Guild Wars 2

D/D thieves are in a bad state compared to the meta S/P, D/P, or even S/D.

A slight buff to dancing daggers and cloak and dagger is needed for this build to be viable in pvp. Even S/D rarely uses these 2 skills and With the P/D cloak and dagger is used to get sneak attack off.
With reveal at 4s, there is no problem with thieves perma stealthing with #5
A buff to the damage of both skill or the lowering of initiative might help it out.
An increase to 5 stacks of vulnerability for 5s is also an option.

With D/D you either focus on condispam from #3 or blackstab. However in tPvP neither is viable compared to the superior d/p setup. I believe Death blossom might need to be tweaked.
Heartseeker is at a good spot, but it could be toned down slightly to allow for buffs on the other dagger skills.

D/D, more towards the D#3/4/5 needs a few buffs to complete with the meta builds.

(IMHO)

only thing hs needs is damage reduction above 50%, maybe above 25% to keep the spam factor down.

only thing x/d #4 needs is “obstructed”/“out of range” bug fixes.

d/d#3 would be nice if power was a main stat to scale with power better and reduce bleed duration, if condi increase duration and reduce direct damage; maybe increase evade frame 1/2s.

but i agree, d/d is in a red headed spot in the mists atm. and permastealthing with 5 there makes you even more useless than every other game mode so no biggy even if you have a target not outsustaining(or mitigating) a cnd every kitten . damage revert on cnd would be nice.

no no, it’s probably a thief so it doesn’t count.

let’s cheer the mesmers up too?

Cloak and Dagger doesn’t need a buff, it’s fine as is. Dancing Dagger…that one I feel everybody can agree on it needing a buff.

Cloak and Dagger: Descrease casting time to 0.25s
Dancing Dagger: Projectile travels faster and it’s more accurate

There you go.

the problem is not really that Dagger offhand is too weak but that dagger aswell as pistol offhand doesn’t synergize well with the same weapon in the main hand.

examples: when you go for plain non-conditional damage with daggers the 3rd skill is useless, than dancing daggers are ok because you can cripple the target you are chasing but the pistol in offhand gives you a real gapcloser (with blind on top!) as 3rd skill which is way superior at least imo. CnD is nice but more useful in PvE than PvP in any kind because you need to hit your target and the debuff will tell good enemys that a BS is incomming. meanwhile the blackpowder gives you the abilty to go invis even without hitting any enemy and also blinds them which is more important in close combat.
And not to mention with headshot you got an interrupt which is the only one you can have as a thief (without traits) afaik.

But on the other way round those advantages pistol has with a dagger in mainhand the same disadvantages it has with a pistol in mainhand…why you might ask now?

First when you go for pistol in your mainhand you are mostly specialized on conditiondamage so unload (3rd P/P) is useless like deathblossom above (3rd D/D),while the 3rd P/D skill is nice to create space to your opponent which is something you need and it applies a damagedealing condition. now dancing dagger makes also much more sense in this build because it is a way better defensive skill to slow mutiple enemys and retreat than a chasing ability! Also blackpowder can’t make you invis because you lack a jumpingskill while CnD can and because your invismove fires mutiple shots even a block ability on the enemys won’t counter it completly.

In my Opinion Anet has to rethink and rework the synergy between the weapons regarding the above mentioned issues because it really minimizes the possibilities of uncommon builds.
Anyway i agree that dagger offhand could use a little buff.

But the real problems are the 3rd skills at D/D and P/P because they are completly out of synergy compared to the rest in the weaponsets

d/p and s/p are superior to d/d cause teleport or blind and on demand interrupt.. nothing that d/d can offer without traitinvestment and that have a massive influence how a fight can end in tpvp esp against other glass canons.

so no, d/d doesnt need a buff. d/p or s/p needs nerfs. the reasons why they are superior to d/d are the same reason why thief shuts down other glass canons besides thiefs.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Cloak and Dagger doesn’t need a buff, it’s fine as is. Dancing Dagger…that one I feel everybody can agree on it needing a buff.

C&D does the same damage as a HS above 50% hp in PvP. It also has a longer aftercast Vs. HS so the burst is less compact. It has higher risk with no fewer rewards vs. BP->HS since the C&D needs to hit and the HS through BP doesn’t (BP also adds some protection while doing so).

DD misses far too often.

Deathblossom is a cond attack in a otherwise power based weaponset and the evade is quite short on it (1/4s).

Want backstabs? Go d/p. Want evades? Go s/p. No good reason to ever use d/d since d/d’s 3/4/5 don’t offer anything you can’t do better on another set other than spam blossom (which is horrid). It needs something useful to set it apart.

Deathblossom: Restore full evade frame, add 1/4s aftercast animation, interruptable by dodge, but not by other skills. This would make it less of a deathtrap to use against thinking opponents while preventing perma-evade spamming. This also wouldn’t shaft people who use it for d/d condi builds (like myself) while making it a viable tool in a crit build (for the evade and repositioning)

Dancing Dagger – Base projectile speed up 30-50%, damage is fine, add +1 bounce to allow it to better function as an equalizer when outnumbered (which is it’s best use) and reinforce its syngergy as a great combo finisher. Possibly add GM Trickery trait support (for all thief skills) to apply ICD’d immobilize when applying cripple.

Cloak and Dagger: Totally fine. Does what it says on the box. Well balanced cost/utility/damage.

I love the look and feel of d/d so i play it but its very limited atm. Dancing dagger almost NEVER lands unless im in HS range and then whats the point ill gap close for less ini. i use #3 sometimes in clutch situations and its cool when it pays off but it costs so much and a enemy with a half a brain will punish you normally for it. CnD as is i feel is in a good spot, i wouldnt complain about a buff though. The #1 fix id like is on dancing dagger being even semi reliable to actually use.

3 on d/d needs a full evade. Whenever I use it I NEVER evade successfully. It’s incredibly difficult to use dodging wise. They should make an aftercast so that its punishable, tho. #4 needs to be faster and cost less init, or boost the damage. #5 is fine imo.

Asomal.6453:

Cloak and Dagger: Decrease casting time to 0.25s
Dancing Dagger: Projectile travels faster and it’s more accurate

There you go.

+1 I would ask for no more.

..for now..

Yea I agree with d/d #3 should have a full evade just like SB #3. D/D is a close range build and after the first backstap you are left in the open until u can use #5 hoping u hit and if not just hope you survive enough to try it again or stealth with heal.

dancing dagger damage and bounce is quite good, I’d reduce the initiative cost though, leave it at 2 or 1, that would be fine

I would actually say that CnD needs a damage nerf. That thing can hit very hard even though it’s a “utility” skill that is primarily for putting you back in stealth. Either that or maybe give it the mug treatment where it can’t crit.

They can’t lower the cast time for CnD because then it largely destroys and reactionary counter without perfectly predicting it. 1/2 second is good for it.

I feel the OP is specifically talking about sPvP, in which case they should just remove the additional revealed time. It would make d/d much better since you could be more fluid in your actions and land backstabs more frequently. That would of course directly buff p/d and d/p as well, but not really s/d so much. Other things like PU mes would get buffed too though.

I feel dancing dagger is still fine as it is, but it’s just a bit hard to synergize with any of the main hand weapons since you can’t really get any combo fields with those. It can be useful in a p/d with something like throw gunk though, especially if you can get it to bounce. Otherwise you just use whatever combo fields other people place.

If it wasn’t a guaranteed projectile finisher I would probably agree that it needed buffing, although probably only in projectile speed or initiative cost.

Dancing Dagger needs a faster projectile above all else. If you can’t hit a foe running away from you in a straight line reliably, what’s the point?

I actually think it needs to bounce less. Part of the problem with the skill is that when you do happen to hit two people with it, it’ll hit both of them twice, hitting them both with a 6s cripple and 1.0 ratio attack, which is fantastic. If you push the numbers on it up at all it starts to be ridiculous in the best possible case. The problem is that you so rarely get that; either it misses, or two people aren’t close enough for a bounce, and then it’s just awful. I’d happily trade bounces for a more reliable and effective skill.

Death Blossom needs a full evade frame that begins at the start of the skill – anything else you need to nerf about it to keep that in line is probably ok. The bleed duration probably needs to be nerfed a bit to keep it from getting stupid on full condi builds, but it’d be fine either way. As long as it can be used as a reliable evade, it’ll have a role.

Cloak and Dagger doesn’t really need a change (at least in WvW, in sPvP it’s awful). One thing worth considering is lowering the damage a bit and reducing the initiative cost to 5, and potentially shifting a bit more power into the vulnerability – this would lower the risk and reward of the skill, making it a bit less of a ‘one shot or GTFO’ set.

I think there’s room to push it up in general once the Ferocity changes hit, as that’ll indirectly pull down the (borderline obscene) burst damage and leave room for power to be put back in other places.

Yamsandjams.3267:

I would actually say that CnD needs a damage nerf. That thing can hit very hard even though it’s a “utility” skill that is primarily for putting you back in stealth. Either that or maybe give it the mug treatment where it can’t crit.

A nerf? Are you serious? It does the same damage as heartseeker above 50%… that =/= “hit very hard”

It’s far higher risk with no reward vs DP’s 5,2. If C&D misses you don’t gain that stealth. If HS misses, stealth is still gained. Seriously… what reason would I ever use DD > DP outside of death blossom spam (which is horrid)?

Yamsandjams.3267:

I would actually say that CnD needs a damage nerf. That thing can hit very hard even though it’s a “utility” skill that is primarily for putting you back in stealth. Either that or maybe give it the mug treatment where it can’t crit.

i am ok with this to nerf damage or make it non-crit only!

But therefore give it a 600 unit or even just 300 if you think 600 is too much (for PvE i would say 900 is ok but i guess it’s too strong for PvP) shadowstep range so it doesn’t miss unless it’s been dodged by the enemy.

would nerf it in PvE where it is really strong and it would be actually reliable in PvP imo.

possible buff for dancing dagger might be to apply Immobilized for 1-2 sec on the main target. what’s your opinion on this, guys?

Felices Bladewing.3914:

Yamsandjams.3267:

I would actually say that CnD needs a damage nerf. That thing can hit very hard even though it’s a “utility” skill that is primarily for putting you back in stealth. Either that or maybe give it the mug treatment where it can’t crit.

i am ok with this to nerf damage or make it non-crit only!

But therefore give it a 600 unit or even just 300 if you think 600 is too much (for PvE i would say 900 is ok but i guess it’s too strong for PvP) shadowstep range so it doesn’t miss unless it’s been dodged by the enemy.

would nerf it in PvE where it is really strong and it would be actually reliable in PvP imo.

possible buff for dancing dagger might be to apply Immobilized for 1-2 sec on the main target. what’s your opinion on this, guys?

I don’t think there is anything wrong with CnD, it’s a weapon skill after all and I don’t have an issue with the dmg it does. It doesn’t make sense IMO to make a weapon skill non-crit.

I don’t think Dancing Dagger needs immob either. The cripple is perfectly useful when it actually hits a target, it’s just bad because it doesn’t properly follow a moving target and it is too slow. Ever watched Dancing Dagger when you throw it at someone who is running perpendicular to you? It just like, kind of randomly flies in front of them and disappears usually with an “obstructed” or “out of range” message, even when there is nothing in the way and the target is in range lol.. very frustrating. If they could fix this, it would be fine.

It’d be cool if we got a trait that allows us to immobilize for a short time when we cripple, kind of like Leg Specialist for Warrior. Would make D/D 4 a bit more useful. If this actually happened I’d put it in the Critical Strikes traitline.

Aberrant.6749:

Yamsandjams.3267:

I would actually say that CnD needs a damage nerf. That thing can hit very hard even though it’s a “utility” skill that is primarily for putting you back in stealth. Either that or maybe give it the mug treatment where it can’t crit.

A nerf? Are you serious? It does the same damage as heartseeker above 50%… that =/= “hit very hard”

It’s far higher risk with no reward vs DP’s 5,2. If C&D misses you don’t gain that stealth. If HS misses, stealth is still gained. Seriously… what reason would I ever use DD > DP outside of death blossom spam (which is horrid)?

You can’t compare it to heartseeker, that ability is designed to simply pump out damage. Also, you’re incorrect in your comparison. It actually does damage equivalent to heartseeker in the 25%-50% range, not the 50%-100% range, which is a difference of about 50% damage. IMO, CnD should hit as hard as a 50%-100% range heartseeker instead of a 25-50% range one.

The main point of CnD is to allow you to gain stealth so you can use a stealth attack (i.e. backstab, sneak attack), or to recover life and cure condis, or to just allow you to escape. If CnD didn’t do that, there’d be no point in using it at all. You are already rewarded for successfully landing the ability with the stealth (and vuln stacks too), so I don’t see why it also needs to be rewarded with what could be 3k+ damage, especially since you can immediately follow it up with a high damage attack. It was the same reason they nerfed mug, you could get a nice chunk of damage of a crit from it, and get a crit from CnD, and a crit from backstab, even though the backstab is supposed to be the only “big damage” ability in that chain.

If it wasn’t possible to chain the CnDs together, then I likely wouldn’t be advocating for a damage nerf. But as it is, you can use it as a means to gain “free kills” on some targets or take out objectives. For instance, even if a dolyak in WvW has guards and people escorting it, you can just continually CnD it and they have very little means of countering you, especially if you’re using blind on stealth. You probably can’t kill most players that way, but you can still inflict significant damage over and over while healing up.

One thing they could do instead is allow it to apply more vulnerability but just remove its ability to crit (i.e. 5 or 6 stacks), which would actually make your backstabs and heartseekers do more damage, as well as any allies with you.

Mind you, the upcoming changes to crit damage this would scale the damage output of CnD back a bit on cirt-focused builds, so perhaps my opinion will change on it then. I still think it’s just too high now for what CnD is supposed to be used for.

The way how I’d like to see, how D/D Skills should work for the Thief to become more viable as a build compared to Dagger/Pistol or Sword/Pistol or even Pistol/Pistol >.>

Double Strike > renamed to Double Strike*s* and functionally changed to let it perform 2 strikes, that deal instead of 2 hits, 4 hits, like the GW1 Assassin, whose Auto Attack Speciality it was to be able to hit twice with each attack.

Old: 2x 188 Damage, New 4x 100 Damage ( 372 > 400 Damage) , slight increase of lesser than 10% in Power there, and a better chance to let on Crit Effects trigger as you’ll have then more Chances per Auto Attack that the Effect could trigger, if all hits crit.

Wild Strike
Reduce here the Power of the Hit from 285 down to 250 and add to the Skill the Effect, that it interrupts a foe, if the foe has more than 50% health.
Let the thief gain instead of directly Endurance, the Boon for it – Vigor for a few seconds.

Lotus Strike
Stays as it is.

Heartseeker
Initiative Cost reduced from 3 to 2.
Damage of all 3 Triggers reduced by 10-15%
Max Range increased from 450 to 600 (per trait!! untraited it stays 450), Quickness doesn’t reduce Range anymore, this stupid bug fixed, instead it raises the maximum Range to around 650.
Functionality added, Heartseeker is now working similar like the Warriors Whirlwind Attack, that you get a Line of Sight-Ground Target first that you can turn around and into the direction you turn it, you will perform the Heartseeker, making it this way possible to perform with Heartseeker quick direction changes

Death Blossom
Functionality changed.
Evade Duration increased from 1/4s to 1s.
While performing Death Blossom, the Thief will gain now within that 1s of Evade Time also 1s of Stability.
Effect Change: Death Blossom won’t do 3 Hits anymore.
It will perform now 6 Hits and every hit will have a random chance of performing one of the following Conditions with 1 Stack/Hit
Bleeding, Torment, Confusion, Poison, Vulnerability.
Durations of the Conditions will be decreased. Instead of having 3 Bleeding Stacks for 10s, you can deal now with this skill multiple negative conditions for the duration of 5s each.
Damage increased from 201 to 300

Dancing Daggers
This Skill has now also the ability to steal up to 3 Boons from a victim if the dagger can bounce to 3 additional targets.
So for example you attack with DD an Guardian, that has 3 Boons (Aegis, Regeneration and Swiftness for Example), and the dagger hits and bounces from the Guardian further to 3 other non targeted foes, then the Guardian will lose all of his 3 Boons and the Thief will get them.
If it doesn’t bounce and it hits only once, you’ll steal just only 1 Boon.
Add to this then a nice trait, that lets you share your stolen boons with your Allies and this would make up for a nice Support)

Cloak and Dagger
Functionality changed.
Remove the 3 Stacks of Vulnerability.
Replace it with the Effect, that your next attack that hits, deals 3 Stacks of Torment.
Cloak and Dagger doesn’t require anymore to hit a target to get 3s of Stealth.
You get now 3s of Stealth directly when using C&D

The problem with the old C&D is, that its to risky compared to the other Thief Builds, as it requires of you to go into direct melee combat and needs a hit first to get Stealths, while the other thief Builds don’t need that Hit, what is the reason, why the other Thief builds are superior. Thats the reason why this has to get changed on C&D to make it in comparison viable.

How I’d love to play my Thief in WvW with these kind of 5 Weapon Skills as D/D

Orpheal.8263:

Lots of stuff…

These sound kind of OP… O_o

I like the creativity, but 2 major flaws in my opinion… dancing dagger can be used too many times in a row (spammed) to steal 3 boons. You would just eat delicious boons all day. I mean don’t get me wrong, I LOL at the thought in my head of how glorious it would be, but alas, it would be pretty OP.

CnD supplying stealth without hitting things would be SO annoying lol. At least with D/P you can see the red ring on the ground, but CnD stealth without hitting something would be un-counterable… I would QQ about that, and I play a thief… lol.

Haha, are you serious? Do you realize how ridiculously broken a P/D condition thief will be with those 2 skills?

Boon steal on a spammable ranged skill with low casting time is bad enough, but cnd applying torment and not requiring you to get close or hit will be hilariously broken with sneak attack with the pistol, I can’t believe that sounds even remotely plausible to you.

honestly i find the number 4 useless in pvp and more useful in wvw. i seldom use it and i only do on engi’s that are running around dropping aoe condis while I’m trying to back stab. i think 3 is just silly and pointless since if you’re going full zerk the bleeds really don’t do much beside cancel out a few regen slightly. 5 i think is fine tbh. if it crits it can be deadly. the only thing i would maybe add to it would be 5 stacks of vun instead of 3..just cuz most skills add 5 stacks of w/e….and you know….we teefs need moar deeps

@ Sir Kaboomski/META

The creativity counts more, than the used numbers.
Sure these effects would be a bit OP, but it would be for sure also a viable build to play compared to the other existing builds.

And one thing must we admit all, if D/D should become the same as viable as the otzher builds, D/D Skills need some buffs and there are creative effects alot more worthful to make a build interesting, than just raising everywhere only numbers.

I just think, my ideas would need just only some slight tweaks here n there, some limitations to be more precise and I think these suggestions would work fine and it would be 5 skills, where you can say, they have some synergy and can be good for both, Crit as like Condition Thiefs plus the thief would get finally a Weapon Build, that is themed after the Game Concept of this Class, stealing something from others in the mean of Stealing and the only thing, that you could steal in this game without problems, are Boons
In my opinion Boon Stealer should be a build, that the Thief Class should be most superior in, its a “role” that suits to the Thief just perfectly.
—-

But now more directly to the concerns and how to solve them/tweak the skills if really needed:

Dancing Daggers
First of to mention, don#t forget that it requires the Dagger to bounce of Targets to get the best effect out of that Boon Steal. if you fight only versus 1 Target in SPvP/WvW while roaming around, you won’t get the Dagger to bounce of anything.
The Dancing Dagger Skill is absolutely designed for combat against multiple targets.
With the Boon Steal Effect, it should be mainly a Counter Attack versus Mesmers that spam their Clones/Phantasms to take a bit wind out of their sails.

Or against Bunker Engineers that keep on standing in the near of their towers.
Or against MM Necros.

That would be the main targets. However, if 3 Boons should be really too much for that Skill, whose Effect is already limited by the fact, that you need multiple targets first to get the best effect out of it. we could reduce it also to 2 Boons.

The change on CnD is required to make D/D more viable for Condition Builds.
The point is, Bleeding alone for a Condition Build is not very effective.
Bleeding alone is very quickly cured away before it can get dangerous.
A reason, why Condition Thiefs are forced oftenkly to use the Venom Utilities to be able to perform better Condition Pressure to be able to dish out more Conditions all at once to cover the Bleeding.

Currently the Thief has not much options to perform Torment, other then:

• Skale Venom
• Shadow Strike (P/D 3) – 2 Stacks for 4 Initiative
  (My suggestion is 3 Stacks Torment for 6 Initiative)
  So if you want to give a Target 5 Stacks of Torment, you’d have to use 10 Initiative!!

As a reminder, a Mesmer is easily able to give a Target 5 stacks of Torment, just by using only
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Illusionary_Counter and that for 8seconds !!! just for blocking only an attack

So don’t tell me, that is OP.

So I could understand the concern around Dancign Daggers, but absolutely no for Cloak and Dagger, when my suggestion is still inferior to what Mesmers can do just with one block of an anttack and that counter attack is also unblockable basically plus Mesmers also get a Clone out of it …

The Thief counter for that would be just the Stealth for 3 seconds without needign a Hit. This change is neded, otherwise will be D/D always inferior to the other Thief Permastealth Builds, which don’t require to hit a target at all to get those long permanent Stealths.

However, you mentioned that the other Skills show you a red ring. If thats the only concern that you have about Cloak and Dagger and the ability to become invisible without needed a hit is the visuality that shows you that the Thief went into Stealth, then I think it should be easy for Anet to change something on the Skill Animation of Cloak and Dagger, like letting a kind of Smoke Cloak effect appear that should show you, that your enemy just used Cloak and Dagger and that you should be prepared to be assaulted from behind within the next 3 seconds…

Or do you find vanishing foes in front of your eyes more entertaining, when they hit you? A Thief, that stealtths for 3 seconds with Cloak and Dagger is nothing different, than a Thief using his Self Heal Skill Hide in Shadows, which stealths a Thief also for 3 seconds currently, without that you see any red rings or so on the ground.

However, Hide in the Shadows has a clear Skill Animation that shows everyonne, that the Thief is using his Self Heal Skill and the same way it could work with changign just the Skill Animation of Cloak and Dagger, if that Skill would give you directly 3 seconds of Stealth without needing the silly hit anymore.

Sir Kaboomski.1508:

Felices Bladewing.3914:

Yamsandjams.3267:

I would actually say that CnD needs a damage nerf. That thing can hit very hard even though it’s a “utility” skill that is primarily for putting you back in stealth. Either that or maybe give it the mug treatment where it can’t crit.

i am ok with this to nerf damage or make it non-crit only!

But therefore give it a 600 unit or even just 300 if you think 600 is too much (for PvE i would say 900 is ok but i guess it’s too strong for PvP) shadowstep range so it doesn’t miss unless it’s been dodged by the enemy.

would nerf it in PvE where it is really strong and it would be actually reliable in PvP imo.

possible buff for dancing dagger might be to apply Immobilized for 1-2 sec on the main target. what’s your opinion on this, guys?

I don’t think there is anything wrong with CnD, it’s a weapon skill after all and I don’t have an issue with the dmg it does. It doesn’t make sense IMO to make a weapon skill non-crit.

I don’t think Dancing Dagger needs immob either. The cripple is perfectly useful when it actually hits a target, it’s just bad because it doesn’t properly follow a moving target and it is too slow. Ever watched Dancing Dagger when you throw it at someone who is running perpendicular to you? It just like, kind of randomly flies in front of them and disappears usually with an “obstructed” or “out of range” message, even when there is nothing in the way and the target is in range lol.. very frustrating. If they could fix this, it would be fine.

i never told there is anything wrong with CnD, i just said that IF it should get nerfed in dmg it has to have more utility instead. it was just a reply to the op i was referring to.

like i said the problem i see is in the 3rd skill, in the combination of D/D aswell as in P/P because they feel out of place compered to the other 4 skills.

i also think that a fix of dancing daggers would/should be enough to make it legit.
But still in PvP, even with changes, i think D/P or P/D are still superior in terms of synergy as D/D and P/P could be and this can only change with a rework of the dualwield skills for those combinations

1. Dancing Dagger: On d/d, it does just about no good. Why? It has low damage, and serves the same purpose as HS as a gap closer but HS is far more reliable. As a projectile finisher, you don’t get fields to work off of as a thief, so it essentially does no good on any front. They should remove the bounce and cripple and add poison to it with a much faster projectile. Even on a bounce the dps is aweful. Not only would this give more control to a D/D in a fight to hinder their healing, it would help p/d to be more viable in pvp. In wvw it may need tweaking since p/d can hurt fairly bad due to pve specific buffs but in pvp, relying on bleeds as the only real DoT is underwhelming. Swap to sb you lose the bleed pressure, and torment, serpent’s touch is only every 21-35 seconds lasting 10.5 seconds. The poison can last say 4 seconds in wvw and 5 seconds in pvp.

1. Cloak And Dagger: Easily spotted, and heavy investment for a maybe. Either decrease cast time to 1/4 seconds or reduce initiative cost to 5. Damage is fine imo, and it isn’t spammable so I don’t see the point in bumping its damage anyways, point for it is to lead into a stealth attack. As a combo (CnD precast, mug, BS) doesn’t need more burst in there. Issue is the defense it offers is easily missed. For P/d you’re kinda forced into using it for sneak attack but for D/X burst, you’re better off using d/p because you have a guarantee stealth, along with an on-demand daze and blind unblockable teleport.

1. for D/D, death blossom: Just needs to be a full evade. If you have to shave off some damage or the bleed duration fine, but a power d/d build has no use in this because it is far too unreliable. Leave a short aftercast so it can’t be a perma evade (1/4 aftercast?) but make the evade last the duration of the animation (1/2 second).

I honestly don’t know why most of you say the dmg on dancing dagger is so bad. I have been using it lately and especially on bounce I feel it is actually pretty decent. I do run almost a full zerk build though so maybe that’s why?

The only thing I really have a problem is how many times you can hit the button, waste initiative, and it gets “obstructed” or “miss” for no reason at all. I don’t see why they can’t make it more like shortbow autoattack. It doesn’t miss like dancing dagger does.

Though they DID mention “bug fixes” in the upcoming patch for thief… so lets hope this is one of them!

Sir Kaboomski.1508:

I honestly don’t know why most of you say the dmg on dancing dagger is so bad. I have been using it lately and especially on bounce I feel it is actually pretty decent. I do run almost a full zerk build though so maybe that’s why?

The only thing I really have a problem is how many times you can hit the button, waste initiative, and it gets “obstructed” or “miss” for no reason at all. I don’t see why they can’t make it more like shortbow autoattack. It doesn’t miss like dancing dagger does.

Though they DID mention “bug fixes” in the upcoming patch for thief… so lets hope this is one of them!

i can imagine that it seems to have to less damage if you compare it with Shadowshot /HS which is/are the better option in most cases and in combination with your other skills since your goal as thief is mostly to burst/cases a single enemy. but as already mentioned i don’t see the main problem at dancing dagger why D/D is underwhelming against D/P f.e

Asomal.6453:

Cloak and Dagger: Descrease casting time to 0.25s
Dancing Dagger: Projectile travels faster and it’s more accurate

There you go.

Just to compliment my post, since the discussion was prolonged. I honestly think those 2 changes would sufficient to solve some of D/D’s problems. However, if is there one thing holding it back, it’s Death Blossom. It’s a condition based skill, in a mostly power type weapon, it just doesn’t fit.

Now, how do we fix it? I think it needs a completly overhaul. This is my proposition:

Death Blossom
- Evades into the enemy’s back (just like Ranger’s sword 3), applying 1 second of immobilize and 7 stacks of vunerability. Deals 0 damage. Has a 0.5 seconds aftercast time.

Yes, 0 damage. People have always complained about evade spam. It’s not fun do play against and it’s way too easy cheesy. The new hotness is PW, but Disabling Shot is also a target for the complaints. But don’t get me wrong, 0 is good for the set! It means you won’t get revealed while performing it. So it’s basically a skill for setting up Backstabs, hence 1 second immobilize, or just getting into your enemy’s back, putting in use all those traits/runes that benefits from flanking your foe!

@Orpheal, Your suggestions are absurdly overpowered.

@Original Post:

Torment instead of bleeds on Death Blossom with increased power damage but also a 1-2 higher initiative cost might help d/d both as a power and as a condi set.

Dancing Dagger is simply awful and should have increased damage and more accurate projectile

CnD should have reduced initiative given that it’s melee and has a reasonable cast time/tell.

@ infantry.

Thats your opinion, I think it would be not Op, my suggestions might need maybe some tweaks, but don’t forget that some of the more powerful suggestions above are linked with added traits for these effects

The Thief needs some heavy trait improvements. Lots of their traits could be merged to create some space for a few new traits.
Also don’t forget, you have to sacrifice specific other traits, so that you could use my suggested effect. Its a giving and taking here.

My suggested Dancing Dagger improvement is only specificly useful against players that spam constantly tons of Boons or play builds, that create multiple targets so that the Dagger actually can bounce around.
its a special shance to make Dancing Daggers a much better Counter Skill, because currently the thief is very lacking in specific Counter Skills and stealing boons is also absolutely something, what you should expect from a THIEF.
So now we can discuss naturally, if 3 boons is too much, or if there should also a trait decided over it, how many boons maximum could be stolen together with the effect to share the stolen boons with allies.

Heartseeker is the Thief’s Main Gap Closer besides of Shadow Steps from Shortbows, Steal or Utility KSilsl that let you Shadow Step and the Thief absolutely needs more mobility in my opinion to become the true fastest class of GW2, which is currently the overpowered Warrior.
Letting Heartseeker functionally also work more similar to the Whirlwindattack with a turnable Line of Sight-Ground Targeting makes the usagle of HS alot more comfortable and would allow it Thieves to make more comfortable very quick direction changes. The increase of the Max range is needed to make Thieves the true fastest class as Heart Seeker should have traited a bigger range than Whirlwind Attack of the Warrior.
Whirlwind Attack therefore has the big advantage compared to HS, that it can deal damage to multiple targets in a row and can deal multiple hits what means also multiple chances frot criticals, which then again means multiple chances to let crit hit sigil effects to trigger, what HS can not.

Changign Cloak and Dagger to a direct stealth skills is also not overpowered, as long the initiative cost doesn#t get changend and the skill animation gets changed, so that you clearly can see, if a thief uses cloak and dagger, just like you can clearly see, when a thief is using Hide in Shadows, which is a direct stealth self heal with an skill animation that lets you see from wide afar, that the thief is becoming invisible soon alone from watching the animation…

Changing Doule Strike from 2 s bit harder hits to 4 weaker hits that deal in total more damage (+10%) isn’t also really OP. The thief Auto Attack is by far from all Dagger Auto Attacks the absolute weakest seeing in how weak the first 2 hits from the Double Strike are, which could be a bit compasated by 10% more damage and a better chance in triggering on crit sigils.

Your changes to Deathblossom would be nonsense.
You don’t make DB any better by raising its power and on the same move raising its initiative cost. it would be still a very useless skill and very unviable compared to the other dual skills from other thief builds, as long the evade effect of DB is so ridiculous short, that it protects you from nothing and gets even completely ignored by CC skills totally, when you are basically evading the attack.
So increasign the evade time to 1s and making that 1s give also stability to the thief is an absolute must to make the skill a viable choice over playing the other thief builds, because the lack of Stability is one of the biggest issues of the Thief Class.

With my changes would be skillful thief players, that time the usage of DB at the right moment at least be finally able to fight back against for exaple hammer warriors that spam their knockdowns constantly when playing as a D/D if Death Blossom would actually do, what this skill is supposed to do by letting you evade the attack, also if its a CC skill. also Thiefs can’t use Death Blossom forever, so they also won’t have eternal stability. SO those changes absolutely won’t save your butt in WvW, but they would definetely increase a bit the survivability for thiefs for sure in SPvP when you are defending a spot against someone, whos heavily using CC skills.

Thats in regard what I’d do with the traits to make my proposed suggestions possible:

Under Critical Strikes

Merge Keen Observer together with Opportunist and name it Opportunist.
Add then as new Master Trait

Price of Demoralization
Your Dancing Daggers will steal up to maximum 3 Boons now instead of 2 and you share your stolen Boons now with up to 5 nearby allies.

Merge Furious Retaliation with Pistol Mastery under Furious Retaliation
Add then as new Adept Trait

“Precise Assasination”
Increases the Range from Heartseekers and adds to the functionality a Line of Sight-Ground Targeting Mechanic to make its usage more comfortable and precise/accurate in the execution.

This way will become D/D Thiefs also a better Group Support from the shared stolen Boons they could provide in battles.

Asomal.6453:

Asomal.6453:

Cloak and Dagger: Descrease casting time to 0.25s
Dancing Dagger: Projectile travels faster and it’s more accurate

There you go.

Just to compliment my post, since the discussion was prolonged. I honestly think those 2 changes would sufficient to solve some of D/D’s problems. However, if is there one thing holding it back, it’s Death Blossom. It’s a condition based skill, in a mostly power type weapon, it just doesn’t fit.

Now, how do we fix it? I think it needs a completly overhaul. This is my proposition:

Death Blossom
- Evades into the enemy’s back (just like Ranger’s sword 3), applying 1 second of immobilize and 7 stacks of vunerability. Deals 0 damage. Has a 0.5 seconds aftercast time.

Yes, 0 damage. People have always complained about evade spam. It’s not fun do play against and it’s way too easy cheesy. The new hotness is PW, but Disabling Shot is also a target for the complaints. But don’t get me wrong, 0 is good for the set! It means you won’t get revealed while performing it. So it’s basically a skill for setting up Backstabs, hence 1 second immobilize, or just getting into your enemy’s back, putting in use all those traits/runes that benefits from flanking your foe!

What? Idk about that. D/D doesn’t need more skills applying vulnerability, it just becomes redundant. Death blossom has a nice spot in the d/d kit it’s just the results and numbers aren’t anywhere near suitable. It’d be like adding another high spike damage for the #3 for d/d when we already have HS and CnD. A full evade with a short aftercast to avoid rewarding spamming it, and d/d would have a nice meaningful kit. Fix dancing dagger and all 4 skills for d/d will be of use and easily compete with d/p. Quite frankly I want to use d/d but I just hate not having the #3 and #4 from d/p (I rarely ever use bps unless im stomping or combo it with blinding powder to escape a fight).

Orpheal.8263:

Thats in regard what I’d do with the traits to make my proposed suggestions possible:

Under Critical Strikes

Merge Keen Observer together with Opportunist and name it Opportunist.
Add then as new Master Trait

Price of Demoralization
Your Dancing Daggers will steal up to maximum 3 Boons now instead of 2 and you share your stolen Boons now with up to 5 nearby allies.

Merge Furious Retaliation with Pistol Mastery under Furious Retaliation
Add then as new Adept Trait

“Precise Assasination”
Increases the Range from Heartseekers and adds to the functionality a Line of Sight-Ground Targeting Mechanic to make its usage more comfortable and precise/accurate in the execution.

This way will become D/D Thiefs also a better Group Support from the shared stolen Boons they could provide in battles.

Lmao. I can’t tell if you are trolling or actually think these changes are in any shape or form balanced.

Do you even understand how powerful boon steal is? Obviously not.