Guild Wars 2

So we know lyssa runes are the go-to for many classes in organized tpvp play.

Stability and protection/retal on elite skill use make them extremely powerful, over the top when it comes to warrior and thieves.

This topic implies that the future adjustments end up being effective and bring the game towards a more balanced AND enjoyable environment for all.

1/ For warrior :

Let’s be real, warrior being primarely melee, without access to stealth NEEDS some brief access to protection. It consists of a window of opportunities, during which most plays should occur.

They have very good access to stability, however. This aspect should be untouched if the healing signet and hopefully later on zerker stance nerf end up being effective.

On the other hand, the full cleanse being on a 48 seconds cooldown when traited, as well as zerker stance, cleansing ire and healing signet, should be shaved.

2/ For thief :

They already have loads of evades and stealth. Being able to access stability and protection by themselves every 60 seconds is way, way over the top.

They shouldn’t be able to get stability, aegis and protection unless being monitored by a guardian, as an assassin type class, while still benefitting from fury and swiftness, especially when not traited into trickery.

Possible suggested changes :

- Remove aegis, stability and protection from lyssa proc.

- If the class elite skill is below a certain threshold (say 90 seconds), increase said cooldown to 90 seconds when using 6/6 Lyssa. Bigger elite cooldowns are untouched.

- Grant warrior protection and maybe stability on signet of rage, with unchanged duration.

Applications :

- Lyssa runes have now a 90 seconds threshold on use. They now grant regen, vigor, fury, might swiftness and retaliation for 5 seconds and cure all conditions on you (unchanged).

- Signet of rage, basilisk venom and all other elite skills have now a 90 seconds cooldown when using 6/6 lyssa (signet mastery doesn’t affect it for warrior).

- Signet of rage now grants 5 seconds of protection and stability. Opens up rune choices for warrior.

FUN IDEA :

Completely change lyssa’s effect :

- Using Lyssa transforms all condis on you into boons.
- Transforms all the boons on you into conditions.
- No threshold on elite cooldown.
NOTE : Warrior’s signet of rage boons would be applied after your current boons get converted and you’d still get protection/stability.

There you go, let’s discuss.

+1 on the fun idea
or anothe r possibility would be to just let lyssa runes convert all conditions into boons, tehy would still be strong but not as strogn as now and not be a #1 pick againbst every enemy lineup

Yeah let’s add another free source of Stability to warriors, they really need it.

Just remove Stability from them. Done.

Easiest nerf ever, and most importantly Stability as a whole needs a large-scale removal. It needs to be something each class maybe has one way to get, except maybe Guardians if they’re supposed to have it as a class boon.

Say Engineers get it from Throw Elixir B, that’s it.

KarsaiB.9475:

2/ For thief :

They already have loads of evades and stealth. Being able to access stability and protection by themselves every 60 seconds is way, way over the top.

They shouldn’t be able to get stability, aegis and protection unless being monitored by a guardian, as an assassin type class, while still benefitting from fury and swiftness, especially when not traited into trickery.

Basi Venom is already one of the worst elites in the game, and all of those “loads of evades and stealth” are offset by 1) the fact that we have the lowest base health (along with ele and guard) in the game, and 2) these are our only defensive mechanisms anyways. In order to make the elite good, we have to completely sacrifice our rune set. The net result is a very good elite, but one that also requires you to give up your rune set as well. I don’t see how this makes Lyssa OP in any way.

Did I just read a “Please nerf Lyssa Runes but buff Warriors”-Thread? It makes me chuckle a bit that every paragraph contains a stealth buff to Warriors.

Considering the popularity of Lyssa Runes there might indeed have to be a change. Cleansing all conditions is already powerful without gaining Aegis, Protection or Stability. I do like the idea of actually “converting” boons. Or just limit the number of conditions cleansed or don’t grant Aegis, Protection and Stability. However, Warriors do not need an extra treatment and the Sigil of Rage certainly should not grant Protection and Stability.

You haven’t read at all.

In case you haven’t understood, I’m talking a tpvp stand point. Warrior is probably the most op class of the game’s history in that regard.

It needs severe nerf to healing signet and berzerker stance. Have you played the old hundred blades frenzy warrior ? Lyssa is more than justified, it’s needed for the protection and stability it provides.

Arguably, the stability change I suggested is too much. Protection however, is not. Without teleports/stealth, warrior needs a way to get in as some point without getting melted, and not die in seconds. Also meaning that it wouldn’t be able to be “in” all the time, as it is right now, given healing signet. Warrior was in a pretty spot on place balance wise in the past, mainly because lyssa was providing this “window”, without making it a bulldozer.

Also, removing stab/protection from lyssa is a good way of nerfing pistolwhip/sword dagger thieves, that are MORE than fine in tpvp at the moment. They are as bad as warrior balance wise. A sword dagger thief can continuously dodge more than fifteen times in a row (tested and approved by my team mate Shh Shad Shh), evading all incoming damage for large amounts of time while still having a ridiculous larconist strike and auto attack damage. They can also port in and out at will and turn invincible once they pop their lyssa runes proc.

Btw, basilisk venom is really good elite.

Make it so that you don’t get spammed full of conditions by every auto-attack and I will stop using Lyssa Runes.

Do we have a deal?

That’s a whole other issue. Lyssa needs a change, as many other things in this game. For the sake of clarity, let’s only talk about lyssa on this thread.

lyssa is not even that great for thieves actually, ogre is way better but as long as condis and CCs fly around like crazy thieves are forced to use it

don’t nerf solution, nerf the problem (aka conditions) and people will stop using it…

besides, OP your argumentation about thieves is (sry to say it) kitten…thieves either have stealth or evades but not both, it is 2 different builds unlesss we are talking about 30/30/30/30/30 build with every weapon set available~

KarsaiB.9475:

You haven’t read at all.

…

Not sure if you meant me in particular. But I did read.
It also is pretty obvious that you are not talking about PvE.

You want Lyssa to be nerfed which indeed might be reasonable. I do agree.

You say that you want an enjoyable environment for everyone. However, it reads more like “For me vs. Thieves”. You state that those Runes are too strong on Thieves and Warriors. Yet, you want to nerf them for all classes but not for Warriors. Because Warriors would keep the status quo if Stability and Protection was added to the Signet of Rage.

Even if unintentional that appears to be pretty hypocritical to me. Especially since Warriors probably got the easiest access to Stability. They also have a very good assortment of defensive utilities which are suitable for offensive builds because they do not rely on specific stats. I personally just don’t see the need for even more Stability and the addition of Protection.

So… yes from me on the Lyssa change. No on the special treatment for Warriors.

they need a nerf ? they r good for soo many classes !

" may lyssa protect u " i think thats what all the ncp around all ways say . or something along those lines XD

I agree with your “fun” idea. Making the 6 rune bonus convert all conditions on the wearer to boons is far more fair than “cleanse all conditions, gain all boons.”

The runes would still be just as effective against conditions, but they wouldn’t give you the “I rock completely” effect unless you were really loaded with conditions.

Aw, and to think that Lyssa runes affords my poor necro the ability to get a stomp off…

i think they should leave lyssa alone … and they said they r making all the runes viable so if the new runes that they r working on r as good as they made them sound. they should fall right in place with lyssa , divinity and so on

KarsaiB.9475:

Without teleports/stealth, warrior needs a way to get in as some point without getting melted, and not die in seconds.

Warriors need ~nothing to do that. In fact, they get free slots as they don’t have to waste as many slots just to survive what others have to get around with utility skills.

Yes, you can die. Surprise. You can die fast. Surprise!
Only thing is, you still do it without a utility skill. Try using a stance or two, and you can easily get through.

KarsaiB.9475:

That’s a whole other issue. Lyssa needs a change, as many other things in this game. For the sake of clarity, let’s only talk about lyssa on this thread.

Point being, Lyssa Runes themselves were never OP and still aren’t.

Getting all boon for 6 seconds is nice, but not amazing, even with a 45 second cooldown. Thieves can steal that from Mesmers and it doesn’t turn them into killing machines either.

Getting a random boon when you heal is nice, but again, not amazing.

The reason why, and the only reason for their popularity, is for the full condition cleanse. The ability to cleanse everything has become a necessity in an environment where every node fight will have you spammed full of conditions within seconds.

Conditions being applied so generously, in AoE, is what is truly broken. And this has nothing to do with Lyssa runes. Fix condition spam and you automatically “fix” Lyssa runes in the process.

Lyssa Runes are essentially the sPvP version of -40% condition duration food which is becoming increasingly common.

Dee Jay.2460:

KarsaiB.9475:

That’s a whole other issue. Lyssa needs a change, as many other things in this game. For the sake of clarity, let’s only talk about lyssa on this thread.

Point being, Lyssa Runes themselves were never OP and still aren’t.

Getting all boon for 6 seconds is nice, but not amazing, even with a 45 second cooldown. Thieves can steal that from Mesmers and it doesn’t turn them into killing machines either.

Getting a random boon when you heal is nice, but again, not amazing.

The reason why, and the only reason for their popularity, is for the full condition cleanse. The ability to cleanse everything has become a necessity in an environment where every node fight will have you spammed full of conditions within seconds.

Conditions being applied so generously, in AoE, is what is truly broken. And this has nothing to do with Lyssa runes. Fix condition spam and you automatically “fix” Lyssa runes in the process.

Lyssa Runes are essentially the sPvP version of -40% condition duration food which is becoming increasingly common.

On the other hand, the amount of AOE condi is needed because of things like lyssa, zerker stance, automated response, diamond skin, a crap load of condi removal buffs on warriors since cleansing ire.
After next balance patch necros are going to be worse than before dhumfire(it will be pretty much impossible to get of reliable in tpvp atleast..) and people actully considered necros one of the weaker professions then, mainly cause of the bunker eles running crazy though but still!.

And yes karsaib is right, lyssa and warriors/thieves are quite broken in a op way in spvp (warriors being op everywhere) right now. I would just remove the stability/aegis or the condis>boons idea(really like that one)from lyssa and increase ICD to 90sec though

And for you guys who don’t know who karsaib is, he is a member of 55hp Monks which is one of the top tPvP teams in the world right now and plays warrior

I rather like KarsaiB’s idea for the Lyssa active, I think that’s probably what they should’ve been from the start.

@OP
This is by far the most entertaining “Nerf Lyssa’s” post to date. Lyssa’s needs a tiny shave on Warriors (who deserve access to protection despite their current insane level of sustain), but it’s crazy OP for thieves (because they have stealth, which if you’ll recall does not include any kind of damage mitigation). This synopsis is a good indicator that your understanding of the games mechanics and meta isn’t quite strong enough to go making changes to things.

On top of that, your “fun idea” that boons be turned into conditions on elite activation is just… there is no nice way to describe how bad an idea that is. No other rune set in the game penalizes you in that manner, and Lyssa’s strength is entirely based on the 6/6 effect (the other set bonuses are lackluster in comparison to other runesets) – not only are you advocating a nerf, you’re suggesting the 6/6 penalize people for having boons! In a team based game where many classes have ways to generate boons for their allies!

Vuh.1328:

And for you guys who don’t know who karsaib is, he is a member of 55hp Monks which is one of the top tPvP teams in the world right now and plays warrior

I’m fairly sure you didn’t need to point out he was a warrior (seeing as he feels warriors deserve protection, but it’s broken for thieves apparently). Top tPvP team in the world seems….suspect, considering his suggestions paint a picture of a player who does not appear to have a strong grasp of the games meta and mechanics, unless of course they pertain to buffing/minimizing nerfs for warrior.

Necros and Engineers with all that AoE conditions already strong enough even with Lyssa to provide some counter.

About Thieves, Lyssa become very strong because the profession itself already OP.

i run lyssa runs on my thief i mean they r nice . but i would rather have travel runes right now +10 boon duration +10 condition damage + 25% movement speed . which would let me open a utility
… what class r lyssa runes not good on !
i think they r balanced
i want them for my guard

evilapprentice.6379:

On top of that, your “fun idea” that boons be turned into conditions on elite activation is just… there is no nice way to describe how bad an idea that is. No other rune set in the game penalizes you in that manner, and Lyssa’s strength is entirely based on the 6/6 effect (the other set bonuses are lackluster in comparison to other runesets) – not only are you advocating a nerf, you’re suggesting the 6/6 penalize people for having boons! In a team based game where many classes have ways to generate boons for their allies!

Might want to re-read what was written, since you have it backwards. He advocates the 6 rune bonus to convert conditions to boons, not the other way around. You keep the full condition clear, but the boons you get aren’t totally overwhelming in power.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

evilapprentice.6379:

On top of that, your “fun idea” that boons be turned into conditions on elite activation is just… there is no nice way to describe how bad an idea that is. No other rune set in the game penalizes you in that manner, and Lyssa’s strength is entirely based on the 6/6 effect (the other set bonuses are lackluster in comparison to other runesets) – not only are you advocating a nerf, you’re suggesting the 6/6 penalize people for having boons! In a team based game where many classes have ways to generate boons for their allies!

Might want to re-read what was written, since you have it backwards. He advocates the 6 rune bonus to convert conditions to boons, not the other way around. You keep the full condition clear, but the boons you get aren’t totally overwhelming in power.

Directly quoted, bold added to pertinent sections but otherwise unedited.

KarsaiB.9475:

FUN IDEA :

Completely change lyssa’s effect :

- Using Lyssa transforms all condis on you into boons.
- Transforms all the boons on you into conditions.
- No threshold on elite cooldown.
NOTE : Warrior’s signet of rage boons would be applied after your current boons get converted and you’d still get protection/stability.

There you go, let’s discuss.

what class r u playing that makes u think lyssa is op !
the boons r more deffinsive than power . the only real damage increase is from the boon furry .
i can’t think of a class i would not run it on … there may be better rune choises for your build but i can’t think of a class that can’t make good use of it !
lets just make lyssa under powered like most of the runes ! instead of leaving it viable for everyone lol ?!?!?!?!?

evilapprentice.6379:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

evilapprentice.6379:

On top of that, your “fun idea” that boons be turned into conditions on elite activation is just… there is no nice way to describe how bad an idea that is. No other rune set in the game penalizes you in that manner, and Lyssa’s strength is entirely based on the 6/6 effect (the other set bonuses are lackluster in comparison to other runesets) – not only are you advocating a nerf, you’re suggesting the 6/6 penalize people for having boons! In a team based game where many classes have ways to generate boons for their allies!

Might want to re-read what was written, since you have it backwards. He advocates the 6 rune bonus to convert conditions to boons, not the other way around. You keep the full condition clear, but the boons you get aren’t totally overwhelming in power.

Directly quoted, bold added to pertinent sections but otherwise unedited.

KarsaiB.9475:

FUN IDEA :

Completely change lyssa’s effect :

- Using Lyssa transforms all condis on you into boons.
- Transforms all the boons on you into conditions.
- No threshold on elite cooldown.
NOTE : Warrior’s signet of rage boons would be applied after your current boons get converted and you’d still get protection/stability.

There you go, let’s discuss.

I guess I failed at the reading there.

Still, would you, perhaps, be in favor of the 6 rune bonus converting all conditions on you into boons as a change?

y it is not op ?
most r defensive boons !
they r making all the runes better . y make this under powered when they r making every rune viable .
y nerf a rune that is viable for every class !

y it is not op ?
most r defensive boons !
they r making all the runes better . y make this under powered when they r making every rune viable .
y nerf a rune that is viable for every class !

and thats what we call powercreep. and no it’s not ok, lyssa is by far the most powerfull rune available in pvp and only good on some elite skills. in fact it is so powerfull that most people would run an elite skill that doesnt do anything but in turn has no casttime and 45 seconds cooldown(in fact that skill would be one of the strongest elite skills in the game) or if you would get a grandmaster trait that had the same effect as the (6) lyssa proc everybody would run that trait.

You cannot make changes to the function of a rune on just one class, I’m not even sure the game engine allows for that. The simplest fix would be to have it only do one of the current effects, either a cleanse or all of the boons. Give one effect to Lyssa, and the other to a rune set that has a useless 6/6 bonus (Fighter Runes maybe, because lol to 1 stack of might on heal).

I also don’t like how I feel forced into taking them but as a Warrior and with conditions being as strong as they are the cleanse is way more useful to me then the boons. I tried NOT using them in PvP for a while and even with Zerker Stance and Cleansing Ire conditions can just overwhelm you.

Also, as a Warrior I don’t want Protection. That boon is what separates Warriors from Guardians. They sustain themselves with boons while we have more health and regen. getting 5 seconds of it every 48-60 seconds isn’t a big deal but I don’t really NEED it, more of a side perk. It would probably be a decent Warrior nerf without having to directly nerf anything on the class itself. I’d still probably take the cleanse although that all depends on how big of a hit condis take in the near future.

The Lyssa Runeset 6 piece bonus is better than most elite skills! That’s a problem!

First things first: Lyssa runes need a minimum 90 second cooldown.

Secondly, removing all conditions and granting all boons is too strong. Converting all conditions into boons is still too powerful.
A better combination would be:

Upon activation of an elite ability, removes all conditions and grants 3 random boons (3 second duration).

KarsaiB.9475:

2/ For thief :
They already have loads of evades and stealth. Being able to access stability and protection by themselves every 60 seconds is way, way over the top.

You realize that one steal from a mesmer and they get all boons right?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Consume_Plasma

I think the only thing that should be changed will lyssa is the protection.

Beyond that, more runes should provide alternate solutions for dealing with highly spread condi burst, without sacrificing viability in other areas. Clearly protection is no use in condi match ups anyway, and in direct d match ups protection can encourage the pure faceroll people find un-fun.

Edit: that said the idea of condition conversion is nice Karsaib, so +1!

Not sure about the boon conversion though.. It’d be ok for thieves as they will proc it before the steal, but on wars would it negate SoR?

Plus it would absolutely kitten dps guards!! ><

corrupt boons the necromancer skill will make a fool of anyone running lyssa !
it is 5 secs of boons it is not that tough to deal with and skills like arcane thievery the mesmer skill r really fun to use vs some one with lyssa XD

Phaeton.9582:

Beyond that, more runes should provide alternate solutions for dealing with highly spread condi burst, without sacrificing viability in other areas.

If they don’t sacrifice anything, they’re factually superior. Just saying.

You realize there is a big rune rework coming soon?
These runes are just as strong as soldier, scholar, melandru and others. Probably weaker because most important part of them is the 6er effect.

caveman.5840:

corrupt boons the necromancer skill will make a fool of anyone running lyssa !

Yeah, no not really.

Carighan.6758:

Phaeton.9582:

Beyond that, more runes should provide alternate solutions for dealing with highly spread condi burst, without sacrificing viability in other areas.

If they don’t sacrifice anything, they’re factually superior. Just saying.

Lyssa runes sacrifice alot.
Precision is a very low value stat for direct damage (where you see Lyssa’s the most on War/Thief) they’d almost always gain much much more from power.
10% condition duration is nigh worthless
a random boon on heal is just that – random. You can’t rely on RNG, so it’s not something you want to count on for competitive matches.

The only strong effect on Lyssa’s is the 6 piece – compare that to say Ogre, where every single set bonus is strong And 5/6 of these good bonuses have 100% uptime, as compared to Lyssa’s strong effect with 5 second uptime.

caveman.5840:

corrupt boons the necromancer skill will make a fool of anyone running lyssa !

Well, it doesn’t exactly since it only converts 5 boons into conditions while there’s 9 boons total.

I think that Lyssa runes are fine for the sole reason that they are accessible to anyone.
I agree that SOME runesets are way better than others (namely, Lyssa, Soldier, Ogre, Scholar, Forge, Nightmare), but this does not mean that they must be nerfed.
For istance, I think that they should buff other runesets to match lyssa, as some provide bonuses which are laughable at best (Poison Nova on down? trolololol)

Chaba.5410:

caveman.5840:

corrupt boons the necromancer skill will make a fool of anyone running lyssa !

Well, it doesn’t exactly since it only converts 5 boons into conditions while there’s 9 boons total.

it does a good job at it because after they use there elite u can load them up with more conditions . unless they have more condition cleans traited .
it is by no means a insta kill but u totally took the wind out there sails XD

u have well of corruption to
and if they change the blind swap on fury to a better condition would be nice

This runeset is just fine and does not need any boosts or nerfs. It is one of the very few sets that is actually balanced and has been for a long time. Its only drawback is that it is far more usefull on some classes/builds then others due to the timing of the 6 piece bonus, but on the builds where this is not optimal, do you not have other runesets that are ?

The only runeset that I see as grossly imbalanced in the game at the moment is perplexity, that needs a nerf. A serious one even in its already bit nerfed state.

Tongku.5326:

The only runeset that I see as grossly imbalanced in the game at the moment is perplexity, that needs a nerf. A serious one even in its already bit nerfed state.

This is pretty much just an spvp discussion dude, no doubt you have a fair point about perplexity though. Still good to flag that as a set not to send across with the balance pass.

lyssa is not op .
i can’t even tell u how many times i wish i had a rune set better than lyssa lol it is just a useful balanced good rune sets and a lot of other runes #6 need to be kicked up some and may be even decrease cool down times on a lot of the runes

I made that fun idea (without the negative effect) a long time ago but I don’t feel like necro posting it :/

It’s really the fact that its a amazing condition removal AND a great access to stability protection vigor and Aegis ALL in ONE thats ridiculous by itself. And even more so on LOW CD elites.

what needs to be done are 3 things
1) keep the rune viable for all class’s.
2) nerf the rune so class’s with short cd elites cant dominate with it.
3) keep the rune somewhat lore friendly (its Lyssa we talking about. The GODDESS of RNG!!!!!…and butterflies)

So making it so it will simply convert any condition on you in to a boon would be a perfect solution to balancing this rune.

It should remove the access to stability (can’t activate any elite I know of when you have fear) and really nullify the consistent access to boons.
Overall very strong when you get condition ganked. Not so much when the opposite is true. Takes the consistency away and makes it tactical.

Plague and possibly tornado are the only instant-cast elites I know of. Both give Stability anyway.