Guild Wars 2

Hey Forum Folk,
I know a decent amount of whats below is a bit of a re-telling, but I thought I’d give the discussion a bump with a freshly CDI-formatted post.

Proposal Overview

As a form of horizontal progression, the Mesmer would benefit from an additional, alternate behavioral set for phantasms. Functionally, these changes would treat phantasms more like standard attacks and utilities, and less like AI summons.

Overall, a Mesmer utilizing this alternate behavioral set should feel stronger and more relevant in a larger engagements at the cost of feeling more resource starved in smaller engagements and duels.

Goal of Proposal

Due to their glassy, target-locked nature, phantasms, which can represent a significant portion of a Mesmer’s presence, drastically lose value in larger engagements where enemy AoE and cleaving are ubiquitous.

Further, in their current manifestation, phantasms promote a heavy reliance on AI, which is widely viewed as unengaging both to play-as and to play against.

Therefore, the primary goals of this proposal are to

• Increase the Mesmer’s ability to contribute in larger-scaled engagements
• Promote active, skill-driven gameplay
• Provide an alternative play style for those who appreciate the Mesmer profession, but do not enjoy reliance on AI

Proposal Functionality

Many skill cool downs, cast times, damage values, and other factors will likely need to be adjusted to accommodate new behavioral patterns; however, such things are not quantitatively discussed in this proposal in an attempt to focus on higher-level design points. Any numbers mentioned here are purely “ball-parked.”

Seminal Changes (apply to all phantasms)

• Phantasms act only once per summoning and are then removed.
• Phantasms are invulnerable.
• Phantasms that act through AoE are now ground cast, rather than target cast.
• Phantasms do not count towards the 3-illusion maximum and cannot be shattered.

Phantasmal Berserker: Click and hold to designate origin location. Drag and release to designate attack direction.

Phantasmal Mage: [Functionality Change] This is now an AoE attack with radius 240. The iMage will be summoned in a random area near the target area to preform its attack and to indicate to the opponent that the attack is being preformed.

Phantasmal Duelist: Only adjusted by seminal changes.

Phantasmal Warden: Now summoned as an AoE ground cast.

Phantasmal Defender: [Functionality Change] This is now an AoE spell with radius 240. It now also has a short, timed-life. The iDefender will be summoned in the center of the AoE to preform its ability and to indicate to the opponent that the ability is being preformed.

The next batch of proposed changes are mostly for discussion purposes, as bundling them with the above changes may give the Mesmer an unwieldy amount of AoE and/or devalue some tools that might balance out the play style of new behavioral set.

Phantasmal Warlock: [Functionality Change] The iWarlock is now an attack that does less base damage, but its now AoE with radius 240. The iWarlock will be summoned in a random area near the target area to preform its attack and to indicate to the opponent that the attack is being preformed.

Phantasmal Disenchanter: [Functionality Change] This is now an AoE spell with radius 240. The iDisenchanter will be summoned in a random area near the target area to preform its ability and to indicate to the opponent that the ability is being preformed.

Phantasmal Duelist: [Functionality Change] Added piercing attacks and a widened cone of fire. Click and hold to designate origin location. Drag and release to designate attack direction.

All changes would be made through trait selection, most likely via a hefty Grandmaster trait with some associated master/adept traits.

The following could be used To distinguish traited/untriated Mesmers:

• A permanent buffbar icon, both to phantasms and the sourcing Mesmer
• A distinguishing particle effect (e.g. Ele’s have attunements represented around their wrists)
• A different coloring/texturing of phantasms (recommended: dark purple)

Associated Risks

• If implemented via the trait system, conveying the volume of changes made to the class mechanics could prove difficult. This additionally means that newer players would struggle even more when learning to duel Mesmers.
• Bugs! The Mesmer is a class well known for bugs that cripple its essential mechanics (lookin’ at you, iLeap). A large undertaking like this one would no doubt unearth some new bugs.

I have to disagree to the idea of phantasm being a single action and then vanish spell. the fact that they phantasms stay around can be a life saver don’t know how many time they have save me in pve. and yesterday me and guardian downed each other at the same time my phantasms stayed around and stopped him from getting up and stomping me and allowed me to kill him instead.

beyond that i’d be fine with most of the suggestions in your post.

This is actually eerily similar to my planned Mesmer profession balance thread suggestion—at least in the aspect of adding skill chains to Mesmer phantasms. One of the worst aspects of Mesmer design is that everything requires a target. Because everything requires a target, it’s all auto-aimed for you. This paradigm not only makes it difficult for Mesmers to really control their phantasms, but also just removes any skillful usage of a Phantasm outside of being able to press a button at a proper time.

Making Phantasms into more active abilities with ground-targeted reticles would increase the skill-cap of the Mesmer tremendously.

Also, I like the idea of the “drag and click” Phantasmal Berserker reticle. I didn’t want to add any new mechanics to the game, but I suppose you can be as auspicious as you want. I sure don’t care enough anymore since nobody else really does.

In short you would have all phantasms removed and replaced by AoE skills.

Korgov.7645:

In short you would have all phantasms removed and replaced by AoE skills.

Being forced to aim attacks scares anyone in this game.

Phantasms are something distinguishing mesmers from other professions. AoE skill with pink delivery boy animation is just another AoE skill.

Phantasms are something distinguishing mesmers from other professions. AoE skill with pink delivery boy animation is just another AoE skill.

And if you want to play a profession with heavy AoE roll an Elementalist.

Swagg.9236:

This is actually eerily similar to my planned Mesmer profession balance thread suggestion—at least in the aspect of adding skill chains to Mesmer phantasms.
…
Also, I like the idea of the “drag and click” Phantasmal Berserker reticle. I didn’t want to add any new mechanics to the game, but I suppose you can be as auspicious as you want. I sure don’t care enough anymore since nobody else really does.

Hah, glad to be on the same page. As you’ve probably noticed via some borrowed formatting and stylistic choices, I follow your posts, and I’ve been eagerly awaiting the Mesmer edition since your first thread on Necros. Though I may not agree with all your proposed changes, I find them typically well-thought and a good representation of the communities desire for more active, skillful gameplay.

Regarding the addition of new mechanics, if the click and drag proved cumbersome to develop, I’d imagine a possible substitute might be a ranged “line” cast like any of the wall-type skills currently in game, just with expanded width and length to match the attack.

3753123:macvanilla.4631:

Phantasms are something distinguishing mesmers from other professions. AoE skill with pink delivery boy animation is just another AoE skill.

And if you want to play a profession with heavy AoE roll an Elementalist.

My intention with this proposal was not to threaten the identity of the Mesmer or other classes. Thematically, I agree that phantasms are a significant component of a Mesmer, but mechanically, they’re no more defining to the profession than minions to a Necromancer, Spirit weapons to a Guardian, or Turrets to and Engineer: These things are all (generally speaking) persistent second-body damage and utility sources. The unfortunate difference between Mesmer and other professions is that Mesmers are currently inseparable from reliance on this type of AI.

That said, functionally speaking, the proposed changes weigh very little against the actual purposing of the individual phantasms; rather, the emphasis is placed on the delivery system such that Mesmers can utilize the tools already available to them in a broader scope of engagements.

jarthur.3649:

I have to disagree to the idea of phantasm being a single action and then vanish spell. the fact that they phantasms stay around can be a life saver don’t know how many time they have save me in pve. and yesterday me and guardian downed each other at the same time my phantasms stayed around and stopped him from getting up and stomping me and allowed me to kill him instead.

I understand your position, which is precisely why I suggested that these proposed changes be implemented via a side-grade in the trait system. If people like their AI builds – I know they’re especially popular in PvE dungeons – they should be able to keep them (inb4 swagg disagrees with me here). I would just like to see a broader functional palate for Mesmer.

okay that makes more sense didn’t understand that part of the post the first time, also if it was added as a grandmaster trait should probably be inspiration grandmaster.

now that I’ve thought about it wouldn’t the single use also decrease phantasm dps/condition application significantly

as an idea for easily spotting the difference between traited and untraited you could put the aura bug as a actual effect ex. of the bug is currently in the mesmer forum under what the hell is this.

Tauhx.2504:

Regarding the addition of new mechanics, if the click and drag proved cumbersome to develop, I’d imagine a possible substitute might be a ranged “line” cast like any of the wall-type skills currently in game, just with expanded width and length to match the attack.

That could work too. I don’t want to say that pushing for new mechanics would be bad (honestly, having that kind of control for a ground-targeted ability would be amazing), but I just wouldn’t push it onto ANet to ever see it through.

Tauhx.2504:

I understand your position, which is precisely why I suggested that these proposed changes be implemented via a side-grade in the trait system. If people like their AI builds – I know they’re especially popular in PvE dungeons – they should be able to keep them (inb4 swagg disagrees with me here). I would just like to see a broader functional palate for Mesmer.

AI isn’t completely awful so long as the player has to actively manipulate it in order for it to be effective. Making phantasms into purely ground-targeted abilities would put all of the control and responsibility in the hands of the player. It would be on a level far above something like Minionmancer or even just the regular Ranger that brings two dogs because he knows that they like to use leaping knock-downs on occasion. Putting the AI attacks in the player’s hands makes AI skills clutch instead of a passive cloud of procs that just happen while the player faffs about in a circle.

Whats wrong with depending on Allies to join you? Is the idea of it being controling by something other than you direct mouse so bad? I would say managing those AI, when to depend on them and when to shatter then is what makes this class fun to play.

But heres a problem you guys dont realize. Micromanaging. No one would play this new Mesmer because it have you constantly trying to control every tiny little thing to even make your skills work. It’s hard enough to time your dodges and evasions, as well as skills like block properly, now you want Mesmers to throw out complex mouse controls because of your dislike of anything not in 100% control? no thank you

Well it’s the reason why I hate my ranger and it’s the reason why I haven’t made a mesmer yet. If there was a trait to take mesmer away from all this passive single target damage, I would have one already.

Maybe you could make it so that all phantasms are chain skills such that the first activation creates the phantasm and all subsequent activations activate its skill, but require selecting a target/aiming AoE?
For example, casting phantasmal berserker would summon the phantasm at a target location, and a second cast would cause the whirl (in a similar manner to other targeted directional rushes), and could activate every x seconds (whatever the current timer is).
This would both make phantasms be more skillful and would allow for better control over AI. You would be able to attack stealthed enemies with zerker and target groups better, but it would take longer and potentially be less precise than a computer.
Has merits, but also a few things against it. Something to think about at least.

applauds Daddy now THAT would work. It still has the control ides without the insane micromanaging, even if it is still a bit too micromanagy.

VideoGamermike.5813:

applauds Daddy now THAT would work. It still has the control ides without the insane micromanaging, even if it is still a bit too micromanagy.

Yeah, I’m not sure how I feel about it myself. My main for a while was a shatter mesmer, and all the speed presses I needed could be a potential conflict. It would certainly be an improvement in groups, but I’m still undecided.

P Fun Daddy.1208:

VideoGamermike.5813:

applauds Daddy now THAT would work. It still has the control ides without the insane micromanaging, even if it is still a bit too micromanagy.

Yeah, I’m not sure how I feel about it myself. My main for a while was a shatter mesmer, and all the speed presses I needed could be a potential conflict. It would certainly be an improvement in groups, but I’m still undecided.

With 1 phantasm out and not swapping weapons it might be OK. With 3 phantasms we would need a new skill bar in addition to F1-F4. Like making the 3 pink circles as buttons to click to active phantasm skills. Sounds too complicated.

Monoman.2068:

Well it’s the reason why I hate my ranger and it’s the reason why I haven’t made a mesmer yet. If there was a trait to take mesmer away from all this passive single target damage, I would have one already.

You might want to look into shatter builds. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Guide-WvWvW-Pve-Shatter-Cat-2014-02-23/first

While I feel that the mesmerizing does need a rework I’m not entirely sure phantasm changes alone would be a stopping point.

What if some were entirely replaced with skills similar to shatters?
For instance warlock replaced with a skill that generates the attack from all clones you have active. Damage and effects split but increasing slightly…

Personally tho I would like to see the return to a more gw1 style where the mesmerizing is the master of cc and doesn’t rely on a as a primary source for boons defense conditions or damage.

Clones should feel optional and carry more weight. Causing confusion by mirroring the mesmer… Also can we please remove the heavy reliance on Los and target distance.. No one else has to wait to use a pet ai.