Guild Wars 2

Brando.1374:

hooma.9642:

1 guy mentioned it already. just implement a hard cap for maximal condi-dmg per second on a guy depending on life. then we have the same like in gw1. there it was not possible to get more then 10 degeneration ticks.

with that it should not be possible anymore to burst with condis. thats the only problem we have atm with condis. and thats not really a condi problem, its a game problem. the game or engine provides to much things that works additive without a cap or dimishing returns. so everything that overextend the border of being ok gets smelley cheese.

its every where.

evadespam, condisspam, certain boonspam,cc spam and so on. the game needs CAPS!

25 stack limit is a cap.

but its a wrong cap. its independed from the one it affects. it just count the number of stacks. 1 stack could do 1 dmg or 1000.. with a max dmg-cap and not amount of stacks it would not matter if the target has 1000000 health or 100. nor would the dmg per condi matter or the amount of different dmg-condis. it would always be real DAMAGE OVER TIME, like it should be. and not a CONDI-BURST like it can be very often in this game. attacking an ele or guardian with condis is different then attacking a necro or warrior. with that change different classes with less condis could also play a valid condi-build if they reach the dmg-cap fast enough just with less cover-condis. it would also prevent condi-bunker stacking as teamcomposition.

overstacking the dmg-cap would prevent healticks like it was in gw1.

hooma.9642:

Brando.1374:

hooma.9642:

1 guy mentioned it already. just implement a hard cap for maximal condi-dmg per second on a guy depending on life. then we have the same like in gw1. there it was not possible to get more then 10 degeneration ticks.

with that it should not be possible anymore to burst with condis. thats the only problem we have atm with condis. and thats not really a condi problem, its a game problem. the game or engine provides to much things that works additive without a cap or dimishing returns. so everything that overextend the border of being ok gets smelley cheese.

its every where.

evadespam, condisspam, certain boonspam,cc spam and so on. the game needs CAPS!

25 stack limit is a cap.

but its a wrong cap. its independed from the one it affects. it just count the number of stacks. 1 stack could do 1 dmg or 1000.. with a max dmg-cap and not amount of stacks it would not matter if the target has 1000000 health or 100. nor would the dmg per condi matter or the amount of different dmg-condis. it would always be real DAMAGE OVER TIME, like it should be. and not a CONDI-BURST like it can be very often in this game. attacking an ele or guardian with condis is different then attacking a necro or warrior. with that change different classes with less condis could also play a valid condi-build if they reach the dmg-cap fast enough just with less cover-condis. it would also prevent condi-bunker stacking as teamcomposition.

overstacking the dmg-cap would prevent healticks like it was in gw1.

1 stack of any condition (burning) will require around 2700 condition damage to go over 1k damage.
Use http://gw2.hazno.net/ to calculate how much damage you will deal or get.

condition builds are capped on damage due to the limit of stacks and how conditions override eachother.

Brando.1374:

hooma.9642:

Brando.1374:

hooma.9642:

1 guy mentioned it already. just implement a hard cap for maximal condi-dmg per second on a guy depending on life. then we have the same like in gw1. there it was not possible to get more then 10 degeneration ticks.

with that it should not be possible anymore to burst with condis. thats the only problem we have atm with condis. and thats not really a condi problem, its a game problem. the game or engine provides to much things that works additive without a cap or dimishing returns. so everything that overextend the border of being ok gets smelley cheese.

its every where.

evadespam, condisspam, certain boonspam,cc spam and so on. the game needs CAPS!

25 stack limit is a cap.

but its a wrong cap. its independed from the one it affects. it just count the number of stacks. 1 stack could do 1 dmg or 1000.. with a max dmg-cap and not amount of stacks it would not matter if the target has 1000000 health or 100. nor would the dmg per condi matter or the amount of different dmg-condis. it would always be real DAMAGE OVER TIME, like it should be. and not a CONDI-BURST like it can be very often in this game. attacking an ele or guardian with condis is different then attacking a necro or warrior. with that change different classes with less condis could also play a valid condi-build if they reach the dmg-cap fast enough just with less cover-condis. it would also prevent condi-bunker stacking as teamcomposition.

overstacking the dmg-cap would prevent healticks like it was in gw1.

1 stack of any condition (burning) will require around 2700 condition damage to go over 1k damage.
Use http://gw2.hazno.net/ to calculate how much damage you will deal or get.

condition builds are capped on damage due to the limit of stacks and how conditions override eachother.

seems u have understanding problems. seems u have problems understanding that 1k damage per condis is less dangerous the more amount health the target has, just as hint, we have different level of ground health. seems u have problems that with the current engine only classes with high amount of different dmg-condis are valid condi builds. seems u have problem understanding that conditions override each other is a problem too. seems u have problem understanding that the limit of stacks and duration/ recharge of condi application is in favour for stacking condi builds as teamcomposition. the current mechanic is independ of target and favours builds with different condis.

btw i just have 5vs5 or less in mind. anything more is unbalanced by default. the site u mentioned is useless, cause its out of date.

Brando.1374:

hooma.9642:

Brando.1374:

hooma.9642:

1 guy mentioned it already. just implement a hard cap for maximal condi-dmg per second on a guy depending on life. then we have the same like in gw1. there it was not possible to get more then 10 degeneration ticks.

with that it should not be possible anymore to burst with condis. thats the only problem we have atm with condis. and thats not really a condi problem, its a game problem. the game or engine provides to much things that works additive without a cap or dimishing returns. so everything that overextend the border of being ok gets smelley cheese.

its every where.

evadespam, condisspam, certain boonspam,cc spam and so on. the game needs CAPS!

25 stack limit is a cap.

but its a wrong cap. its independed from the one it affects. it just count the number of stacks. 1 stack could do 1 dmg or 1000.. with a max dmg-cap and not amount of stacks it would not matter if the target has 1000000 health or 100. nor would the dmg per condi matter or the amount of different dmg-condis. it would always be real DAMAGE OVER TIME, like it should be. and not a CONDI-BURST like it can be very often in this game. attacking an ele or guardian with condis is different then attacking a necro or warrior. with that change different classes with less condis could also play a valid condi-build if they reach the dmg-cap fast enough just with less cover-condis. it would also prevent condi-bunker stacking as teamcomposition.

overstacking the dmg-cap would prevent healticks like it was in gw1.

1 stack of any condition (burning) will require around 2700 condition damage to go over 1k damage.
Use http://gw2.hazno.net/ to calculate how much damage you will deal or get.

condition builds are capped on damage due to the limit of stacks and how conditions override eachother.

Which is a huge portion of why you won’t see more than a few condi users in organized group compositions in higher tier WvW…..you take just enough to punch through the AE cleanse spam but more than that runs a risk of self nerfing your damage potential just to deal any damage that way.

Once you scale group combat size up past a certain point it is almost always unquestionably more effective to just run a pure power comp that does not have to deal with the condi drawbacks.

Now I do definitely agree that conditions can be applied too easily. I 100% agree with this. No manner of condition cleansing can keep you clean from them all the time, especially against necromancers. If there is any issue regarding conditions it’s not the damage, but the application rates and I would be fine with a reduction in them, but it would need to be done very carefully.

This is entirely the point. At no point should condition removal overshadow application. If this were the case, then anyone specced to do conditions would never be able to kill anyone. That would be like people saying we need more and bigger ways to regenerate or heal in a fight. Healing/cleansing should never overshadow the amount of damage that can be done.

@MonMalthias
You probably want to post it as a separate thread regardless, as it just went under in this one.

MiLkZz.4789:

In WvW you can get a full dire engineer with 3.2k condition damage and 50% condi duration (from food alone), burn will tick for 1.2k/s, poison for 400/s.

I roamed with it and mostly things die when you drop the supply crate, play very passively and defensively and nothing kills you. You can build completely around that you have a low crit chance. And you are tanky as kitten.

I play a full rabid engi aswel with PU and interrupts, don’t think you can lose a 1vs1 with that. Got to admit it ain’t that easy to play but those condi bursts are insane.

Here my friend playing with his condi thief, just look at how fast those health bars melt. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htRTuNyTIfo

Conditions do way to many things, debuffing every single stat/thing possible and dealing way to much damage/s. It’s to easy to kite with them and just to easy to apply. I mean stacking 10stacks of bleed (ain’t hard) + poison + burn + torment = 3.8k dmg/s. And then I am not even counting confussion in. Apply and play defensively, while the power build has to go defensively aswel to remove them, dealing no damage in the process. Not to mention that most condition dealing skills deal regular damage aswel, not much but it counts up.

I roam 70%-80% of my time in WvW and play 15 hours/day, and I am forced to spec really heavy into condition removal just do stand a chance against condition classes. This cuts my damage by a lot. Mostly I still win because they play bad, but sometimes you meet that skilled necro and you just don’t stand a single chance, doesn’t matter how well you play.

The only thing I have seen in this thread is people trying to compare rabid with dire and PVT? I mean seriously? That ain’t even the problem, didn’t anyone read my post? Yes rabid is most likely superior to dire, but some builds get way to many benefits from dire. And PVT ain’t even close in comparrison to these 2. Full PVT with melandru will hit around 800 and 1.2k with his strongest attacks against a full dire. And that full dire guy will melt him, just use the +40% condi duration food and some in your traits and GG.

Now focus again on the problems, how to counter low telegraphed condition spam skills, working from range, the cheer amount of conditions out there, immob chaining, the fact conditions 100% debuff power builds into oblivion. How to fix them in large fights and how to fix them in small fights.

Conditions are broken, no way to deny it.

1.
How are you getting 3k condition damage and +50% condi duration on a viable build for an engineer?

And then explain how you are keeping up a maximum of 25 might stacks at all times?

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vcAQJAqOGRGVg0A9AAAgR8zDAAAgQA-z0BB4iBkCAgWAMTtIasl1FRjVJjIqWpELAACwMLzAY8iX8iX8inZOzZOzZOzSBAx0I-w

( you may also want to explain how you live through burst, other condi builds, or builds that can hit you while lowering the overall duration of your conditions, or make a vid )

Also anyone in the CD,NSP matchup wanna fight me with a condi build latr tonight?
This is the build I use on my warrior

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vIAQNBiYDbkpjGP78wKEORDIoHaYVwFKFzBdkUgGsBA-zEyAoLB5sXR0YLjFRjVNDpXw0lJVpGYXCRWNZAY2CA-w

I have cleric items because im poor…

dont judge me…

P.S.

If I have to deal with a mesmer, I am bringing mine

MiLkZz.4789:

Here my friend playing with his condi thief, just look at how fast those health bars melt. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htRTuNyTIfo

The condi spikes at the beginning of this video are when he pops thieves guild with venom share. Nobody else has venom share. I don’t even know what the Thieves scale off of could never find it so I assume they have there own base power as in they probably do more direct damage then your friend does.

The middle part of the video he is with a necromancer most of the time.

I sorta watched the last part but it is the same thing the spike burst are when thieves guild is up and he venom shares thats been around forever. Before there was another decent venom people ran ambush.

Sons.5493:

>BUT GET CONDITION REMOVAL ZOMG

As a thief player there’s not enough cond removal in any kind of build which can remove all the condition that condition build can apply (and re-apply cus why not) other than heavily investing in a trait line that i may or may not feel like traiting in just to counter game imbalances. That’s the reality of gw2.

Anyone who denies how conditions are completly broken in this game on all classes going from Thief, mesmer, engie (broken as kitten k bye) Necro and warrior (also gg broken), is purely lying to himself or is a condition user himself.

As a Powermancer, I bring Staff partially because of the condi transfer from Putrid Mark, and I often equip Plague Signet to get rid of condis. As a Warrior, before Cleansing Ire (and even after), Signet of Stamina was a staple on my utility bar in place of something like Endure Pain because I wanted to be able to deal with condis. When Zerker Stance was changed to be a condi immunity, I still brought Sig of Stam in many situations.

Something should only be claimed to be “too strong” when you do everything in your power to stop it and it still feels like there is nothing you can do. I see people load up their traits/utilities in all damage, then they can’t clear condis and just tick down to them. Are they coming here to complain about condis when they did nothing to help themselves?

When you say that you don’t feel like traiting in a mechanism for your class to deal with conditions while complaining about the strength of conditions, it makes me think you want the game to be imbalanced so you can feel justified in just maxing damage for those big, anger-inducing Backstabs.

I have no sympathy for players who actively say they don’t feel like helping themselves deal with a mechanic. If your class simply doesn’t have the tools, that’s one thing. If those tools just aren’t “the cool thing to do”, then I don’t care.

oZii.2864:

MiLkZz.4789:

Here my friend playing with his condi thief, just look at how fast those health bars melt. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htRTuNyTIfo

The condi spikes at the beginning of this video are when he pops thieves guild with venom share. Nobody else has venom share. I don’t even know what the Thieves scale off of could never find it so I assume they have there own base power as in they probably do more direct damage then your friend does.

The middle part of the video he is with a necromancer most of the time.

I sorta watched the last part but it is the same thing the spike burst are when thieves guild is up and he venom shares thats been around forever. Before there was another decent venom people ran ambush.

I want to Plague Signet this Thief so badly. Just once.

Confusion needs to be toned down :|

mrauls.6519:

Confusion needs to be toned down :|

Again? Nobody complains about confusion in spvp so I doing they do a WvW only change since it is a non factor in spvp

oZii.2864:

mrauls.6519:

Confusion needs to be toned down :|

Again? Nobody complains about confusion in spvp so I doing they do a WvW only change since it is a non factor in spvp

Actually Ozii

This was already nerfed in the PvE/WvW side.
The reason people are all of a sudden noticing it now is because of the runes.
and Perplexity Runes are getting nerfed in 2 weeks as well.
SOOOOOO …If people are still having trouble with confusion after the patch, i dont even know what to tell you

Yea that’s what I meant with again because I know it’s not a issue in spvp never has been. I remember when confusion was pve levels in WvW and glamour Mesmer was a thing.

Why more nerfs? I say up the damage of the other builds and we’ll all be kicking butt

Condition damage can be reduced, there are skills that get rid of condition damage.

You can negate condi damage by way of removing the conditions. The only issue I see with it all is skill1 on some weapons for some classes will always reapply those conditions. I have mentioned this before on other posts that I think a big part of the problem is that we get “free” conditions with no cooldowns thanks to skill 1 skills.

Imagine how many world bosses might not come close to those 25 stacks if we weren’t all applying them with skill 1. If we were only applying with other skills that have cooldowns and they don’t last too long we might actually see conditions not at max stack.

Perhaps this is where you need to direct your idea…..

proof? numbers? Would you please be so kind to display them because without them your words have very little value.

a t s e.9614:

I know because I tryed both:

- condi warr 4k armor 25k hp
- zerk warr 2,4k armor 18k hp

They both deal the same damage ( in a 1v1 situation) .

No

but Condi Warrior could use some nerfs.

Oh wait, they’re giving Pin Down a tell and nerfing Impale.

Yeah, reduce the amount of damage conditions do over X seconds so that total is less than the amount of damage that direct damage attacks do instantly.

Balanced.

a t s e.9614:

I guess they are nerfing crit dmg because the TTK ( time to kill) is too fast , they should also do the same for conditions and an additionnal 10% because condi builds are easier to play due to high defensive stats coupled with damage.

I know because I tryed both:

- condi warr 4k armor 25k hp
- zerk warr 2,4k armor 18k hp

Which build is easier? the condi. Which build does more damage? They both deal the same damage ( in a 1v1 situation) . Its just that condi is overtime and the other one is direct burst damage. Also direct damage can be easely negated with protection, weakness and high armor while condi dmg cant even be reduced.

You guys were happy cuz crit dmg got nerfed, wait till you see a perplex warr/mes/engi/necro destroying you in few secs with condis while being ridiculously tanky.

Also if you think that somehow this nerf will change the zerk meta in PvE you’re wrong, it will encourage it even more, PVT/cleric leech will be the first to get kicked from any sort of PvE content.

Anyway thats pretty much it, if you wanna nerf damage, you should also nerf condi.

Ugh, here we go again…………………………
You are comparing condition damage as a whole to a zerker build. The worst part is you are being intentionally dishonest about it. Example. A carrion geared warrior will not have any more armor then a zerker warrior.

Got a single fact to support your ultimate goal?? You comparing unequal statistical gear then avoiding offering information.

A soldiers gear warrior will out damage a dire gear warrior all day long and twice on sundays. Both of those geat sets have the exact same HP and armor.

Ican only assume you making your references to dire gear but your so none specific I cannot be certain. If your trying to claim that a dire warrior can even come close to a zerker warriors damage out put, then you truely do not know anything about the profession.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Yeah, reduce the amount of damage conditions do over X seconds so that total is less than the amount of damage that direct damage attacks do instantly.

Balanced.

Umm it already is that way. If your trying to claim it is otherwise, I challenge to yo offer some damage comparisons to support your skewed suggestion.

Funny idea, considering that pure Condition builds are currently considered -at best- lackluster in PvE content. I (as someone who runs mainly Condi or Hybrid builds) will take that 20% nerf, ONCE my build(s) of choice are AS wanted in PvE as an equivalent Berserker-heavy direct DPS.

(Note, I don’t think that nerfing Zerker or the Crit Dmg > Ferocity biz were the “right” way to go. Indeed, why create a new stat to balance, when you could work on the max cap of the preexisting stat?)

Lower condi durations is all that is needed

They dont need to nerf condi dmg, it already has restriction in play and can be removed by condi clear which prioritizes DoT conditions. What they need is more suitable condi clear, as it is quite clear which professions have little issues with them and which almost lose it passively on top of short cd condi cleanses/conversions.

One of the reasons I’d say not flat nerf condi dmg is some condi builds are already weak, and also conditions are pathetic in pve since people hit the 25 cap in seconds. No need to nerf other peoples’ fun just because its an issue in pvp. Also I think skills like combustive shot (war lb burst) need rework. There should not be such a high up time for condition effects. I like the war oh sword change, because it doesnt nerf to the dps the skill puts out, but it does open up counterplay without being perma tormented.

Of course they both deal the same amount of damage in a 1v1 because your target has fixed health value. A naked person does the same amount of damage in a 1v1 if that is what you are basing it on.

Proposal

What i would do if i was a dev/Arena.net, i would completely remove all conditions from the classes, except for rangers.

Seriously ,

-what relations between conditions and warriors? Absolutely, None
-what relations between conditions and mesmers? Absolutely, None
-what relations between conditions and guardian? Absolutely, None
-what relations between conditions and engineers? Absolutely, None
-what relations between conditions and thieves? Absolutely, None

- -
-what relations between conditions and rangers? Survivability
-what relations between conditions and necromancer? Blood Ties

NinjaEd.3946:

They dont need to nerf condi dmg, it already has restriction in play and can be removed by condi clear which prioritizes DoT conditions.

Conditions are removed by last in, first out. The most recently applied is removed first. This is one of the issues with fighting a condi class. If my skill only removes a single condition (as so many do) and the 15 stacks of bleed are covered by a couple seconds of vuln, then I’m going to be stuck with the bleeds.

coglin.1867:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Yeah, reduce the amount of damage conditions do over X seconds so that total is less than the amount of damage that direct damage attacks do instantly.

Balanced.

Umm it already is that way. If your trying to claim it is otherwise, I challenge to yo offer some damage comparisons to support your skewed suggestion.

Sorry, the sarcasm must not have gone through. I was being facetious.

But, since you asked, without any gear, Warrior’s Backbreaker hits for 554 damage and crits for 554*1.5 = 831 damage, while Necro Enfeebling Blood hits for 168 + 10 seconds of 2 stacks of Bleeding = 168 + 850 = 1108 damage total over 10 seconds.

With only Dire gear, Necro’s Enfeebling Blood hits for 176 + 1937 = 2106 damage. With full Zerker gear, Warrior’s Backbreaker hits for 1272 and crits for 1272*2.21 = 2811.

I’m not making a point in particular, just giving some numbers from gw2skills.net/editor on a Heavy Armored Target (2600 armor) with no traits, food, sigils, or runes.

I personally think conditions are fine. However, did you know that, with full Dire gear + Undead runes + Sigil of Bursting + Koi Cakes + Tuning Crystal + generic 30/20/0/0/20 build, the simple application of Mark of Blood (Staff #2 on a 6 second cooldown) will be 3 stacks of bleeding over 13.5 seconds totaling 5,341 damage? If you add Chillblains and Reaper’s Mark only, you’ll get another 2,729 poison damage over 10 seconds and 2.5 seconds of fear at 1200 damage/sec with conditions from Terror+Master of Terror, totaling 5341 + 2729 + 2400 = 10470 damage over those 13 seconds, with just those three mark casts.

Again, I’m not saying that’s too much necessarily, but you can start to see why people get all antsy about condis. The binary nature of conditions is that they can be kind of weak with proper cleansing, but insanely strong without.

Cogbyrn.7283:

coglin.1867:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Yeah, reduce the amount of damage conditions do over X seconds so that total is less than the amount of damage that direct damage attacks do instantly.

Balanced.

Umm it already is that way. If your trying to claim it is otherwise, I challenge to yo offer some damage comparisons to support your skewed suggestion.

Sorry, the sarcasm must not have gone through. I was being facetious.

But, since you asked, without any gear, Warrior’s Backbreaker hits for 554 damage and crits for 554*1.5 = 831 damage, while Necro Enfeebling Blood hits for 168 + 10 seconds of 2 stacks of Bleeding = 168 + 850 = 1108 damage total over 10 seconds.

With only Dire gear, Necro’s Enfeebling Blood hits for 176 + 1937 = 2106 damage. With full Zerker gear, Warrior’s Backbreaker hits for 1272 and crits for 1272*2.21 = 2811.

I’m not making a point in particular, just giving some numbers from gw2skills.net/editor on a Heavy Armored Target (2600 armor) with no traits, food, sigils, or runes.

I personally think conditions are fine. However, did you know that, with full Dire gear + Undead runes + Sigil of Bursting + Koi Cakes + Tuning Crystal + generic 30/20/0/0/20 build, the simple application of Mark of Blood (Staff #2 on a 6 second cooldown) will be 3 stacks of bleeding over 13.5 seconds totaling 5,341 damage? If you add Chillblains and Reaper’s Mark only, you’ll get another 2,729 poison damage over 10 seconds and 2.5 seconds of fear at 1200 damage/sec with conditions from Terror+Master of Terror, totaling 5341 + 2729 + 2400 = 10470 damage over those 13 seconds, with just those three mark casts.

Again, I’m not saying that’s too much necessarily, but you can start to see why people get all antsy about condis. The binary nature of conditions is that they can be kind of weak with proper cleansing, but insanely strong without.

Max condition duration is 100% so Master of Terror is useless if you already have base 100% condition duration and you would only get a 2 second fear max with Reaper’s Mark no matter what.

coglin.1867:

A soldiers gear warrior will out damage a dire gear warrior all day long and twice on sundays. Both of those geat sets have the exact same HP and armor.

Yeah, on a dummy that stands still for the entire time but that won’t be the case in an actual fight.

IF, and its an ENORMOUS IF the Developers feel the need to reduce the effectiveness of Condition-based builds in PvP (and that’s clearly what we’re talking about because it is are already grossly inferior to power-based damage in most PvE encounters) it will almost certainly take the form of greater speed, variety, or accessibility to condition cleanses/counters. You can’t just nerf condition damage. That’s both a passive solution and a terrible idea in the broader context of all play modes. You can make the active counter-play to conditions more effective and more interesting.

The changes must be made to the target, not the source.

Broscience.8412:

coglin.1867:

A soldiers gear warrior will out damage a dire gear warrior all day long and twice on sundays. Both of those geat sets have the exact same HP and armor.

Yeah, on a dummy that stands still for the entire time but that won’t be the case in an actual fight.

Why do you assume that a Soldier’s geared person doesn’t have a ranged weapon or the target doesn’t avoid the Dire user’s attacks?

Nike.2631:

IF, and its an ENORMOUS IF the Developers feel the need to reduce the effectiveness of Condition-based builds in PvP (and that’s clearly what we’re talking about because it is are already grossly inferior to power-based damage in most PvE encounters) it will almost certainly take the form of greater speed, variety, or accessibility to condition cleanses/counters. You can’t just nerf condition damage. That’s both a passive solution and a terrible idea in the broader context of all play modes. You can make the active counter-play to conditions more effective and more interesting.

The changes must be made to the target, not the source.

I love you Nike! One of the best posts yet offering a solid suggestion. No wild accusations, anecdotal evidence and flat numbers pulled out of the air like conditions should be nerfed by 20% without a reason except direct damage is getting nerfed by 10%. When white damage isn’t being touched at all.

We’ve already seen that they can wire specific condition removal into the weapon skills. There was an accidentally leaked tool tip for the ranger sword auto-attack that it would remove one stack of bleed on the second attack.

Imagine that tech being applied with real flavor: imagine one of the elementalist’s fire skills removing poison from themselves (purging with flame!) and one of their water weapon skills removing poison. It gives you a reason to use those attacks creatively or to hold them for the combined benefit of its main function and the specific cleanse. Add a warrior attack that lets you “man up” and remove weakness. A Thief attack that doesn’t natively poison, but will transfer a poison from them to the target all “Hey, you dropped something…” style.

These sorts of changes could make both condition dealers and their presumed victims play smarter instead of just nerfing some numbers.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Why do you assume that a Soldier’s geared person doesn’t have a ranged weapon or the target doesn’t avoid the Dire user’s attacks?

Im not assuming anything. I’m implying that a Soldier warrior won’t out dps a Dire warrior all the time in an actual fight.

Broscience.8412:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Why do you assume that a Soldier’s geared person doesn’t have a ranged weapon or the target doesn’t avoid the Dire user’s attacks?

Im not assuming anything. I’m implying that a Soldier warrior won’t out dps a Dire warrior all the time in an actual fight.

Yes you are. You’re assuming that the target makes no moves to avoid the damage from a Dire build as evidenced by

coglin.1867:

coglin.1867:

A soldiers gear warrior will out damage a dire gear warrior all day long and twice on sundays. Both of those geat sets have the exact same HP and armor.

Yeah, on a dummy that stands still for the entire time but that won’t be the case in an actual fight.

So you are saying that against a condition build, they make no effort to defend themselves in an actual fight, or significantly less effort.

EDIT: as an aside, I have no idea why that second quote is being attributed to colgin when. Odd forum quirk, I guess.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Yeah, reduce the amount of damage conditions do over X seconds so that total is less than the amount of damage that direct damage attacks do instantly.

Balanced.

Yes that would be balanced. If you have extreme defence through dire gear, then your offensive output should be a lot weaker to compensate.

You can make the active counter-play to conditions more effective and more interesting.

And also make condition applying less passive. Dhoomsfire change was a good move.

Why do you assume that a Soldier’s geared person doesn’t have a ranged weapon or the target doesn’t avoid the Dire user’s attacks?

Currently the condition warrior has attacks that are difficult to avoid and deal massive damage: pin down and impale. You just need to hit with those two while the pvt warrior has to be on top of you all the time to deal damage. You can’t deal good dps from range as a pvt warrior. Both shrotbow and rifle aa have really low direct damage. Condition warrior can easily kite a pvt warrior forever.

Master of Timespace.2548:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Yeah, reduce the amount of damage conditions do over X seconds so that total is less than the amount of damage that direct damage attacks do instantly.

Balanced.

Yes that would be balanced. If you have extreme defence through dire gear, then your offensive output should be a lot weaker to compensate.

He said “direct damage” not “Zerker”. You can get equal durability as Dire in a power build.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Yes you are. You’re assuming that the target makes no moves to avoid the damage from a Dire build as evidenced by

Broscience.8412:

Yeah, on a dummy that stands still for the entire time but that won’t be the case in an actual fight.

No.. I’m not. In none of my posts do I mention that. I expect both players to mitigate damage och deal as much damage as possible in a fight. But even then you can’t say that X does more damage then Y since a fight is depending on several factors.

Evidenced by what? My first comment simply states that no one will just stand still and eat all damage on purpose in a fight.

Broscience.8412:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Yes you are. You’re assuming that the target makes no moves to avoid the damage from a Dire build as evidenced by

Broscience.8412:

Yeah, on a dummy that stands still for the entire time but that won’t be the case in an actual fight.

No.. I’m not. In none of my posts do I mention that. I expect both players to mitigate damage och deal as much damage as possible in a fight. But even then you can’t say that X does more damage then Y since a fight is depending on several factors.

Evidenced by what? My first comment simply states that no one will just stand still and eat all damage on purpose in a fight.

Context says you were talking specifically about power being out-damaged by conditions on anything that wasn’t just standing there.

Context says that PVT warrior will not outdamage a Dire warrior all the time in a fight, as it does on a training dummy.

Broscience.8412:

Context says that PVT warrior will not outdamage a Dire warrior all the time in a fight, as it does on a training dummy.

Tell me, if it does on a training dummy, why not in a real fight? Because a person will dodge? Because they will kite? What stops them from doing that against the Dire warrior as well?

Broscience.8412:

Context says that PVT warrior will not outdamage a Dire warrior all the time in a fight, as it does on a training dummy.

Isn’t that the point of skill? Making sure your way of fighting is more effective then others? Do we have to remove skillfull condition players because they managed to outdamage a power player?

Because the targets are moving, dodging etc. I’m not saying PVT can’t outdamage a Dire warrior in a fight because that’s not the case, but it won’t do it all the time like on a static target. Do you understand or do I have to explain that in 10 more posts?

Tim: That is far from what I meant. I think you should read this whole thing from the start.

Broscience.8412:

Because the targets are moving, dodging etc. I’m not saying PVT can’t outdamage a Dire warrior in a fight because that’s not the case, but it won’t do it all the time like on a static target. Do you understand or do I have to explain that in 10 more posts?

All right, you finally made a clear, concise statement. Now, what remains sounds pretty balanced to me: two different specs, both focused on durability, putting out similar levels of damage in different ways: one up front, one over time. Since either can out-damage the other, that variance comes down to play on both the damage dealer and the target.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Broscience.8412:

Because the targets are moving, dodging etc. I’m not saying PVT can’t outdamage a Dire warrior in a fight because that’s not the case, but it won’t do it all the time like on a static target. Do you understand or do I have to explain that in 10 more posts?

All right, you finally made a clear, concise statement. Now, what remains sounds pretty balanced to me: two different specs, both focused on durability, putting out similar levels of damage in different ways: one up front, one over time. Since either can out-damage the other, that variance comes down to play on both the damage dealer and the target.

That’s what I read. So what’s the problem?

why not add another buff.. something like Protection but – condi damage
or a -condi duration weapon stat

Valinor.9647:

why not add another buff.. something like Protection but – condi damage
or a -condi duration weapon stat

Because nothing multiplies condition damage. Protection and Weakness balance out the fact direct damage has multipliers in the form of vulnerability, Sigil of Force/Slaying/Impact/Night, traits, and runes. Condition damage lacks these entirely.

As such, condition damage is far more predictable: a bleed from 1800 condition damage always deals exactly the same damage per tick, for example. But it has a significantly lower maximum.

Valinor.9647:

why not add another buff.. something like Protection but – condi damage
or a -condi duration weapon stat

Because condition cleanses. You can completely remove a condition, and in the case of a stack of bleeds, multiple sources of damage at the push of a button. Then you can heal yourself on top of it. You can’t reverse direct damage in the same manner.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Broscience.8412:

Because the targets are moving, dodging etc. I’m not saying PVT can’t outdamage a Dire warrior in a fight because that’s not the case, but it won’t do it all the time like on a static target. Do you understand or do I have to explain that in 10 more posts?

All right, you finally made a clear, concise statement. Now, what remains sounds pretty balanced to me: two different specs, both focused on durability, putting out similar levels of damage in different ways: one up front, one over time. Since either can out-damage the other, that variance comes down to play on both the damage dealer and the target.

That’s what I read. So what’s the problem?

In this specific case it appeared to be a typical case of goalpost moving before clarification was made.

But in a broader meta sense….

The people that think they should not have to have cleanses instead of precious DPS booster skills. Or trash vitality as a worthless stat then kvetch when the awful bad condis make their hp’s gone.

Or the abundance of people that try to frame only power damage as avoidable and balanced when a large number of condition attacks ride along with power damage so if one did not avoid one, by definition they did not bother to avoid the other and are as such complete hypocrites.

Or the people that try to say condi is uncounterable and evil when you often get less overall dps for your stat investment, more things that work to negate condi damage than power damage, and a hard dps cap that cannot be bypassed when it comes to group play.

What you get in return is the ability to bypass armor and protection; reduce enemy healing, damage, and mobility, some soft and hard CC, and the sweet tears of those that can’t see their own culpability in their defeat.

Which is sad really because it gave Mesmer a purpose in zerg v zerg outside of portal and veil bot.