Guild Wars 2

Kyon.9735:

Haha don’t worry that was just a sarcasm post. There are a lot of warriors in denial of how OP their mobility is and they’d cry foul if this change were to happen because right now, they have High Defense and High Mobility and a change like this would only mean a nerf to them. Of course as a person who plays another class, I’d love to try this out.

Of course, to them they are just balanced.

I do think that opening up all Armor types could work. It would take adjustments to the classes, personally not the health of all of them being equal. I do think that Ele need to go up, Mesmer, Warrior need to go down.

If they normalized the armor, then adjusted certain classes defenses giving a tweak here and there this could really open up some very interesting build options

Swagger.1459:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Substance E.4852:

Then feel free to not troll the forums presenting opinions on class difficulty as fact that should be balanced around.

would you kindly please not accuse me of trolling the forums? i have every right to express my opinion in these forums. accusing me of trolling the forums is totally uncalled for.

the fact is, not everyone can play guardian properly. at least this is the case for me. therefore, guardian can be classified as one of the professions not so easy to play.

but a lot of people can play warrior easily. hence, warrior is one of the easier professions to play.

Swagger.1459:

and why is playing your guardian in spvp a no no

for starters, i do not know when to use the f1 f2 f3 skills, normally i just spam them together with the 90 seconds recharge time invulnerability skill when i feel like my guardian is going to die. the low base health does not allow many rooms for error. my latency is around 200ms – 300ms so playing warrior or other easier professions is much preferred for myself.

i heard people say, for guardians, you need to time your aegis or something, for those big attacks etc. i can never get that right in sPvP.

also, the concept of lowest health pool is not very appealing for me. same reason why i do not play an elementalist.

a game like this should be all about accessibility not alienation, and you have just made a huge case for streamlining profession controls and normalizing hp.

oh Swagger please dun twist my words would ya?

i said guardian is hard for me, but i am sure there are others who are very familiar with guardian. guardian may be hard for me, but for those who play guardians exclusively, i think not.

Carighan.6758:

The idea is thematically important ofc. Necromancers having very high health fits well, especially compared to the pure powerhouses fantasy lore displays for elementalism-wielding mages, who in turn are rather frail.

The underlying problem with trying to build mage classes based on lore is that in every MMO I’ve played, the mage classes usually get balanced to keep the frailty without the superior damage, even if they start out matching lore. This is even done to the point that they always re-brand the mage classes at some point (or even multiple points), and in many cases, render the classes inferior.

Necromancers usually stick closer to lore, but only because it balances the fact that they generally also follow lore by sacrificing health to cast many of their spells. This is not the case in GW2, so there is no particular reason why they need so much HP relative to others, particularly considering they get death shroud.

ATMAvatar.5749:

so there is no particular reason why they need so much HP relative to others, particularly considering they get death shroud.

How about the glaring reason: Thery have NO other defense. They can’t escape a fight, they have no mobility. They have no stealth, no Immunity, no insane mobility, no passive health regen.

They have Three things to keep them alive:

1) High Health – Can only do so much
2) DeathShroud – Gets WORSE the more it is focused
3) 7second Protection on 60 second cool down – Amazing.

They also have VERY little access to stability so they are VERY easily CCed to death. They have PLENTY of reasons why they have and NEED high health.

Stx.4857:

I completely agree. 10.5k is way too low and it makes balancing hard in PvE.

I suggest the gaps be: 14k, 16k, 18k.

/signed (Necro)

Paulie.6215:

Samhayn.2385:

Paulie.6215:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

…so why should one condition class be punished and the others ignored?

Because the necro as a “condition class” can approach 40k ups with one key press.

40k health and can be perma ccd to death.

Spec better? Not sure what else to tell you.

All classes can be “perma ccd to death” necro isn’t special in this regard. 40k hp makes it way easier to survive.

Death shroud should get a 50% reduction in hp or have a 1 min cool down.

Condi spec necros can not take the 30 point need to get 3 secs of stability that is the only access to stability they have. Now powernecro may get it but that was not what you where talking about. Please learn more about a class before you tell people to spec better. Or you know get condition cleanse.

Samhayn.2385:

Condi spec necros can not take the 30 point need to get 3 secs of stability that is the only access to stability they have. Now powernecro may get it but that was not what you where talking about. Please learn more about a class before you tell people to spec better. Or you know get condition cleanse.

Even Powermancers won’t take that, i mean 30 trait points for 3 second stability every 10 seconds is PATHETIC.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Swagger.1459:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Substance E.4852:

Then feel free to not troll the forums presenting opinions on class difficulty as fact that should be balanced around.

would you kindly please not accuse me of trolling the forums? i have every right to express my opinion in these forums. accusing me of trolling the forums is totally uncalled for.

the fact is, not everyone can play guardian properly. at least this is the case for me. therefore, guardian can be classified as one of the professions not so easy to play.

but a lot of people can play warrior easily. hence, warrior is one of the easier professions to play.

Swagger.1459:

and why is playing your guardian in spvp a no no

for starters, i do not know when to use the f1 f2 f3 skills, normally i just spam them together with the 90 seconds recharge time invulnerability skill when i feel like my guardian is going to die. the low base health does not allow many rooms for error. my latency is around 200ms – 300ms so playing warrior or other easier professions is much preferred for myself.

i heard people say, for guardians, you need to time your aegis or something, for those big attacks etc. i can never get that right in sPvP.

also, the concept of lowest health pool is not very appealing for me. same reason why i do not play an elementalist.

a game like this should be all about accessibility not alienation, and you have just made a huge case for streamlining profession controls and normalizing hp.

oh Swagger please dun twist my words would ya?

i said guardian is hard for me, but i am sure there are others who are very familiar with guardian. guardian may be hard for me, but for those who play guardians exclusively, i think not.

start looking at the bigger picture.

i’m not twisting words, you highlighted some core issues with the professions system. the more accessible and more balanced things are, the more players are willing to pick up, play and enjoy different professions.

I really can’t believe this is even an argument. The classes are not different enough in either offensive capability or utility to justify such huge gaps in attrition and survivability. And there’s not any reliable way they can change that even if they wanted to, because there is no innate counter-balance for having less defense. It has to be built into individual skills, which is too hard to balance.

The heath gap needs to be narrower. 14k, 16k, 18k would be about right.

Einlanzer.1627:

The heath gap needs to be narrower. 14k, 16k, 18k would be about right.

What about Thief? They have low health due to the mobility, stealth and high burst damage they have, increasing the health without reducing that would make them a hell of a lot stronger. Same goes for Mesmer and Engineer as well.

I only see a few that need tweaking.

Ele: More Health. Considering all the nerfs they have gotten i cant understand why they have such a low health pool.

Mesmer: Down. They have insane burst, illusions, clones, Invul, stealth they could do with it going down a bit, not to much i would say 1-2k health

Warrior: Down. They have SO much of everything. They need their health reduced or the class fixed. They shouldnt be the best of everything – High health, defense, invul, immunities, mobility, passive regen….I think needs to be reduced by 2-3k health.

Einlanzer.1627:

I really can’t believe this is even an argument. The classes are not different enough in either offensive capability or utility to justify such huge gaps in attrition and survivability. And there’s not any reliable way they can change that even if they wanted to, because there is no innate counter-balance for having less defense. It has to be built into individual skills, which is too hard to balance.

The heath gap needs to be narrower. 14k, 16k, 18k would be about right.

No they really are different and deserving of their health caps. Gaurds have invuln and aegis, eles have really good damage and healing (they do need a buff though), thieves have stealth and extremely high mobility so they can leave a fight whenever they want. That justifies their low health.

Rangers have a decent healing and decent dodges, engis have a little bit of everything, and mesmers have stealth and clones (although they can’t stealth as long as a thief and don’t have as many traits related to it and if you can’t find a mesmer among clones your not doing it right). They justify middle of the road health.

Necros have death shroud, a mechanic that actually loses health as you sit in it. Need high health because that is their only way to mitigate damage. Warriors are just insanely op right now, but should be facetanking damage more often as well.

The gw2 team can and has made good justification for the health of each class and they are balanced around that. If guardians didn’t have a lot of blocks and healing they would need more base health, if thieves couldn’t heal in stealth and leave a fight that would justify more health, and if necros had blocks and more boons that would justify lowered health. Currently though any debate like this is either people complaining about warriors (who are legitimately op), or wanting buffs to eles, thieves, or gaurds.

Nah! This subject has nothing to do with ease of play between the classes but more of how the classes are differentiated from each other. This post asks for classes to be made more similar to each other than different. To do that, one cannot just look at base HP since there are other factors such as base armor, mobility, direct/condi damage output, cc output, etc. that would need to be rebalanced.

Please do not make the classes more similar to each other.

health values are perfectly fine imo

Chaba.5410:

Nah! This subject has nothing to do with ease of play between the classes but more of how the classes are differentiated from each other. This post asks for classes to be made more similar to each other than different. To do that, one cannot just look at base HP since there are other factors such as base armor, mobility, direct/condi damage output, cc output, etc.

Please do not make the classes more similar to each other.

Take Warrior for example: High Health, Armor, Damage and Condition immunity, high passive health regen, damage reduction signet, high mobility (the best in the game?) as well as very good damage. Do they need to have the joint top health considering everything they already have? Of course not.

It is clear that the health differences between classes need to be adjusted – or that the classes with such high health should be toned down. Look at Necromancer they DESERVE the high health, they no very little mobility, once in a fight they either die, win or the person they are fighting runs away they have VERY little in terms of defense as well.

You are overlooking the fact that warriors cannot kill you if they are running away.

And I disagree about the high condition immunity. When I play my warrior, even with the passive healing signet, negative condi duration food, shouts heal/remove condi, and warhorn, conditions can still eat me alive. Guess I like to fight instead of running away all the time.

Chaba.5410:

And I disagree about the high condition immunity. When I play my warrior, even with the passive healing signet, negative condi duration food, shouts heal/remove condi, and warhorn, conditions can still eat me alive. Guess I like to fight instead of running away all the time.

You do know they have condition Immunity skill right? sure the conditions you have on you still tick but it stops any new conditions from being applied. You also have Dogged March that can pretty much make any Chill, Cripple and such last mere seconds even on condition builds.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Chaba.5410:

And I disagree about the high condition immunity. When I play my warrior, even with the passive healing signet, negative condi duration food, shouts heal/remove condi, and warhorn, conditions can still eat me alive. Guess I like to fight instead of running away all the time.

You do know they have condition Immunity skill right? sure the conditions you have on you still tick but it stops any new conditions from being applied. You also have Dogged March that can pretty much make any Chill, Cripple and such last mere seconds even on condition builds.

Cleansing Ire by itself can grant more condition removal per second than a Necro with every single condition removal skill available to him, mostly due to the putrid mark nerf.

Chaba.5410:

You are overlooking the fact that warriors cannot kill you if they are running away.

So that means it is okay for them to have such high health, high mobility and everything else because if they are running away they aren’t killing you. Except in most cases they are running because they would have died. So all that health, mobility and everything SAVED them from dying…

Kiriakulos.1690:

Cleansing Ire by itself can grant more condition removal per second than a Necro with every single condition removal skill available to him, mostly due to the putrid mark nerf.

Necro doesn’t just cleanse but can also cleanse and transfer. Transfers and just a raw cleanse are different. You can kill people with a necros condi tranfers.

oZii.2864:

Kiriakulos.1690:

Cleansing Ire by itself can grant more condition removal per second than a Necro with every single condition removal skill available to him, mostly due to the putrid mark nerf.

Necro doesn’t just cleanse but can also cleanse and transfer. Transfers and just a raw cleanse are different. You can kill people with a necros condi tranfers.

A warrior can just kill people by hitting them really really hard.

Kiriakulos.1690:

oZii.2864:

Kiriakulos.1690:

Cleansing Ire by itself can grant more condition removal per second than a Necro with every single condition removal skill available to him, mostly due to the putrid mark nerf.

Necro doesn’t just cleanse but can also cleanse and transfer. Transfers and just a raw cleanse are different. You can kill people with a necros condi tranfers.

A warrior can just kill people by hitting them really really hard.

While still having highest armor, and a good amount of health being a glass cannon.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Chaba.5410:

You are overlooking the fact that warriors cannot kill you if they are running away.

So that means it is okay for them to have such high health, high mobility and everything else because if they are running away they aren’t killing you. Except in most cases they are running because they would have died. So all that health, mobility and everything SAVED them from dying…

Yes, that’s the proof of something that is well-balanced. You didn’t die and they didn’t die. You have to come up with skill usage strategies, group coordination strategies, and builds to overcome that, as do they. It’s called GAMEPLAY.

Chaba.5410:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Chaba.5410:

You are overlooking the fact that warriors cannot kill you if they are running away.

So that means it is okay for them to have such high health, high mobility and everything else because if they are running away they aren’t killing you. Except in most cases they are running because they would have died. So all that health, mobility and everything SAVED them from dying…

Yes, that’s the proof of something that is well-balanced. You didn’t die and they didn’t die. You have to come up with skill usage strategies, group coordination strategies, and builds to overcome that, as do they. It’s called GAMEPLAY.

They didnt die thanks to how broken the class is with its insane regen and the fact that despite being a HEAVY armor class it can escape from ANYONE. That is NOT balance.

Sorry to disagree. Your responses just come off sounding like an entitlement to have a kill rather than a serious desire for balance. There’s no better way to prove balance than duelers who cannot kill each other or where a fight takes a really long time until one player makes a mistake that costs him.

Different professions use different mechanics to create that balance.

God this thread has been hijacked and turned into a debate about everything except the actual problem.

My argument is that such a huge difference in HP makes balancing harder than it needs to be for both PvP and PvE designers.

In general GW2 has a design problem with extremes. Content has either one-shot mechanics or is faceroll easy. Burst classes kill in 2 seconds but bunkers can tank people for ages.

These extremes are partially because of this huge gap in base-HP. A Guardian has low HP so he NEEDs excessive mitigation and self-healing to sustain himself. An Elementalist needs constant Protection and healing from attunement switches in order to not be a glass-cannon. Thieves feel pigenholed into being glass-cannons because not matter how they build, they always die fast. So might as well go all-in.

My argument is that if this base-gap in HP was reduced to say 13k, 15k and 18k base HP then the devs could also go about limiting some of these aforementioned extremes and move everyone a bit more towards a middle ground.

Getting instant-gibbed by Thieves is just as unfun as chasing a Bunker in circles for 2 minutes.

The problem would be – Thieves would STILL build exactly the same but now they would have even more health. Only certain classes need to have their health adjusted.

Mesmer down 1-2k, Warrior down 2-3k and Ele up 2-3k. Either that or fix the classes. Reduce the amount of defense Mesmer gets (PU starting point) as well as all the passive regen, mobility, CC and everything else Warrior have and Buff up Ele so they arent forced into running Vit gear and stats.

Dee Jay.2460:

…
My argument is that if this base-gap in HP was reduced to say 13k, 15k and 18k base HP then the devs could also go about limiting some of these aforementioned extremes and move everyone a bit more towards a middle ground.
…

More like 13,15,17 … just to keep it evenly spread, 2k apart each… Also possibly switch classes around between the three tiers… Considering also, base armor is higher for heavies than it is for meds or lights…. Essentially warrior at this point is getting the best of both worlds, highest base health and highest base armor. (And let’s not go into damage…)

At this point the game is no where near balanced… But it’s fun watching dev’s try and balance it… how they balance it… the QQ’s that come out of it… the whole process has become more amusing than playing the game itself…

They’d have to move the high end of the extreme also towards the middle: 13k, 15k, 17k for example. Then they’d have to take away some of the burst/high dmg capabilities and make some of the bunker capabilities less effective, as well as lowering condi effectiveness and reducing some of the burst heal stuff.

My point is that the extremes balance each other. Reduce the extremes in one area and the other extremes also need reduction in order to maintain balance.

FWIW, my elementalist is only level 38 and I’ve mostly played with staff so I can’t give a good opinion on it, but I do feel that my high mobility mitigates some of the problems with it. Given some of the nerfs to that class though, I might agree that it does need some love.

I’m okay with Necro having 18k health, since it has light armor. Warrior, on the other hand, is a problem.

Zero Day.2594:

Dee Jay.2460:

…
My argument is that if this base-gap in HP was reduced to say 13k, 15k and 18k base HP then the devs could also go about limiting some of these aforementioned extremes and move everyone a bit more towards a middle ground.
…

More like 13,15,17 … just to keep it evenly spread, 2k apart each… Also possibly switch classes around between the three tiers… Considering also, base armor is higher for heavies than it is for meds or lights…. Essentially warrior at this point is getting the best of both worlds, highest base health and highest base armor. (And let’s not go into damage…)

At this point the game is no where near balanced… But it’s fun watching dev’s try and balance it… how they balance it… the QQ’s that come out of it… the whole process has become more amusing than playing the game itself…

I liked 14/16/18 better. I still feel ttk is too low* usually (pve and pvp)

Just want to put it this way, it isn’t rock-paper-scissors. Anet created opposition between many more variables. The whole picture has to be looked at, not just one variable.

Arganthium.5638:

I’m okay with Necro having 18k health, since it has light armor. Warrior, on the other hand, is a problem.

See…
Going by that, and I’ve thought about it too, would mean:
18k (max) health for Mesmer/Ele/Necro
15k (mid) health for Thieves/Engineers/Rangers
13k (min) health for Warrior/Guardian

Pretty much like reversing the health/armor tiers…
At the same time, having played other MMO’s (WoW)… Warriors (archetypes) generally do get highest health and highest armor, primarily so that they can “tank” if need be… Spell casters typically get the least amount of health and armor, because they tend to not be up-front in combat… Hunters/Rogues are either in the middle or closer to spell casters, typically again they don’t have to engage in up-front combat OR their up-front combat is really quick. This is typically in a system that has some sort of a trinity…
GW2 doesnt exactly have a trinity (aside from what did they say… CC/Damage/??). So that kind of balancing is not needed to start with… since an Ele can take aggro off of a warrior just as “easily” as the warrior can take aggro off of the ele… “Everyone” can tank/support/cc and even heal (in some cases the group too)… BUT it seems like they would still like to maintain the health paradigm from a typical trinity system… for some odd reason (who knows why…? I guess it makes sense that these giant 8 foot warriors are beefy and do have a lot of health compared to the frail ele’s that spend time reading books)

And they can keep that… just that they now have to balance it out via traits… while trying to make every class not feel the same as another…
Yeah it’s hard… It’s also amusing to watch…

ATMAvatar.5749:

Carighan.6758:

The idea is thematically important ofc. Necromancers having very high health fits well, especially compared to the pure powerhouses fantasy lore displays for elementalism-wielding mages, who in turn are rather frail.

The underlying problem with trying to build mage classes based on lore is that in every MMO I’ve played, the mage classes usually get balanced to keep the frailty without the superior damage, even if they start out matching lore. This is even done to the point that they always re-brand the mage classes at some point (or even multiple points), and in many cases, render the classes inferior.

Necromancers usually stick closer to lore, but only because it balances the fact that they generally also follow lore by sacrificing health to cast many of their spells. This is not the case in GW2, so there is no particular reason why they need so much HP relative to others, particularly considering they get death shroud.

Necromancer was intended to be an attrition class (lol), thus the high amount of health. If you’re really upset about different skills that can increase ones effective HP, you might wanna direct your rage towards thief, guardian and warrior.

Zero Day.2594:

Arganthium.5638:

I’m okay with Necro having 18k health, since it has light armor. Warrior, on the other hand, is a problem.

See…
Going by that, and I’ve thought about it too, would mean:
18k (max) health for Mesmer/Ele/Necro
15k (mid) health for Thieves/Engineers/Rangers
13k (min) health for Warrior/Guardian

The reason Necro is okay with 18k health ISN’T because what armor type it has but because how very little defense it has. Mesmer would be unstoppable if it had that much health, same goes for Ele. Both of them have way more defense than what the Necro has and that is why Necro needs to have more health.

15k (max) health for Warrior/Necro
14k (mid) health for Ele/Engineers/Rangers
13k (min) health for Mesmer/Thief/Guardian

That is how i would see it, though it would be a nerf to Necromance, i think that can be fixed by a few tweaks. Warrior doesnt need any due to how much Passive Regen, Mobility, CC and everything that it has access to

Mesmer, Thief i think would need a little nerf to counter the fact they would have more health. Guardian a little off its defense to against counter the more health they would have.

Ele, i think needs the health buff after getting so many nerfs and the fact they are forced into getting Vit due to the fact they would melt against pretty much all classes otherwise.

High health is mitigation against high burst. Thieves would just have a much easier time bursting down a necro with lower health if nothing were done to nerf thief damage.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Zero Day.2594:

Arganthium.5638:

I’m okay with Necro having 18k health, since it has light armor. Warrior, on the other hand, is a problem.

See…
Going by that, and I’ve thought about it too, would mean:
18k (max) health for Mesmer/Ele/Necro
15k (mid) health for Thieves/Engineers/Rangers
13k (min) health for Warrior/Guardian

The reason Necro is okay with 18k health ISN’T because what armor type it has but because how very little defense it has. Mesmer would be unstoppable if it had that much health, same goes for Ele. Both of them have way more defense than what the Necro has and that is why Necro needs to have more health.

15k (max) health for Warrior/Necro
14k (mid) health for Ele/Engineers/Rangers
13k (min) health for Mesmer/Thief/Guardian

That is how i would see it, though it would be a nerf to Necromance, i think that can be fixed by a few tweaks. Warrior doesnt need any due to how much Passive Regen, Mobility, CC and everything that it has access to

Mesmer, Thief i think would need a little nerf to counter the fact they would have more health. Guardian a little off its defense to against counter the more health they would have.

Ele, i think needs the health buff after getting so many nerfs and the fact they are forced into getting Vit due to the fact they would melt against pretty much all classes otherwise.

;) I like how you swapped Ele and mesmer’s tiers… Not even going to touch on other mentioned classes as I don’t want to start a kitten storm… (but feel free to add a thief nerf to the nerf wish list in my signature! We get at least one nerf request each week!)

Ugh at the very end of my post I said
“And they can keep that… just that they now have to balance it out via traits… while trying to make every class not feel the same as another…
Yeah it’s hard… It’s also amusing to watch…”
See, the discussion was/is originally about base health (kitten everything else)… but now we’re getting into who has better passive regen, who has better “defense” (whatever that word means… armor? skills? boons? play skill?)…
Essentially you can really leave the tiers how they are now and balance it out via traits/skills….
(I guess the core issue is the balance in general… stemming from the need to balance traits/skills because of different health/armor pools)

:| Actually, personally I would promote buffing the lower health pools to 14/16/18 (someone already mentioned this combo)…. I wouldn’t consider touching anything outside of that (like nerf something down because of the increase in health)…

If they lowered the necro pool, they could boost siphoning and other skills (such as un-nerfing weakening shroud) so that if a necro was good enough to survive an initial burst, they become extremely dangerous in a protracted fight. Life force generation on condition weapons (scepter) would have to be boosted. Right now the peak of a necro threat is in the beginning of a battle, so of they could adjust that to a lower start and an even or increasing level of danger, that would be nice.

if the HP problem is about PvE, just make mobs hit a fixed % of your max health, problem solved

Zero Day.2594:

;) I like how you swapped Ele and mesmer’s tiers… Not even going to touch on other mentioned classes as I don’t want to start a kitten storm… (but feel free to add a thief nerf to the nerf wish list in my signature! We get at least one nerf request each week!)

Ugh at the very end of my post I said
“And they can keep that… just that they now have to balance it out via traits… while trying to make every class not feel the same as another…
Yeah it’s hard… It’s also amusing to watch…”
See, the discussion was/is originally about base health (kitten everything else)… but now we’re getting into who has better passive regen, who has better “defense” (whatever that word means… armor? skills? boons? play skill?)…
Essentially you can really leave the tiers how they are now and balance it out via traits/skills….
(I guess the core issue is the balance in general… stemming from the need to balance traits/skills because of different health/armor pools)

:| Actually, personally I would promote buffing the lower health pools to 14/16/18 (someone already mentioned this combo)…. I wouldn’t consider touching anything outside of that (like nerf something down because of the increase in health)…

well to be fair, i am pretty sure all classes would see a buff except Necro and Warrior, so all the classes didnt really need their health buffed (Thief, Guardian) mostly would need to adjusts as i think they are fine the way they are – increase Thief to much and it will become just to powerful, same with Mesmer but reduce it to much and it would be a terrible nerf.

Mesmer does NOT need to be top tier when it comes to Health. See as how they have Invul, Stealth, Illusions, Burst, Conditions they would become the new warrior – except no insane Passive Healing or insane mobility.

The ONLY classes i think need adjustments are actually Mesmer(Down), Warrior(Down) and Ele(Up) i think the rest are roughly fine the lower health ones have either high survivability or stealth Necro i feel is fine as it has no other defense bar a crappy 7second protection on 60second cool down.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Zero Day.2594:

;) I like how you swapped Ele and mesmer’s tiers… Not even going to touch on other mentioned classes as I don’t want to start a kitten storm… (but feel free to add a thief nerf to the nerf wish list in my signature! We get at least one nerf request each week!)

Ugh at the very end of my post I said
“And they can keep that… just that they now have to balance it out via traits… while trying to make every class not feel the same as another…
Yeah it’s hard… It’s also amusing to watch…”
See, the discussion was/is originally about base health (kitten everything else)… but now we’re getting into who has better passive regen, who has better “defense” (whatever that word means… armor? skills? boons? play skill?)…
Essentially you can really leave the tiers how they are now and balance it out via traits/skills….
(I guess the core issue is the balance in general… stemming from the need to balance traits/skills because of different health/armor pools)

:| Actually, personally I would promote buffing the lower health pools to 14/16/18 (someone already mentioned this combo)…. I wouldn’t consider touching anything outside of that (like nerf something down because of the increase in health)…

well to be fair, i am pretty sure all classes would see a buff except Necro and Warrior, so all the classes didnt really need their health buffed (Thief, Guardian) mostly would need to adjusts as i think they are fine the way they are – increase Thief to much and it will become just to powerful, same with Mesmer but reduce it to much and it would be a terrible nerf.

Mesmer does NOT need to be top tier when it comes to Health. See as how they have Invul, Stealth, Illusions, Burst, Conditions they would become the new warrior – except no insane Passive Healing or insane mobility.

The ONLY classes i think need adjustments are actually Mesmer(Down), Warrior(Down) and Ele(Up) i think the rest are roughly fine the lower health ones have either high survivability or stealth Necro i feel is fine as it has no other defense bar a crappy 7second protection on 60second cool down.

Necros might need their health adjusted down with their skills adjusted up so that they play/sustain more like guards with continuous healing (or more dangerous siphoning… 2k over 3+ seconds on the dagger? The equivalent of 1 power based auto attack). In this way they could truly be attrition based.

When i started playing i assumed the health difference was because lower hp classes had access to more healing and defensive skills. Then i looked at healing signet compared to signet of restoration…

Maugetarr.6823:

Necros might need their health adjusted down with their skills adjusted up so that they play/sustain more like guards with continuous healing (or more dangerous siphoning… 2k over 3+ seconds on the dagger? The equivalent of 1 power based auto attack). In this way they could truly be attrition based.

Interesting idea but that would be a HUGE nerf to the class Mechanic. Seeing as how you need as much health as you can to make the most of it. Unless they go the (for example) Life Force = 150% Of Health or something similar.

They would also need to make it so that Siphons are built into ALL weapons and that the siphons in the traits are removed and replaced with something else. Making a Class have lower health but higher siphons is VERY bad when only 1 weapon actually has a siphon and you are forced into traits to get anything out of them. Or this would be a HUGE nerf not only to DeathShroud but ANYONE that doesn’t take the Siphon traits which would make them weaker as a result as they would need to take 15-20 trait points from somewhere…

Sizer.5632:

When i started playing i assumed the health difference was because lower hp classes had access to more healing and defensive skills. Then i looked at healing signet compared to signet of restoration…

Even with 836 Healing Power Healing Signet BASE (No healing Power or anything) heals more than 100Hp/s passively and is only 400 health lower on active than my Signet of Restoration AND has a 5second shorter cool down. On a class that has more Armor, More health, more damage, more mobility and more immunity…

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Maugetarr.6823:

Necros might need their health adjusted down with their skills adjusted up so that they play/sustain more like guards with continuous healing (or more dangerous siphoning… 2k over 3+ seconds on the dagger? The equivalent of 1 power based auto attack). In this way they could truly be attrition based.

Interesting idea but that would be a HUGE nerf to the class Mechanic. Seeing as how you need as much health as you can to make the most of it. Unless they go the (for example) Life Force = 150% Of Health or something similar.

They would also need to make it so that Siphons are built into ALL weapons and that the siphons in the traits are removed and replaced with something else. Making a Class have lower health but higher siphons is VERY bad when only 1 weapon actually has a siphon and you are forced into traits to get anything out of them. Or this would be a HUGE nerf not only to DeathShroud but ANYONE that doesn’t take the Siphon traits which would make them weaker as a result as they would need to take 15-20 trait points from somewhere…

That’s why in the other one I said life force generation may need a boost. If you look st the way guards play, they start with a lower health pool, but they jump up very quickly once they start getting behind. It takes coordinated effort or a well timed interrupt to take a good one down. From the perspective of killing a fair number of necros, once once they start their downward trend, they keep going thst way till they win/die/push their attacker off. As a % of their health pool, their heal isn’t great either. You are right about deathshroud though, numerically it needs to remain at least the same, meaning the % of the health pool would need to be increased. The siphon traits and LF generating skills/traits would need a boost.

Currently necros start high and get weaker the longer a fight lasts (unless it’s really long). An interesting change would be for them to start low and bounce above and below that starting point while gathering momentum.

The fact that a full soldier’s thief is nowhere near as durable as a zerk warrior IS working as intended.
The thief relies on MECHANICS and not toughness and HP to stay alive.

Just wanted to point that out.
Also I think that threads that are trying to reinvent the game aren’t going to be a solution.

Harper.4173:

The fact that a full soldier’s thief is nowhere near as durable as a zerk warrior IS working as intended.
The thief relies on MECHANICS and not toughness and HP to stay alive.

Just wanted to point that out.
Also I think that threads that are trying to reinvent the game aren’t going to be a solution.

No class is as durable as a class that has: Highest Health, Highest Armor, Damage immunity, Condition Immunity, Damage Reduction(Dolyak Signet), Passive healing (Healing Siget) as well as traits for more healing, more condition duration reduction among other things as well as CC weapon(Hammer), as well as the BEST mobility in the game.

You really use a broken class as an example of how the game is balanced….

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Harper.4173:

The fact that a full soldier’s thief is nowhere near as durable as a zerk warrior IS working as intended.
The thief relies on MECHANICS and not toughness and HP to stay alive.

Just wanted to point that out.
Also I think that threads that are trying to reinvent the game aren’t going to be a solution.

No class is as durable as a class that has: Highest Health, Highest Armor, Damage immunity, Condition Immunity, Damage Reduction(Dolyak Signet), Passive healing (Healing Siget) as well as traits for more healing, more condition duration reduction among other things as well as CC weapon(Hammer), as well as the BEST mobility in the game.

You really use a broken class as an example of how the game is balanced….

you sacrifice a lot of offensive traits to get all that defense though, I can agree that Warrs are the strongest offensive class for PvE, but you can be one thing or the other, a tanky warr won’t do any damage, just like every other class

I haven’t died much with my necro due to its high health pool and the second life (death shroud).

However i died to much with my ele and thats one of the professions i think the health is wrong. But it’s getting better the more you play and the more you get better gear.

If you think your health is to low try armor or parts with toughtness and you will see the difference.

Sure the devs made their own lifes harder by giving different health pools. But sometimes also ours: Lets assume guardian and warrior play together both can’t use skills and are not buffed and what’s an instant death to the guardian → the warrior would survive it. I know that the guardian has a lot of support to avoid damage like blinding, shielding, etc. but in the end it will never be fair. If this is good, is up on ones individual mind.

It’s the same playing pistol/pistol engineer and thief. Lets assume we started lvl 10 and we benchmark and we benchmark again at lvl 80 (full berserker then). While the thief with his unload rules the engineer will not come close to the thiefs kill speed. That’s on of the reasons why a profession is played or not. Nobody wants to be the weak link. The challenge for the devs is to somehow balance it.

What i would do: I would transfer some life from necro to ele the rest is rather okay.

korelg.7862:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Harper.4173:

The fact that a full soldier’s thief is nowhere near as durable as a zerk warrior IS working as intended.
The thief relies on MECHANICS and not toughness and HP to stay alive.

Just wanted to point that out.
Also I think that threads that are trying to reinvent the game aren’t going to be a solution.

No class is as durable as a class that has: Highest Health, Highest Armor, Damage immunity, Condition Immunity, Damage Reduction(Dolyak Signet), Passive healing (Healing Siget) as well as traits for more healing, more condition duration reduction among other things as well as CC weapon(Hammer), as well as the BEST mobility in the game.

You really use a broken class as an example of how the game is balanced….

you sacrifice a lot of offensive traits to get all that defense though, I can agree that Warrs are the strongest offensive class for PvE, but you can be one thing or the other, a tanky warr won’t do any damage, just like every other class

Erm. No. Other than adrenal Health (15 trait points) you could even get dogged March AND Adrenal Health for 15 trait points seeing as they are both in the same tree and one is a Minor trait. everything else is either part of weapons, part of the class or utilities and heals.

Highest Health and Armor? Comes from Class.

Best Mobility? Comes from Greatsword. No traits or anything required but can be added and improved with lower cool down and such

Damage Reduction? Utility
Damage Immunity? Utility
Condition immunity? Utility
Passive Healing? Healing skill
CC? Hammer