Guild Wars 2

First of all current upcoming changes for flamethrower are great! While you are at it, why not make some more changes? It still needs one little touch so it can finally be viable. This change is related to wvw and something we begged for some time. Just one change that will help us greatly. Because our kits are not that great for wvw raids and large group battles. And I think flamethrower can fill that gap for us.

Flame Jet (1) : The biggest problem for this skill is that its hitting 10 times in one channel. This is a huge problem in wvw because it will proc retalition like crazy. So basicly you hit 50 times and proc 50x retalion just by one auto attack. That is at least 10k damage to us! This is absolutely crazy and no other skill in the game punishes its user like this.

The solution for this is very simple. Just make it 5x hits. Done. So it is atleast some what managable. Just like fumigate. It hits 5x and thats already fast enough. I am absolutely sure any engineer who likes flamethrower will love this change. Just a little change which will make flamethrower a good option for us.

The best solution is to use switch weapons. You don’t need to stay in Flamethrower.

That isn’t a solution at all.
It is a weapon that is supposed to be used versus multiple opponents. And yet ends up backfiring in the same exact situation it is supposed to be used for.
And we’re talking about an autoattack, anyway. Since when one should risk so much to deal an autoattack?

it is also far more likely to proc on-hit/crit sigils, so it’s not all bad.

honestly, retal gets exponentially stronger the more people have it in the same area, so it’s not a problem engis alone have.

Manuhell.2759:

That isn’t a solution at all.
It is a weapon that is supposed to be used versus multiple opponents. And yet ends up backfiring in the same exact situation it is supposed to be used for.
And we’re talking about an autoattack, anyway. Since when one should risk so much to deal an autoattack?

I would agree, but Engineer has a 1 second cooldown for switching weapons. When retal goes down, you can easily switch back.

BrunoBRS.5178:

it is also far more likely to proc on-hit/crit sigils, so it’s not all bad.

It wouldn’t be a problem even with half the hits, though. After all, almost all those processings have cooldowns attached. And engineers are limited to two sigils, anyway, so they probably avoid to use both of them for on hit/on crit sigils. Only a couple traits can efficiently make use of multi-hit attacks, basically. And their effects are weak for that exact reason.

honestly, retal gets exponentially stronger the more people have it in the same area, so it’s not a problem engis alone have.

Those other classes probably don’t have a 30 hits skill on autoattack, though.
Autoattack skills can’t do a lot of damage by design…but you still get punished with the full force of retaliation anyway.

runeblade.7514:

I would agree, but Engineer has a 1 second cooldown for switching weapons. When retal goes down, you can easily switch back.

And why should it make sense for a weapon to be fully neutralized by a single (and quite common, i would add) boon?
And it will be even worse with the feature patch – as napalm will direct damage enemies as well, obviously for extremely low amounts of damage, but still getting fully retaliated in return. And you can’t even cancel that as you would do with the autoattack…

its the same with any skill really.
you should feel pitty on the rangers who’ve cast Barrage which will keep AoEing for 12 seconds with no way for the ranger to stop it. (potentially triggering a maximum of 60 Retaliations)
or an ele using Meteor Shower could potentially get 72 retailation procs if every meteor hits the max targets.

^ ranger barrage hurts so much on WvW T_T

And both of them are quite more powerful than flame jet (or napalm, for that matter). A single meteor does almost the same damage of a flame jet. With a tenth of the hits.
There is a risk, and they’re rewarded for it.
Flame Jet (and soon Napalm too) aren’t comparable at all. Only risks and no reward.

Manuhell.2759:

runeblade.7514:

I would agree, but Engineer has a 1 second cooldown for switching weapons. When retal goes down, you can easily switch back.

And why should it make sense for a single skillweapon to be fully neutralized by a single (and quite common, i would add) boon?
And it will be even worse with the feature patch – as napalm will direct damage enemies as well, obviously for extremely low amounts of damage, but still getting fully retaliated in return. And you can’t even cancel that as you would do with the autoattack…

Fixed.

In WvW zergs, retaliation is an extremely common boon.

This is nice because flamethrower is terrible everywhere. Yea it’s nice for decap because of the low cd push but nobody serious about the game uses the auto unless you want to tag stuff or whatever. Actually thats true for a lot of kits. Auto just sucks! You use it to proc traits/runes but mostly you use every other skill!
Retaliation hurts on engi. It’s just the way it is. Grenades proc 3 retals every 0.8s or so..flamethrower is suicide..you get the idea!
Also you can’t go very close because you lack stability! So you just have a decent range.

runeblade.7514:

Manuhell.2759:

runeblade.7514:

I would agree, but Engineer has a 1 second cooldown for switching weapons. When retal goes down, you can easily switch back.

And why should it make sense for a single skillweapon to be fully neutralized by a single (and quite common, i would add) boon?
And it will be even worse with the feature patch – as napalm will direct damage enemies as well, obviously for extremely low amounts of damage, but still getting fully retaliated in return. And you can’t even cancel that as you would do with the autoattack…

Fixed.

You said yourself to switch out the kit if you see someone with retaliation. How is that not “neutralize the whole kit”?
Especially since out of the whole weapon, only 3 skills damage enemies. And with the napalm change, only flame blast won’t massively process retaliation.
And i still haven’t seen a convincing reply about why an autoattack should come such a risk and no reward.
What’s the point of a trait like Juggernaut if you can’t even stay on the kit?

Manuhell.2759:

And both of them are quite more powerful than flame jet (or napalm, for that matter). A single meteor does almost the same damage of a flame jet. With a tenth of the hits.
There is a risk, and they’re rewarded for it.
Flame Jet (and soon Napalm too) aren’t comparable at all. Only risks and no reward.

but the issue here seems to be “i’m hitting people with retaliation and its hurting me!”
so i was just pointing out that atleast you can use your brain and stop attacking targets with retal XD
other classes have AoEs that they can’t stop.

so my advise, stop hitting things with retal :P

But that is just a workaround. As you’re basically saying to avoid using flamethrower, due to how common retaliation is.
Again, what’s the point of having an autoattack with such drawbacks? Low damage multi-hit skills are completely useless due to retaliation, they harm the user more than the enemies. And an autoattack can’t have anything other than a relatively low damage.

Retaliation should have some kind of icd on proccing. Perhaps 0.5 sec on a per skill basis. ( each different attack prox max two times per sec)

Manuhell.2759:

runeblade.7514:

Manuhell.2759:

runeblade.7514:

I would agree, but Engineer has a 1 second cooldown for switching weapons. When retal goes down, you can easily switch back.

And why should it make sense for a single skillweapon to be fully neutralized by a single (and quite common, i would add) boon?
And it will be even worse with the feature patch – as napalm will direct damage enemies as well, obviously for extremely low amounts of damage, but still getting fully retaliated in return. And you can’t even cancel that as you would do with the autoattack…

Fixed.

You said yourself to switch out the kit if you see someone with retaliation. How is that not “neutralize the whole kit”?
Especially since out of the whole weapon, only 3 skills damage enemies. And with the napalm change, only flame blast won’t massively process retaliation.
And i still haven’t seen a convincing reply about why an autoattack should come such a risk and no reward.
What’s the point of a trait like Juggernaut if you can’t even stay on the kit?

Flame Blast/Air Blast/Napalm/Smoke Vent are skills in the Flamethrower kit that are not neutralized. Flame Jet is Not the entire kit.

So, no. Retal doesn’t neutralize the entire kit.

And i still haven’t seen a convincing reply about why an autoattack should come such a risk and no reward.

Engineers can switch weapons at will with a one second cooldown. They can adapt to every situations very easily than any other profession. If the weapon swap was 5-10 seconds, I would agree since it means the engineer must stand still and do nothing if the engineer has a cooldown on weapon swap. But, because it is a one second swap, Engineers can just swap weapon, wait for retal to disappear and change back to Flamethrower.

However, I do not see a convincing reply why Flame Jet should be changed. Other than, “I want it.”

Manuhell.2759:

But that is just a workaround. As you’re basically saying to avoid using flamethrower, due to how common retaliation is.
Again, what’s the point of having an autoattack with such drawbacks? Low damage multi-hit skills are completely useless due to retaliation, they harm the user more than the enemies. And an autoattack can’t have anything other than a relatively low damage.

Blind and Aegis completely block my Eviscerate. Anet should buff Eviscerate so that it can hit two times to make my skill useful.

I cannot believe how many people don’t even understand the problem or even make fun of it. If you just read the post you would see these “This change is related to wvw” and “wvw raids and large group battles” lines.

@Liewec.2896 Omg you are so kittening smart how did we not think of that? Good luck finding a target in 50 people without retaliation.

@runeblade.7514 It doesn’t matter if we don’t have cooldown on weapon switching. Even if we take 3 kits we will still need to use auto attack there is no other option. Have you ever played GvG or even fought an organized enemy? Fights can go up to 3-5 minutes easily. You will end up waiting and doing nothing for half of the fight if you don’t use auto attack. And yes it does neutralize the kit. Air blast and Napalm are useless in this kind of situations. And after patch napalm will trigger retaliation aswell so there is another nail in our coffin.

@Manuhell.2759 You are totally right about all the statements. The damage we give to enemies is funny if you think the punishment of giving that low damage. Most people are so arrogant here they don’t even think outside of their perspectives.

runeblade.7514:

Flame Blast/Air Blast/Napalm/Smoke Vent are skills in the Flamethrower kit that are not neutralized. Flame Jet is Not the entire kit.

So, no. Retal doesn’t neutralize the entire kit.

And out of those, only two are damaging skills. Three if you want to count Napalm as well. And Napalm is getting changed too – it will do negligible amounts of direct damage.
Out of three damaging skills, two will process heavy amounts of retaliation. If using the autoattack ends up being a suicide button, and you have to switch everytime a boon like retaliation is used, then said weapon is neutralized by a single boon, despite what you may say.
And if the weapon itself is supposed to be used versus multiple opponents – thus raising the chance that someone will be able to process retaliation, a boon that usually works on the whole group – then the weapon is flawed by design.

runeblade.7514:

Engineers can switch weapons at will with a one second cooldown. They can adapt to every situations very easily than any other profession. If the weapon swap was 5-10 seconds, I would agree since it means the engineer must stand still and do nothing if the engineer has a cooldown on weapon swap. But, because it is a one second swap, Engineers can just swap weapon, wait for retal to disappear and change back to Flamethrower.

However, I do not see a convincing reply why Flame Jet should be changed. Other than, “I want it.”

So you are fine with having a wasted slot on the weapon. Because that’s what flame jet is. Retaliation is an extremely common boon. Even more in groups – the exact situation flame jet is supposed to be used with.
What’s the point of having an autoattack you can’t even use due to a commonly used boon? Why is there even a trait that requires you to stay on said kit if you can’t do anything during that time? Cause that’s exactly what happens with the flamethrower.
People just use the other skills and switch out.

runeblade.7514:

Blind and Aegis completely block my Eviscerate. Anet should buff Eviscerate so that it can hit two times to make my skill useful.

You are completely missing the point. Blind and Aegis aren’t common as Retaliation at all.

I wish they would rework retaliation to do something different; it’s a really stupid boon in mass pvp and rewards people for stacking in a big blob by making the natural counter to grouping up (aoe) less effective than it already is.

Guys, this is not merely a FT issue. All bundles (-> engineer kits) work differently from regular weapons in one point and for no good reason.

On weapons Stow Weapon stops ability build-up and auto-attack. On bundles we need to use Drop bundle. <Esc> works unreliably with bundles, stops auto-run + pops a menu if hit too late or twice, which easily happens with a little lag.

So simply resolve this anti-intuitive inconsistency, so that Stow Weapon stops stuff on bundles as well. Then we’ll just stop Flame Jet, Fumigate & whatnot if needed like every1 else does if needed.

Explosia.9164:

@runeblade.7514 It doesn’t matter if we don’t have cooldown on weapon switching. Even if we take 3 kits we will still need to use auto attack there is no other option.

Then you use other weapon auto attack because retaliation won’t hurt as much.

Explosia.9164:

Air blast and Napalm are useless in this kind of situations. And after patch napalm will trigger retaliation aswell so there is another nail in our coffin.

Air blast is quite useful in neutralizing the enemy so they can’t take the advantage when retaliation is up.

Napalm is useful for the fire field, great for might stacking. Plus, it won’t hurt as much.

Maybe they’ll add retaliation stripping to one of the flamethrower traits!

(muted snickering)

I am gonna bump this because it must be fixed. There should be no weapon or kit punishing its user and making it absolutely unuseable. I just want devs to see this and go test it just for 1 hour in wvw in a zerg. Im sure they will notice the problem and maybe fix it. Another way to fix this is giving juggernaut immunity for retaliation and removing its toughness bonus for balance.

You’re not going to be using Flame Jet constantly in a zerg fight. If you are, you’re doing it wrong. Just like guardians get punished for using Whirling Wrath at bad times, Engineers get punished for using Flame Jet at bad times. Flamethrower still works fine otherwise.

I could see maybe dropping it to 8 attacks instead of 10 to cut down on the retaliation damage a little bit. But remember that the high number of attacks also has a benefit for proc’ing some traits. It’s also good at getting rid of shields which block a certain number of attacks.

Why do people insist comparing other skills with an autoattack?
Since when autoattacks are so punishing? You say that using Flame Jet constantly in a zerg fight is wrong? Then the skill itself is flawed – its damage is balanced over the assumption you will hit multiple people, yet having those people together usually prevents you from using it.
And no, flamethrower doesn’t work fine otherwise, despite what you say. People just switch upon the kit to use the other skills and then use some other kit, like the bomb one, whose autoattack isn’t as punishing. And that’s despite having a trait – Juggernaut – that relies on engineer staying upon the flamethrower kit.

Anyway, any benefit high numbers of attacks had was mostly nullified when they nerfed on-crit foods by giving them an ICD. The only traits that actually benefit from such a weapon are the ones with no ICD, and they’re obviously balanced upon it (thus on the weak side, to prevent issues arising).

About the shield part, those classes who can put aegis on usually have means to put retaliation as well. Oh, sure, you could do a single hit and cancel hit. But you’re more likely to harm yourselves than anything else.

Anyway, just wait for napalm changes. I can already see people with some resistance to conditions or elementalists with diamond skin purposefully staying on it to harm the engineer (while taking negligible damage in return and no burning at all; it has a base duration of 1s per pulse, so anything that reduces it enough will nullify it).

Retaliation needs nerf for all multihitting skills not only flame jet. Just make it 1 hit per second per target and it will be fine for both sides.

Retal pretty much unfairly owns Barrage/shortbow rangers and engineer grenades/flamethrower.

Meanwhile ele meteorshower and necro marks do far more damage but dont eat 50% of your health in retal.

Telling people to switch weapons till retal wears off is laughable. Retal is pretty much on all the time considering WvW is dominated by guardian/warrior based melee trains.

Rozbuska.5263:

Retaliation needs nerf for all multihitting skills not only flame jet. Just make it 1 hit per second per target and it will be fine for both sides.

What? really, nerf retaliation more? for wvw?
It has already been nerfed and now you want a nerf to promote the usage of flamethrower that gets buffed and now you are afraid that you do too much damage and the usage might kill you?

Really?

how about making flamthrower hit with the same ICD as you suggest for rataliation?
Sounds about right since retaliation is a boon used by All professions.

Considering the rapidfire changes to every profession i would say buff retaliation an make people learn to play a class and discover the actual game and combat tactics.

Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046:

Rozbuska.5263:

Retaliation needs nerf for all multihitting skills not only flame jet. Just make it 1 hit per second per target and it will be fine for both sides.

What? really, nerf retaliation more? for wvw?
It has already been nerfed and now you want a nerf to promote the usage of flamethrower that gets buffed and now you are afraid that you do too much damage and the usage might kill you?

Really?

how about making flamthrower hit with the same ICD as you suggest for rataliation?
Sounds about right since retaliation is a boon used by All professions.

Considering the rapidfire changes to every profession i would say buff retaliation an make people learn to play a class and discover the actual game and combat tactics.

LOL Barrage in full berserker crits at most for 1.3k. I pretty much lose more of my total HP through retaliation than I actually take away from people.

And barrage is the only power spec aoe rangers truly have.

There’s also very little skill involved with retaliation in a WvW setting. For flamethrower and rapid fire you could stop attacking I suppose, but for skills like barrage where the spell has finished channeling before any damage is done to find out if retaliation was on the target?

It really does need an adjustment.

Just going to chime in on how I dislike this change. My flame jet is used in my flame thrower builds to burn cool downs like arcane shield or guard focus block. I love being able to destroy those abilies and other blocking effects in a split second then continue the fight.

Tip: watch teldos flame thrower guide for more uses.

This is a PvP stand point as retal isn’t as critical
I see advantages and disadvantages with both.

Ormus

Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046:

Rozbuska.5263:

Retaliation needs nerf for all multihitting skills not only flame jet. Just make it 1 hit per second per target and it will be fine for both sides.

What? really, nerf retaliation more? for wvw?
It has already been nerfed and now you want a nerf to promote the usage of flamethrower that gets buffed and now you are afraid that you do too much damage and the usage might kill you?

Really?

how about making flamthrower hit with the same ICD as you suggest for rataliation?
Sounds about right since retaliation is a boon used by All professions.

Considering the rapidfire changes to every profession i would say buff retaliation an make people learn to play a class and discover the actual game and combat tactics.

Retal supose to be that annoying thing what learn you not mindlesly spam button over and over NOT main source of damage. If you do 3k dmg and get back 5k something is wrong with system.
If you wanna do it fair lets make it so retal return back percentual part of your dmg maybe then tards like you will understand where is problem when your own Eviscirate kill you.

Rozbuska.5263:

Retaliation needs nerf for all multihitting skills not only flame jet. Just make it 1 hit per second per target and it will be fine for both sides.

Retaliation – much like Confusion – probably just needs to be changed to base it’s damage off the CD of a skill triggering it and the number of hits it can deal. For AAs, damage would be minimal. Use an Elite which only strikes once, you take 5000 damage non-crit. And so on.

Carighan.6758:

Rozbuska.5263:

Retaliation needs nerf for all multihitting skills not only flame jet. Just make it 1 hit per second per target and it will be fine for both sides.

Retaliation – much like Confusion – probably just needs to be changed to base it’s damage off the CD of a skill triggering it and the number of hits it can deal. For AAs, damage would be minimal. Use an Elite which only strikes once, you take 5000 damage non-crit. And so on.

I would like to agree, but seeing the way they changed Napalm, this would wreck flamethrower users even more. Heh, with enough condition reduction, since the base burning is only 1s, people could just pass over it repeatedly to heavily harm the engineer. And that’s with the current retaliation damage.

Imho, retaliation should return a part of the damage inflicted, consuming a stack for every hit returned. That way, low damage skills wouldn’t risk harming the user more than the enemy, as it currently happens. And people wanting to use high damage skills would be incentivized to remove those stacks of retaliation by means of lesser attacks before going for a burst.
And considering how common retaliation is, this level of power would make far more sense.

Once again, let’s make this a matter of skill and patch stow weapon so it stops current attack + auto-attack on kits.
(Yup, i know of esc and change weapon. And how often that leads to unwanted results.)

Explosia.9164:

Flame Jet (1) : The biggest problem for this skill is that its hitting 10 times in one channel. This is a huge problem in wvw because it will proc retalition like crazy. So basicly you hit 50 times and proc 50x retalion just by one auto attack. That is at least 10k damage to us! This is absolutely crazy and no other skill in the game punishes its user like this.

No other feature in the game rewards a user that well either … it procs the hell out of any crit or on hit effects to the point where the crit chance is pretty much irrelevant. Double Edge sword, use with caution. It’s actually a smart implementation … makes you THINK about how and when it should used, not just drooling on the #1 key like a monkey. Probably one of the MOST thoughful implementations Anet has made for a weapon.

The ‘solution’ here is to swap to a weapon where retaliation is less effective.

Except for the part where almost all those proc and on-crit effects have cooldowns, you know.
There are two traits that haven’t got ICD. And they are purposefully weak for that same reason.

And i still haven’t seen any reason why this autoattack should have these drawbacks in the exact situation where is should be used and for what it is balanced for: fighting multiple people. There is nothing smart on shutting down a weapon by using one of the most common boons in the game, one that is so spammable that you can easily have it permanently on uptime even in small groups (that is, the exact case of use flame jet should be used on). Why can people “drool over their retaliation skills like monkeys” without any care about when they should be used, then?
Swapping weapons is not a solution, is a workaround for an absurd situation.

Explosia.9164:

I am gonna bump this because it must be fixed. There should be no weapon or kit punishing its user and making it absolutely unuseable. I just want devs to see this and go test it just for 1 hour in wvw in a zerg. Im sure they will notice the problem and maybe fix it. Another way to fix this is giving juggernaut immunity for retaliation and removing its toughness bonus for balance.

No it doesn’t need fix.

Working as intended.

runeblade.7514:

No it doesn’t need fix.

Working as intended.

So? The point here is to change what is intended.

Obtena.7952:

The ‘solution’ here is to swap to a weapon where retaliation is less effective.

Believe it or not, there is more then one solution to many problems. Personally I would like to see the hits per channel cut in half and simply double the damage per hit.

How many hours do either of you have on the FT by the way?

dancingmonkey.4902:

runeblade.7514:

No it doesn’t need fix.

Working as intended.

So? The point here is to change what is intended.

Obtena.7952:

The ‘solution’ here is to swap to a weapon where retaliation is less effective.

Believe it or not, there is more then one solution to many problems. Personally I would like to see the hits per channel cut in half and simply double the damage per hit.

How many hours do either of you have on the FT by the way?

Enough to know that Flamethrower isn’t the only weapon that engineer has.

It was a simple curiosity question for context. No need to be snide. Not to mention, your avoidance of the question, answers it in itself.

I also find it odd that your argument is change your build, instead of an actual solution. That is not very helpful.

dancingmonkey.4902:

It was a simple curiosity question for context. No need to be snide. Not to mention, your avoidance of the question, answers it in itself.

I also find it odd that your argument is change your build, instead of an actual solution. That is not very helpful.

It is a simple unsnide answer matching to your unsnide question.

Did I say change your build? Stop putting words into my mouth.

runeblade.7514:

dancingmonkey.4902:

It was a simple curiosity question for context. No need to be snide. Not to mention, your avoidance of the question, answers it in itself.

I also find it odd that your argument is change your build, instead of an actual solution. That is not very helpful.

It is a simple unsnide answer matching to your unsnide question.

Did I say change your build? Stop putting words into my mouth.

Yeah, you did, when you stated that FT builds should change weapons. There are some solid builds with FT/HgH elixir builds for example. It is reasonable to discuss the idea of not being punished for the main attack on the main utility the build is designed around.

No one put words in your mouth.

The problem is how Retaliation works. A slue of abilities (traits, foods, buffs, etc) got internal cooldowns because these effects were broken in situations where a lot of procs could go off in rapid succession.
Why retaliation was ignored on this front is simply baffling. As this boon is exactly in that catagory of problematic procs.

Where on one hand of the spectrum you have slow but incredibly hard hitting abilities. A 11.000 backstab getting retaliated with a mere 300damage. On the opposite end of the spectrum you find a 1200damage Flamejet being retaliated by 3000damage.
And where in aoe situations, single abilities can proc massive amounts of retaliation.

Barrage is one example, but far worst is Grenade Barrage. A skill that can end up returning as many as 35 procs of retaliation. The use of a single skill, which barely dented the targets it hit, has resulted in instantly losing well over 10.000damage.

There is absolutely no balance to speak of in case of retaliation. Some dont even notice it, while others find they effectively signed their own death warrent.
All of this made much worst by the sheer stupidity at which retaliation is spammed. Its not an inteligent boon, or a limited boon. It is a mindlessly, spammed, boon. More a side-effect from just playing than a concience descision.

And the answer cannot be “use another weapon”. Flamethrower is one of the more extreme examples, but as an Engineer literaly every weapon is designed with AoE in mind. And some of them get multi-hit sprinkled on top of even that.

Retaliation shouldve gotten an icd a loooooong time ago, and have the damage it returns be balanced on that cooldown, which in all likelyhood would warrent buffing the damage it can actually proc for.
Which would result in retaliation being more viable against builds and weapons that rely on slow/heavy hits, without being overly punishing of builds and weapons that are build for aoe and multihit.

Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046:

What? really, nerf retaliation more? for wvw?
It has already been nerfed and now you want a nerf to promote the usage of flamethrower that gets buffed and now you are afraid that you do too much damage and the usage might kill you?

And eat that again dumb kid:
http://i.imgur.com/Wd9lhMN.jpg

dancingmonkey.4902:

runeblade.7514:

dancingmonkey.4902:

It was a simple curiosity question for context. No need to be snide. Not to mention, your avoidance of the question, answers it in itself.

I also find it odd that your argument is change your build, instead of an actual solution. That is not very helpful.

It is a simple unsnide answer matching to your unsnide question.

Did I say change your build? Stop putting words into my mouth.

Yeah, you did, when you stated that FT builds should change weapons. There are some solid builds with FT/HgH elixir builds for example. It is reasonable to discuss the idea of not being punished for the main attack on the main utility the build is designed around.

No one put words in your mouth.

Yes you did put words in my mouth.

I said change weapons. You said change builds.

Which means, you switch weapons to rifle or any other weapon kit when retaliation is up. If you can’t understand that, then you are a lost cause. You rather have ANet make Engi more skill-less than improving yourself.

“My enemies are kiting me! Pls buff my melee skills so that I can range them!11”

runeblade.7514:

Yes you did put words in my mouth.

I said change weapons. You said change builds.

Which means, you switch weapons to rifle or any other weapon kit when retaliation is up. If you can’t understand that, then you are a lost cause. You rather have ANet make Engi more skill-less than improving yourself.

“My enemies are kiting me! Pls buff my melee skills so that I can range them!11”

No, I am not asking for skill-less. I am asking for a functional change based on the fact that they changed how retaliation worked some time ago.

I am sorry that it upsets you that some of us feel it is reasonable for an auto attack to do more damage to the enemy then the user. I cannot understand the logic path you use to get to a position against that, but your welcome to your opinion.

The fact remains, I feel you have failed to present a reasonable argument for not changing it.

By the way, how you you get

I said change weapons. You said change builds.

out of:

runeblade.7514:

Enough to know that Flamethrower isn’t the only weapon that engineer has.

You made an obtuse statement in a poor attempt to make some sort of back handed remark. No need to avoid clarification.

By the way, you avoided the question twice now, but how many hours did you say you have, using the FT?

To sum up WvW + FT + Retal

I hit you, you hit back almost as hard as I do. Just from retal

http://i.imgur.com/Wd9lhMN.jpg