Guild Wars 2

Hi,
The necromancer does not have weapon skills of movement, all classes have:

Elementalist – Burning retreat, Burning speed, Ride of lightning

Warrior – Wirlwind attack, Rush, Earthshaker

Ranger – Swoop, Hornet sting, Monarch’s leap

Guardian – Leap of faith, Mighty blow, Flashing blade

Thief – Infiltrator’s arrow, Heartseeker, Infiltrator’s strike

Engineer – Overcharged shot, Jump Shot

Mesmer – Phase retreat, Illusionary leap

These are not all, some classes have also other, the necromancer does not have even one. Seen that the necromancer has no ability to move his escape routes are extremely narrow.

The necromancer can use: Cripple, Chill and Fear together Swiftness (who has) for run away, but the enemy with its skill of movement and / or removing the conditions he reach, without considerable who is immune to the conditions.
More simple can use Spectral walk or Flesh wurm (UTILITIES), but Spectral walk leaves the green trail so if the enemy knows where to find the necromancer, (if you saw the beginning of the ability) and joins him in more or less time depending on the class.
Flash wurm is the only skill that allows you to easily run away from a fight but sometimes it bugs and teleport you 2-3 steps to the wurm, practically keep them.

The necromancer must use absolutely things above mentioned if you want HOPE to be able to escape and equally other classes may reach with the weapon skills.

I have not mentioned Dark pact because teleports you into the fray of another enemy… exit from battle for enter on other battle. (wvw excluding)
Plague does not allow to escape, only to take more shots and die a few feet away. XD

Another thing that should be changed necromancer, Stability.
The necromancer virtually no stability, or better, all or nothing.
If you put 30 points on Soul Reaping for Foot in the Grave and have stability when you want it.
Without Foot in the Grave only dodges and break stun can save you.
Ok you tell me “other class has no stability”, but have stealth or other ploy,
necromancer go, fight, finish the skill (does not have infinite break stun), slammed around the map, and die.

The other thing I would he be put, Combo Finisher.
Necromancer have many combo field, Chillblains, all Well and Spectral Wall, but not exploits them because he have only two skill combo finischer, Putrid Mark and Putrid Explosion, this is frustrating… some classes instead base their very own style of play on them (Black Powder > Heartseeker).

I apologize for the English, i use Google translator.

As a necromancer I agree to a certain extent with most of your points. As far as movement skills, necromancers won’t get them because they are supposed to stay in the fight. To counteract this they are supposed to make it very hard for enemies to get away. I think arena net needs to make spectral grasp an instant pull because it would help in this respect a lot. Currently, many classes have to many instants that can’t really be countered. This would make running from necromancers much harder, but they still wouldn’t be able to escape well which is by design.

Stability is the one thing I think a necromancer should have so much more of. There are too classes that don’t have good escape mechanics, guardian, and necromancer. It is only fair that if a necromancer has to “stay in the pocket” they shouldn’t be constantly cc’d. Giving a necromancer more stability would also help solve the problem of hammer trains in wvw because necromancers could corrupt many of the stacked boons on these trains.

Combo finishers are similar to stability, in that necromancers don’t have enough of them. There was a thread a while back where I listed my thoughts on this, so I’ll just post those here:

These are the skills I think could have finishers on them.
Life Blast: It should be a projectile finisher, it is slow and projectile finishers are weak enough so that it wouldn’t be overpowered.
Dark Path: It should be a leap, and it shouldn’t send out a claw it should just leap to the target.
Tainted Shackles: When the immobilize hits a blast should as well.
Reaper’s Mark: It is on a 40 second cooldown, give me something beyond an aoe fear with a blast finisher.
Ghastly Claws: This should be a whirl finisher, if you’ve seen the animation you should know this.
Unholy Feast: Also should be a blast, it literally blasts at the end.
Dark Pact: could be a blast as well
Reaper’s Touch: it’s a scythe projectile, why it isn’t a finisher I’ll never know.
Wail of doom: Blast please.

The issue I see is a lot of necromancer skills wouldn’t be able to work as any kind of finisher because they are so unique.

Basically, while I can understand that ANet does not want to make the necromancer too mobile a class (because it’s supposed to outlast its opponents through attrition blahblahblah), to that end, they haven’t given the necromancer the tools to sustain itself over a prolonged fight.

It would really help if the DS teleport ability was faster. It’s such a slow moving projectile right now, and way too easy to dodge. So both as an attack and an escape it’s rather useless.

Usagi.4835:

Basically, while I can understand that ANet does not want to make the necromancer too mobile a class (because it’s supposed to outlast its opponents through attrition blahblahblah), to that end, they haven’t given the necromancer the tools to sustain itself over a prolonged fight.

That’s BS.

Necromancer does have a movement skill… On Spear.

The other issue is that Warhorn swiftness actually makes you slower in pvE and WvW.

Now that we’ve established that it is not out of flavor to give Necromancer what it has and what everybody else has, we can ask anet to fix things.

nekretaal.6485:

Usagi.4835:

Basically, while I can understand that ANet does not want to make the necromancer too mobile a class (because it’s supposed to outlast its opponents through attrition blahblahblah), to that end, they haven’t given the necromancer the tools to sustain itself over a prolonged fight.

That’s BS.

Necromancer does have a movement skill… On Spear.

The other issue is that Warhorn swiftness actually makes you slower in pvE and WvW.

Now that we’ve established that it is not out of flavor to give Necromancer what it has and what everybody else has, we can ask anet to fix things.

How is it BS? I don’t know about others, but you do realise that when I refer to mobility as a concept, I mean leaps, teleports, dashes etc. and not just swiftness?

If we were all just talking about swiftness, then necromancer has no issue re: mobility since we actually have better access to it than mesmers which are also pitifully slow.

Spear #3 doesn’t really count as a movement skill. Trident #3 is a better skill in that regard. The swiftness you get from Spear #3 is shortlived unless you have enough boon duration or pair it up with Spectral Walk.

As nice as it would be have a RTL-esque skill on necromancer, I know it is improbable.

Giving main hand dagger a gap closer would be nice, but the rest of the weapons, a necro has, dont really need one. Especially because landing dark pact is really hard and to unreliable, without using a deathshoud setup (which also can fail).

The fact that ArenaNet want the necromancer is a class that wears out the opponent is not a valid reason to cut it out of the game mechanics.
All play in their style and they all have skill movement on land.

ArenaNet maybe you do not realize what it means to have skill movement, I have to give some examples?
Necromancer roam on WvW and and sees any class (not another necromancer),
the opponent of the necromancer chooses whether to fight or leave, you can kill him if he chooses to fight but if you choose to leave (low level or equipment, or simply did not want) is gone.
But when you get engaged in a battle and you must retreat (if in bad shape), you can not!
beautiful is not it?

A friend of mine ,warrior, the other day in WvW met a guardian, my friend had two swords and bow, the guardian sword/focus and GS, the warrior had the upper hand in the battle so the guardian decided to leave, so the guardian uses Leap of fait, Judge intervention and Flashing blade the whole monsters on the map, exit from battle and teleport at waipoint. The warrior was a little behind with Savage leap and Bull’s Charge but fled.
Would you explain to me how a necromancer can chase or escape from something like this without having the similar capabilities?
I do not want to be forced to play with Spectral Walk or Flash Wurm, put a utility that allows you to escape better should be a choice not an obligation.

They all have valid defense systems: stability, stealth, teleportation, invulnerability, aegis and blindness.
The necromancer instead of traveling across the plains in plain sight without almost nothing of it.
Raising it Stability I think it is fair.

Another thing that really makes me angry…
Necromancer (condition) find a warrior and he uses Berserker Stance, immune to conditions for 8 seconds!!! WTF!
Why eight seconds? Endure pain makes it immune for 4 second from direct damage, is manageable, why Berserker Stance 8?!?!?
Still does not just make it immune to the detriment of the conditions you can not even crippled, chilled, immobilized or scared you can only use it to keep it at bay (if you have them) Charge and Wail of Doom but he will have Balanced Stance
Wait! keep calm… Corrupt boon Wail of Doom! The warrior, Dolyak signet. Run away… ehm I can not.
Ok beat me.
Do not think that face the tragic, in situations outnumbered the cc come like rain from the sky, and you can not concentrate on the warrior in god mode.

Also the only class that cant block projectiles how is that fair? 7/8 can.
Maybe make spectral wall block projectiles but still keep its current function.

Muchacho.2390:

Giving main hand dagger a gap closer would be nice, but the rest of the weapons, a necro has, dont really need one. Especially because landing dark pact is really hard and to unreliable, without using a deathshoud setup (which also can fail).

What about having Dark Pact function like elementalist’s Magnetic Grasp on MH dagger/earth attunement? If ANet changed DS2 to make it function similarly to Ride The Lightning, I’d pee my pants in joy but won’t happen most likely.

Usagi.4835:

Muchacho.2390:

Giving main hand dagger a gap closer would be nice, but the rest of the weapons, a necro has, dont really need one. Especially because landing dark pact is really hard and to unreliable, without using a deathshoud setup (which also can fail).

What about having Dark Pact function like elementalist’s Magnetic Grasp on MH dagger/earth attunement? If ANet changed DS2 to make it function similarly to Ride The Lightning, I’d pee my pants in joy but won’t happen most likely.

Double CD unless it hits?

zapv.8051:

As a necromancer I agree to a certain extent with most of your points. As far as movement skills, necromancers won’t get them because they are supposed to stay in the fight. To counteract this they are supposed to make it very hard for enemies to get away. I think arena net needs to make spectral grasp an instant pull because it would help in this respect a lot. Currently, many classes have to many instants that can’t really be countered. This would make running from necromancers much harder, but they still wouldn’t be able to escape well which is by design.

Screw that. This is unoriginal, unfair, and keeps the skills useless.

Spectral Grasp should be an AoE pull. Necromancers can send out five hands to pull in 5 random enemies in a cone infront of the necro. AWESOME!

I’ve felt that necros need way more access to torment so people actually consider not moving, which would also work well with fear. Plus, spectral grasp could be instant to keep players close, as of right now it fails far too often – same with dark path.

I’ve always felt that signet of spite’s active should be a pull too. Make these changes and necros could turn more into that class that can be harder to escape from.

I’ve posted in a lot of these necro based threads, but I really feel that necros are so close to being where they need to be and only a few main changes could get them there.

Necro:s have other things going for them, and different classes have different challenges. The lack of mobility, evades, aegis, blocks, gap closers and stability makes for a special play-style and I like it. Maybe some minor changes but that’s just my 2 cents. I would prefer changes to our sustain instead (like Blood Magic).

Ryld.1340:

Usagi.4835:

Muchacho.2390:

Giving main hand dagger a gap closer would be nice, but the rest of the weapons, a necro has, dont really need one. Especially because landing dark pact is really hard and to unreliable, without using a deathshoud setup (which also can fail).

What about having Dark Pact function like elementalist’s Magnetic Grasp on MH dagger/earth attunement? If ANet changed DS2 to make it function similarly to Ride The Lightning, I’d pee my pants in joy but won’t happen most likely.

Double CD unless it hits?

Have the projectile travel as fast as Ride The Lightning does.

I understand what you’re saying OP, but how are you inferring that it’s a balance problem?

I mean I could observe that only Mesmers have pink as a class colour. This is correct. It’s probably not a balance concern however.

Carighan.6758:

I understand what you’re saying OP, but how are you inferring that it’s a balance problem?

I mean I could observe that only Mesmers have pink as a class colour. This is correct. It’s probably not a balance concern however.

Being too slow to escape, being too slow to catch anyone and lacking the sustain of a Guardian means that Necros just die if things go downhill, there’s no escape.

It’s bad to the point that people who insist on WvW roaming as a Necro roll Norn for the Snow Leopard form.
Just for mobility.

Necromancer used to be the hardest Profession in the game to kill pre-launch.
They even had a Minor Trait that made them immune to all CC in Death Shroud.
They were harder to kill than Bunker Guardians.

Necro thus still has less mobility than a Guardian does.
…but their survivability nowadays is way lower.

So the Necro is not only slow as hell but also isn’t amazing at survivability.
Anet has went back on it somewhat, and Necros are no longer the free kills they used to be. They do have some sustain now.

However they are still slow, not super hard to kill and are terribly weak to CC because most of their Condition removal is designed for 3+ condi stacks and comes with a long cooldown or other requirements.

Necro also has no Vigor aside from converting a Bleed with Well of Power and Stability is very limited.
No Stealth, either.

When you lack all those things and are slower than a Guardian it makes you very much a pinball ball for any knockbacks and knockdowns.

Necros seem to be completely balanced around being a slow AoE Condi sPvP Profession.
Means they suck at PvE and cannot escape while WvW roaming.
Good in WvW Zergs, though.

Currently what helds Necro’s mobility back (aside from the flawed idea that Necros being slow is somehow fun) is that Condi Engineers would be inferior to Condi Necros if the Necro was as mobile as Engineers are.

I don’t see such an argument for Power Necros, though, and I think that Anet should give Dagger or a future Power Weapon a leap.
I don’t think that many would miss Life Siphon if it was replaced by a Leap that steals Life.
…and Necros would still be way behind Warrior in both damage and mobility.

LastDay.3524:

Being too slow to escape, being too slow to catch anyone and lacking the sustain of a Guardian means that Necros just die if things go downhill, there’s no escape.

On the other hand, Necromancers have:

• Charge in Death Shroud (if you’re wondering why you don’t have one on a weapon, look no further!). Low CD, too. Underwater this is on the Spear, btw.
• 30s Swiftness + 8s window for recall teleport.
• Runspeed signet (you can always give it to me if you don’t want it :P ).
• Teleport-to-wurm.
• Enemy-pull. Not quite the same thing, but in small situations nearly equivalent.

Anyhow, I don’t see the problem. Plenty skills to augment movement, and I skipped most Swiftness effects simply because they’re too common.

Carighan.6758:

LastDay.3524:

Being too slow to escape, being too slow to catch anyone and lacking the sustain of a Guardian means that Necros just die if things go downhill, there’s no escape.

On the other hand, Necromancers have:

• Charge in Death Shroud (if you’re wondering why you don’t have one on a weapon, look no further!). Low CD, too. Underwater this is on the Spear, btw.
• 30s Swiftness + 8s window for recall teleport.
• Runspeed signet (you can always give it to me if you don’t want it :P ).
• Teleport-to-wurm.
• Enemy-pull. Not quite the same thing, but in small situations nearly equivalent.

Anyhow, I don’t see the problem. Plenty skills to augment movement, and I skipped most Swiftness effects simply because they’re too common.

There’s no charge in Death Shroud.

Dark Path is a slow projectile that requires a target.
If it hits you teleport. If it’s dodged it doesn’t.
It does nothing unless it hits someone.

You cannot use it for escaping unless you are lucky enough to have a random bunny or bird on your escape route.
Used to work like Mesmer Blink in ye olde times, btw.
Before we players got our hands on the game.

Swiftness doesn’t actually do nearly as much for mobility as you might think.
Most of actual mobility comes from leaps. Necro’s only one is underwater.
And what do you know? It’s not imba.
Likewise I think that Necro could use a leap on a power ground weapon.

Likewise the Speed Signet sucks.
I just use Speed Runes instead. Leaves me with an actually usable Utility skill.

The Wurm casts way too slow to give a significant boost in distance.
If it had a faster cast time I’d probably use it!
It’s somewhat underrated, although still substandard for that purpose.

Enemy pull doesn’t really help you escape either, for obvious reasons.
It’s good in WvW Zergs, however, to pull people who try to escape.

LastDay.3524:

Dark Path is a slow projectile that requires a target.
If it hits you teleport. If it’s dodged it doesn’t.
It does nothing unless it hits someone..

So basically it’s like a Mesmer sword charge, only it doesn’t bug out.
What I’m saying is, your position is incredibly biased. Necromancers have plenty mobility-tools, and other classes aren’t all sunshine and roses as you seem to think they are.

I’m quite envious of the way your claw works. My charge gets stuck on any upwards terrain, and a dev confirmed that it cannot be fixed any time soon due to being a global issue.

But… what’s the point? Classes work different. You have a much better charge, I have blink. So I need to commit a utility-slot, but then also break stun. You Chill and Bleed on the other hand. All different.

Necromancers have incredible pressure and staying power. Most other classes will have an incredibly difficult time if forced to fight a Necromancer in a confinded area with no running away (such as fighting for a node). Warriors are probably the big exception (and I feel Warriors need to be seriously toned down).

If Necromancers had their sheer ability to stand around, deal damage, and sustain… while also being fairly mobile, I feel it would be unbalanced.

I feel the Necromancer lacking mobility is a fine and fair weakness and distinct counterbalance to their other innate abilities (such as the power to spec so highly for damage thanks to having a ton of health, or their very easy to land high-damage skills such as Scepter auto).

Carighan.6758:

So basically it’s like a Mesmer sword charge, only it doesn’t bug out.
What I’m saying is, your position is incredibly biased. Necromancers have plenty mobility-tools, and other classes aren’t all sunshine and roses as you seem to think they are.

I’m quite envious of the way your claw works. My charge gets stuck on any upwards terrain, and a dev confirmed that it cannot be fixed any time soon due to being a global issue.

But… what’s the point? Classes work different. You have a much better charge, I have blink. So I need to commit a utility-slot, but then also break stun. You Chill and Bleed on the other hand. All different.

O.O are we playing the same game? You do release necro actually moves further by running with swiftness than by using dark path or flesh wurm. The only mobility skills necro has is if you abuse the executioner axe toy charge. Swiftness and runspeed dont count as proper mobility as all classes have one or the other or both. Although I admit mesmers do have an issue trying to get perma swiftness.

Btw i dont even fully agree with giving necro mobility. I do think it needs one instant teleport which doesnt require the projectile to hit first though (similar to guard sword blink). I dont mind it being a slow class as long as it has the damage and threat to make up for it. But as it stands necro is the slowest class, has the least active defense and no real pressure or way to keep people from escaping and in pve it has average dps and below average defense. Major reworks need to be done to fix the class, especially for pve.

Carighan.6758:

LastDay.3524:

Dark Path is a slow projectile that requires a target.
If it hits you teleport. If it’s dodged it doesn’t.
It does nothing unless it hits someone..

So basically it’s like a Mesmer sword charge, only it doesn’t bug out.
What I’m saying is, your position is incredibly biased. Necromancers have plenty mobility-tools, and other classes aren’t all sunshine and roses as you seem to think they are.

I’m quite envious of the way your claw works. My charge gets stuck on any upwards terrain, and a dev confirmed that it cannot be fixed any time soon due to being a global issue.

But… what’s the point? Classes work different. You have a much better charge, I have blink. So I need to commit a utility-slot, but then also break stun. You Chill and Bleed on the other hand. All different.

Quite the opposite.
You simply have tunnel vision on your Mesmer.

I main a Necro, but I have one of every Profession, save for Ranger.
My Thief and Warrior are at least three times faster than my Necro.

As such I use my Thief when I roam in WvW.
(I tend to mostly just Zerg with my Necro, though.)

Elementalist is clearly faster as well, but not as fast as some think.
Ride the Lightning nerf slowed them quite a bit.
Fiery Greatsword makes them insanely fast, though.
Guess why? Two charge skills.

Guardian can be fast, but the mobility didn’t seem practical for the builds I used.
It’s awkward to make a Guardian fast, didn’t feel practical the last I tried it.
Still, you at least have the option while Necro doesn’t.

Mesmer is the second least mobile.
In-combat they are WAY more mobile than a Necro is, but outside of it they aren’t all that much faster.
1200 Range blink + Speed Runes (or Centaur with Mantra) is their one way to mobility.
This makes them pretty darn mobile, but is a one-trick thing.

Then there’s Portal.
It’s like a better version of Spectral Walk as far as using teleports to escape goes.
Certainly better than the 8 second window Spectral Walk has. :P
But the cooldown is crazy long, and it’s best used for other things.

Mesmers always long for Swiftness and a Speed signet because they have barely any access to Swiftness.
My best friend in GW2 has played a Mesmer for over 4000 hours, heard her mention it before.

After playing my Thief I realized that I almost never have much Swiftness on my Thief!
Thief is simply so fast due to all the shadowsteps and leaps.
Of course Thief is intended to be the fastest!
Just saying the Speed signet and Swiftness matter surprisingly little.
The only time I felt myself caring about runspeed was when I was trying to land a backstab.

Swiftness matters more at long distances, if you have no other means on leaping/charging/teleporting.

You keep saying Necro and Charge, but the only Charge Necro has is on Flesh Golem.
I wish I could put a saddle on my flesh golem!

Anyway, I’m obviously not saying that Necro needs to be as mobile as a Thief.
But it’s still true that they are insanely slow.
It may work for sPvP balance… Maps are small and control points matter more than your life does.

In other areas of the game, however, it’s very painful to deal with.
The optimal way to paly Necro in most of PvE is to run zerker, drop wells and spam Dagger auto.
At least give my Dagger a leap.
My Warrior is so much faster and deals way more damage.

Giving CONDI Necros a leap, however, would likely make them overpowered.
So I think it should be restrained to a power weapon.
Much how Guardians have the option of taking a leap.

LastDay.3524:

It’s bad to the point that people who insist on WvW roaming as a Necro roll Norn for the Snow Leopard form.
Just for mobility.

I roam as a necro and I’m not a norn. I know several other roaming non-Norn necro:s.

Yes…running away as a necro equals death nine times out of ten. The challenge (and the fun) is not to put yourself in situations where you have to run away.

Well if you want to trade RTL every 40 seconds in exchange for 8k more base hp and a second health bar then my ele would be more than willing to make that trade any day of the week.

Not really a fair comparison I know but you have to give up something for the good stuff your class has. Comparing it to a war that has mobility and everything else at the same time isnt really a good idea, it might suck to solo roam in wvw on a necro but not every class is amazing at every part of the game

From playing a necro in spvp i have a much harder time dealing with cc spam than with mobility, thats an aspect of the class thats more worth complaining about

I dont care about mobility we need sustain. Siphons and blood magic are a joke that has gone on for far too long. Vital Persistence buff was a step in the right direction, but there is still an entire class supposed mechanic that is completely useless. Anet themselves have stated that they want necro to sustain themselves through soft cc and siphons. Where my siphons at anet. Where they be.

jpersson.7368:

LastDay.3524:

It’s bad to the point that people who insist on WvW roaming as a Necro roll Norn for the Snow Leopard form.
Just for mobility.

I roam as a necro and I’m not a norn. I know several other roaming non-Norn necro:s.

Yes…running away as a necro equals death nine times out of ten. The challenge (and the fun) is not to put yourself in situations where you have to run away.

If you enjoy the challenge, then cool!
I just think you can roam with other Professions much more efficiently.
Or by using Snow Leopard form for Stealth and charge.
(The charge is over 1500 range iirc, btw)

Sizer.5632:

Well if you want to trade RTL every 40 seconds in exchange for 8k more base hp and a second health bar then my ele would be more than willing to make that trade any day of the week.

Not really a fair comparison I know but you have to give up something for the good stuff your class has. Comparing it to a war that has mobility and everything else at the same time isnt really a good idea, it might suck to solo roam in wvw on a necro but not every class is amazing at every part of the game

From playing a necro in spvp i have a much harder time dealing with cc spam than with mobility, thats an aspect of the class thats more worth complaining about

Power Necro does have a medium/high level of “tankyness”, but I don’t think that their levels of sustainability, speed and damage when added up average to anything great.

On sustainability side they are crazy weak to CCs, and GW2 in general values blocks, dodges and invul over raw health.
It’s especially apparent in many boss fights.
Although lately Anet has thankfully included fewer instakill mechanics.

AoE damage and unfocused stray shots are where I feel the raw health wins.
Great Zerging Profession, provided you can keep up with the Zerg, whether it’s Living World or WvW.

On damage side Power Necros are… manageable. But not really good.
The lack of cleave and long Well cooldowns hurts.
Life Blast is very nice, however.

I still think that they could afford to have a 600 range leap replace Life Siphon.
It would be an immense help in PvE, and also help in WvW what it comes to roaming.
I doubt that it would make them OP in sPvP, especially if split to have a higher cooldown in PvP.

The slowness is also very annoying during Guild Missions and Dungeons, trying to keep up with others.
And if you ever Frostgorge champ farm it’s just easier to use an alt to keep up…

Problem is Necro is so designed around the small sPvP maps that us playing a lot of PvE suffer for it.

Perhaps I wouldn’t mind being slow if I actually got enough in return for suffering it.
If Necro actually got respectable amounts of Stability or a few Blocks or Projectile Reflects perhaps I’d start to care less.

Also if Control was an actually wanted role in PvE, and people wanted a Necro to Cripple+Immob+Fear mobs regularly then I’d feel I’m actually trading my mobility for something I’m wanted for.

As it is nobody wants a Necro in PvE, aside from the Condi team at husks.
You are just slow and your damage is nothing special.

Stand The Wall.6987:

Siphons and blood magic are a joke that has gone on for far too long.

9 years to be precise.

Stand The Wall.6987:

Siphons and blood magic are a joke that has gone on for far too long.

The trouble about life stealing is that its innately overpowered: it’s a two-fer. Increasing your own hit-points while simultaneously lowering a target’kitten-points in the same attack is two skills in one without any proper set-up for that powerful effect. It would be much more balanced (and easier) to simply make a lot of “siphon” abilities simply heal the caster instead of deal additional damage. That additional damage “flavor” is keeping the entire trait line from being effective at all. ANet wants to keep the flavor and will sacrifice effectiveness to do so (case in point: old [Rocket Boots]). It’s a stupid design and the whole thing should be adjusted to heal the Necromancer (and his allies) instead of simultaneously inflicting damage.

With the addition of powerful healing traits, Necromancers could actually prolong fights in somewhat more fair ways that fear spamming and racing to kill a player with condition spam or ranged damage without projectiles or proper cues (“somewhat” because they’re still passive procs, and those are pretty garbage to begin with).

Stand The Wall.6987:

I dont care about mobility we need sustain. Siphons and blood magic are a joke that has gone on for far too long. Vital Persistence buff was a step in the right direction, but there is still an entire class supposed mechanic that is completely useless. Anet themselves have stated that they want necro to sustain themselves through soft cc and siphons. Where my siphons at anet. Where they be.

I agree with this. It’s been said several times in the past Necromancers won’t be getting mobility skills. I can live with that. My WvW guild that has to occasionally reverse to save my kitten because I have no leap to keep pace can live with that.

As it stands, sustain is a bit less of an issue because Dhuumfire lets them straight-up beat most classes via burst. Post-nerf, I’m not sure how it’ll go.

Swagg.9236:

The trouble about life stealing is that its innately overpowered: it’s a two-fer. Increasing your own hit-points while simultaneously lowering a target’kitten-points in the same attack is two skills in one without any proper set-up for that powerful effect. It would be much more balanced (and easier) to simply make a lot of “siphon” abilities simply heal the caster instead of deal additional damage.

I couldn’t disagree with you more. That would turn the skill into simply another healing skill. Being able to hurt an enemy and heal yourself at the same time, is the one merit that life stealing has. Removing the function of harming your enemy, turns life stealing into a joke.

Lifestealing is not innately overpowered. But it a risky mechanic, that can easily become too powerful, in the right build.

Anet’s problem, is that they are too scared to make life stealing useful. This has been holding lifestealing back ever since GW1, and it has never reached it’s potential because of it.

We can’t continue with life stealing like this. At some point they’ve got to take a risk, and make it a lot more effective. See what the effect is, and if it is too much, THEN scale it back. Because 9 years of being poor is way too frickin long for any mechanic, to still be balanced with silk gloves.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Lifestealing is not innately overpowered. But it a risky mechanic, that can easily become too powerful, in the right build.

That’s the point: every build becomes a lit fuse when held next to the pile of black powder that is lifesteal.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Anet’s problem, is that they are too scared to make life stealing useful. This has been holding lifestealing back ever since GW1, and it has never reached it’s potential because of it.

We can’t continue with life stealing like this. At some point they’ve got to take a risk, and make it a lot more effective. See what the effect is, and if it is too much, THEN scale it back. Because 9 years of being poor is way too frickin long for any mechanic,

An across the board buff to siphon would never be anything other than Bloodspike or a Healing Signet that also damages foes. There is no middle ground with this mechanic. It’s either overpowered or underpowered. Scrap it and make it into something that at least can benefit the party or the player directly.

how is double life and top health pool for survival, does that count for anything? not enough?

gesho.9468:

how is double life and top health pool for survival, does that count for anything? not enough?

1. Death Shroud must be built up. Necros don’t just “get it”
2. Ask the Champ mobs in the game. For most of them, their sole defense is loads and loads of health. How well does that work out for them?

Carighan.6758:

LastDay.3524:

Dark Path is a slow projectile that requires a target.
If it hits you teleport. If it’s dodged it doesn’t.
It does nothing unless it hits someone..

So basically it’s like a Mesmer sword charge, only it doesn’t bug out.
What I’m saying is, your position is incredibly biased. Necromancers have plenty mobility-tools, and other classes aren’t all sunshine and roses as you seem to think they are.

I’m quite envious of the way your claw works. My charge gets stuck on any upwards terrain, and a dev confirmed that it cannot be fixed any time soon due to being a global issue.

But… what’s the point? Classes work different. You have a much better charge, I have blink. So I need to commit a utility-slot, but then also break stun. You Chill and Bleed on the other hand. All different.

It doesn’t work like Illusionary Leap in any way, besides the requirement that there be a target.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I couldn’t disagree with you more. That would turn the skill into simply another healing skill. Being able to hurt an enemy and heal yourself at the same time, is the one merit that life stealing has. Removing the function of harming your enemy, turns life stealing into a joke.

Lifestealing is not innately overpowered. But it a risky mechanic, that can easily become too powerful, in the right build.

Anet’s problem, is that they are too scared to make life stealing useful. This has been holding lifestealing back ever since GW1, and it has never reached it’s potential because of it.

We can’t continue with life stealing like this. At some point they’ve got to take a risk, and make it a lot more effective. See what the effect is, and if it is too much, THEN scale it back. Because 9 years of being poor is way too frickin long for any mechanic, to still be balanced with silk gloves.

And hammer warrior with healing signet is not a problem since summer. Yeah. Not biased at all.
____________________________________________________________
on topic:

• Dark path
  Ground targeted teleport, adds aoe chill and blind upon use. 1500 range. Pls?
• Spectral grasp
  Applies chill instantly. Turns into Spectral pul. If you use again, it pulls your foe. Add in a 1 second delay like at Temporal curtain. Or not. Probably not.
• MOAR Torment
  Maybe reduce the overall bleed application in exchange of that to balance out the damage somehow. More or less Necro stays the same with firepower, but a covering bleeds via Torment becomes easier now.
• Tainted Shackles
  Aoe pull, pretty pleeeeeaaaase! Requires resource and it’s on a high cooldown.
• Fix other classes mobility issue
  No, no warrior hating. Stop. But it’s hilarious (not) that even guardians can skyrocket into distance if needed in WvW as a heavy, non-mobile class. We should keep in combat every class, except maybe Thieves but they should have a hard time to escape unstealthed. Of course tone down warriors. They are good, nearly balanced, but over tuned in every possible aspect now.

Dalanor.5387:

And hammer warrior with healing signet is not a problem since summer. Yeah. Not biased at all.

You’re missing the point of my post. Life stealing has been poor for 9 years! At some point you have to let go of the silk glove approach, and start making it useful.

I’m sick and tired of this mechanic being stuck in the mediocre bin because Anet is afraid it will be too powerful. With that line of thought, it will always be broken! Meanwhile they have no problem with letting OP warriors run rampant in their game.

9 years! Give it a big buff already! The balance team has been hiding behind the blast shield for long enough, this mechanic is a dud. And it always will be unless they do something with it.

Dalanor.5387:

with healing signet is not a problem since summer. Yeah. Not biased at all.
____________________________________________________________
on topic:

• Dark path
  Ground targeted teleport, adds aoe chill and blind upon use. 1500 range. Pls?
• Spectral grasp
  Applies chill instantly. Turns into Spectral pul. If you use again, it pulls your foe. Add in a 1 second delay like at Temporal curtain. Or not. Probably not.
• MOAR Torment
  Maybe reduce the overall bleed application in exchange of that to balance out the damage somehow. More or less Necro stays the same with firepower, but a covering bleeds via Torment becomes easier now.
• Tainted Shackles
  Aoe pull, pretty pleeeeeaaaase! Requires resource and it’s on a high cooldown.
• Fix other classes mobility issue
  No, no warrior hating. Stop. But it’s hilarious (not) that even guardians can skyrocket into distance if needed in WvW as a heavy, non-mobile class. We should keep in combat every class, except maybe Thieves but they should have a hard time to escape unstealthed. Of course tone down warriors. They are good, nearly balanced, but over tuned in every possible aspect now.

I think we all want dark path to be a ground targetted, but 1500 range would be too much 1200 or even 900 is more realistic to what they might give us. I’d take 900 over what it is now easy though.

Spectral Grasp could be cool like that, but I still think it should be instant like all of the ground cast teleports.

Torment is something that was supposed to be the necros condition. It was supposed to make us prevelant, but they also added burning which made us op. If they take away burning we might get more torment, but I would also like to see bleeds removed and torment added to some skills.

What they should do is make it pull targets to you if they leave the range of the skill. Currently there isn’t much reason to stay in range, but if we got a pull that would be awesome.

I wont comment on other classes mobility, it is too depressing.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Dalanor.5387:

And hammer warrior with healing signet is not a problem since summer. Yeah. Not biased at all.

You’re missing the point of my post. Life stealing has been poor for 9 years! At some point you have to let go of the silk glove approach, and start making it useful.

I’m sick and tired of this mechanic being stuck in the mediocre bin because Anet is afraid it will be too powerful. With that line of thought, it will always be broken! Meanwhile they have no problem with letting OP warriors run rampant in their game.

9 years! Give it a big buff already! The balance team has been hiding behind the blast shield for long enough, this mechanic is a dud. And it always will be unless they do something with it.

I got it, but you see that build is so annoying and OP that it should be nerfed the second it appeared ingame. Especially that the whole condi cleave and condi spam meta breeded that, which happened due to Dhuumfire and both of us knows how most of the necromancers hate that trait too.

About lifesteal. What if, i mean IF, they completely remove any possible defense from the necro against CC, no stability in any form and … drumrolls … make siphoning absolute viable? Would you or others like it? I still don’t understand while Anet is incapable to handle the healing and damage part separately. If the damage is completely out of hand, reduce it but don’t screw up the healing.
Maybe they should spread out vampiric traits all over the place to avoid the situation that you can grab even more offense beside siphon traits, because if they buffed up enough to keep a necro alive, it’s dangerous to the balance that we can go full nuts and still don’t die. You know, we aren’t warriors.

edit: Or just turn on the man mode and say: necro now is a nuke caster. Or a mob. Or whatever.

Dalanor.5387:

About lifesteal. What if, i mean IF, they completely remove any possible defense from the necro against CC, no stability in any form and … drumrolls … make siphoning absolute viable?

Our access to stability is already that poor. You wouldn’t need to change anything about our defenses right now to achieve that.

The real annoying build in the game right now, is CC-spam. Everyone does it, and it renders people completely helpless as they are getting stun-locked. Stun-locking is way more annoying than a proper lifestealing build could ever hope to be, and it’s all over the game right now.

zapv.8051:

I think we all want dark path to be a ground targetted, but 1500 range would be too much 1200 or even 900 is more realistic to what they might give us. I’d take 900 over what it is now easy though.

Spectral Grasp could be cool like that, but I still think it should be instant like all of the ground cast teleports.

Torment is something that was supposed to be the necros condition. It was supposed to make us prevelant, but they also added burning which made us op. If they take away burning we might get more torment, but I would also like to see bleeds removed and torment added to some skills.

What they should do is make it pull targets to you if they leave the range of the skill. Currently there isn’t much reason to stay in range, but if we got a pull that would be awesome.

I wont comment on other classes mobility, it is too depressing.

It’s gated two times, but the relative low cooldown could be a problem tough. If others are balanced out and we would be able to catch them with the 900 range, it’s okay. If not, increase the range to even 1500.

The instant part is great against some unwanted teleport (thieves still won’t be really affected) and you can pull your enemy back or force a dodge with it.

Exactly. Burning was too much, but with a nice mix of Torment and Bleed it could be fairly balanced. Just the reapplication can be a problem.

Not a bad idea, like it!

Don’t cry, keep it inside! /gives a pack of tissue/

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Dalanor.5387:

About lifesteal. What if, i mean IF, they completely remove any possible defense from the necro against CC, no stability in any form and … drumrolls … make siphoning absolute viable?

Our access to stability is already that poor. You wouldn’t need to change anything about our defenses right now to achieve that.

The real annoying build in the game right now, is CC-spam. Everyone does it, and it renders people completely helpless as they are getting stun-locked. Stun-locking is way more annoying than a proper lifestealing build could ever hope to be, and it’s all over the game right now.

You are still aware of the tought process behind balance decisions, aren’t you? Think about the most impossible and unviable situations that hold that back.
CC spam is okay, since we have “great uptime on stability” with easy acces, since everybody can spend 30 traitpoints. But armor penetrating damage? Naaaah, OP kickbannerf!

I get what you’re saying, but making a life stealing build more vulnerable to CC than we already are is ludicrous.

Look, with life stealing the necromancer is already doing something he would prefer not to do, getting into close combat with his enemies. He’s already taking a big risk. Necromancers are not tanks. We are a light armor class. If you go toe to toe with a heavy, or with a thief, you’re going to get hurt, a lot. You don’t need any more vulnerability to CC for that. You’re already putting your light armor class out there.

Life stealing should be about getting in enough hits, to outheal the damage being done to you. If it can’t do that, it’s useless. That is the whole point of lifestealing. What they should do is add more of a risk-reward system to it. Successfully outhealing your opponent with life stealing should have a strategy to it, that an opponent could possibly counter. It could for example be the interruption of an attack chain, with better healing effects at the end of a continuous chain of hits.

I’ve played a life stealing build in GW1 for as long as I’ve played that game. But GW1 had ranged lifestealing, and they were usually degen hexes that worked over time. There was a hard cap to the amount of degen that could be applied to a foe, which held the mechanic back, as well as kept it in check. But it was always about outhealing the damage being done to you. Of course in GW1 you could interrupt or shutdown a spell. GW2 is lacking in complete shutdown skills.

Swagg.9236:

The trouble about life stealing is that its innately overpowered: it’s a two-fer.

I get that, but unless you run MM it has little value.
The big picture is that there are few options for running “hybrid” builds. The reason hybrid is in quotes is because I think it is the closest thing to balance that a build can achieve. Currently there are very few incentives if none at all for someone to run a hybrid build. I don’t know if Anet had intended for each class to be type casted. I’ll take a stab in the dark and say that they didn’t, that the Control DPS Support mantra was meant to be an even spread. On some levels it was a success, on this particular mechanic it wasn’t. That’s all.

Furienify.5738:

My WvW guild that has to occasionally reverse to save my kitten because I have no leap to keep pace can live with that.

As it stands, sustain is a bit less of an issue because Dhuumfire lets them straight-up beat most classes via burst. Post-nerf, I’m not sure how it’ll go.

I know exactly how you feel. I main necro in wvw and I can’t express how frustrating it is to die that way. Attrition through soft cc and siphons are supposed to be what the class is about.
A leap (or dhuumfire) can never be balanced for a 1v1 / wvw situation the way siphons can, i.e. siphons getting stronger the more enemies there are. Looking at the structure of a wvw guild and how it moves through combat, it is clear that there are frontliners and backliners. The flow of combat is based around which group of frontliners can outmaneuver one another to reach the squishy backline and take out their damage. Leaps, stability, and mass cleansing take away any disadvantage the backline has. So what then? As a backliner your only option is to blow through cooldowns until you get back into position.
That right there is the main reason that I want a buff to siphons. We have frontline tanks. I am convinced we need backline tanks. Necro is in a perfect position to be that, and siphons are the key. This would give the medium armor / glass cannon classes some leeway to fulfill their role.

I also see a great opportunity for the designers here, to break up the zergs. If siphons really scaled well according to the number of enemies around you, people would spread more as soon as a life stealing necro jumped into the fray. And that’s exactly what I would like to see. And it’s what wvw desperately needs. There’s too much balling up in the game as it is.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I also see a great opportunity for the designers here, to break up the zergs. If siphons really scaled well according to the number of enemies around you, people would spread more as soon as a life stealing necro jumped into the fray. And that’s exactly what I would like to see. And it’s what wvw desperately needs. There’s too much balling up in the game as it is.

Should it be scaled up to 5+ people? Or give it “only” a aoe cap with 5 enemy? What about spirits / minions / clones?

I’d say, cap it to 5, and count other people’s spirits/minions/clones as targets too.

How would it encourage to spread out a big blob if you only effective against 5 players?

Hmmm, good point. But if it affects too many players, the healing could become insane. But then again, making the healing really low, would make lifestealing way too weak in single encounters.

So what if we doubled the cap to 10 players, but capped the maximum healing per attack?

Sounds much better.

edit: Or not. In small fights (spvp, roaming) it scales up to the cap against 2 pet class (mesmer, mm necro, spirit ranger) which would make a necro unkillable and with this change a zerg is still capable of steamroll trough your face after Plague wears off.