Guild Wars 2

I’ve now become concerned about the future of the mesmer. It seems this class have been getting nerfed nearly every patch and going to be nerfed greatly in the future patch. I do not disagree with the past balances to the mesmer and think the mesmer is well balanced as of right now, but recent information has lead me to believe the nerfing has gone to far.

A lot of people thing the mesmer is OP when it really isn’t. The PU build everyone has been talking about is a joke. Why do I say this? It’s because the PU build is only good against people that don’t know how to fight mesmers. If you know how a mesmer works its not hard at all to fight one and this is true against any mesmer build. So if you nerf the mesmer so that its easy for a normal non-experienced player can do well against a good mesmer. Then it will be a walk in the park for a good player vs a good mesmer.

Reason I’ve become concerned: Anet is doing a double whammy on mesmer survivability.

I recently watched the class balancing video released by the GW2 live stream for I believe March 2014 basically saying deceptive evasion and critical infusion (gives vigor on crit). So what this says is not only can a mesmer dodge less but its less effective for a mesmer to dodge. And I’m not falling for load of crap about deceptive evasion disrupting your clones actions. Nobody cares if they overwrite their clones in fact its a good thing.

1) The main point of Deceptive evasion is to deceive your enemy into possibly attacking a clone instead of the real mesmer.
2) If they don’t then good, your new clone is probably closer to the enemy now than your old one since clones move slow as hell anyway.
3) This nerf forces mesmer to be dependent that people are stupid enough to kill clones or forces them to shatter their illusions in order create new clones with deceptive evasion. This disrupts damage that maybe coming for phantasms (since shattering destroys all illusions).

In turn limiting mesmers purely to shatter builds or staying very close to their illusions.

I would also like to address that the Map Bloodlust icon in WvW is handicap to mesmers that try and look identical to their clones, as it is a big yellow arrow that says “I’m the real mesmer!” and there is nothing the mesmer can do to prevent it from showing. I believe this bonus should be hidden from enemy servers except on the WvW Score board. If anyone wants to know if the other server has Map Bloodlust then they can press “B” and find out.

^ It was already officially stated that Deceptive Evasion will not be changed; due to the feedback given by the community.

This post belongs either in the Mesmer subforum or in the profession balance subforum.

Also, the amount of people who constantly cry about how their profession is being nerfed and ruined etc kind of makes these arguments less credible.

What?! I actually wanted Deceptive Evasion changed…I was hoping for some more careful clone/phantasm balancing rather then just being all BOOM everywhere.

Oh well. My mesmer will just have to start wearing safety goggles.

I don’t know how popular this idea was, but in interest of preemptive defense: I am serious.

This Necromancer laughs at your pain.

Thieves say hi. Nerfed every patch yet still manage to make people cry every round

well i do think mesmer is
in a good spot in spvp and dueling
in a not so good spot in tpvp
and in a terrible spot in wvw raids

all the nerfs have turned us into a 1v1 class only and if u wanna play it in a raid u are only there because of veil and other no dmg utilities and no feedback is not useful anymore as rangers have almost dissappeared from wvw raids for the very same reasons.

In my opinion, thief is the most constantly nerfed class.

I run a PU mesmer in WvW and all I do is troll people. You can keep someone combat locked forever with 90% stealth uptime. After about 10 minutes, they either rage quit or run to a tower.

Honestly, I just leveled this character 6 days ago and haven’t been killed yet. A good PU mesmer is simply impossible to kill. Granted he may not kill you either, but I’m just in it for the kittenos.

We do pretty good in PvE. They just need to fix the rutting sceptard.

Thief gets the hardest nerfs, followed by Ranger as hard as that is to believe. Ele got the worst nerf patch in history long ago and never really recovered from it

Thieves lit the grail-shaped beacon and got spanked.

You obviously need more peril…

Guardian.5142:

Thieves lit the grail-shaped beacon and got spanked.

You obviously need more peril…

And this is coming from a Guardian so I’d listen to him. In fact, most of us thieves have come to hoping we’d be ignored just to avoid yet another nerf.

…and you know what comes after the spankings, right?!?!

Had to delete my Guard. It became too perilous.

Happily a mesmer now. They see me clonin… they hatin… but thats how I roll… cuz I’m…

Deceptively evasive, mutha-kittens. Deal with it.

Is fun that there was a pots on gw2 forums in pvp section where player were rating which classes believe thayt are balanced and which OP. mesmer was in balanced and MM Necros OP. still mesmers get more nerfing than they should and necros less…

Sublimatio.6981:

In my opinion, thief is the most constantly nerfed class.

I think its funny that every thief thinks this, and can even give you a LONG list of nerfs that have happened. However, they conveniently ignore some of the MAJOR buffs that happen at the same time that have conveniently kept thieves as meta-defining and nearly mandatory on all teams without fail. This is because ANet is worried about over-nerfing one of the most popular professions, and REFUSE to do what they did to the Ele to the thief.

There are STILL thief builds that are outputting way more damage given the survivability they have, and can achieve evasion for nearly 15s constantly while doing good damage by using the appropriate skills/dodges. That is INSANE.

Also, mesmers have some aspects that hold them back, but some aspects that are so unreasonably good that they are in a strange place. Some things NEED a nerf, while other things need a buff.

The thief is the most nerfed class of all and once ANet brigns in ferocity into the game, this will hit Thiefs the most, because thiefs are the most reliant class of all from critical hits to deal serious damage, because as long they don’t crit, their normal hits are just absolutely weak, unless you hit with a heart seaker a very weakened foe that has under 50% health due to the raised damage then.

The ferocity change will massively nerf all thiefs, unless anetz doesn’t raise as a little compensation their overall base damage a bit that they deal without landing crit hits.

Thief is mechanically a class, that could need besides of the ranger the most fundemental core mechanic redesigns, cause their features could be all better working.

Venoms would be a much better mechanic for them, if Venoms wouldn’t be Utility Skills, but instead a F-Skill that lets you preparate your weapon skills with a chosen Venom to change the weapon skills based on your chosen Venom to have a better versatility with the thief in combat.

Stealing has to get improved, that they should be able to steal up to 3 items to make thiefs a little bit more mobile. Alot of their Steal Skills also have to be changed or improved. Alot of useless stuff among those skills other then a few exceptions.

Shadow Steps need to be mechanically changed by addign an option as a trait for example, to make out of Shadow Steps > Shadow Walks with a movement mechanic instead of an isntant teleportation, in which you automatically dodge incoming hits while moving to make the thief alot lesser dependant on Stealth and Dodge Rolls.
All other Classes have skills, that can make them temporarely invulnerable basically, except the thief and that can’t be it.

Thiefs need more weapons to give them also that way a bit more build variety.
Adding Offhand Swords, Katars, Whips/Chain Sickles, Claws, Crossbows/Long Bows and Quarterstaffs for example would be great choices to significantly improve this class with fitting weapons.

Alot of the Thief Traits compared to traits of the other Classes are junkl and underpowered. Many of them need merges to make space for better and more interesting build defining traits.

The underwater combat of thiefs is terribly designeed. They are like cats that fear water, because once you touch the water with them, they instantly lose 3/4th of their effectiveness, because 3/4th of their skilsl become instantly unavaiable under water and they even lose their most significant signature feature mostly there – stealth.
Something that absolutely needs to get changed.
Most of their skills could be easily redesigned to work properly under water as like on the land. Take the trap utility skilsl for example.
Whats the big deal to turn these trap skills for underwater combat into mines???

Whats the problem with Shadow Refuge getting slightly changed for underwater to work like a “Sphere” like the guardians skilsl that create sphere like areas to make you in that sphere invisible and your allies?

Whats the Problem to change Blinding Powder into Ink Capsules and Smoke Screen into Ink Screen ?
Ambush could just work liek normal, just summoning a thief to your side by making those summosn able to fight also under water. Also no big deal for Thieves Guild…
When Anet can let make silly necromancer Minions and Mesmer Clones/Phantasms fight under water, whats the god darn problem to make Thief Summons fight under water too???

Daggerstorm could get mechanically changed, like Tornado changes into maelstrom.
instead of a horizontal whirling, Daggerstorm could get changed for underwater into a vertical whirling of the body animation and the daggers just fly chaotically into all directions givign the skill a sphere like damage area around you while you move around.

Thiefs should be able to fight also with their Daggers under water, Daggers in general should be for all classes also an under water Weapon, we use them also in real life there as a weapon.

So much wasted potential in the Thief class and alot of mechanics, that could just work better

mesmers have received nerfs? lol….

Constant nerfs? That must mean you’re part of the thief club. welcome, we have stealth thus we’re OP.

BlackBeard.2873:

Sublimatio.6981:

In my opinion, thief is the most constantly nerfed class.

I think its funny that every thief thinks this, and can even give you a LONG list of nerfs that have happened. However, they conveniently ignore some of the MAJOR buffs that happen at the same time that have conveniently kept thieves as meta-defining and nearly mandatory on all teams without fail. This is because ANet is worried about over-nerfing one of the most popular professions, and REFUSE to do what they did to the Ele to the thief.

There are STILL thief builds that are outputting way more damage given the survivability they have, and can achieve evasion for nearly 15s constantly while doing good damage by using the appropriate skills/dodges. That is INSANE.

Also, mesmers have some aspects that hold them back, but some aspects that are so unreasonably good that they are in a strange place. Some things NEED a nerf, while other things need a buff.

Lol…. Oh god, I hope that’s sarcasm…. It’s really funny . You must be sarcastic and mean to imply warriors instead of thieves . Right?

My impression at this point in the game is that the developers are somewhat naive and don’t really play that much; at the very least, they’re unaware of just what is capable with the current mechanics. They know vaguely what it is they want to do, but they don’t seem to know how to properly do it.

Hurting Mesmer Vigor when it’s possible for a Warrior with an adept trait and Lyssa runes to keep close to permanent uptime or an Acro Thief to have total permanent uptime just intimates that the devs are out of touch. Even more so when you consider that a Mesmer needs to crit and the latter two can keep Vigor up at range or even out of combat entirely.

If I’m not mistaken, wasn’t the last major nerf to mesmers was the change to blurred frenzy from an invul to and evade back in June? After that maybe a few bug fixes but nothing I would call crippling.
Before that I can only think of the glamour nerfs way back then.
IMO Mesmers had a pretty good track record with avoiding nerfs.

I watched Helseth’s stream earlier. Apparently, he is re-rolling to thief.

Obviously, this is seen in a tpvp perspective, but here is some of the conversation regarding the profession change.
__________________________________________________________________

[Stream:] “I thought you said mesmer is viable?”

Mesmer isn’t viable, but I am.
I have made that statement before if you look at my YouTube video.
Here is the deal: Mesmer is viable right now because the competition is kitten.

Mesmer is bad compared to backstab thief. Period.
There is nothing a Mesmer brings that makes it worth taking over a backstab Thief. Nothing. Like what exactly does a Mesmer bring that makes it worth it?

PORTAL! Exactly! That is the one thing that makes you want to bring Mesmer.
Portal! 90 second cool down utility to port the team around. That is the one reason you would bring Mesmer over Thief.

The damage of Mesmer vs Thief is pathetic. Like it’s no contest. Thief easily trumps shatter. The tools I have as Thief exceeds what I have as a Mesmer. Simple as that.

Portal is why you want to take Mesmer, but Mesmer has pathetic mobility compared to thief, way less evades, way less damage. Like the one thing Mesmer has is utility in the portal and more reliable boon stealing. But thief has so much utility as well.

You guys can bother with your Mesmer all that you want. I am not telling you to quit Mesmer, I am saying I am quitting Mesmer.

I am done playing Mesmer, I am done. I am a kitten D/P thief, but I won’t be for long. It has nothing to do with giving up on Mesmer. It is not giving up; it is just realizing that D/P has more potential. If I was as good on D/P thief as I am on Mesmer, then I´d be a much more useful player.

[Stream:] “Can you name some of the key reasons to why you don’t want to play Mesmer anymore?”

OK. Mobility: Thief wins, damage: Thief wins, survivability: Thief wins, utility: Thief slightly worse. So there you go. There you go. Thief is much better than Mesmer in every single regard and they have the same role. No point. Literally no point of playing Mesmer.
__________________________________________________________________

This is off course only one area of the game.
Then again, Mesmers are not that awesome in PVE or wvw outside roaming either. One thing they really have going for them is the fun to play factor.

Considering the statement in the Posting guidelines:

“ Sometimes a profession may not receive as many increases as other classes. A lot of times, this is because that class is already performing very well in the current state of the game.”

I don’t see the mesmer performing “very well in the current state of the game.”
Still waiting for the changes to address that.

Edit. Forgot the link to the stream

shimmerless.4560:

My impression at this point in the game is that the developers are somewhat naive and don’t really play that much; at the very least, they’re unaware of just what is capable with the current mechanics. They know vaguely what it is they want to do, but they don’t seem to know how to properly do it.

Hurting Mesmer Vigor when it’s possible for a Warrior with an adept trait and Lyssa runes to keep close to permanent uptime or an Acro Thief to have total permanent uptime just intimates that the devs are out of touch. Even more so when you consider that a Mesmer needs to crit and the latter two can keep Vigor up at range or even out of combat entirely.

The thief version (if you mean feline grace) is slightly worse than the current mesmer version. Thief access to actual vigor was nerfed by over 33% last patch. There are a few key differences though as to why the mesmer one is going to be nerfed now.

Mesmers have access to more defensive boons (regen, protection, aegis) which thieves don’t have

The trait is a 5 point minor in an offensive line while it’s a 15 point minor for thieves in a defensive line.

The same is happening to guards because of their access to defensive boons.

Maugetarr.6823:

shimmerless.4560:

My impression at this point in the game is that the developers are somewhat naive and don’t really play that much; at the very least, they’re unaware of just what is capable with the current mechanics. They know vaguely what it is they want to do, but they don’t seem to know how to properly do it.

Hurting Mesmer Vigor when it’s possible for a Warrior with an adept trait and Lyssa runes to keep close to permanent uptime or an Acro Thief to have total permanent uptime just intimates that the devs are out of touch. Even more so when you consider that a Mesmer needs to crit and the latter two can keep Vigor up at range or even out of combat entirely.

The thief version (if you mean feline grace) is slightly worse than the current mesmer version. Thief access to actual vigor was nerfed by over 33% last patch. There are a few key differences though as to why the mesmer one is going to be nerfed now.

Mesmers have access to more defensive boons (regen, protection, aegis) which thieves don’t have

The trait is a 5 point minor in an offensive line while it’s a 15 point minor for thieves in a defensive line.

The same is happening to guards because of their access to defensive boons.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAsaVlYmaPHdS5E/5ExmCfKUPFkds9M4qVB-TsAg0CnIKSVkrITRyisFN+Y9xsAA

Maugetarr.6823:

The thief version (if you mean feline grace) is slightly worse than the current mesmer version. Thief access to actual vigor was nerfed by over 33% last patch. There are a few key differences though as to why the mesmer one is going to be nerfed now.

Mesmers have access to more defensive boons (regen, protection, aegis) which thieves don’t have

The trait is a 5 point minor in an offensive line while it’s a 15 point minor for thieves in a defensive line.

Feline grace is automatic, we have to crit for our vigor. On top of that, you can also get vigor from other sources.

Mesmers only have reliable access to regen, protection, and aegis if they take the master trait, PU. In the tpvp setting, people (generally) run shatter. That is a minimum of 20 in dueling and 30 in illusions, making PU inaccessible. All other boons are generated randomly and are unreliable.

If the issue is it only requires 5 minor points, I was then hoping they would move it into the 15 point spot and leave it’s current functionality.

With vigor nerf and 10% crit damage nerf, I am concerned that my GC shatter mesmer, which isn’t the best choice for wvw roaming atm, will become even less viable than it currently is. PU is king for mesmers at the moment, and with these upcoming changes, I am worried I will be forced into PU as the only viable/reliable roaming build.

You are still op when played right. You say youre worried about not being able to troll people hard enough with pu? Hahaha.
Some mesmers not feeling viable in the current state of the game. Huh. What planet are you on.

Stand The Wall.6987:

You are still op when played right. You say youre worried about not being able to troll people hard enough with pu? Hahaha.
Some mesmers not feeling viable in the current state of the game. Huh. What planet are you on.

the wvw planet. i do not agree with mesmer not being viable in spvp, but in wvw we are veilbots and veilbots only. yeah we might can tag a few people, but then again its not enough and no shatter ever reaches. if it does u are lucky. our lack of aoe dmg is the problem in wvw.
in spvp and roaming i feel strong but there is see the problems too. it takes me a long time to take a guardian down for example. its hard to keep the dmg pressure up as a mesmer.

I’m currently trying to think of a skill that has received more nerfs than Portal.

I have a mesmer as a main and mesmers are completely fine. Necros and thieves have it a LOT worse in terms of nerfs.

shimmerless.4560:

Maugetarr.6823:

shimmerless.4560:

My impression at this point in the game is that the developers are somewhat naive and don’t really play that much; at the very least, they’re unaware of just what is capable with the current mechanics. They know vaguely what it is they want to do, but they don’t seem to know how to properly do it.

Hurting Mesmer Vigor when it’s possible for a Warrior with an adept trait and Lyssa runes to keep close to permanent uptime or an Acro Thief to have total permanent uptime just intimates that the devs are out of touch. Even more so when you consider that a Mesmer needs to crit and the latter two can keep Vigor up at range or even out of combat entirely.

The thief version (if you mean feline grace) is slightly worse than the current mesmer version. Thief access to actual vigor was nerfed by over 33% last patch. There are a few key differences though as to why the mesmer one is going to be nerfed now.

Mesmers have access to more defensive boons (regen, protection, aegis) which thieves don’t have

The trait is a 5 point minor in an offensive line while it’s a 15 point minor for thieves in a defensive line.

The same is happening to guards because of their access to defensive boons.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAsaVlYmaPHdS5E/5ExmCfKUPFkds9M4qVB-TsAg0CnIKSVkrITRyisFN+Y9xsAA

And?

Dammerung.6419:

Maugetarr.6823:

The thief version (if you mean feline grace) is slightly worse than the current mesmer version. Thief access to actual vigor was nerfed by over 33% last path. There are a few key differences though as to why the mesmer one is going to be nerfed now.

Mesmers have access to more defensive boons (regen, protection, aegis) which thieves don’t have

The trait is a 5 point minor in an offensive line while it’s a 15 point minor for thieves in a defensive line.

Feline grace is automatic, we have to crit for our vigor. On top of that, you can also get vigor from other sources.

Mesmers only have reliable access to regen, protection, and aegis if they take the master trait, PU. In the tpvp setting, people (generally) run shatter. That is a minimum of 20 in dueling and 30 in illusions, making PU inaccessible. All other boons are generated randomly and are unreliable.

If the issue is it only requires 5 minor points, I was then hoping they would move it into the 15 point spot and leave it’s current functionality.

With vigor nerf and 10% crit damage nerf, I am concerned that my GC shatter mesmer, which isn’t the best choice for wvw roaming atm, will become even less viable than it currently is. PU is king for mesmers at the moment, and with these upcoming changes, I am worried I will be forced into PU as the only viable/reliable roaming build.

When I play mesmer, it is also a shatter build (20/20/0/0/30). That is certainly a possibility that it could decrease shatter builds’ effectiveness. Moving it up may put it in a better place, but you’d probably still go there for DE. They may also be pushing vigorous revelation which be similar to how thieves trait into a defensive line to gain feline grace. Maybe it’ll push things like 0/20/0/20/30 shatter builds which would be similar to a thief trating 0/20/30/20/0: less DPS but more defense.

Buehahahahah, welcome to engineer land, fun time is over. We have this all the time, not forgetting crippled traits, bugs etc..

Maugetarr.6823:

shimmerless.4560:

Maugetarr.6823:

shimmerless.4560:

My impression at this point in the game is that the developers are somewhat naive and don’t really play that much; at the very least, they’re unaware of just what is capable with the current mechanics. They know vaguely what it is they want to do, but they don’t seem to know how to properly do it.

Hurting Mesmer Vigor when it’s possible for a Warrior with an adept trait and Lyssa runes to keep close to permanent uptime or an Acro Thief to have total permanent uptime just intimates that the devs are out of touch. Even more so when you consider that a Mesmer needs to crit and the latter two can keep Vigor up at range or even out of combat entirely.

The thief version (if you mean feline grace) is slightly worse than the current mesmer version. Thief access to actual vigor was nerfed by over 33% last patch. There are a few key differences though as to why the mesmer one is going to be nerfed now.

Mesmers have access to more defensive boons (regen, protection, aegis) which thieves don’t have

The trait is a 5 point minor in an offensive line while it’s a 15 point minor for thieves in a defensive line.

The same is happening to guards because of their access to defensive boons.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAsaVlYmaPHdS5E/5ExmCfKUPFkds9M4qVB-TsAg0CnIKSVkrITRyisFN+Y9xsAA

And?

That is a perfectly viable setup which will give you permanent (as in constant uptime) Vigor as well as the benefits of Feline Grace, so long as you’re on a target. You could also play full Trickery and simply trait for Acro III instead of Mug, to more or less the same ends. That is a mere five points more than the Dueling minor.

Similarly for ten points into Discipline Warriors can have very high Vigor uptime, independent of precision. With a warhorn on swap it’s more or less permanent, and doesn’t require one to be in active combat.

Mesmer does not have access to the evades of any Thief spec. Shatter has little to no Regen (or any sustain whatsoever for that matter), and since the change to staff #4 there is no reliable form of Protection. Thief also isn’t dependent on the endurance bar the way Mesmer is, due to Dueling X. Shatter’s defense comes exclusively from positioning and skill use. I personally know players who will sit at certain vantage points in Foefire etc. because not getting hit at all and minimizing the amount of incoming damage between 20s intervals is the first line of defense for shatter.

It’s duplicitous to cross-compare two classes when it suits you and then claim that they’re different when it doesn’t. In this case I feel it is fair to compare other options, since I feel shatter is somewhat low on the list of current offenders when it comes to game balance.

For the record though, I do believe that five points for Vigor on crit is rather generous, but the problem is with Vigor, not with the Mesmer or the Guardian. And it is unrealistic and completely out-of-touch to hurt Vigor alone when total damage in the game has reached the levels that it has.

All I want is Blurred Frenzy back on a 10-second cooldown. It’s utterly appalling that this skill received a cooldown nerf on top of being nerfed into an evasion (effectively a double over-the-top nerf)… I mean Thieves already have the highest evasion up-time spamming Pistol Whip.

shimmerless.4560:

Maugetarr.6823:

shimmerless.4560:

Maugetarr.6823:

shimmerless.4560:

My impression at this point in the game is that the developers are somewhat naive and don’t really play that much; at the very least, they’re unaware of just what is capable with the current mechanics. They know vaguely what it is they want to do, but they don’t seem to know how to properly do it.

Hurting Mesmer Vigor when it’s possible for a Warrior with an adept trait and Lyssa runes to keep close to permanent uptime or an Acro Thief to have total permanent uptime just intimates that the devs are out of touch. Even more so when you consider that a Mesmer needs to crit and the latter two can keep Vigor up at range or even out of combat entirely.

The thief version (if you mean feline grace) is slightly worse than the current mesmer version. Thief access to actual vigor was nerfed by over 33% last patch. There are a few key differences though as to why the mesmer one is going to be nerfed now.

Mesmers have access to more defensive boons (regen, protection, aegis) which thieves don’t have

The trait is a 5 point minor in an offensive line while it’s a 15 point minor for thieves in a defensive line.

The same is happening to guards because of their access to defensive boons.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAsaVlYmaPHdS5E/5ExmCfKUPFkds9M4qVB-TsAg0CnIKSVkrITRyisFN+Y9xsAA

And?

That is a perfectly viable setup which will give you permanent (as in constant uptime) Vigor as well as the benefits of Feline Grace, so long as you’re on a target. You could also play full Trickery and simply trait for Acro III instead of Mug, to more or less the same ends. That is a mere five points more than the Dueling minor.

Similarly for ten points into Discipline Warriors can have very high Vigor uptime, independent of precision. With a warhorn on swap it’s more or less permanent, and doesn’t require one to be in active combat.

Mesmer does not have access to the evades of any Thief spec. Shatter has little to no Regen (or any sustain whatsoever for that matter), and since the change to staff #4 there is no reliable form of Protection. Thief also isn’t dependent on the endurance bar the way Mesmer is, due to Dueling X. Shatter’s defense comes exclusively from positioning and skill use. I personally know players who will sit at certain vantage points in Foefire etc. because not getting hit at all and minimizing the amount of incoming damage between 20s intervals is the first line of defense for shatter.

It’s duplicitous to cross-compare two classes when it suits you and then claim that they’re different when it doesn’t. In this case I feel it is fair to compare other options, since I feel shatter is somewhat low on the list of current offenders when it comes to game balance.

For the record though, I do believe that five points for Vigor on crit is rather generous, but the problem is with Vigor, not with the Mesmer or the Guardian. And it is unrealistic and completely out-of-touch to hurt Vigor alone when total damage in the game has reached the levels that it has.

Well I’m not going to argue in favor of the warrior, but in this build that you linked it does in fact take 2 traits (neither in a power line) and a specific heal to maintain the level of vigor as the current 5 point minor trait which lies in a precision/crit line.

Edit: As for viable? sort of? Power based thieves are highly dependent on high crit damage and usually hidden killer with dagger or executioner. With this set up you can use neither.

This is much closer to an effective build, but you’re still investing 40 points into trait lines to achieve high vigor uptime:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAsaVlYmiOHfy4E/5Ey2jdqC5JvHk1YZWdF4KA-TsAg0CnIKSVkrITRyisFN+Y9xsAA

Maugetarr.6823:

Well I’m not going to argue in favor of the warrior, but in this build that you linked it does in fact take 2 traits (neither in a power line) and a specific heal to maintain the level of vigor as the current 5 point minor trait which lies in a precision/crit line.

Edit: As for viable? sort of? Power based thieves are highly dependent on high crit damage and usually hidden killer with dagger or executioner. With this set up you can use neither.

I’m not really sure what you meant by the edit, Executioner is preferred in all cases to Hidden Killer and sword is perfectly viable sans dagger main. Perhaps you’re speaking about low or entry-level play.

shimmerless.4560:

Maugetarr.6823:

Well I’m not going to argue in favor of the warrior, but in this build that you linked it does in fact take 2 traits (neither in a power line) and a specific heal to maintain the level of vigor as the current 5 point minor trait which lies in a precision/crit line.

Edit: As for viable? sort of? Power based thieves are highly dependent on high crit damage and usually hidden killer with dagger or executioner. With this set up you can use neither.

I’m not really sure what you meant by the edit, Executioner is preferred in all cases to Hidden Killer and sword is perfectly viable sans dagger main. Perhaps you’re speaking about low or entry-level play.

I was addressing the fact that your build does not use 30 in CS. In fact 5 points are left out, so maybe you linked the incorrect build? I tend to play D/D in every game mode so HK was worth mentioning (i.e: not sans dagger).

I also added the “Edit:” because I finished then had another thought and it’s polite to use it if you’re changing/adding something unless it’s just a misspelled word or 2.

Velimere.7685:

All I want is Blurred Frenzy back on a 10-second cooldown. It’s utterly appalling that this skill received a cooldown nerf on top of being nerfed into an evasion (effectively a double over-the-top nerf)… I mean Thieves already have the highest evasion up-time spamming Pistol Whip.

I’m not sure why Anet seems to be reluctant to dial back overnerfs when they happen. I rarely see them fudging with numbers to come to happy balances. It always seems like they either keep overnerfs, or change the skill completely and hope it works better than before.

Blurred frenzy back to a 10sec cool down is something that could easily compensate for I-leap bugs.

Also, why double Critical Infusion cool down to 10 seconds. If they want Boon duration to be needed for vigor upkeep, why not just make it 8 seconds? It would get the job done and people wouldn’t complain.

Maugetarr.6823:

shimmerless.4560:

Maugetarr.6823:

Well I’m not going to argue in favor of the warrior, but in this build that you linked it does in fact take 2 traits (neither in a power line) and a specific heal to maintain the level of vigor as the current 5 point minor trait which lies in a precision/crit line.

Edit: As for viable? sort of? Power based thieves are highly dependent on high crit damage and usually hidden killer with dagger or executioner. With this set up you can use neither.

I’m not really sure what you meant by the edit, Executioner is preferred in all cases to Hidden Killer and sword is perfectly viable sans dagger main. Perhaps you’re speaking about low or entry-level play.

I was addressing the fact that your build does not use 30 in CS. In fact 5 points are left out, so maybe you linked the incorrect build? I tend to play D/D in every game mode so HK was worth mentioning (i.e: not sans dagger).

I also added the “Edit:” because I finished then had another thought and it’s polite to use it if you’re changing/adding something unless it’s just a misspelled word or 2.

You could put 10 more in to get Executioner, between Fluid Strikes and Lead Attacks I doubt there’d be much difference. I like splitting it between the two because the minors are more consistent if you can make them work (which you can with sword specs).

In tournaments people generally won’t take Blinding Powder (selfish utility) or Sin Signet, especially on S/P where more initiative and more teleports are always useful. Side Strike is not ideal since S/P is not S/D or dagger.

My overall point is that the developers’ approach to this is both short-sighted and incoherent. You can take Mesmer Vigor one of two ways: either it’s the fact that it’s too easy to access, or it’s that the Vigor itself is too strong.

If it’s the former, the solution is to move Mesmer Vigor to a higher minor trait. The latter is nonsensical, though, because, as I’ve demonstrated, high Vigor uptime is very common across all kinds of competitive specs. To single out the Mesmer and the Guardian is batting at low-hanging fruit in lieu of a far more holistic and comprehensive approach that’d achieve what the game truly needs.

Mes gsword does decent splash damage. No class should have it all.

Maugetarr.6823:

Well I’m not going to argue in favor of the warrior, but in this build that you linked it does in fact take 2 traits (neither in a power line) and a specific heal to maintain the level of vigor as the current 5 point minor trait which lies in a precision/crit line.

Oh, You so did just argue in favor of the warrior! Finally, some love! Fanfare! Adoring minions!!!

On topic: Nerf Mesmer! …but maybe also give them something more to do in a zerg.

I would suggest actually giving them an additional weapon (main hand pistol?) and loading it up with zerg vs zerg goodness. Maybe an auto-attack that bounces around the enemy zerg at random and creates a clone at the final hit. A second skill that does an AoE hit in a conical projection with a cripple and a confusion stack or two (think shotgun). A third skill that does something phantastic… O_o

Stand The Wall.6987:

Mes gsword does decent splash damage. No class should have it all.

it doesnt really. i play gs mes in zergs and it mostly hits 1 target. u are lucky if it hits 2-3 targets.
and there is a difference between having it all aka warrior
and being a light armor class that sucks in raids because of lack of aoe.

most of our attacks are single target and small group fights based. so all the good traits and clones and all that are good, but in wvw most of it is terribad. at least my berserker hits once in a while, so i get to tag.

havoc.6814:

Maugetarr.6823:

Well I’m not going to argue in favor of the warrior, but in this build that you linked it does in fact take 2 traits (neither in a power line) and a specific heal to maintain the level of vigor as the current 5 point minor trait which lies in a precision/crit line.

Oh, You so did just argue in favor of the warrior! Finally, some love! Fanfare! Adoring minions!!!

On topic: Nerf Mesmer! …but maybe also give them something more to do in a zerg.

I would suggest actually giving them an additional weapon (main hand pistol?) and loading it up with zerg vs zerg goodness. Maybe an auto-attack that bounces around the enemy zerg at random and creates a clone at the final hit. A second skill that does an AoE hit in a conical projection with a cripple and a confusion stack or two (think shotgun). A third skill that does something phantastic… O_o

i dont mind the 1v1 being toned down in exchange for wvw buffs….i want a whip though for aoe dmg and a mainhand pistol just because dual pistol mes would be epic :-)))))

havoc.6814:

Maugetarr.6823:

Well I’m not going to argue in favor of the warrior, but in this build that you linked it does in fact take 2 traits (neither in a power line) and a specific heal to maintain the level of vigor as the current 5 point minor trait which lies in a precision/crit line.

Oh, You so did just argue in favor of the warrior! Finally, some love! Fanfare! Adoring minions!!!

On topic: Nerf Mesmer! …but maybe also give them something more to do in a zerg.

I would suggest actually giving them an additional weapon (main hand pistol?) and loading it up with zerg vs zerg goodness. Maybe an auto-attack that bounces around the enemy zerg at random and creates a clone at the final hit. A second skill that does an AoE hit in a conical projection with a cripple and a confusion stack or two (think shotgun). A third skill that does something phantastic… O_o

I didn’t. The sentence was worded oddly… my fault. I was arguing a thief point, but you had to follow his link to find that out.

shimmerless.4560:

Maugetarr.6823:

shimmerless.4560:

Maugetarr.6823:

Well I’m not going to argue in favor of the warrior, but in this build that you linked it does in fact take 2 traits (neither in a power line) and a specific heal to maintain the level of vigor as the current 5 point minor trait which lies in a precision/crit line.

Edit: As for viable? sort of? Power based thieves are highly dependent on high crit damage and usually hidden killer with dagger or executioner. With this set up you can use neither.

I’m not really sure what you meant by the edit, Executioner is preferred in all cases to Hidden Killer and sword is perfectly viable sans dagger main. Perhaps you’re speaking about low or entry-level play.

I was addressing the fact that your build does not use 30 in CS. In fact 5 points are left out, so maybe you linked the incorrect build? I tend to play D/D in every game mode so HK was worth mentioning (i.e: not sans dagger).

I also added the “Edit:” because I finished then had another thought and it’s polite to use it if you’re changing/adding something unless it’s just a misspelled word or 2.

You could put 10 more in to get Executioner, between Fluid Strikes and Lead Attacks I doubt there’d be much difference. I like splitting it between the two because the minors are more consistent if you can make them work (which you can with sword specs).

In tournaments people generally won’t take Blinding Powder (selfish utility) or Sin Signet, especially on S/P where more initiative and more teleports are always useful. Side Strike is not ideal since S/P is not S/D or dagger.

My overall point is that the developers’ approach to this is both short-sighted and incoherent. You can take Mesmer Vigor one of two ways: either it’s the fact that it’s too easy to access, or it’s that the Vigor itself is too strong.

If it’s the former, the solution is to move Mesmer Vigor to a higher minor trait. The latter is nonsensical, though, because, as I’ve demonstrated, high Vigor uptime is very common across all kinds of competitive specs. To single out the Mesmer and the Guardian is batting at low-hanging fruit in lieu of a far more holistic and comprehensive approach that’d achieve what the game truly needs.

They actually are being consistent though finally. They nerfed thief and engi vigor last patch and now they’re moving on to mesmer and guard. All the nerfs actually bother me though, but at least they’re being consistent about them after last patch. Tbh imo, this balance patch is just going to push more condis…. I actually doubt the nerf to healsig on war will do much either. It’s not healsig (alone), its healsig, adrenal health, and regen all combined. Sorry that’s off topic, but I too am displeased with the last 2 patches, the preview, and the general direction toward lower damage. I would rather they revert some of the previous nerfs than implement new ones.

(P.S: I take blinding powder because it can be used to save people from stomping as well. If I can’t get them up in that 4 second duration, they or I am probably dead anyway. You can also BPS and blinding powder for a 7 second stealth on top of your ally and the CD is shorter. It can also keep you alive in tight spots)

bwillb.2165:

Thieves say hi. Nerfed every patch yet still manage to make people cry every round

Yet, somehow they are still required for the Meta. Hmmm…..

Elementalists and Rangers wave at the Mesmer, while desperate wishing to be half as useful.

To the thief ranting above – thieves depend too much on stealth – till they redesign most of the class, the class is going to deserve constant nerfing. Stealth is broken, and has no place in a multiplayer game.

selan.8354:

all the nerfs have turned us into a 1v1 class only

Not only. And in a way, that’s actually fine with me. You need some class specializations, “Excels at 1v1” isn’t a bad one. Makes for good highwaymen and good anti-highwaymen. A bit like how stealth groups in RvR in DAoC played their own sub-game.

You mesmers should be happy that you are the best 1v1 class in the game. Yes, ANET could buff certain things about the Mesmer, but it would also require a nerf to your 1v1 skills. Can’t be great at everything. To me, it balances right now. Best 1v1. Worst group support.

selan.8354:

it doesnt really. i play gs mes in zergs and it mostly hits 1 target. u are lucky if it hits 2-3 targets.

thats because you are targeting someone not bunched up in the melee train. i feel you from an aa standpoint, being a necro. we have good utility and ds aoe. said observation has convinced me that mesmers need good aoe on utility bar.