I am getting a bit annoyed by all the miss information people put out to make their case when it comes to condition damage versus direct damage.
People compare arbitrary different Gears, like Dire vs. Soldier and such things. Then people invest much of their time in calculating what does more damage, when both kinds of damage require often very different ways of offensive and defensive behavior. But I think the main problem with conditions is the perception of them. I am not saying, everything is fairly balanced, some condition damage builds are just over the top, but the main problem is another.
How damage developed in WvW:
I remember after release everyone was running around with berserker gear in WvW and thieves for instance had a blast killing everything with one stun and then insane direct damage. People but soon realized, if they geared a bit more defensively and equip one, or even two stun breakers, they have good chances on taking on this kind of stealth and damage burst. Conditions were around at this time, but were not that big of a deal to most of the players. Builds weren’t “optimized”, and we didn’t see so much extreme builds, as we see today. Also ANet deployed many many balance updates since then.
Then condition builds became more refined, and we saw builds, that were able to do condition bursts, overloading you with many conditions, that people weren’t equipped to deal with. One of the main reasons was that on the utility bar were several stun breakers, but no condition removal. It wasn’t needed before. Condition damage became the new meta and many of the top solo roamers and small guild groups (were it comes into effect the most) adapted. The biggest adaption is but not the usage of super many condition cleanses, but the usage of one condition cleanse, at the right time, the dodge of the condition spikes and such or the passive condition removal via traits or skills, with the right amount of CC.
How to defend yourself against the new meta, that invaded the established play style?
Fighting direct damage builds, you often need to dodge the critical skill chain, what can be done sometimes with even one very good timed dodge in the right direction. To to this, you needed the escape the CC, if you got caught, with stun breakers and dodges you could avoid most of the damage before it hits you. That was the usual “Bushid?” of WvW. It was simple and direct forward. It was easy to understand. Then came the condition damage builds and the usual tactics failed.
Fighting condition damage is different, because conditions builds often reapply the conditions over the whole fight duration. You still need to dodge the conditions spikes, but it is not enough. The equivalent to the stun breaker, to safe yourself, is the condition cleanse. It still has the purpose to prevent potential damage. But other than the classical play style, you needed to wait, until it is worth the usage. If you cleanse too early, you will have cleansed only some of the few conditions and the way is free for the overload burst. If you cleanse too late, you will simply lose to the few conditions your enemy reapplies after cleanse. Here is the actual problem with condition damage. Players can not really figure out, when the optimal moment for the cleanse is, won’t know if they did it too early or too late. The game offers very little indication for you and make it hard for you to figure out the proper strategy.
There are but 3 ways of understanding it. First just keep trying, but that can be very frustrating if you fail to understand the mechanics. Second you can go to sPvP and try certain builds yourself (the most condition dmg builds can easily be made in sPvP) and learn how to play on the other side. And the third way is that you ask your guild mates or friends to help you out (it’s an MMO after all). Ask a mate, who runs a condition build, to duel you and share your experiences after the fight. Simply practice. These are the best ways at the moment to get an understanding of condition builds and how to fight them.
Continued in 2nd post…
What is needed, to balance things out?
The only adaption concerning directly the game mechanics, I see needed, is the change of some food. We need food (and the respective counter food), that gives a duration bonus to a specific condition type and food, that would give a significant smaller bonus to all condition durations. That would help to balance out some of the very and probably overly effective condition damage builds. This change alone but would not address the actual problem of a very limited understanding of the condition mechanic.
Over all we don’t need damage nerfs or buffs (talking about pre April patch). Damage comparisons are mostly useless, due to the very different approaches of both play styles. What is needed is an indicator for the potential condition damage of all the conditions on you. This is the best way for people to understand, when to cleanse and will go a huge way to level the perception of direct damage versus condition damage. You would see, that 3 stacks of bleed and one burning wouldn’t kill you right away and you could withhold the cleansing. After your health indicates, that all the conditions on you would kill you or you would come very close to death, you’d know it’s time. There are problems with conditions like confusion or torment, because their damage depends on the player’s behavior. But I am sure, ANet can find a way how to deal with that.
I agree the comparisons are silly because the damage types are totally different the defenses to them are somewhat different also but do have some similarities like dodges/blocks etc…
It’s usually not the “pro condition” group that brings dire v soldier but the “anti condition” group and then the “pro condition” group does the math for the “anti condition” .
I’ve even seen people say condi’s burst like zerker!
There wasn’t as many sets back then at release like dire but what you said holds true people didn’t understand how to build proper condition builds back then. They went damage over duration didn’t understand things like full second ticks etc.
I think most people shoot for 70+ duration now but I see people on the anti side say condi needs just 1 stat. If duration wasn’t important ppl would run risotto or something. Duration became important because cleanses where so good and you couldn’t pressure that’s when 2/2/2 lyssa, krait,afflicted became the thing, to go with pizza.
Well anyway I kind of went sidetracked but you make some good points. Yes
Yes the damage comparisons are silly I agree.
I may be wrong, but it seems to me, that during your post here, that in your run down you are showing bias against condition damage. I say this because you talk about players needing to use 2 or even 3 stun breakers when you refer to players favoring CC set ups for direct damage attacks.
As you feel the “meta” has changed to conditions, why wouldn’t you offer the suggestion to stacking condition removal in the same manner?
As I see it, the problem with most of the threads on the forums falls into 4 issues. One is that when you read them, most of the time those complaining heavily about conditions go into explanation that are inaccurate and they often appear to be ignorant as to how many of them actually work. The second problem they often display is that they do not build to counter conditions at all and complain that the game should be changed to compliment their current build. Which seems extremely self centered to me. The 3rd issue is that posters have a horrible habit of complaining based on how things feel to them, and not how things actually are. Then make demands based on uninformed perception. The 4th problem is they come and complain about a specific build and make uninformed accusations about, when they do not even know how said build works. Worse then that, it is often simply a build that counters their own, or one they have no counters instituted for in their own build.
I can agree with a fair portion of what your getting at TyPin, and some of it I disagree with. Honestly though, in the end, all your two post appear to be is a smoke screen for you to try to push your agenda of a nerf to food types, when you do not even explain how the specific foods you want nerfed are a problem. The fact of the matter is, those foods are needed to allow condition damage to compete with direct damage. It is not the foods fault that players will build with direct damage in mind and not build to counter the builds they are complaining about that involve conditions.
In reference to your indicator, why do we need an indicator? That seems like an inherent unfair disadvantage to condition damage users. We do not get advanced warning of how much damage that a direct damage attack is about to do to us. Isn’t it more reasonable to let players learn the mechanics of it, or die? They need to learn. I can see where your going with this idea, and I almost want to support it. I just cannot get past the idea of adding passive indicators to hold the hands of players who refuse to adjust, learn the game, and change their old habits to adopt to it.
First, the nerf of food is not really my main point. That is, why I didn’t explain it in detail. To not distract from my main point, I won’t comment on the actual thought behind it. Maybe it would have been better, to not have even mentioned it. Too late now :P
The reason I wasn’t saying: “Equip many more cleanses”, simply was my opinion, that it isn’t needed with the current meta. I simply wanted to point to the “evolution” of the game mechanics and why condition is perceived they way it is.
The implementation of an indicator for potential condition damage is imo very important. Many of the hard bursting direct damage attacks, or the first attack of a direct damage chain has an animation or a kind of trigger, so you know: it’s time to dodge now. People understand that fairly quickly, no matter if new or veteran. But people (especially the newer ones) are simply overwhelmed by a half decent condition user, because the effect of the conditions are not easy to spot in the action of a fight.
Now the question is, what would you rather have implemented in the game? An indicator allowing people to understand the mechanics of condition damage, so they stop complaining. Or eventual condition damage nerfs following the consistent complaints of those, who don’t understand conditions (not saying that all complaints against conditions are based on not understanding). ANet must in the end make the call, on what they find the better way. But you shouldn’t allow your player base to be dissatisfied and eventually leave the game, because they did not understand some of the mechanics.
Condition damage builds, in my experience, are the strongest in the lower levels of player skill. In the top levels, players understand the need of the right build composition and adequate use of condition cleanses. So the indicator wouldn’t really effect them much.
Maybe a compromise can be made. A training mode (in PvP maybe) allowing you to fight other players or NPCs with a condition damage indicator turned on, to help you understand the the mechanics. This indicator would then not be there in PvP matches, that actually award you glory or in any other game mode.
In my honest opinion, there is a very low risk high reward going a condi build in small scale roaming. Most classes save ele or guardian have a potent condi build which can be very overbearing in these type of situations, even if you build the most amount of condition cleanse/- duration possible.
To suggest that people complaining about conditions pack no condition removal whatsoever is a very ignorant statement and is far from the truth. And I think it is quite the opposite in terms of somebody mentioning math between dire vs soldier.
Somebody from the pro-condition school of thought tends to bring up math vs direct damage to justify that conditions arent > direct damage when that isn’t even half of the issue. But I agree with you on the thought that it is two very different playstyles and I can attest to that and it isn’t necessarily the damage although it does play a large part into it.
I have an 80 warrior and have gear for both direct damage and a condition build. As a condition build, I feel as if I can build a lot more tankier then going for a direct damage build and still attain a respectable amount of DPS. With 5 stacks of bleed and burn (which isn’t difficult to keep on a target) that is about 1,500 dps which I find to be pretty good. Due to how readily bleeds can be applied and how long they last, even speccing for full condition removal cannot nearly keep up with how fast and how long they apply. The fact that I can force somebody to use condi removal, reapply conditions, then switch to another target while that one person is taking like 1,500 damage for 5-10 seconds is a pretty good luxury to have.
Now this 1,500 mark is easily attainable, and only using two damage conditions at that. And it is every second where as with direct damage builds, in many cases single hits don’t even hit for that much and you aren’t always hitting your opponent every second, where as with may two or three hits, you attain that 5 stacks of bleed with burning and can miss every single attack after but that damage is still be applied over a said amount of time and it is dealing a lot.
Another issue is sometimes is cover conditions. Classes apply plenty of cover conditions like weakness, vulnerability, chill, cripple, etc which makes it really difficult to remove the conditions that are really putting a hurt on you. Many skills remove, 1, 2 or 3 conditions. However this isn’t very useful when you can’t cleanse the burns, bleeds and torments that are on you because of other conditions.
Another thing you can point at is the additional effects that conditions have. Condition builds tend to spec for more overall variety and duration of conditions. Variety of conditions, like I have explained before to act as cover conditions for bleeds, etc. Now people will argue that hey, direct damage builds can have as much access to conditions like chill, cripple, immobilize, weakness, etc as a condition build. But do they last as long? Can a direct damage build afford to have access to more variety of conditions and duration while trying to build Power, Precision, Crit dmg, etc? In many cases that answer is no.
Weakness can completely shutdown a direct damage build. Poison significantly reduces healing while dealing damage. Confusion, especially with perplexity runes can be difficult to deal with. It puts you in a lose lose situation. If you have 10 stacks of confusion, you have to make a choice of whether to attack, or take 2K+ of confusion damage for each attack used. Now in a vacuum, this isn’t necessarily a problem, but with other conditions being put on you, like I said it can be very overbearing, even when specced for the most amount of condition removal. Torment, you take extra damage while moving, and it hurts a lot. So you have to make the decision of whether to move or not, which is also a lose lose situation. For example, a Mesmer scepter block applies 5 stacks of torment on you and is like a 10 second cooldown. 5 stacks of torment easily does 1K+ dmg a second while moving.
That can make "condition bombing" somebody very effective. There is very little counter to this. Not only do they have some form of soft CC on them, they are taking lots of damage, if they remove the soft CC, they are doomed to taking the full brunt of the damaging conditions, if they remove the damaging conditions, they are more susceptible to taking more hits.
(edited by killahmayne.9518)
However I feel condition dmg is underwhelming in zergs because of the amount of AoE condition removal and combo fields. Perhaps if ANet found a way to tone down AoE condition removal, this wouldn’t be so much of a problem. But at the same token, I feel like there should be more skills like Signet of Stamina, or the Lyssa rune effects which remove all conditions, but they are on hefty cooldowns. And change some skills to remove 2-3 conditions instead of one, but put them on a 5-10 second longer cooldown. This would give more people incentive to not rely on other people for their condition removal in zergs, they are forced to pack their own. But at the same token, allow more counterplay.
And they should reduce the +/- condition duration food. It is stupid how one single food can solve the problem of condition duration for a condition build. Or how one food can put that down to very low durations. It should be around 15-20% IMO.
It is no coincidence that most of the strongest and hardest to beat/kill roaming builds are actually condi builds, and are in nature low risk/low learning curve and high reward.
Mesmer? Condi. Warrior? Condi. Engi? Condi. Thieves? Condi. Ranger? Condi.
You can make an argument for Terrormancers, and even condi eles. Guardians have no viable condi build.
However they tend to drastically lose their effectiveness in zerg fights.
(edited by killahmayne.9518)
I think the main point of the OP is that people time their reactions to conditions horridly. There are two times to react against a condition build: when the attack is actually being made (huh, just like power builds) and that sweet spot of when the condition removal will be most effective, yet still not leave you nearly dead.
I’ve actually taken to roaming as a power necro recently with my only condition removal being Consume Conditions (because let’s face it, it’s the only necro heal worth using as a roamer). I have only the base value of Vitality (all Knight’s gear), yet I never feel overwhelmed with conditions. In fact, the only fights I’ve lost to a condition build were extremely long and drawn out where I almost killed them in return. I do this with a single cleanse because I learned from my time playing as a condition necro exactly when that “sweet spot” is.
To suggest that people complaining about conditions pack no condition removal whatsoever is a very ignorant statement and is far from the truth. And I think it is quite the opposite in terms of somebody mentioning math between dire vs soldier.
Actually they very regularly admit to not having condition counters in almost all of the “nerf conditions” threads. So I hardly believe it is ignorant in the least, when they are pointing it out themselves.
Nice try though.
To suggest that people complaining about conditions pack no condition removal whatsoever is a very ignorant statement and is far from the truth. And I think it is quite the opposite in terms of somebody mentioning math between dire vs soldier.
Actually they very regularly admit to not having condition counters in almost all of the "nerf conditions" threads. So I hardly believe it is ignorant in the least, when they are pointing it out themselves.
Nice try though.
Which actually isn’t true, and even if it was there would be just as many people that admit to packing a whole lot of condition removal and still realize that conditions need tweaking, changes and overhauling. And people admitting to not having condition counters is also within the context of class balance issues.
It isn’t just people that don’t pack condition removal that are suggesting changes to conditions. Do you deny that? If not then it is an ignorant statement/assumption to make plain and simple.
But hey I guess we are all naive according to you and we all make threads along the lines of "I got 1,900 armor and I got backstabbed for 12K by a Thief Nerf Thieves now". Maybe out of all of these threads and posts somebody actually has a point? All of us can’t be stupid can we? God forbid maybe there is actually a legitmate reason and good points to back it up *gasp*.
(edited by killahmayne.9518)
Which actually isn’t true, and even if it was there would be just as many people that admit to packing a whole lot of condition removal and still realize that conditions need tweaking, changes and overhauling. And people admitting to not having condition counters is also within the context of class balance issues.
Actually it is true. go look at the last 5 threads on the topic. What makes it funny is you do not even know. You literally just posted it was untrue without even checking (got to love posters who make random guesses and pretend it is fact)
What facts or evidence are you using to suggest conditions need “tweaking”???
It isn’t just people that don’t pack condition removal that are suggesting changes to conditions. Do you deny that? If not then it is an ignorant statement/assumption to make plain and simple.
You sure appear to be trying to use a hateful tone in your comments. That suggest you are aware your supplying no evidence for your claims and question it if you ask me. But yeah when 3,000,000 people have this game and the same 25 keep making threads and posting them over and over, I tend to go with the other 2,999,975 who either are not complaining about or who are disagreeing with you.
But hey I guess we are all naive according to you and we all make threads along the lines of “I got 1,900 armor and I got backstabbed for 12K by a Thief Nerf Thieves now”. Maybe out of all of these threads and posts somebody actually has a point? All of us can’t be stupid can we? God forbid maybe there is actually a legitmate reason and good points to back it up gasp.
When it is the same very small handful of people posting or making the condi complain threads over and over, and everyone (including you) offer no actual facts, evidence or comparative information to support it. It is cute though, how you try to imply others are calling anyone “stupid” or “naive”. Now that you mention though, Yeah it may be a bit naive to regurgitate a small and select few complaints repeatedly and offer no actual facts or comparisons, while ignoring video comparisons and damage comparisons to the contrary.
(edited by coglin.1867)
@killahmayne.9518:
I never said, that people complaining don’t use a condition cleanses. My point is, that the stun-power play evolved earlier than the condition play. So the usage of stun breakers is more common. If the condition play would be the older play style, people would use more condition cleanses and probably would complain about all the stuns players can put out. This is a highly theoretical discussion and might not be quite accurate. It is a theory, that can’t be proven right or wrong.
What I am actually saying about the current play style, is that people, even if they equip condition cleanses, don’t use them properly, due to the lack of indicators for the player. Simply showing the condition stacks, is not enough. I am not saying, that everything is completely balanced. But before we think about the actual balance issues, we need to make it easier to deal with condition damage perception unless we want to overcompensate. There are some balance issues, but condition damage and direct damage are more in line, than people present them to be.
And of course you have much survivability with a condition damage build. It is not a positive side effect, it is a necessity for condition builds. As well as it is a necessity with power burst builds to kill your opponent in a very short time. It is their offense and part of their defense so to say. Those different surviving strategies are competing with each other. And when we talk about the offensive capabilities of a build, we need to talk about it’s defensive ones as well. But without a wider proper understanding of such issues, the discussions are pointless and people will keep talking past each other. Without wanting to offend you, you kinda proof my point of not properly understanding or presenting the condition play. Meanwhile, your over usage of the word “ignorant” doesn’t help your argument…
(edited by TyPin.9860)
Coglin kind of does have a point usually people only post if something is bothering them not if everything is ok. Someone posts they lost to a condi build or they make another post about conditions and it is usually the same people discussing and saying mostly the same thing in a different thread me included.
There was a thread posted by a guy asking if there are these op builds out there what builds aren’t OP. It was a legit question you know what the answers where?
Any ranger build, Ele, and Meditation guardian basically anything that is usually considered weak in roaming. So if every build is OP doesn’t that make it balanced?
It is far more interesting to disagree then it is to pat each other the back and agree.
Everyone feels their point is more important then the other ones even though they are basically saying the same thing. This OP isn’t like the other 900 threads that say the same thing and have the same people debating back and forth.
I personally think anet looks at conditions like thieves people complain about them since launch(thieves). They won’t change conditions and how they work just like they havent changed thieves. They might nerf a skill here and there but they aren’t going to nerf how it functions which is what many people are hoping for.
(edited by oZii.2864)
The damage of conditions isn’t even the bulk of the issue.
It’s the fact that most professions that build around conditions have access to a wide variety of them, meaning not only are you dealing with the damage they apply, but also the utility they offer (ie. weakness, cripple, poison, chill, fear, blind, etc). Not only can conditions builds attain bunker-like stats via dire equipment, but they can optimize their damage output through consumables and trait lines, and then on top of all of that have plenty of conditions that focus on “status effects”.
Condition duration doesn’t even need to exist on weapons, armor, or trinkets, because most condition specs gain enough via traits, trait lines, and food. Meaning they can go full dire with a splash of precision via something like rabid gear, if required.
Power builds? No power build gains all of its power, precision, or critical damage purely through consumables or trait lines. All three of those stats have to exist on their armor/weapons/trinkets, or their damage output will be mediocre.
There’s a disparity in risk-reward when it comes to power builds vs. condition builds in PvP game modes (small-scale WvW/roaming, and tPvP).
Don’t know if I agree
Many popular builds slack on 1 of the main offensive direct damage stats either precision or crit damage if you can stack might easily you can slack on power. Most people slack on precision because they grab their precision modifier(either flat out modifier when x condition is met or fury uptime). Not everyone is running around in full zerker so people must be slacking on one of the offensive stats otherwise everyone would be in full zerk.
(edited by oZii.2864)
I agree with that Condition builds need some fixes.
1. You’re right about the food. +40% duration on all conditions is ridiculously overpowered. Make people chose what type of condition they want to focus on.
2. Countering conditions is mostly down to traits and class mechanics, not active play. Unlike direct damage dodging and active combat won’t help you much against conditions. How well you deal with them is almost entirely down to your build. There is no active mitigation.
3. Most condition dumps are very poorly telegraphed. A single Engineer auto-attack can apply 5 different conditions at times. Signet of Spite has a barely visible animation and no projectile you could actively dodge.
4. Lack of trade-offs: Condition builds allow you to stack insane survivability and avoidance with high damage. It’s not a very compelling play-style and rarely involves acting or reacting to your enemies moves.
In general the condition play-style goes entirely against the whole “active combat” ideal ANet established for Guild Wars 2.
I know people running very successfully with only power/critical damage/toughness builds, while getting all precision through food and traits, so that argument doesn’t hold up. But it is anyway too theoretical, if we have not a wider understanding of condition damage mechanics in the community.
The food buff needs some tweaking, I agree, however, that is not the main point of that thread. And the non damaging conditions are available on power builds as well. Even the condition cover effect helps you to maintain long duration immobilize on certain power builds and it is not an argument against condition damage builds alone but represents a different issue.
Confusing certain issues has made discussions in the past destructive and led to talking past each other over and over again.
I agree with that Condition builds need some fixes.
1. You’re right about the food. +40% duration on all conditions is ridiculously overpowered. Make people chose what type of condition they want to focus on.
2. Countering conditions is mostly down to traits and class mechanics, not active play. Unlike direct damage dodging and active combat won’t help you much against conditions. How well you deal with them is almost entirely down to your build. There is no active mitigation.
3. Most condition dumps are very poorly telegraphed. A single Engineer auto-attack can apply 5 different conditions at times. Signet of Spite has a barely visible animation and no projectile you could actively dodge.
4. Lack of trade-offs: Condition builds allow you to stack insane survivability and avoidance with high damage. It’s not a very compelling play-style and rarely involves acting or reacting to your enemies moves.
In general the condition play-style goes entirely against the whole “active combat” ideal ANet established for Guild Wars 2.
This is 100% what I was going to say. Also, fighting cond specs is not a battle of attrition they can burst almost as heavily as power specs.
I agree with that Condition builds need some fixes.
1. You’re right about the food. +40% duration on all conditions is ridiculously overpowered. Make people chose what type of condition they want to focus on.
2. Countering conditions is mostly down to traits and class mechanics, not active play. Unlike direct damage dodging and active combat won’t help you much against conditions. How well you deal with them is almost entirely down to your build. There is no active mitigation.
3. Most condition dumps are very poorly telegraphed. A single Engineer auto-attack can apply 5 different conditions at times. Signet of Spite has a barely visible animation and no projectile you could actively dodge.
4. Lack of trade-offs: Condition builds allow you to stack insane survivability and avoidance with high damage. It’s not a very compelling play-style and rarely involves acting or reacting to your enemies moves.
In general the condition play-style goes entirely against the whole “active combat” ideal ANet established for Guild Wars 2.
You play into the argument I made originally. Proper perception of condition damage mechanics is limited in the community. With an indicator of potential condition damage, I predict, it would be easier for people to understand how they work and the perception of the direct vs condition damage play style would be more leveled.
(edited by TyPin.9860)
Also, fighting cond specs is not a battle of attrition they can burst almost as heavily as power specs.
That I don’t believe. I have never seen in practice a condition build causing 10k damage via burst. I am not even sure that is possible in theory. They can deal huge amounts of damage, after they have stacked up the conditions on you after time. But that is no burst. Please elaborate on your claim.
That I don’t believe. I have never seen in practice a condition build causing 10k damage via burst. I am not even sure that is possible in theory. They can deal huge amounts of damage, after they have stacked up the conditions on you after time. But that is no burst. Please elaborate on your claim.
I don’t know if this count as a real condi burst, but being able to deal +15k condition damage in 10s is pretty huge.
@~2:45
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGkjY5s9yMg
I agree with that Condition builds need some fixes.
1. You’re right about the food. +40% duration on all conditions is ridiculously overpowered. Make people chose what type of condition they want to focus on.
2. Countering conditions is mostly down to traits and class mechanics, not active play. Unlike direct damage dodging and active combat won’t help you much against conditions. How well you deal with them is almost entirely down to your build. There is no active mitigation.
3. Most condition dumps are very poorly telegraphed. A single Engineer auto-attack can apply 5 different conditions at times. Signet of Spite has a barely visible animation and no projectile you could actively dodge.
4. Lack of trade-offs: Condition builds allow you to stack insane survivability and avoidance with high damage. It’s not a very compelling play-style and rarely involves acting or reacting to your enemies moves.
In general the condition play-style goes entirely against the whole “active combat” ideal ANet established for Guild Wars 2.
I think no one could explain it better with such few words. For me, worst issues are #3 and #4.
2 is not completely true. Some professions don’t have very good passive condition cleanse through traits, so they rely only on active defense.
(edited by Ansau.7326)
I know people running very successfully with only power/critical damage/toughness builds, while getting all precision through food and traits, so that argument doesn’t hold up. But it is anyway too theoretical, if we have not a wider understanding of condition damage mechanics in the community.
Just take a second and look at the trait lines. A fully-specced trait line will give you 30% Condition Duration or 300 Power/Precision/whatever stat.
The food gives 40% Condition duration. That’s the equivalent of 400 Power. Where is the food that gives 400 Power? I must have missed it.
The + Condition Duration food is insanely overpowered even compared to regular condition enhancing food. It’s like it was balanced for a different game entirely.
Condition duration =/= Power or precision
This debate makes no sense since you guys want zerker builds to be top notch and unbeatable. Sure why don’t we all go full zerker and run around spamming hundred blades at each other. You guys also have your food which gives you your boost so stop kittening. You can not say cond dur = power or prec. The game does not work like that. The fact that a lot of players don’t know how to counter (myself included) conditions, does not mean that it ( or its food) should be nerfed. I use a trapper ranger without food yet I am pretty happy with my result. I still sometimes die to other condi buils and power builds. And the idea for an indicator… WTF man. Sure let the game tell you when to use your skills or even better let the game do it for you. Then let condi users have an indicator when to dodge. All the talk about skill. Where is the skill in power builds? I tried a power warrior ( before I used condis) and it sucked. Condis are in a good place right now the only problem is that a lot of people don’t want to adapt or learn. They go on the forums and whine about how they can’t handle a condi build. (Not intended directly towards OP or others here but to the general public) Admit it. You just want the power meta back. The game is flat as it is the last thing we need it a power only meta.
Which actually isn’t true, and even if it was there would be just as many people that admit to packing a whole lot of condition removal and still realize that conditions need tweaking, changes and overhauling. And people admitting to not having condition counters is also within the context of class balance issues.
Actually it is true. go look at the last 5 threads on the topic. What makes it funny is you do not even know. You literally just posted it was untrue without even checking (got to love posters who make random guesses and pretend it is fact)
What facts or evidence are you using to suggest conditions need "tweaking"???
It isn’t just people that don’t pack condition removal that are suggesting changes to conditions. Do you deny that? If not then it is an ignorant statement/assumption to make plain and simple.
You sure appear to be trying to use a hateful tone in your comments. That suggest you are aware your supplying no evidence for your claims and question it if you ask me. But yeah when 3,000,000 people have this game and the same 25 keep making threads and posting them over and over, I tend to go with the other 2,999,975 who either are not complaining about or who are disagreeing with you.
But hey I guess we are all naive according to you and we all make threads along the lines of "I got 1,900 armor and I got backstabbed for 12K by a Thief Nerf Thieves now". Maybe out of all of these threads and posts somebody actually has a point? All of us can’t be stupid can we? God forbid maybe there is actually a legitmate reason and good points to back it up *gasp*.
When it is the same very small handful of people posting or making the condi complain threads over and over, and everyone (including you) offer no actual facts, evidence or comparative information to support it. It is cute though, how you try to imply others are calling anyone "stupid" or "naive". Now that you mention though, Yeah it may be a bit naive to regurgitate a small and select few complaints repeatedly and offer no actual facts or comparisons, while ignoring video comparisons and damage comparisons to the contrary.
You always talk about facts, facts, facts, yet you offer none of your own. It is pretty funny actually. You supply nothing and admonish people for not doing the same thing and your whole basis for conditions being balanced is conditions > direct damage and soldier > dire. Hilarious. You talk about where are my facts for Conditions needing tweaking, where are yours? I just stated the reality, did you not read my two posts or are you are too blind to see?
Where are your facts that conditions don’t need tweaking? Fact is the whole game needs a tweaking, from stealth, to power, to PvE imbalances, conditions, etc so I don’t get your point here. Show me why they are perfectly balanced and don’t need any changes whatsoever. Why do people run mostly power builds in zergs or PvE? Why are there more well-o-mancers using power then condition/terrormancers? Does that not indicate any tweaking? Why can conditions in a WvW environment reach ridiculous damage levels to the point where it can be considered burst while having very little opportunity to remove them? These are just examples as to why the system needs tweaking. Milkzzz offered a pretty good commentary on the state of conditions and how they are, forgot what thread though but I will look it up.
And people not complaining about a system doesn’t mean there isn’t anything wrong with it. It doesn’t mean that they don’t acknowledge a problem. That is a pretty flawed argument considering compared to the amount of players that are in this game, very, very little of them use the forums, and some don’t really pay mind to the balance or care to voice their opinions.
So I guess, according to your logic, every complaint on here is unjustified due to the fact that these 3 million other players aren’t complaining so it must be OK.
That I don’t believe. I have never seen in practice a condition build causing 10k damage via burst. I am not even sure that is possible in theory. They can deal huge amounts of damage, after they have stacked up the conditions on you after time. But that is no burst. Please elaborate on your claim.
I don’t know if this count as a real condi burst, but being able to deal +15k condition damage in 10s is pretty huge.
At least half of that damage looks like it comes from direct damage and confusion procs.
Just take a second and look at the trait lines. A fully-specced trait line will give you 30% Condition Duration or 300 Power/Precision/whatever stat.
The food gives 40% Condition duration. That’s the equivalent of 400 Power. Where is the food that gives 400 Power? I must have missed it.
The + Condition Duration food is insanely overpowered even compared to regular condition enhancing food. It’s like it was balanced for a different game entirely.
This is part of the problem statements like 40% condition duration = 400 Power! What?
The damage types are totally different heck every stat in the game is totally different.
Player A has +5000000% condition duration(not possible but for dramatic effect)
Player B has +0% condition duration
They proc a bleed that are both wiped after 2 seconds(the base is 4 seconds) = They both did the same damage
Damage done = (Weapon strength) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)
Player A has 1200 + 400 power
Power Player B has 1200
weapon strength 1000
Target 2600 Armor
Player A did 1475 Backstab immediately
Player B did 1108 Backstab immediately
No stat is the same in the entire game it’s a losing argument to try to even somehow make power and condition damage the same. They aren’t the same except they do damage and that is some conditions not all. The defense isn’t the same.
(edited by oZii.2864)
1. You’re right about the food. +40% duration on all conditions is ridiculously overpowered. Make people chose what type of condition they want to focus on.
Okay, Your making the claim it is OP, Well how so? You mention engineer. Would you Agree that P/S is a popular weapon set for engineers? Let what this OP food ads to the known condition weapon set.
Explosive shot – 2s bleed X 40% duration gives you a 2s bleed
Poison dart volley – 2s poison X 40% duration gives you a 2s poison.
Static shot – 2stacks of confusion for 3s X 40% durations adds 1s for 4s of confusions.
Magnetic shield – knock back, no condition
Static shield – Stun 2s X40% duration gives you a 2s stun.
So for what my experience tells me is the most common weapon set for the engineer literally gets ZERO damage out of this food directly.
2. Countering conditions is mostly down to traits and class mechanics, not active play. Unlike direct damage dodging and active combat won’t help you much against conditions. How well you deal with them is almost entirely down to your build. There is no active mitigation.
This is about as misinformed as it gets. Your telling us if you dodge out the an engineers fire bomb that does 2s of 750 burning, that you did not just dodge 1500 damage? It is another 10s before that skill can be used again. You do not have a single fact to support this completely illogical claim. To claim dodging doesn’t mitigate condition damage is just plain irrational.
Condition removal is skill you have to activate. So we now know dodges, blocks, condition cleanses, all have to be activated. There are 57 condition removals that must be actively activated. Direct damages main counter is toughness. Talk about lack of active play to mitigate damage.
3. Most condition dumps are very poorly telegraphed. A single Engineer auto-attack can apply 5 different conditions at times. Signet of Spite has a barely visible animation and no projectile you could actively dodge.
You want to mention engineer, Your suggesting that its harder hiring attacks do not have a telegraph. Now your being intentional obtuse, or intentional forgetful. Bombs and grenades are the professions main condition appliers. Bombs have a 1/2s cast time and a 1 1/2 s fuse time. That is a solid 2s telegraph. Grenades have a 1/2s cast time and a 1.75s time from the throwing animation until they reach impact at its max range. Giving a 2.25s telegraph.
Signet of spite does not represent all condition damage across all professions. I can list you more skills with knockbacks, stuns, knock downs, blow outs, daze, and stun with as bad telegraphs. To sit here and claim only condition skills have specific attacks with poor telegraph is very poorly thought out and a display of extreme cherry picking.
4. Lack of trade-offs: Condition builds allow you to stack insane survivability and avoidance with high damage. It’s not a very compelling play-style and rarely involves acting or reacting to your enemies moves.
This claim is tossed around by folks making claims time after time. Prove it. I have yet to see a damage comparison of a condition hater to a direct damage of equal defense across 3 levels of gear that displays this. Yet we have damage comparisons from posters such as myself and GuanglaiKangyi that show otherwise.
In general the condition play-style goes entirely against the whole “active combat” ideal ANet established for Guild Wars 2.
As it is a fact that Dodges and blocks both negate direct damage and condition damage equally, and there 57 skills that must be activated to mitigate condition damage, and only 15 activate able skills that mitigate direct damage. It is a fact that condition damage has 73% more active skills available to mitigate its damage then direct damage.
You always talk about facts, facts, facts, yet you offer none of your own. It is pretty funny actually. You supply nothing and admonish people for not doing the same thing and your whole basis for conditions being balanced is conditions > direct damage and soldier > dire. Hilarious. You talk about where are my facts for Conditions needing tweaking, where are yours? I just stated the reality, did you not read my two posts or are you are too blind to see?
You mean like the fact that we have 13 conditions. The fact that 8 of those conditions do not actively do any damage what so ever. The fact those facts display is that 87.5 of the conditions available offer literally Zero inherent damage? Or the fact that (4 threads ago on this topic) a poster made 4 damage comparison videos of necro specific damage comparisons that you refuse to search out yourself?
(edited by coglin.1867)
Also, fighting cond specs is not a battle of attrition they can burst almost as heavily as power specs.
That I don’t believe. I have never seen in practice a condition build causing 10k damage via burst. I am not even sure that is possible in theory. They can deal huge amounts of damage, after they have stacked up the conditions on you after time. But that is no burst. Please elaborate on your claim.
If condition builds really needed lots of time to build damage, wouldn’t sustain bunkers with good condi removal be the natural predators of any condition build? I mean my bunker ele has never died to a soldier anything, which people claim out-damages condition builds. For the record, I’ve run into power builds that I can literally tank (no, I’m not even talking about up-arrows here). There are times when I take a warrior’s full hundred blades and laugh. There are thieves that I let backstab me for about 5 or 6k. I have no doubt that gear differences play a role sometimes, but it still shows that power damage without significant trait and gear investment is not a threat. My bunker ele with 3 major traits that remove conditions, cleansing fire and high sustain healing still dies easily to condi necros and engineers. I would never stand there and let a condi build hit me with anything because even though I have traits and skills that should directly counter their build, I know I have to completely outplay them just to stand a chance.
I want someone to explain how conditions, a supposed attrition mechanic, can be balanced when a build that is meant to survive for long periods of time and cleanse conditions relatively frequently has more trouble with condition builds than any power build. Remember, this is about wvw, a place where people can break 2k condi damage.
I want someone to explain how conditions, a supposed attrition mechanic, can be balanced when a build that is meant to survive for long periods of time and cleanse conditions relatively frequently has more trouble with condition builds than any power build. Remember, this is about wvw, a place where people can break 2k condi damage.
I don’t know what your running I assume standard D/D 0/10/0/30/30 not sure what your wearing but with a mix of clerics gear, boon duration runes, and a little bit of soldiers mixed in I can make conditions builds a joke and fight them for a good 10 minutes I’ve dueled in that setup against engineers, necros, p/d thieves and as long as I don’t overly aggressive at the wrong time(which would happen against power builds) I can fight them forever and never die. PU mesmer is a total waste of time because they don’t put out enough pressure and my hands get tired. It takes a while but I can actually win the fight also.
If your bunker not alot of power builds can kill you that is what conditions do unbunker bunker builds but you can make your bunker build make conditions a joke.
Signet of spite does not represent all condition damage across all professions. I can list you more skills with knockbacks, stuns, knock downs, blow outs, daze, and stun with as bad telegraphs. To sit here and claim only condition skills have specific attacks with poor telegraph is very poorly thought out and a display of extreme cherry picking.
Signet of Spite is also very well telegraphed. The signet image appears over the necro’s head during the entire cast.
I mean, I suppose that if you aren’t looking at the necro, you wouldn’t see it coming with time to dodge, but isn’t that true with every skill?
If condition builds really needed lots of time to build damage, wouldn’t sustain bunkers with good condi removal be the natural predators of any condition build?
Not if they don’t use condition cleanse properly. Condition damage becomes more dangerous, the longer the fight goes on. Eventually the conditions will have stacked and be impossible to deal with. That is why the proper placed condition cleanse is imperative to fight condition builds, so that you will have chances to stand your own in a battle of attrition.
@all:
People seem to misunderstand this thread as a thread of condition damage defense or condition vs. direct damage, when it is not. I have admitted balance issues, including food. However, people bring it up again and again.
But what I am actually saying is, that I think we need an indicator on the health “bar” of the potential damage of all the conditions stacked on you at the moment to make people understand, how conditions work. Because this is still the biggest issue and is shown by several players in this thread and in others over and over again. In the community persists a huge misunderstanding of the actual mechanics of condition damage.
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