Engineer Kits are effectively weapon swaps.
There’s something extremely interesting about them though, I can swap between them all at will always.
It’s not like when I play ele and my attunements lock me out of skills. It’s not like when I play necromancer and I’m locked out of deathshroud for 10 seconds. It’s not like when I play any profession and swap weapons being unable to immediately swap back.
It’s that I can always use whatever suits my situation best at will. This means when my opponent swaps weapons, I can always swap to counter them. Someone comes up on me from Range? I can always counterplay them. Someone comes up on me in melee I can always counterplay them. The nice thing is they can’t do the same thing back.
Whether it’s running circles around a point with bomb kit/grenade kit vs melee, or using my main weapon/tool kit to counter range. I can always swap to whatever I need without being locked out of skills like every other profession.
Given that Engi has access to pretty much every mechanic in the game from Mistform (Elixer S), to stealth (Elixer S), to CC’s, to condi’s, to boons, to transformations, it seems pretty favorable to be an engi and only have to worry about the cool downs on these and never being able to be countered by weapon set.
Just some food for thought.
Being tied to kits, the engineer utility slots have the highest competition out of any of the classes. In this sense, the greatest asset of engineers is also their most limiting. Engineers are balanced around multi-kit use, so if you don’t use multiple kits, then the engineer becomes severely limited. While it may seem like an engineer can do anything, this is only true so long as your opponent doesn’t know what your setup is.
Likewise, engineer skills suffer from mediocrity issues. While you speak about always having a counter on hand, the fact is that engineers lack anything potent enough to be a true “counter” to most players. Sure, engineers get a blind field for meleers, but it isn’t nearly as strong as the blinds doled out by thieves. Sure, engineers get knockbacks, but they can’t chain-stun players to death like warriors and mesmers. Sure, engineers get condis, but they can’t burst players down like Necros can. Sure, they get stealth, but they can’t pick and choose their fights like thieves or even mesmers. Sure, they have some movement skills, but not as much as the elementalist or the warrior.
Etc. and so on. Also, engineers almost always have some big holes in their setups. For one, engineers have few and bad stun breakers, leading to engis getting chain stunned to death. A lot. Second, engis don’t have good condi cleanse, so they frequently get torn up by necromancers and rangers. Third, engineers have bad boon removal, so they often get stuck fighting opponents at their strongest. This is pretty severe, since retaliation chews through most engineers quite quickly.
The grass is always greener on the other side.
Being tied to kits, the engineer utility slots have the highest competition out of any of the classes. In this sense, the greatest asset of engineers is also their most limiting. Engineers are balanced around multi-kit use, so if you don’t use multiple kits, then the engineer becomes severely limited. While it may seem like an engineer can do anything, this is only true so long as your opponent doesn’t know what your setup is.
Likewise, engineer skills suffer from mediocrity issues. While you speak about always having a counter on hand, the fact is that engineers lack anything potent enough to be a true “counter” to most players. Sure, engineers get a blind field for meleers, but it isn’t nearly as strong as the blinds doled out by thieves. Sure, engineers get knockbacks, but they can’t chain-stun players to death like warriors and mesmers. Sure, engineers get condis, but they can’t burst players down like Necros can. Sure, they get stealth, but they can’t pick and choose their fights like thieves or even mesmers. Sure, they have some movement skills, but not as much as the elementalist or the warrior.
Etc. and so on. Also, engineers almost always have some big holes in their setups. For one, engineers have few and bad stun breakers, leading to engis getting chain stunned to death. A lot. Second, engis don’t have good condi cleanse, so they frequently get torn up by necromancers and rangers. Third, engineers have bad boon removal, so they often get stuck fighting opponents at their strongest. This is pretty severe, since retaliation chews through most engineers quite quickly.
The grass is always greener on the other side.
I’m not saying you can’t argue about mechanic details, that just has relatively little impact in regard to what I’m pointing out.
All I’m pointing out is that an engineer can always counterplay opponents depending upon their opponent’s active weapon. It’s pretty awesome.
The main downside of the mechanic of requiring kits for a weapon swap is that it takes up a slot that other profession can utilize a stun break or a condition cleanse. Thus the engineer has to chose between a very weak weapon set, designed so to balance towards kits, or to lose a slot for the stun breaker or cleanse.
On the other hand we get back that utility skill slot in the form of our toolbelt skill associated with that kit. Some are even stunbreaks.
Really the only insufferable thing about kits is the horrible hobo-sacks. I try not to use kits because of those bags :P
The main downside of the mechanic of requiring kits for a weapon swap is that it takes up a slot that other profession can utilize a stun break or a condition cleanse. Thus the engineer has to chose between a very weak weapon set, designed so to balance towards kits, or to lose a slot for the stun breaker or cleanse.
I wonder why people wouldn’t be using Smoke Bomb from the Bomb Kit, or Healing Mist from the Elixer Gun, or Gear Shield from the Tool Kit to counter CC’s.
I’m pretty sure I’m able to remove 2 conditions every 20 seconds with healing turret, you just have to spam like crazy to get that effect immediately is all, I might be noticing things wrong though. I could take Elixer gun to remove another condition too, and remove conditions from allies, which is a nice bonus. If I have the Transmute trait that’s another condition too, but that depends on the build. All in all though being able to remove 2-4 conditions every 15-20 seconds from myself is really solid. Slightly better than what’s viable for the Mesmer, plus I can counterplay the active mesmer weapon sets! Yay!
So you had to pick a certain healing skill, a certain utility skill and certain traits. Thats not exactly great.
I can typically get similar or better condition removal for a smaller investment then that on other professions.
(edited by Terrahero.9358)
So you had to pick a certain healing skill, a certain utility skill and certain traits. Thats not exactly great.
I can typically get similar or better condition removal for a smaller investment then that on other professions.
Yes but now you’re focusing on a single skill.
Sure, for condition removal, say Mantra is better than Elixir Gun. That’s self-only condition cleansing.
Only, you’re ignoring that the Elixir Gun does a wee bit more than cleanse conditions. Stunbreaking, regen, healing, weakness, cripple, swiftness, insanely good party condition cleansing, poison, blast finisher, light field. And all that for a single utility slot.
There’s a reason Engineers are so reliant on kits: I feel plenty capable as it is. If each skill had balance against a whole utility slot of another class, geez, I’d have an insane amount of really strong utility skills.
So you had to pick a certain healing skill, a certain utility skill and certain traits. Thats not exactly great.
I can typically get similar or better condition removal for a smaller investment then that on other professions.
The condition removal comparison wasn’t meant to be impressive, it was compared to a Mesmer lol, which has extremely underwhelming condition management for viable PvP builds.
I’m highlighting some of the pros and cons of condition/cc removal while continuing to point out that an engi can always counterplay any profession’s active weapon set via their instant swapping available in engi kits.
I wonder why people wouldn’t be using Smoke Bomb from the Bomb Kit, or Healing Mist from the Elixer Gun, or Gear Shield from the Tool Kit to counter CC’s.
That would most certainly be ideal. Assuming someone is using one or all of those kits. Lets use Earthshaker for an example as an incoming CC attack. You have 3/4s cast time. Which means your reflexes must twitch immediately to the key to swap to appropriate kit, then immediately on to the block key. That is rather difficult. Not impossible, but extremely difficult.
Smoke bomb requires the same function, only it has a 1/2s cast time just to set the bomb, then the standard 1.5s fuse on the bomb. It seems you are not familiar at all with the profession. So I let me try to educate you. All bombs, even the auto-attack have a fuse delay. Thus any and all bombs, cannot be used any faster then 1.5s-2s.
Healing Mist, yes it is a stun breaker. It obviously will work. One thing most do not know about the engineer, is that it has no cool down on a stun breaker below a 40s CD. Every profession besides the necro has faster cooldowns of 30s avaliable on stun breaks.
I’m pretty sure I’m able to remove 2 conditions every 20 seconds with healing turret, you just have to spam like crazy to get that effect immediately is all, I might be noticing things wrong though.
Well first you have to place it. Then you have to activate it. It has an after cast time. Just so you know. I could be wrong, but it seems to me that you are getting all of your information from the wiki, as you appear quite uncertain in your lingo with your comments. How many hours do you have on the profession?
I could take Elixer gun to remove another condition too, and remove conditions from allies, which is a nice bonus.
Yes. Again it requires swapping to the kit, targeting, and has an after cast, as a physical projectile must lob to your target area. And then the condition removal is only on impact. So you have to be in the circle when it last. So thee are a few details and multiple actions that must be performed.
If I have the Transmute trait that’s another condition too, but that depends on the build. All in all though being able to remove 2-4 conditions every 15-20 seconds from myself is really solid. Slightly better than what’s viable for the Mesmer, plus I can counterplay the active mesmer weapon sets! Yay!
Solid for what? What are you doing with 1/2 your build in support? What build are you using? And what for?
The condition removal comparison wasn’t meant to be impressive, it was compared to a Mesmer lol, which has extremely underwhelming condition management for viable PvP builds.
I apologize if you misunderstood. But when you make a thread , it is necessary to keep it on topic. This is about engineer kits, it has nothing to do with mesmer. Although, a mesmer can use their torch skills to remove 2 conditions every 24s. And never have to invest in a utility skill of any kind. In my experience (200ish+ hours on my mesmer here). I find memser to be better at dealing with conditions do to the removal system as well as natural avoidance. but this is just my opinion based on my personal experience.
I’m highlighting some of the pros and cons of condition/cc removal while continuing to point out that an engi can always counterplay any profession’s active weapon set via their instant swapping available in engi kits.
The why do you not list all of the pros or all of the cons? Again, I have to ask, how many hours of game play do you have on the profession? It appears toy have little to none. Particularly when asking why players do not use skills with 1/2s cast time and 1 -1 1/2 after cast before activating, in twitch reflexive situations.
All and all, I get the impression that some engineers must be dominating you on your mesmer. I am sorry for that. We would be glad to educate you on the profession. To do so, though, it may help if you approached the subject without making assumptions, and willing to learn.
(edited by coglin.1867)
-snip-
The great thing in spite of any of this or anything else is that as an engi, I’m still always able to counterplay the opposition’s weapons set.
If that hambow is coming, I know to swap to the skills that will counter him as he swaps between his weapons, so that he can’t get a leg up on me be his weapon choice. It’s best to do that against any profession not just warriors.
It’s that I can always use whatever suits my situation best at will. This means when my opponent swaps weapons, I can always swap to counter them. Someone comes up on me from Range? I can always counterplay them.
Not completely true, actually. Engineer doesn’t really have any ranged kit attacks.
(Exceptions: elixir gun 1; toolkit 5; grenade kit. Grenade kit can be used vs. WvW zergs at full range, but in small encounters in WvW and PvP it has an effective range of 600 units.)
The point is that there’s never a situation like “Oh, I’m being attacked from range. I’ll just swap to my ranged dps kit.” There is no ranged dps kit.
The great thing in spite of any of this or anything else is that as an engi, I’m still always able to counterplay the opposition’s weapons set.
If that hambow is coming, I know to swap to the skills that will counter him as he swaps between his weapons, so that he can’t get a leg up on me be his weapon choice. It’s best to do that against any profession not just warriors.
And what weapon set it is that counters hambow exactly? For you that is. Different folks use different builds, obviously. What build do you use? What weapon set do you use to counter hambow?
As well, I am curious, you speak about defending against these builds, how do you, personally, kill them?
The great thing in spite of any of this or anything else is that as an engi, I’m still always able to counterplay the opposition’s weapons set.
If that hambow is coming, I know to swap to the skills that will counter him as he swaps between his weapons, so that he can’t get a leg up on me be his weapon choice. It’s best to do that against any profession not just warriors.
And what weapon set it is that counters hambow exactly? For you that is. Different folks use different builds, obviously. What build do you use? What weapon set do you use to counter hambow?
As well, I am curious, you speak about defending against these builds, how do you, personally, kill them?
It’s not that you use one weapon set that counters a build. What you should be doing is swapping between your kits and your main set depending upon the weapons the enemy is using, because you can at will without a swap cool down.
A couple examples were listed above. But vs melee for example, bomb kit and forcing your opponent to chase while you drop bombs behind you is very effective. This is a great strat on nodes.
Vs ranged you have your main weapon set and tool kit 4&5. Vs 1200+ range you may need to play off behind the node in order to coax in the opponents or use LoS that’s available on some maps like legacy waterfall or the side nodes on forest.
So vs hambow for example, say you have P/P with bomb kit, tool kit, and elixir S. When he’s in hammer and he’s close to you swap to bomb kit to slow blind and condi vs the melee, if he swaps to bow, start laying on the condo’s and try to anticipate an interrupt of combustion shot with magnet or supply drop, if he’s in berserker stance from range swap to tool kit and use gear shield vs pin down or arcing arrow, and Dodge the other. When he swaps back to hammer swap back to bomb kit, and big ol bomb if he already blew his Stab. If you Really need to use elixir S, but if it’s full capped don’t get off point again, because it will decap in 1 more second, unless you’ve forced him off point afterwards.
There’s other situations to offer counter suggestions for, but those are probably some of the most common.
try to anticipate an interrupt of combustion shot with magnet or supply drop
Teach me your ways. I would love to be able to interrupt a 3/4 second cast with a 1+1/4 second cast cc. What you’re saying is that you can anticipate combustion shot and start casting magnet 1/2 to 1 second before he uses combustion shot?
What build do you use again Shockwave?
I see you have been asked at least once, yet you avoid answering. I would like to believe it was simply an over sight.
Would you go ahead and link that for us please? It would help in giving context to your statements.
Also, you mention necromancer in your OP, and make an odd comparison. I have a fair bit of time on my necro. i would love to fight my necro against you on your engie. you make a comparison to necro and ele, completely out of reasonable or comparative context.
I would gladly meet any anytime on my necro against your engineer to see if it pans out that it is as imbalanced as you imply in the OP. Seem reasonable to you?
Given that Engi has access to pretty much every mechanic in the game……. Mistform (Elixer S)
Mist form is a mechanic?
Isn’t mist form immune to chill, immobilize, and cripple?
Is elixir S immune to chill, immobilize, and cripple?
(edited by dancingmonkey.4902)
What build do you use again Shockwave?
I’m by no means pro @ engi, I don’t have a set build I use yet, since I just started getting into it after watching my buddy play and trying it out with him.
I’ve just experimented and tinkered and I find it super useful that I can always be using a weapon to counter my opponent’s weapon, no matter what the situation. It’s very empowering.
I guess I have intuitively known how strong they can weapon counter from all times I’ve played against them holding down a point, but have only recently realized how useful it is to have the ability to always counter the enemy’s active weapon.
So what was the point of your thread?
You bring up no issues. No specific direction, then go on to suggest you have no specific experience or knowledge on the profession. Yet you attempt to lecture others on the profession. It feels solid at first, and I am not saying it isn’t, I love the profession. I am just suggesting that you will find it is far from perfect. Sure it went through a band wagoner meta rush with those following the rush, but there is a reason it was the second least played profession in the ToL.
So what was the point of your thread?
I keep pointing out kits can always be used to counterplay the enemy’s weapon set, because it seems to be true so far. If there are any apparent weaknesses in particular match-ups it’s worth being aware of.
Understanding counterplay options is crucial.
Eng gives up damage (among other things depending on the kits taken) for flexibility. I don’t see anything inherently wrong with this.
So what was the point of your thread?
I keep pointing out kits can always be used to counterplay the enemy’s weapon set, because it seems to be true so far. If there are any apparent weaknesses in particular match-ups it’s worth being aware of.
Understanding counterplay options is crucial.
How do you counter play conditions with kits? You have 2 separate kits that each cleanse 1 condition. One requires you can move, the other requires ground targeting.
By the way, how do you lecture everyone on counter play after you already stated you have little to no experience on the engineer, so little play even, that you admit you do not even have a build to run.
Again, I am not suggesting it is not a solid profession, as it is. But your making claims based on theory and not experience.
I have to agree that I feel it was very premature to make a thread with no real experience. All this does is clog up the sub forums with unnecessary thread that add congestion.
Are you suggesting that kits cause are OP somehow? If so, perhaps you should actually explain that. Unless you have some specifics that display an actual problem, you should have either made a discussion thread in the engineer sub forum or displayed enough patients or wisdom to use the profession enough to grasp it before creating unnecessary congestion in this sub forum.
So what was the point of your thread?
I keep pointing out kits can always be used to counterplay the enemy’s weapon set, because it seems to be true so far. If there are any apparent weaknesses in particular match-ups it’s worth being aware of.
Understanding counterplay options is crucial.
How do you counter play conditions with kits? You have 2 separate kits that each cleanse 1 condition. One requires you can move, the other requires ground targeting.
By the way, how do you lecture everyone on counter play after you already stated you have little to no experience on the engineer, so little play even, that you admit you do not even have a build to run.
Again, I am not suggesting it is not a solid profession, as it is. But your making claims based on theory and not experience.
I’m still working through what works consistently and what doesn’t for sure.
You’re heal removes two conditions immediately. Tool kit is nice for blocking out conditions to bide some time for the turret to come back around, the CC also helps bide some time. Condi’s can be overwhelming it’s not like you’re completley immune to them as an engi, if that’s what you think I’m implying it’s not what I’m trying to say. Sometimes I feel like it’d be nice to have have Elixer C, but I’m trying to stick with Elixer S because I like it’s utility
The Healing Turret does not remove two conditions on deploy, but on overcharge. Contrary to what people claim, it does require a modicum of practice to get right, and to be able to decide if you detonate on the water field or pick it up. It can be super-confusing to get the 3-second cycle right if all friendly targets exit the healing field, and then re-enter, causing the cycle timer to reset.
The Tool kit rarely works against Necromancers because their marks can penetrate blocks if traited (and most of them are).
I don’t usually build specifically for condition removal because that gives the upper hand to the opponent. The Inventions traitline has some great options, although Protection on critical hit remains a personal favorite.
Perhaps it’s a tad snarky to say this, but I think you need to play more before asserting that Engineers can always outplay the opposition. That’s not true at all. In sPvP Engineers rarely win a quick fight where the enemy enters and re-enters the fight. A lot of Engineers think they’re pro when their opponents don’t have their chips right and keep running in circles after the Engineer while in a glue bomb and smoke field, and having conditions constantly reapplied. Elementalist is a good example of a really rigid profession in terms of rotation. In contrast an Engineer has short, flexible rotations that allow reactive play. It’s funny that so many people just attack any profession on sight without assessing the risk, potential for success and if there’s gain for their team in doing so. What you described is what the Engineer is good for: Reactive combat.
Countering an Engineer isn’t always a matter of killing them either. They are strong, but they can also be isolated from their team, who have to then fight 4v5. There’s no way you can always counterplay everybody.
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