Guild Wars 2

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

2) Like what? Again, this is something only FEW classes have and even then, again limited in duration Some classes have blocks, Mesmer has Scepter #2 and a sword block, Engi has shield that stuns, Ele has shield that can stun dunno about warrior, guardian or Ranger – Necro has NONE of these.

I find this bit hilariously amusing. On my thief, no matter what build I’m running, I find a condition necromancer to be one of the most difficult things to deal with.

1) Your second list isn’t preventing though, it’s primarily wasting or overpowering. You don’t prevent protection by doing more damage, that’s compensating
2) Stability is a prevention then, not a counter
3) Prevention is superior to a counter, at least for stealth.
Besides all that, I admit my fault and that what I said are more prevention than countering

More on to the topic
Giving us reveal is going to hurt thieves a lot. Although it’s not our only survival mechanic, it is tied with survival. We don’t have anything that reduces damage on us. No boons, no blocks. All our surviving revolves around 1 thing: Avoiding damage. Blinding, dodging, shadowstepping out of range. Stealth helps with this since it lowers the chances you’ll hit correct. But unlike other classes, if we ARE hit, we are hit with full damage. This is the big trade-off we have for our mechanic. We die if we’re caught.

Hard counters will have to be compensated though: Higher vigor, lower cooldown on shadowstep are the ones that are more mechanic based, otherwise we’ll need things like protection boons that lower the damage we get or more condi clearing since the biggest condi clear we have is stealth based. Preventive tips that I gave are just a matter of skills and thus don’t need compensation from arenanet.

The only “counter” I’ve read up to now that I can agree with, is corrupting boons but it has some intrinsic problems. If the enemy only has 1 boon (in case of thief, we hardly ever have more than 2 boons) it’ll be so easy to rip their stealth from them. I mean AoE targetting a place to rip boons is very easy if you know how stealthed ppl usually work around. I for example hit a stealthed target 8 out of 10 times with c&d (thief stealth skill on dagger offhand) which has a very very small range both in length and width. This has to be compensated.

One compensation I can think of immedaitely right now would be to change Last refuge (a trait most thieves don’t like or at least don’t care for since it’s a minor) to give boon on LEAVING stealth. So even if we lose our stealth, we at least have something to get instead.

Gwalchgwn.1659:

1) Your second list isn’t preventing though, it’s primarily wasting or overpowering. You don’t prevent protection by doing more damage, that’s compensating
2) Stability is a prevention then, not a counter
3) Prevention is superior to a counter, at least for stealth.
Besides all that, I admit my fault and that what I said are more prevention than countering

More on to the topic
Giving us reveal is going to hurt thieves a lot. Although it’s not our only survival mechanic, it is tied with survival. We don’t have anything that reduces damage on us. No boons, no blocks. All our surviving revolves around 1 thing: Avoiding damage. Blinding, dodging, shadowstepping out of range. Stealth helps with this since it lowers the chances you’ll hit correct. But unlike other classes, if we ARE hit, we are hit with full damage. This is the big trade-off we have for our mechanic. We die if we’re caught.

Hard counters will have to be compensated though: Higher vigor, lower cooldown on shadowstep are the ones that are more mechanic based, otherwise we’ll need things like protection boons that lower the damage we get or more condi clearing since the biggest condi clear we have is stealth based. Preventive tips that I gave are just a matter of skills and thus don’t need compensation from arenanet.

The only “counter” I’ve read up to now that I can agree with, is corrupting boons but it has some intrinsic problems. If the enemy only has 1 boon (in case of thief, we hardly ever have more than 2 boons) it’ll be so easy to rip their stealth from them. I mean AoE targetting a place to rip boons is very easy if you know how stealthed ppl usually work around. I for example hit a stealthed target 8 out of 10 times with c&d (thief stealth skill on dagger offhand) which has a very very small range both in length and width. This has to be compensated.

One compensation I can think of immedaitely right now would be to change Last refuge (a trait most thieves don’t like or at least don’t care for since it’s a minor) to give boon on LEAVING stealth. So even if we lose our stealth, we at least have something to get instead.

Thief would not be losing their stealth mechanic, it would remain the way it is now. With the exception that more classes have the options (via traits or utilities) to bring thief out stealth. The only thing that changes is that the thief player would have be more aware and cautious of when and how they use stealth. Meaning you would have to adjust your tactics accordingly.

I can’t stress enough how counterplay is needed to keep the competitive scene healthy.

Shufflepants.9785:

I find this bit hilariously amusing. On my thief, no matter what build I’m running, I find a condition necromancer to be one of the most difficult things to deal with.

So because YOU find it hard to kill them, it means they are strong? Overpowered? Quite easy to kill any sort of Necromancer – Just bring CC and plenty of it. If that fails just use Stealth and repeat the process of BS, spamming HS and then jumping back into stealth. They WILL die, that is of course you are an up leveled player.

Stillshade.7634:

Why are you so against a nerf to stealth? It is not the sole identifier of the thief class. It is not what makes a thief unique. Yes thieves have the most access to it. And yes it is broken as kitten which this thread is trying to address by finding a way to make it more reactive with the rest of the game.

It may not be “the sole identifier” since other classes have it. It may not make them “unique”. But you are failing to realize just how many abilities and builds are tied to it.

Stealth is the only way for a thief to effectively clear conditions with the trait: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow%27s_Embrace

Without it, the only ways we have to clear conditions are:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Return (infiltrators return)
Only on the sword and essentially costs 5 initiative to cure ONE condition.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Return_
Removes three conditions, which is decent, but it’s on a 50 second cooldown and is primarily used as a stun break. If we use it just to cure some conditions, there goes our stun break.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Agility
Although it talks about curing one for each ally, that’s one condition on each ally. It only cures ONE condition on the thief and has a 30 sec cooldown.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fleet_of_Foot
Hardly counts as a condition cure as it only removes cripple and weakness. Neither of these are one of the 5 damaging conditions.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pain_Response
This one isn’t too bad because it can remove 3 conditions that are damaging, but only 3 specific ones. It won’t do anything to torment or confusion, and it has a 30s cooldown.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Withdraw
Hardly counts again, as it only removes non-damaging conditions.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hide_in_Shadows
Is fairly decent, but like Pain Response, only handles burning, poison, and bleeding.

Besides this very important stealth based trait to remove conditions, lets look at the absolute plethora of traits tied to stealth:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hidden_Killer
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Meld_with_Shadows
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hidden_Assassin
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Protector
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infusion_of_Shadow
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cloaked_in_Shadow
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hidden_Thief
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Patience
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow%27s_Rejuvenation
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fleet_Shadow
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Merciful_Ambush
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Instinctual_Response
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Last_Refuge

Then there’s the fact that our biggest burst comes from attacks while stealthed:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Backstab
Without that, I think our biggest possible burst is maybe
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pistol_Whip
But no one but idiots stand in that for its full duration.

Then, lets remember that it is our primary ability used to not die.
Thieves have ZERO access to Aegis and Protection. We have only one ability that gives us stability, and it’s tied to an elite that is quite situational. We have a couple traits that improve dodges, but very little access to vigor. And we also have ZERO access to total damage immunity or immunity to conditions. You might think we have a lot of dodges built into our weapon skills, but the vast majority of these are extremely short duration and do not even cover the full animation for the skill. Thieves are also among the lowest base health, and just the middle of the pack for armor. And we can’t really spend much to improve those. If we build toughness and vitality, our attacks hit like wet noodles and we still die fairly easily.

Stealth is huge part of most thief builds. Significantly nerfing stealth would significantly kitten the class. What if we gave other classes a way to instantly kill all of a ranger’s equipped pets, what if we made a counter that instantly drained all of a necros life force, what if we gave people a way to prevent a guardian from gaining aegis for 10 sec, or prevented a mesmer from making any phantasms. It would have a similar effect.

Making any significant nerf to stealth would have to come with some significant buffs in several other areas and would basically require almost a complete class redesign. But then, people are asking for hard counters to stealth. And even assuming stealth is a problem, hard counters are not the way to go. Hard counters just lead to balancing arms races. One class gets a hard counter, the others need a hard counter to that hard counter, and so forth. Perhaps stealth could use one more soft counter, but it already has quite a few of them, it’s just that people refuse to learn how. But nobody has proposed a good soft counter that I’ve seen.

ITT: Players serious about introducing more hard counters, and balancing for WvW.

Stealth mechanics only seem overpowered when players don’t know how to deal with them. Learn more, complain less.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Shufflepants.9785:

I find this bit hilariously amusing. On my thief, no matter what build I’m running, I find a condition necromancer to be one of the most difficult things to deal with.

So because YOU find it hard to kill them, it means they are strong? Overpowered? Quite easy to kill any sort of Necromancer – Just bring CC and plenty of it. If that fails just use Stealth and repeat the process of BS, spamming HS and then jumping back into stealth. They WILL die, that is of course you are an up leveled player.

They are strong, yes. Overpowered? No, I never said that. I just said that they are difficult for thieves to deal with, as in, they are one of the more challenging class/builds to 1v1 as a thief. Because they take a long time to kill with their two large health bars, and that is a long time for a lot of conditions to tick. Being revealed for 3-4 seconds is plenty of time for them to load up a lot of conditions, and against a decent necromancer those backstabs to restealth are hard to land between the fears and dodges. And I’m not sure if you’re aware of this, but a backstab thief cannot bring “CC and plenty of it”. They might have basilisk venom, but that’s about it.

Sounds to me like the situation is that you are not the best necromancer and just because you aren’t good at killing thieves, you think necromancers in general aren’t.

Maesk.8753:

Aza.2105:

The moment Anet introduces a predator for stealth is the moment the thief population will be culled.

Maybe because that would actually destroy the class. I’m not sure if you’re aware of this or not, but a large majority of thieves sustain/utility comes from stealth. By reducing the thieves ability to stealth, you’re also reducing their access to almost everything.

As for a ‘counter’, I personally think that’s a little unfair, no? Currently there are no other classes which have their defining class feature countered by a single skill (sic’em). Can I get a skill that destroys all clones/pets in an AOE around me?

There is really no arguing that stealth is broken in its current state.

You shouldn’t be able to stealth so frequently. Keep the weapon skills/combo fields that give stealth, but make revealed last 5-10 seconds at minimum. Either that, or take away/greatly nerf the weapon skills/combo fields that give stealth. The duration of stealth that skills like shadow refuge give you isn’t even the problem with stealth. It’s the fact that it can be used so frequently, making it so you are invisible 90% of the time. I’m not even mad that a thief can stealth for 20 seconds and run away, because it ends the fight for both of us. Nobody dies. Great. The frequency is the problem, not the duration.

How about nerfing stealth in favor of . . . speed. Give thieves some additional speed in combat so that they can dart around and remain slippery. Have speed provide some additional perks, or have skills that give them temporary speed boosts. This would allow them to remain thievey without an over reliance on the somewhat broken stealth mechanic.

Bunda.2691:

How about nerfing stealth in favor of . . . speed. Give thieves some additional speed in combat so that they can dart around and remain slippery. Have speed provide some additional perks, or have skills that give them temporary speed boosts. This would allow them to remain thievey without an over reliance on the somewhat broken stealth mechanic.

Shadow shot, infiltrators strike, withdraw, shadow step/shadow return, infiltrators signet, shadow trap, and heartseeker all give the thief ways to flash around the map and that is already annoying enough.

Spicyhash.7605:

Bunda.2691:

How about nerfing stealth in favor of . . . speed. Give thieves some additional speed in combat so that they can dart around and remain slippery. Have speed provide some additional perks, or have skills that give them temporary speed boosts. This would allow them to remain thievey without an over reliance on the somewhat broken stealth mechanic.

Shadow shot, infiltrators strike, withdraw, shadow step/shadow return, infiltrators signet, shadow trap, and heartseeker all give the thief ways to flash around the map and that is already annoying enough.

So what? Speed and stealth kind of accomplish the same thing, but at least with speed you can be more aware of where the thief is. And i suggested limiting it to in combat as well as to not turn them into an overpowered scout.

Bunda.2691:

Spicyhash.7605:

Bunda.2691:

How about nerfing stealth in favor of . . . speed. Give thieves some additional speed in combat so that they can dart around and remain slippery. Have speed provide some additional perks, or have skills that give them temporary speed boosts. This would allow them to remain thievey without an over reliance on the somewhat broken stealth mechanic.

Shadow shot, infiltrators strike, withdraw, shadow step/shadow return, infiltrators signet, shadow trap, and heartseeker all give the thief ways to flash around the map and that is already annoying enough.

So what? Speed and stealth kind of accomplish the same thing, but at least with speed you can be more aware of where the thief is. And i suggested limiting it to in combat as well as to not turn them into an overpowered scout.

So despite all the skills that they have access to to get around quickly and easily you want MORE!?

I’m just offering an alternative to stealth. And because stealth is so powerful, the alternative has to be powerful as well. But ask yourself, which would you prefer they had when fighting a thief: speed or stealth? I think we all know the answer.

Bunda.2691:

I’m just offering an alternative to stealth. And because stealth is so powerful, the alternative has to be powerful as well. But ask yourself, which would you prefer they had when fighting a thief: speed or stealth? I think we all know the answer.

Thieves are already capable of having high speed and they have access to teleports.

Bunda.2691:

I’m just offering an alternative to stealth. And because stealth is so powerful, the alternative has to be powerful as well. But ask yourself, which would you prefer they had when fighting a thief: speed or stealth? I think we all know the answer.

Its simple – remove the leap finisher on HS and go from there. Rather than doing huge changes they should be tweaking it every patch rather than using 1 patch to try and change everything.

I think the problem with Thief’s stealth is that even if you hit them while they are stealthed there is no feedback that you did. Even if you hit a stealthed thief, you don’t know you did unless you are using certain very specific skill types. That is what makes fighting a stealthed enemy so boring if you ask me. Even if you guess the enemy’s location perfectly there is no indication you are guessing correctly until they pop out of stealth because they are downed and can’t stealth again. If you look at something like the TF2 spy, they are completely invisible as well but if you shoot one you’ll still see blood and have a general idea where the spy is.

I think hitting a stealthed thief with any skill that deals direct damage should let you see the damage numbers for the skill that hit. This is not revealing the thief, as it would be unfair to allow enemies to deny a thief the chance to use his/her stealth skills so easily, just showing numbers to give an enemy a general idea of the thief’s location.

You already have certain skill types that show where a stealthed enemy is, Traps, Marks and Chain Attacks, I’m saying extend that to more skills that deal direct damage. This should help dispel the idea that thieves take no damage while in stealth and make heavy AoE more of a counter to stealth as you at least have a general idea of where the thief is while they are in stealth. You’d still be unable to directly target the thief, and the thief would still be able to use their stealth skills on you but it would make fighting someone in stealth a lot more fun IMO.

Aza.2105:

Thief would not be losing their stealth mechanic, it would remain the way it is now. With the exception that more classes have the options (via traits or utilities) to bring thief out stealth. The only thing that changes is that the thief player would have be more aware and cautious of when and how they use stealth. Meaning you would have to adjust your tactics accordingly.

I can’t stress enough how counterplay is needed to keep the competitive scene healthy.

Right now, in any match where the thief is forced to stay and continue the fight, having hard counters to stealth against any stealth-heavy builds (heck, even to my own build that is a low-stealth build) will be a major hindrance. Introducing a hard counter that isn’t preventive without compensating it, will be a major nerf to those builds.

I’m not asking for “no counterplay”, I’m asking for a fitting compensation to keep the thief competitive. We already don’t have a lot of place in PvP (real pvp, not hotjoin griefers) because of us dying so fast when trying to protect a node while being bombed. Just like how killing a mesmer clones is a “tactic”, their destruction still give you conditions. Being able to remove stealth should be used with care and not just because you didn’t like him being stealthed.

In WvW, stealth classes are dominating in roaming and skirmishes however they are at a disadvantage during large zerg vs zerg.

Stealth is somewhat held in check in tPVP conquest mode because of it’s limitation of not being able to cap points while stealthed. That’s a huge disadvantage.

In hotjoins which is a broken mess that’s all about killing stuff here and there and capping points is not a big deal anyway, mesmers and thieves run rampant not only because of the ability to engage and disengage fights very easily through the use of stealth. But also griefing players through the burden of losing targets which stealth.

The moment a non-conquest mode type of PVP is introduced to the game, that’s a totally different story about stealth without some sort of hard counters for it available for all classes.

What we need are at least 1 or 2 skills for each class that would reveal stealthed characters (whether in a target area, around the caster) and/or apply the Reveal Debuff like Sic’em.

this post was made by one of the best thieves out there
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Backstab-1/page/2#post3235603

Cynz.9437:

this post was made by one of the best thieves out there
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Backstab-1/page/2#post3235603

Isn’t that guy an elementalist? …

Gwalchgwn.1659:

Cynz.9437:

this post was made by one of the best thieves out there
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Backstab-1/page/2#post3235603

Isn’t that guy an elementalist? …

Caed? no

Snare or interrupt before they enter stealth, anticipate movements. Anticipating can only be done by learning to play. Pay attention and study your foes.

Cynz.9437:

Gwalchgwn.1659:

Cynz.9437:

this post was made by one of the best thieves out there
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Backstab-1/page/2#post3235603

Isn’t that guy an elementalist? …

Caed? no

Your link goes to a guy called silvermember for me

Gwalchgwn.1659:

Cynz.9437:

Gwalchgwn.1659:

Cynz.9437:

this post was made by one of the best thieves out there
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Backstab-1/page/2#post3235603

Isn’t that guy an elementalist? …

Caed? no

Your link goes to a guy called silvermember for me

Look one higher up, Narcarsis is Caed (See signature)

Ye I know who Caed is, but when I checked I got to a guy called silvermember. Hence the confusion cause he was opting for a thief nerf :P

You guys realize that, in the linked thread, the silvermember dude has a better grasp on what balance is than anyone else yammering, right?

stale.9785:

You guys realize that, in the linked thread, the silvermember dude has a better grasp on what balance is than anyone else yammering, right?

Indeed, to me this Caed dude looks more like an elitist jerk as the linked post has no constructive value whatsoever. Silvermember on the other hand provides a very good synopsis on what is actually wrong with the thief at present time.

Rather Caed is intelligent enough to realize when people are beyond reason or meaningful discussion and instead used the opportunity for comedy. As a guard main thief 2nd I agree with his sentiment.

More 2 cents.

Many of the stealth supporters here seem to postulate that perma stealth is not a huge advantage that can be countered easily once people learn to play.

On a separate note, I think most people will agree that Rangers could use a little love in some other build diversity.

I am not going to agree or disagree only postulate this:

I think we should give rangers access to perma stealth. It seems fair right? It’s not that big of an advantage once one learns to play, it also makes sense for a scout to disappear into the wilderness. They already have some stealth with hunters shot.

Would anyone change their opinions of perma-stealth if rangers had access to it?

Watch here , if you want real way out of permastealth d/p

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Thief-Black-Powder/first#post3510479

I had a thought that could fix the main problem with stealth (not seeing your opponent), while at the same time keeping the power of thieves and everything intact. When we hit something in stealth, SHOW US NUMBERS. That way we know the general location they’re at, and it can also help give the players against stealth more of a head’s up on where the person in stealth is at. Conditions would especially work for this. Before I see thieves complaining that it will completely destroy the idea of stealth due to conditions doing constant numbers, let me remind you…Shadow’s Embrace.

Shadowfall.6543:

More 2 cents.

Many of the stealth supporters here seem to postulate that perma stealth is not a huge advantage that can be countered easily once people learn to play.

On a separate note, I think most people will agree that Rangers could use a little love in some other build diversity.

I am not going to agree or disagree only postulate this:

I think we should give rangers access to perma stealth. It seems fair right? It’s not that big of an advantage once one learns to play, it also makes sense for a scout to disappear into the wilderness. They already have some stealth with hunters shot.

Would anyone change their opinions of perma-stealth if rangers had access to it?

If stealth and evasion were the only viable survival mechanisms for Rangers, then no, I would not. Just be sure to remove their spirits, any and all damage/CC transference to pets, and any passive health regeneration outside of stealth. Oh, and be sure to limit their CC/condition output by making their traps identical to Thief traps.

It seems fair right?

Imagi.4561:

Shadowfall.6543:

More 2 cents.

Many of the stealth supporters here seem to postulate that perma stealth is not a huge advantage that can be countered easily once people learn to play.

On a separate note, I think most people will agree that Rangers could use a little love in some other build diversity.

I am not going to agree or disagree only postulate this:

I think we should give rangers access to perma stealth. It seems fair right? It’s not that big of an advantage once one learns to play, it also makes sense for a scout to disappear into the wilderness. They already have some stealth with hunters shot.

Would anyone change their opinions of perma-stealth if rangers had access to it?

If stealth and evasion were the only viable survival mechanisms for Rangers, then no, I would not. Just be sure to remove their spirits, any and all damage/CC transference to pets, and any passive health regeneration outside of stealth. Oh, and be sure to limit their CC/condition output by making their traps identical to Thief traps.

It seems fair right?

Yeah & give the damage output & mobility of a thief to the ranger too

RyuDragnier.9476:

I had a thought that could fix the main problem with stealth (not seeing your opponent), while at the same time keeping the power of thieves and everything intact. When we hit something in stealth, SHOW US NUMBERS. That way we know the general location they’re at, and it can also help give the players against stealth more of a head’s up on where the person in stealth is at. Conditions would especially work for this. Before I see thieves complaining that it will completely destroy the idea of stealth due to conditions doing constant numbers, let me remind you…Shadow’s Embrace.

Shadow’s Embrace only removes one condition every 3 seconds. Almost every class can apply conditions faster than that, and there are a variety of methods of condition application that don’t need a target (see: wells, grenades, bombs, traps).

Sasajoe.1509:

Imagi.4561:

Shadowfall.6543:

More 2 cents.

Many of the stealth supporters here seem to postulate that perma stealth is not a huge advantage that can be countered easily once people learn to play.

On a separate note, I think most people will agree that Rangers could use a little love in some other build diversity.

I am not going to agree or disagree only postulate this:

I think we should give rangers access to perma stealth. It seems fair right? It’s not that big of an advantage once one learns to play, it also makes sense for a scout to disappear into the wilderness. They already have some stealth with hunters shot.

Would anyone change their opinions of perma-stealth if rangers had access to it?

If stealth and evasion were the only viable survival mechanisms for Rangers, then no, I would not. Just be sure to remove their spirits, any and all damage/CC transference to pets, and any passive health regeneration outside of stealth. Oh, and be sure to limit their CC/condition output by making their traps identical to Thief traps.

It seems fair right?

Yeah & give the damage output & mobility of a thief to the ranger too

Please do, and then we can bump them down to the lowest health tier as well.

Necro’d like a true necromancer. I feel this thread is still relevant, and should be kept alive.

I should go get a bunch of likeminded people to report this thread, since this is another thread where every inexperienced player wants an “I win button” for a whole profession.

ITT: Thief mains that dont want to accept that stealth is a broken mechanic.

The problems with stealth:
- its an offensive ability
- its a defensive ability
- its an escape ability
- its an engage ability

These on their own are, arguably, ok, it is after all a core class mechanic. However, the fact that it is spammable and accessed by a class with a huge about of mobility, pushes it way beyond balanced into broken territory.

Poplolita.2638:

Necro’d like a true necromancer. I feel this thread is still relevant, and should be kept alive.

I’m sorry to say that i read through this whole 5 month old thread because you felt it was important enough to push back up to the front page…

It’s full of toxic, inconsistent, and sometimes has completely untrue things (from both sides of the argument).

that’s.. rather.. sad… i have nothing left to say to you i guess, good luck with whatever agenda you seem to be pushing.

Aza.2105:

Tom.8029:

When a thief uses stealth, you have a few options:
1) Use something that protects yourself.
2) Use something that punishes the thief for hitting you.
3) Anticipate a strike while they’re in stealth and dodge.
4) Use an AoE that damages the thief and stand in it.

For example, I’m an elementalist and one thing I like to do is use Shocking Aura. The moment they attack, they get revealed and they get stunned for hitting me, allowing me to attack.

None of these are counters.

Yes they are, because counter means something that denies the second party access to what would give them an advantage over you, You can’t reduce their stealth TIME, but you can very well make it hard for them to make good use of it.

Oxstar.7643:

Aza.2105:

Tom.8029:

When a thief uses stealth, you have a few options:
1) Use something that protects yourself.
2) Use something that punishes the thief for hitting you.
3) Anticipate a strike while they’re in stealth and dodge.
4) Use an AoE that damages the thief and stand in it.

For example, I’m an elementalist and one thing I like to do is use Shocking Aura. The moment they attack, they get revealed and they get stunned for hitting me, allowing me to attack.

None of these are counters.

Yes they are, because counter means something that denies the second party access to what would give them an advantage over you, You can’t reduce their stealth TIME, but you can very well make it hard for them to make good use of it.

adjective

1.The definition of counter is someone or something the opposite of another.

http://www.yourdictionary.com/counter

Shadowfall.6543:

More 2 cents.

Many of the stealth supporters here seem to postulate that perma stealth is not a huge advantage that can be countered easily once people learn to play.

On a separate note, I think most people will agree that Rangers could use a little love in some other build diversity.

I am not going to agree or disagree only postulate this:

I think we should give rangers access to perma stealth. It seems fair right? It’s not that big of an advantage once one learns to play, it also makes sense for a scout to disappear into the wilderness. They already have some stealth with hunters shot.

Would anyone change their opinions of perma-stealth if rangers had access to it?

No amount of perma stealth would help the 70% of rangers that insist on using their longbow, no matter how hard I poke my 20 cm dagger into their chest.
Sure, give them perma stealth but reduce their HP to lowest tier and take CC and condi cleanse away from them.
Also, for god’s sake, get a sigill of fire, stealth-whiners. Even if you can’t watch your AA-animation, the burnmark should be visible even with your tear-stained eyes.

MarauderShields.6830:

Shadowfall.6543:

More 2 cents.

Many of the stealth supporters here seem to postulate that perma stealth is not a huge advantage that can be countered easily once people learn to play.

On a separate note, I think most people will agree that Rangers could use a little love in some other build diversity.

I am not going to agree or disagree only postulate this:

I think we should give rangers access to perma stealth. It seems fair right? It’s not that big of an advantage once one learns to play, it also makes sense for a scout to disappear into the wilderness. They already have some stealth with hunters shot.

Would anyone change their opinions of perma-stealth if rangers had access to it?

No amount of perma stealth would help the 70% of rangers that insist on using their longbow, no matter how hard I poke my 20 cm dagger into their chest.
Sure, give them perma stealth but reduce their HP to lowest tier and take CC and condi cleanse away from them.
Also, for god’s sake, get a sigill of fire, stealth-whiners. Even if you can’t watch your AA-animation, the burnmark should be visible even with your tear-stained eyes.

Exactly. Damage numbers reveal their position, stealth or not. This is a huge part of why aoe cripple fields (with damage) and flamethrowers are so effective. Hell, even those without damage show a status effect.

Also, anticipation helps. A lot.

Plenty you could do.

• 50% more incoming damage while in stealth.

• 25% chance of hits cause revealed.

• New utility “Lawyers Bane”, instant banish all thieves in a 1200 radius to the bottom of the ocean where Lawyers are thrown.

So many simple changes that’d make the entire GW2 community immensely happy. Except thieves. Nobody cares about thieves.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Plenty you could do.

• 50% more incoming damage while in stealth.

• 25% chance of hits cause revealed.

• New utility “Lawyers Bane”, instant banish all thieves in a 1200 radius to the bottom of the ocean where Lawyers are thrown.

So many simple changes that’d make the entire GW2 community immensely happy. Except thieves. Nobody cares about thieves.

Ironically there is a trait that reduce incoming damage while in stealth by 50%.

Sagat.3285:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Plenty you could do.

• 50% more incoming damage while in stealth.

• 25% chance of hits cause revealed.

• New utility “Lawyers Bane”, instant banish all thieves in a 1200 radius to the bottom of the ocean where Lawyers are thrown.

So many simple changes that’d make the entire GW2 community immensely happy. Except thieves. Nobody cares about thieves.

Ironically there is a trait that reduce incoming damage while in stealth by 50%.

Maybe, but vs an invisible enemy, damage is not what matters, spotting does.

Aza.2105:

Oxstar.7643:

Aza.2105:

Tom.8029:

When a thief uses stealth, you have a few options:
1) Use something that protects yourself.
2) Use something that punishes the thief for hitting you.
3) Anticipate a strike while they’re in stealth and dodge.
4) Use an AoE that damages the thief and stand in it.

For example, I’m an elementalist and one thing I like to do is use Shocking Aura. The moment they attack, they get revealed and they get stunned for hitting me, allowing me to attack.

None of these are counters.

Yes they are, because counter means something that denies the second party access to what would give them an advantage over you, You can’t reduce their stealth TIME, but you can very well make it hard for them to make good use of it.

adjective

1.The definition of counter is someone or something the opposite of another.

http://www.yourdictionary.com/counter

You don’t seem to know what soft counters are. Not everything needs to have a hard counter is. Hard counters are usually just bad/lazy game design.

You can kill/force a stealthing opponent away from whatever the objective is with the things that are currently in game. A hard counter is not needed.

Also from Jan→(almost) July and you haven’t been able to figure out how to deal with stealth? o.O If you want I can go into PvP with you and show you some time…

Aza.2105:

Tom.8029:

When a thief uses stealth, you have a few options:
1) Use something that protects yourself.
2) Use something that punishes the thief for hitting you.
3) Anticipate a strike while they’re in stealth and dodge.
4) Use an AoE that damages the thief and stand in it.

For example, I’m an elementalist and one thing I like to do is use Shocking Aura. The moment they attack, they get revealed and they get stunned for hitting me, allowing me to attack.

None of these are counters.

Agreed. These are not a counter to stealth..they only create a reactionary opportunity to predict what the thief is doing whilst in stealth. They do not counter stealth itself.