spins on a light field or uses “Save Yourselves!”. Roaming in WvW wise too Terror is far stronger since you can take traits like Reaper’s Protection since you don’t need the 50% fear duration for 100% condition duration in WvW.

stability?
stun breaks?
aoe condi removal from team mates?
dodge?

Corrupt Boon, Spinal Shivers, Chill of Death

But then where are your condition removals if you take the more than 2 stun breaks needed?

As I mentioned Guardian spinning on a light field or “Save Yourselves!” which I rarely see now.

What animation?

corrupt boon will miss 50% of the time the other 50% will only remove 5 boons.
spinal shivers 1 1/4s cast time = more than enough time to dodge and not many condi builds use a focus which complements power much more.
Chill of death, well ok you got me on this one. but we will see how many necro’s wills till use 30 in spite after dumbfire nerf.

if you play wvw and dont bring 2 stun breakers you will be eaten by stuns/daze no matter what build they enemy has. which is why I advocate for more self condi removal and less aoe condi removal so you can be more in control of your own character.

glaphen.5230:

But then where are your condition removals if you take the more than 2 stun breaks needed?

Where are my stun breaks If I take 2 condition removals? Now I am weak to the Guardian/Warrior hammer CC.

You see how this is panning out. You can only build one way or another. You cannot build to counter everything. That is kind of the point.

The problem is, players invest in damage, anti stun, and direct damage defense, then come to the forums and make QQ threads about conditions.

Then they build for conditions then complain about suns/knock backs all over the forums, QQing about CC.

Then they make all out tanky builds, run to the forums after to post QQ about their lack of damage.

The fact is, you have to focus one way or the other, or be mediocre at all. it is the players choice. The problems start, when said players run to the forums QQing because they lose to the one they didn’t build against, make false claims or uninformed accusations.

It is broken when you cant even see the SKILL applied condition!

to be fair. the calculations done for power-dmg are incomplete.

Elaron.8150:

It is broken when you cant even see the SKILL applied condition!

do you carry any stability/stun breaks to get out of a fear chain?
do you use any condi removal to get rid of bleeds/burning

Brando.1374:

glaphen.5230:

Brando.1374:

glaphen.5230:

Brando.1374:

glaphen.5230:

Brando.1374:

glaphen.5230:

Brando.1374:

I made some necro comparisons
http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3859738 spvp rabid condi needed I think 7+ skills

http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3848362 spvp valk power needed 3 utilities and just AA

reasoning behind using valk is due to the similar stats to rabid

As I said in my PMs to him since those were the only ones I could find, good luck finding a guy to stand in your wells as you auto attack. Also a Terrormancer build should be fear chaining for a guaranteed kill on anyone, you cannot counter a good Spectral Wall Terrormancer.

it took the condi build 7+ key strokes in order to come close to the dps of a well timed power rotation. My point of those vids was to show that power is in face stronger damage. if we had 5 necro do this we would destroy a whole team on a point. or make them get out of the way.

Also conditions are capped in all game modes. once you reach 25 stacks of bleeds thats it.
while with power you can get hit back to back with 10k+ attacks with no damage cap.

Well timed is a good laugh at E,M5,M4,F1,F1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1.
But power attacks tend to have clear animations, melee range application, cooldowns. Why would I use zerker Axe Warrior to Eviscerate for an easily dodged 10k when I can throw an Impale instantly for 10k damage if they remove immobilize, switch to longbow and Pin Down them into a Combustive Shot while dancing. What they used all their condition removal? Do it again before its off cooldown. Also did I mention my sweet 30k hp with 3k armor?

your talking about a different class
warriors have their own issues lol but a good warr will stun they target before wasting a eviscerate.

It’s the same with Necromancer too. Lich Forms 3k zerker on bunker auto attacks is an automatic team fight win generally but they aren’t that good for the next 150 seconds if focused at all. Necromancer can easily chain fear for 10+ seconds through Spectral Wall abuse for 11k damage with Terror alone. That downed target is now being ressed as you spread the conditions on all the revivers for another team fight win on a 45 second cooldown at most, even if the guy is ressed, unless a Guardian spins on a light field or uses “Save Yourselves!”. Roaming in WvW wise too Terror is far stronger since you can take traits like Reaper’s Protection since you don’t need the 50% fear duration for 100% condition duration in WvW.

stability?
stun breaks?
aoe condi removal from team mates?
dodge?

Corrupt Boon, Spinal Shivers, Chill of Death

But then where are your condition removals if you take the more than 2 stun breaks needed?

As I mentioned Guardian spinning on a light field or “Save Yourselves!” which I rarely see now.

What animation?

corrupt boon will miss 50% of the time the other 50% will only remove 5 boons.
spinal shivers 1 1/4s cast time = more than enough time to dodge and not many condi builds use a focus which complements power much more.
Chill of death, well ok you got me on this one. but we will see how many necro’s wills till use 30 in spite after dumbfire nerf.

if you play wvw and dont bring 2 stun breakers you will be eaten by stuns/daze no matter what build they enemy has. which is why I advocate for more self condi removal and less aoe condi removal so you can be more in control of your own character.

Missing a instant cast? Yeah Spinal Shivers is dodgable but good luck with the animation on an Asura. Dhuumfire nerf is hardly a nerf if you just have to spend an extra 3/4 of a second after Doom to get a precision free burning and you still need the 30% condition duration. But no you actually need 3 stun breaks to beat a good Terrormancer fear chain unless you have no CC because of Reaper’s Protection, which means you lack condition removal most likely.

coglin.1867:

glaphen.5230:

But then where are your condition removals if you take the more than 2 stun breaks needed?

Where are my stun breaks If I take 2 condition removals? Now I am weak to the Guardian/Warrior hammer CC.

You see how this is panning out. You can only build one way or another. You cannot build to counter everything. That is kind of the point.

The problem is, players invest in damage, anti stun, and direct damage defense, then come to the forums and make QQ threads about conditions.

Then they build for conditions then complain about suns/knock backs all over the forums, QQing about CC.

Then they make all out tanky builds, run to the forums after to post QQ about their lack of damage.

The fact is, you have to focus one way or the other, or be mediocre at all. it is the players choice. The problems start, when said players run to the forums QQing because they lose to the one they didn’t build against, make false claims or uninformed accusations.

But Terrormancer is completely different since you need both stun breaks and massive amounts of condition removal or die by one or the other.

glaphen.5230:

Brando.1374:

glaphen.5230:

Brando.1374:

glaphen.5230:

Brando.1374:

glaphen.5230:

Brando.1374:

glaphen.5230:

Brando.1374:

I made some necro comparisons
http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3859738 spvp rabid condi needed I think 7+ skills

http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3848362 spvp valk power needed 3 utilities and just AA

reasoning behind using valk is due to the similar stats to rabid

As I said in my PMs to him since those were the only ones I could find, good luck finding a guy to stand in your wells as you auto attack. Also a Terrormancer build should be fear chaining for a guaranteed kill on anyone, you cannot counter a good Spectral Wall Terrormancer.

it took the condi build 7+ key strokes in order to come close to the dps of a well timed power rotation. My point of those vids was to show that power is in face stronger damage. if we had 5 necro do this we would destroy a whole team on a point. or make them get out of the way.

Also conditions are capped in all game modes. once you reach 25 stacks of bleeds thats it.
while with power you can get hit back to back with 10k+ attacks with no damage cap.

Well timed is a good laugh at E,M5,M4,F1,F1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1.
But power attacks tend to have clear animations, melee range application, cooldowns. Why would I use zerker Axe Warrior to Eviscerate for an easily dodged 10k when I can throw an Impale instantly for 10k damage if they remove immobilize, switch to longbow and Pin Down them into a Combustive Shot while dancing. What they used all their condition removal? Do it again before its off cooldown. Also did I mention my sweet 30k hp with 3k armor?

your talking about a different class
warriors have their own issues lol but a good warr will stun they target before wasting a eviscerate.

It’s the same with Necromancer too. Lich Forms 3k zerker on bunker auto attacks is an automatic team fight win generally but they aren’t that good for the next 150 seconds if focused at all. Necromancer can easily chain fear for 10+ seconds through Spectral Wall abuse for 11k damage with Terror alone. That downed target is now being ressed as you spread the conditions on all the revivers for another team fight win on a 45 second cooldown at most, even if the guy is ressed, unless a Guardian spins on a light field or uses “Save Yourselves!”. Roaming in WvW wise too Terror is far stronger since you can take traits like Reaper’s Protection since you don’t need the 50% fear duration for 100% condition duration in WvW.

stability?
stun breaks?
aoe condi removal from team mates?
dodge?

Corrupt Boon, Spinal Shivers, Chill of Death

But then where are your condition removals if you take the more than 2 stun breaks needed?

As I mentioned Guardian spinning on a light field or “Save Yourselves!” which I rarely see now.

What animation?

corrupt boon will miss 50% of the time the other 50% will only remove 5 boons.
spinal shivers 1 1/4s cast time = more than enough time to dodge and not many condi builds use a focus which complements power much more.
Chill of death, well ok you got me on this one. but we will see how many necro’s wills till use 30 in spite after dumbfire nerf.

if you play wvw and dont bring 2 stun breakers you will be eaten by stuns/daze no matter what build they enemy has. which is why I advocate for more self condi removal and less aoe condi removal so you can be more in control of your own character.

Missing a instant cast? Yeah Spinal Shivers is dodgable but good luck with the animation on an Asura. Dhuumfire nerf is hardly a nerf if you just have to spend an extra 3/4 of a second after Doom to get a precision free burning and you still need the 30% condition duration. But no you actually need 3 stun breaks to beat a good Terrormancer fear chain unless you have no CC because of Reaper’s Protection, which means you lack condition removal most likely.

Yes missing an instant case, Happens a lot to be honest.
Asura animation issues go both ways so not really fair in this discussion.
Dumbfire is a nerf for most necros since they are bad and rely on spam to proc burning and keep spamming.
you need reliable stability and the ability to stun the necro and make him waste his cool downs.

Brando.1374:

Yes missing an instant case, Happens a lot to be honest.
Asura animation issues go both ways so not really fair in this discussion.
Dumbfire is a nerf for most necros since they are bad and rely on spam to proc burning and keep spamming.
you need reliable stability and the ability to stun the necro and make him waste his cool downs.

If you go with 1 stability Corrupt Boon will make it worse than having none, if you go with 2 you better dodge that Spinal Shivers and hope your not close to 50% health for the first time if you somehow know he even has Chill of Death. If you go with 1 stun break he can still fear you for 8+ seconds depending on whether its Reaper’s Protection, Doom or Reaper’s Mark, 2 is enough for non-Reaper’s Protection builds if one of them has less than a 30 second cooldown, 3 is the only way to survive a Reaper’s Protection build if you have CC and then you slowly die from lack of condition removal as you get kited by his perma chill.

glaphen.5230:

Brando.1374:

Yes missing an instant case, Happens a lot to be honest.
Asura animation issues go both ways so not really fair in this discussion.
Dumbfire is a nerf for most necros since they are bad and rely on spam to proc burning and keep spamming.
you need reliable stability and the ability to stun the necro and make him waste his cool downs.

If you go with 1 stability Corrupt Boon will make it worse than having none, if you go with 2 you better dodge that Spinal Shivers and hope your not close to 50% health for the first time if you somehow know he even has Chill of Death. If you go with 1 stun break he can still fear you for 8+ seconds depending on whether its Reaper’s Protection, Doom or Reaper’s Mark, 2 is enough for non-Reaper’s Protection builds if one of them has less than a 30 second cooldown, 3 is the only way to survive a Reaper’s Protection build if you have CC and then you slowly die from lack of condition removal as you get kited by his perma chill.

fear is a condition that can be cleansed, if a necro gets you between his wall and marks/DS you were outplayed

Especially as a thief who can literally sit in stealth and remove conditions or shadow step away, force the necro to use his CD’s then come back and finish the job.

Or perma blind the necro while trololol 2 spam

question, what auto attack is hitting you while you are stealthed?

Solori.6025:

glaphen.5230:

Brando.1374:

Yes missing an instant case, Happens a lot to be honest.
Asura animation issues go both ways so not really fair in this discussion.
Dumbfire is a nerf for most necros since they are bad and rely on spam to proc burning and keep spamming.
you need reliable stability and the ability to stun the necro and make him waste his cool downs.

If you go with 1 stability Corrupt Boon will make it worse than having none, if you go with 2 you better dodge that Spinal Shivers and hope your not close to 50% health for the first time if you somehow know he even has Chill of Death. If you go with 1 stun break he can still fear you for 8+ seconds depending on whether its Reaper’s Protection, Doom or Reaper’s Mark, 2 is enough for non-Reaper’s Protection builds if one of them has less than a 30 second cooldown, 3 is the only way to survive a Reaper’s Protection build if you have CC and then you slowly die from lack of condition removal as you get kited by his perma chill.

fear is a condition that can be cleansed, if a necro gets you between his wall and marks/DS you were outplayed

Especially as a thief who can literally sit in stealth and remove conditions or shadow step away, force the necro to use his CD’s then come back and finish the job.

Or perma blind the necro while trololol 2 spam

question, what auto attack is hitting you while you are stealthed?

Totally outplayed by a guy controlling your character after hitting with one of 4 no animation fears. A Thief will never win against a good Terrormancer in a 1 vs 1, Shadow Step has a 50 second cooldown. A Thief running away is the same with any fight but this has a higher chance of killing bads who don’t run instantly after Shadow Step.

glaphen.5230:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vQAQFAGiAiUAAAA-zEBBYhApoFRjVdDTHjIqGA-w
49% with 20 points in Curses, going in 30 is a huge waste and the only precision runes that are worth it is 2 Lyssa for the condition duration and that gives a whole 1%.

Why do you consider it a “huge waste” to put the 10 more points into Curses on a condition build?

Ashin.5986:

glaphen.5230:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vQAQFAGiAiUAAAA-zEBBYhApoFRjVdDTHjIqGA-w
49% with 20 points in Curses, going in 30 is a huge waste and the only precision runes that are worth it is 2 Lyssa for the condition duration and that gives a whole 1%.

Why do you consider it a “huge waste” to put the 10 more points into Curses on a condition build?

What else are you gonna get? Rest of the traits can’t be compared to Reaper’s Protection in WvW or Master of Terror in Spvp.

The main problem of conditions is how they stack based on individual caps on each condition on the target, instead a combination of condition, target and source capping.

This allows for particular extreme cases of condition abuse.

You may change traits and skills, but eventually people will find some other loophole in the balance allowing them to spam to many conditions again, or simply switch to other builds that exploit some other loophole in balance.

But what if there was simply no way to hit one of those loopholes? An autobalance system that kicks in only when an extreme situation arises.

For example, with conditions, something like “shared condition caps”.

Right now caps are put only on each condition.
Instead, a target could have a cap on the number of total stacks among all condition they can have (greatly increased for strong rank NPCs meant to be fought by multiple players like veterans, elites, champions, legendaries, and no shared caps at all for epic bosses in PvE). So any enemies outnumbering others can’t blindly put massive amounts of conditions in them and easily overwhelm them. But one character can put more or less the same amount of conditions as now in one target as now.

For example, if the shared condition cap for players should have was calculated to be 50 stacks, if you get 25 bleed and 25 vulnerability, any other new conditions are ignored until one of those stacks runs out.

Something like that would autobalance conditions on their own, affecting only extreme cases like when an entire party is composed solely of condition-spamming mesmers and necromancers and attack the enemies one by one putting all of their conditions into one target that will inevitably go down overwhelmed with conditions. They’ll have to work together and adjust their behavior, either bringing other skills and some direct damage, or spreading their focus over several players instead going all for one so no condition is wasted.

My examples may not be exactly what’s needed, but the may idea of autobalance is the key.

Thanks to autobalance systems, making builds becomes no longer a matter of finding balancing loopholes and creating boring meta builds that are inherently superior until the next skill changes, but achieving maximum efficiency so you don’t make more than what will work on each front, and do not waste skills and effects, so victory depends less on picking the skills and more on using the skills.

Focus solely on CCs and kill enemies exclusively by stunlocking them, and you’ll hit the CC-spam prevention. You’ll be wasting stuns. Focus solely on conditions, and kill enemies exclusively by spamming conditions and running around avoiding combat, you’ll hit the condition spam prevention. You’ll be wasting conditions. And so on.

It’s incredible how quickly the cries of terribad dire users flood this post.

Condition damage needs a huge nerf. Way bigger then what ferocity is going to do to the rest of the entire game, despite it being a pve oriented nerf.

Cygnus.6903:

It’s incredible how quickly the cries of terribad dire users flood this post.

Condition damage needs a huge nerf. Way bigger then what ferocity is going to do to the rest of the entire game, despite it being a pve oriented nerf.

The problem with the nerf condition group is nobody is giving suggestions they are just pointing fingers.

Also the nerf condition group are the ones that love to bring up dire v soldier because they think it will make their case. Then people post videos and calculations but the nerf condi group posts nothing just more finger pointing.

Then the nerf condition group throws in variables like dodge rolls and try to present some scripted fight scenario on how the fight will play out probably assuming they are fighting a equal skilled opponent.

That gets no where except spinning wheels if your argument is dire v soldier then the test and calculations has to be a controlled scenario.

I’ll tell you all day long that I have a thief and know how p/d thieves play so I don’t have a problem with them on my main which is elementalist but someone else might not be able to fight them and always die. Then someone comes in and says oh they sucked that’s why you beat them no p/d thief should lose to a ele this can’t be calculated that is all opinion including my own.

At least the pro condition side is giving some strong cases to back it up while the nerf condi side is giving anecdotal evidence.

coglin won this thread.

and condition damage itself is fine, I don’t get it why people keep saying dire is so good. dire is horrible for most situations, your dps with dire is laughable and survivability is not that dependent on vit/tough stats alone.

easy access condi spam buttons on short cooldowns such a corrupt boon or spite could use a nerf, I agree, but saying dire is the ultimate set for roamers is just cluelessness.

Maskaganda.2043:

easy access condi spam buttons on short cooldowns such a corrupt boon or spite could use a nerf, I agree, but saying dire is the ultimate set for roamers is just cluelessness.

Corrupt Boon: 40 second cooldown, effect depends on target
Signet of Spite: 60 second cooldown, will not kill on its own, one condition gets removed with any auto attack, two of the remaining ones are probably already on you.

I wouldn’t call either of those “condi spam buttons on short cooldowns.”

Still waiting for any kittening videos or spreadsheets or whatever you people keep spewing to actually be posted.

glaphen.5230:

Still waiting for any kittening videos or spreadsheets or whatever you people keep spewing to actually be posted.

Why? It’s clear the videos won’t satisfy you because you want skill to be accounted for. So would we do that? How could we spreadsheet a actual guild wars 2 fight?

We can post montages of 1vX and maybe you would like that but we can do that for direct damage too.

Where is your spreadsheets and videos supporting your argument all we keep getting is what you “feel”

glaphen.5230:

Still waiting for any kittening videos or spreadsheets or whatever you people keep spewing to actually be posted.

I can post you videos of me vs other players but that will only show you how to play a necro without dumbfire.

oZii.2864:

glaphen.5230:

Still waiting for any kittening videos or spreadsheets or whatever you people keep spewing to actually be posted.

Why? It’s clear the videos won’t satisfy you because you want skill to be accounted for. So would we do that? How could we spreadsheet a actual guild wars 2 fight?

We can post montages of 1vX and maybe you would like that but we can do that for direct damage too.

Where is your spreadsheets and videos supporting your argument all we keep getting is what you “feel”

Yeah the exact same for you except you kittenes keep talking about these amazing videos, calculations and spreadsheets that no one wants to give a simple link to.

glaphen.5230:

oZii.2864:

glaphen.5230:

Still waiting for any kittening videos or spreadsheets or whatever you people keep spewing to actually be posted.

Why? It’s clear the videos won’t satisfy you because you want skill to be accounted for. So would we do that? How could we spreadsheet a actual guild wars 2 fight?

We can post montages of 1vX and maybe you would like that but we can do that for direct damage too.

Where is your spreadsheets and videos supporting your argument all we keep getting is what you “feel”

Yeah the exact same for you except you kittenes keep talking about these amazing videos, calculations and spreadsheets that no one wants to give a simple link to.

I did provide Necro power vs condi vids where both had the same target.
if you want an spreadsheet make on your self. get a build calculator and compare the possible damage done. I could do this for a necro since I main one. for other classes I would have to defer to others.

glaphen.5230:

oZii.2864:

glaphen.5230:

Still waiting for any kittening videos or spreadsheets or whatever you people keep spewing to actually be posted.

Why? It’s clear the videos won’t satisfy you because you want skill to be accounted for. So would we do that? How could we spreadsheet a actual guild wars 2 fight?

We can post montages of 1vX and maybe you would like that but we can do that for direct damage too.

Where is your spreadsheets and videos supporting your argument all we keep getting is what you “feel”

Yeah the exact same for you except you kittenes keep talking about these amazing videos, calculations and spreadsheets that no one wants to give a simple link to.

? Time post is accurate controlled Dps test but it doesn’t work for you because it isn’t pro players 1v1ing. Nothing anyone posts will work for you because you ready to say “Dude nobody would get hit by that” you would continue with player 1 would do Y when player 2 does X.

Nobody can give you a calculation using simulated players with skill levels you find acceptable.

Interesting thread. New to the game (maguuma ftw) but I’ve played quite a few MMO’s focused on PvP. First thing I have noticed is that condi builds are pretty solid and a bit stronger than pure DPS, but they in no way, shape, or form provide the gankimg power of full DPS. Knowledgeable players who run these builds can easily destroy players in 1vX encounters and then have time to either get out to keep their stacks or try for another before adds come. Pure condi builds take precious time to get their kills which result in having to get dem stacks back up. To me it’s a balanced ratio where a few minor tweaks are needed to bring certain outlier classes inline with the rest.

Azukas.1426:

Pure condi builds take precious time to get their killswhich result in having to get dem stacks back up.

Nope, i’d even dare to say some of the burst cond builds out there have more burst than some power builds.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vQAQNAoYWjc00SbNNO2whbCB6x7hLOTUhhh6x6wOfIA-z0BBofCiEBBiKAM1sIasFOFRjVZDT9iIqOAACwOrz6cnBWv6Vv6Vv6Zn7cn7cn7sUAjKMC-w

attack: 3513
Crit rate: 38%
armor: 2628
HP: 25882
crit damage: 48%

AA: 948+735+1261 = 2944 in less than 2s. 1m of AA = 88320 damage non crit
D2: 2835
D3: 788
D4: 651 Possible 3 hits
D5: 525 AOE

WoS: 4356
WoC: 2172

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vQAQNArYWjc0Ueb3NG3webCQSx1PPpI7vjeccwKD-zECB4iCiUFAk0gkHQZqFRjtGsIasKZER1KlYBAQAmZZWmzMw4Fv4Fv4FPzcmzcmzcmlCAipRA-w

Condi dmg: 2126
crit rate: 23%
armor: 2846
HP: 26742
condi duration: 40%

AA: 867 + 867 + 1659= 3393 after 5and a half seconds.
S2: 4265 over 9 3.4s
s3: 353
D4: 218 3 possible hits
D5: 4342 over 14s

As I already said who is gonna sit there inside wells while being auto attacked. Power can do more damage but it is far harder to pull off in 99% of PvP situations.

coglin.1867:

Really, so the 32 videos (2 power and 2 condi builds for each profession) and Full damage comparison spread sheet do not exist now. Or the multiple others who have posted similar? I will gladly relink some here. All you have to do in return is video 2 soldiers gear and 2 dire gear videos of your own, comparing the damage. It will hep you learn for yourself. Had you actually done this before you spoke out of a lack of understanding of the compared damage in the first place, you wouldn’t have this confusion.

Post them – post your proof or stop mentioning it.
You’re saying I’m making things up? Fine. But so are you – and until you post something to back your claims up I’m going to revert to the good old method of old : I’m right and you’re wrong because I say so.

The status quo has been set- it’s up to you to prove me wrong or just stop trying to act like you know what’s up – because so far all you’ve got is claims – which is what you criticized me for in other threads.
I made claims – some based on experiences, others based on extrapolation or maybe even educated guesses.
You claimed that I was in the wrong – and that you had factual evidence to support it – yet in all those threads, including this one – you have yet to provide links to it.

I find it incredibly amusing how you keep mentioning " all this evidence " – which is apparently right under our noses ( yet I’ve somehow missed it all even though I actually youtube searched like you suggested and came up with nothing) but you refuse to post any links to it.
That doesn’t seem suspicious at all.

So good luck.

Sons.5493:

Azukas.1426:

Pure condi builds take precious time to get their killswhich result in having to get dem stacks back up.

Nope, i’d even dare to say some of the burst cond builds out there have more burst than some power builds.

I haven’t seen it yet, but I will readily admit that my playtime is rather limited to most on here though.

Azukas.1426:

Sons.5493:

Azukas.1426:

Pure condi builds take precious time to get their killswhich result in having to get dem stacks back up.

Nope, i’d even dare to say some of the burst cond builds out there have more burst than some power builds.

I haven’t seen it yet, but I will readily admit that my playtime is rather limited to most on here though.

He is correct, but only because not all power builds are meant to burst. Some are intended for sustained damage (such as any necro Power build).

However, compare any condi burst to any power burst, and the power build blows conditions out of the water like Mythbusters blows up trucks.