Guild Wars 2

Calavel you’re completely off base. They’re in the F1-4 skill slots, but they’re not considered skills.

This is proof because if so, reducing 20% in earth would reduce attunement swap earth. And since they’re not skills like our skill bar skills, they shouldn’t be affected by chill like our skill bar skills.

Should engie toolbelt skills get this change? No! They are real skills with real effects.
Should engie kits get this change? Yes! They are the only wep swapping mechanics they have as well.

Like Ganathar said, every class can trait for effects on swap, and so can ele. Otherwise we get nothing just like everybody else.

calavel.6249:

Please stop pretending Attunement is “just weapon swap for eles”. No other class can weapon swap between 20 different skills. No other class besides warrior can trigger any sort of effect on weapon swap. It’s F1-F4 skills and those skills are affected by chill. Should Engineer toolbelt skills also be immune to chill? No. And only necro has easy, reliable access to chill.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elementalist

When one of these attunement skills is activated, the weapon skills of the player change based on the equipped weapon(s) and the chosen element. Because these attunements can be freely swapped even while in combat, effectively giving access to four different weapon skill sets, elementalists do not have access to weapon swapping like most other professions.

It is stated here that the Elementalists don’t have access to “weapon swapping” because Attunement Swapping is considered as the elementalist’s “weapon swap” which gives them access to other weapon skills.

They also have the lowest base health in comparison to other professions, so they have to make up for their lack of durability under fire by managing their attunements and skills carefully and avoid putting themselves in dangerous situations.

The effects of chill on Attunement swapping greatly contradicts this description of elementalists. Chill on attunement swapping tends to lock out an elementalist from an attunement they’ve recently swapped out of much longer which greatly hampers their ability to “adapt”.

I don’t understand why you’re comparing Attunement Swapping to Toolbelt skills. Engineers change “weapon sets” by using Weapon Kits, not Toolbelt skills.

And your statement about Necros being the only class to have easy reliable access to chill is false. It does not give justice that Elementalist is hard countered by one single condition.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chilled

Just thought of something this could be a case of designing around the fact that traits exist that give the attunement swaps effects and the chill interaction is there to counterbalance that.

Not saying that it should or should not be that way just presenting a point of view shift.

Mbelch.9028:

Calavel you’re completely off base. They’re in the F1-4 skill slots, but they’re not considered skills.

This is proof because if so, reducing 20% in earth would reduce attunement swap earth. And since they’re not skills like our skill bar skills, they shouldn’t be affected by chill like our skill bar skills.

Should engie toolbelt skills get this change? No! They are real skills with real effects.
Should engie kits get this change? Yes! They are the only wep swapping mechanics they have as well.

Like Ganathar said, every class can trait for effects on swap, and so can ele. Otherwise we get nothing just like everybody else.

Sorry, but I’m still not convinced. I see I was a bit too quick claiming that only warriors can trait for weapon swap effects, I forgot about engineers and thieves and had no idea rangers could trait for it.
But the fact that Attunement is both weapon swapping and class mechanic (traitable for 30% CD reduction like any class mechanic) obviously makes it different from regular weapon swapping. Saying Attunement should be subject to exactly the same effects and limitations as regular weapon swapping doesn’t seem right to me. It’s not exactly the same and it never will be.

Kyon.9735:

And your statement about Necros being the only class to have easy reliable access to chill is false. It does not give justice that Elementalist is hard countered by one single condition.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chilled

All I see are necro skills, ele skills, a bunch of specific ranger pet skills, a ranger axe skill, Freeze Grenade and either random condition skills or skills that are never used. Oh, and a joke elite. Cute.
The only one that seem marginally reliable outside necros and eles is the ranger axe skill. Is eles getting chilled by eles a problem? Isn’t it sort of countered by the fact that they can both chill?

If it makes any difference, I think chilled is completely out of place in its current form. Messing with skill recharge is not an ele or a necro’s job, that’s what mesmers do (well, used to do).
I think they should rework confusion to be a timing-based non-spammable effect that increases skill recharge(s) if the target uses a skill whiled affected and add something different to chilled (15% heal penalty maybe? Fumble? I dunno).

calavel.6249:

Mbelch.9028:

Calavel you’re completely off base. They’re in the F1-4 skill slots, but they’re not considered skills.

This is proof because if so, reducing 20% in earth would reduce attunement swap earth. And since they’re not skills like our skill bar skills, they shouldn’t be affected by chill like our skill bar skills.

Should engie toolbelt skills get this change? No! They are real skills with real effects.
Should engie kits get this change? Yes! They are the only wep swapping mechanics they have as well.

Like Ganathar said, every class can trait for effects on swap, and so can ele. Otherwise we get nothing just like everybody else.

Sorry, but I’m still not convinced. I see I was a bit too quick claiming that only warriors can trait for weapon swap effects, I forgot about engineers and thieves and had no idea rangers could trait for it.
But the fact that Attunement is both weapon swapping and class mechanic (traitable for 30% CD reduction like any class mechanic) obviously makes it different from regular weapon swapping. Saying Attunement should be subject to exactly the same effects and limitations as regular weapon swapping doesn’t seem right to me. It’s not exactly the same and it never will be.

I’m not trying to convince you. I’m telling you facts.

Many classes can trait for lower weapon swapping, just as we can trait for lower swapping. But our swaps — still stuck at an incredibly long 9 seconds — aren’t even reduced by much. Sorry, swing and a miss there.

Elementalists are hit doubly hard for our access to extra skills, when our access ALREADY comes at a very, very high price.

You quite obviously do not play ele. 2/10 for effort.

Mbelch.9028:

calavel.6249:

Mbelch.9028:

Calavel you’re completely off base. They’re in the F1-4 skill slots, but they’re not considered skills.

This is proof because if so, reducing 20% in earth would reduce attunement swap earth. And since they’re not skills like our skill bar skills, they shouldn’t be affected by chill like our skill bar skills.

Should engie toolbelt skills get this change? No! They are real skills with real effects.
Should engie kits get this change? Yes! They are the only wep swapping mechanics they have as well.

Like Ganathar said, every class can trait for effects on swap, and so can ele. Otherwise we get nothing just like everybody else.

Sorry, but I’m still not convinced. I see I was a bit too quick claiming that only warriors can trait for weapon swap effects, I forgot about engineers and thieves and had no idea rangers could trait for it.
But the fact that Attunement is both weapon swapping and class mechanic (traitable for 30% CD reduction like any class mechanic) obviously makes it different from regular weapon swapping. Saying Attunement should be subject to exactly the same effects and limitations as regular weapon swapping doesn’t seem right to me. It’s not exactly the same and it never will be.

I’m not trying to convince you. I’m telling you facts.

Many classes can trait for lower weapon swapping, just as we can trait for lower swapping. But our swaps — still stuck at an incredibly long 9 seconds — aren’t even reduced by much. Sorry, swing and a miss there.

Elementalists are hit doubly hard for our access to extra skills, when our access ALREADY comes at a very, very high price.

You quite obviously do not play ele. 2/10 for effort.

Actually only warrior is lowering the cool down of weapon swapping through traits. It would take a six piece rune set to lower any other non-warrior to 9 second swap that you consider ‘incredibly long’.

Bran.7425:

Mbelch.9028:

calavel.6249:

Mbelch.9028:

Calavel you’re completely off base. They’re in the F1-4 skill slots, but they’re not considered skills.

This is proof because if so, reducing 20% in earth would reduce attunement swap earth. And since they’re not skills like our skill bar skills, they shouldn’t be affected by chill like our skill bar skills.

Should engie toolbelt skills get this change? No! They are real skills with real effects.
Should engie kits get this change? Yes! They are the only wep swapping mechanics they have as well.

Like Ganathar said, every class can trait for effects on swap, and so can ele. Otherwise we get nothing just like everybody else.

Sorry, but I’m still not convinced. I see I was a bit too quick claiming that only warriors can trait for weapon swap effects, I forgot about engineers and thieves and had no idea rangers could trait for it.
But the fact that Attunement is both weapon swapping and class mechanic (traitable for 30% CD reduction like any class mechanic) obviously makes it different from regular weapon swapping. Saying Attunement should be subject to exactly the same effects and limitations as regular weapon swapping doesn’t seem right to me. It’s not exactly the same and it never will be.

I’m not trying to convince you. I’m telling you facts.

Many classes can trait for lower weapon swapping, just as we can trait for lower swapping. But our swaps — still stuck at an incredibly long 9 seconds — aren’t even reduced by much. Sorry, swing and a miss there.

Elementalists are hit doubly hard for our access to extra skills, when our access ALREADY comes at a very, very high price.

You quite obviously do not play ele. 2/10 for effort.

Actually only warrior is lowering the cool down of weapon swapping through traits. It would take a six piece rune set to lower any other non-warrior to 9 second swap that you consider ‘incredibly long’.

When it takes a few skills from two to three attunements to chain any type of effective attack or defense together, the combined weapon swap becomes 18 seconds or 27 seconds. That’s plain poor planning. Weapon swapping shouldn’t be as easy as engineer kit swapping but it shouldn’t be punished THIS much. Are you joking?

Many classes can get that, is my point. Two cannot. Because our weapon swapping mechanic is different.

F1-4 is ours.

calavel.6249:

Mbelch.9028:

Calavel you’re completely off base. They’re in the F1-4 skill slots, but they’re not considered skills.

This is proof because if so, reducing 20% in earth would reduce attunement swap earth. And since they’re not skills like our skill bar skills, they shouldn’t be affected by chill like our skill bar skills.

Should engie toolbelt skills get this change? No! They are real skills with real effects.
Should engie kits get this change? Yes! They are the only wep swapping mechanics they have as well.

Like Ganathar said, every class can trait for effects on swap, and so can ele. Otherwise we get nothing just like everybody else.

Sorry, but I’m still not convinced. I see I was a bit too quick claiming that only warriors can trait for weapon swap effects, I forgot about engineers and thieves and had no idea rangers could trait for it.
But the fact that Attunement is both weapon swapping and class mechanic (traitable for 30% CD reduction like any class mechanic) obviously makes it different from regular weapon swapping. Saying Attunement should be subject to exactly the same effects and limitations as regular weapon swapping doesn’t seem right to me. It’s not exactly the same and it never will be.

Kyon.9735:

And your statement about Necros being the only class to have easy reliable access to chill is false. It does not give justice that Elementalist is hard countered by one single condition.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chilled

All I see are necro skills, ele skills, a bunch of specific ranger pet skills, a ranger axe skill, Freeze Grenade and either random condition skills or skills that are never used. Oh, and a joke elite. Cute.
The only one that seem marginally reliable outside necros and eles is the ranger axe skill. Is eles getting chilled by eles a problem? Isn’t it sort of countered by the fact that they can both chill?

If it makes any difference, I think chilled is completely out of place in its current form. Messing with skill recharge is not an ele or a necro’s job, that’s what mesmers do (well, used to do).
I think they should rework confusion to be a timing-based non-spammable effect that increases skill recharge(s) if the target uses a skill whiled affected and add something different to chilled (15% heal penalty maybe? Fumble? I dunno).

Yet it shows there are other classes that has decent and reliable access to chill contradictory to what you claim.

Care about giving your comments on Anet justifying that Eles don’t have “weapon swap” because they have “Attunement Swap” as a substitute?

Mbelch.9028:

Many classes can trait for lower weapon swapping, just as we can trait for lower swapping. But our swaps — still stuck at an incredibly long 9 seconds — aren’t even reduced by much. Sorry, swing and a miss there.

Elementalists are hit doubly hard for our access to extra skills, when our access ALREADY comes at a very, very high price.

You quite obviously do not play ele. 2/10 for effort.

Warrior is the only class that can trait for actual weapon swapping CD; they can reduce it to 5s. All other classes apart from eles and engineers are stuck at 10 base. Also, your “weapon swap” is not “stuck” at 9 seconds in the same way that other classes are stuck at 5 or 10 because you have 4 “weapons sets”. You are once again ignoring the fact that Attunement isn’t just weapon swapping and shouldn’t be treated in exactly the same way. Swapping is something that is highly restricted outside warriors, and for a good reason.

No, I don’t play an ele, but I played one enough to understand how its class mechanic works. Do you play other classes? Because you don’t seem to understand that weapon swapping is a huge deal, and that ele weapon swapping has unique benefits as well as problems.

Mbelch.9028:

When it takes a few skills from two to three attunements to chain any type of effective attack or defense together, the combined weapon swap becomes 18 seconds or 27 seconds. That’s plain poor planning. Weapon swapping shouldn’t be as easy as engineer kit swapping but it shouldn’t be punished THIS much. Are you joking?

Many classes can get that, is my point. Two cannot. Because our weapon swapping mechanic is different.

F1-4 is ours.

Slippery slop there with the use of the word ‘effective’ that is very subjective in nature as is the assumption you must continually string to skills from different attunements to gain said subjective ‘effectiveness’. I am just stating that the cool down for any other non-warrior profession that possesses the weapon swap mechanic is 9 seconds with a complete rune set and that you stated is a very long time.

Why did it take plain facts to bring up your concept of ‘combined swap’?

So far the only joke here is your arguments. I only point this out because use of deceptive or outright false information will not get any changes made.

calavel.6249:

Mbelch.9028:

Many classes can trait for lower weapon swapping, just as we can trait for lower swapping. But our swaps — still stuck at an incredibly long 9 seconds — aren’t even reduced by much. Sorry, swing and a miss there.

Elementalists are hit doubly hard for our access to extra skills, when our access ALREADY comes at a very, very high price.

You quite obviously do not play ele. 2/10 for effort.

Warrior is the only class that can trait for actual weapon swapping CD; they can reduce it to 5s. All other classes apart from eles and engineers are stuck at 10 base. Also, your “weapon swap” is not “stuck” at 9 seconds in the same way that other classes are stuck at 5 or 10 because you have 4 “weapons sets”. You are once again ignoring the fact that Attunement isn’t just weapon swapping and shouldn’t be treated in exactly the same way. Swapping is something that is highly restricted outside warriors, and for a good reason.

Isn’t the real point in this “weapon swap” mechanic you’re trying to point out is that Elementalists need to trait 30 points to get that 9 second Attunement Swap cooldown? And Attunement Swapping aka “weapon swapping” is the Elementalist’s Class Mechanic.

So having thief initiative be immune to chill is ok because it would cripple the class too much against chill.
But having ele swaps be immune to chill is not ok and eles should deal with it even if it cripples the class. Sound LOLgic.

Kyon.9735:

Yet it shows there are other classes that has decent and reliable access to chill contradictory to what you claim.

Care about giving your comments on Anet justifying that Eles don’t have “weapon swap” because they have “Attunement Swap” as a substitute?

No, it shows eles and necros have reliable access to chill. Again, I don’t know if eles chilling eles is a problem or not, I don’t really see it mentioned specifically anywhere, only necro. The rest are either long cooldown skills, pet skills, random procs or skills no one uses outside gimmick builds. I know little about rangers so I don’t know if axe is commonly used, but I’ve never seen one

Regarding the A-net quote…
I really think it depends on how you read it. What you seem to get out of it is that Attunement is (among other things) a replacement for the weapon swapping mechanic of other classes. What I get out of it is that because eles have Attunement – which is arguably better than actual weapon swapping – you get punished by not having weapon swapping. Chill is part of that punishment, but of course there is always room for adjustment and as I mentioned earlier, I’m not a huge fan of the way chill works right now in general.

calavel.6249:

Kyon.9735:

Yet it shows there are other classes that has decent and reliable access to chill contradictory to what you claim.

Care about giving your comments on Anet justifying that Eles don’t have “weapon swap” because they have “Attunement Swap” as a substitute?

No, it shows eles and necros have reliable access to chill. Again, I don’t know if eles chilling eles is a problem or not, I don’t really see it mentioned specifically anywhere, only necro. The rest are either long cooldown skills, pet skills, random procs or skills no one uses outside gimmick builds. I know little about rangers so I don’t know if axe is commonly used, but I’ve never seen one

Regarding the A-net quote…
I really think it depends on how you read it. What you seem to get out of it is that Attunement is a replacement for the weapon swapping mechanic of other classes. What I get out of it is that because eles have Attunement – which is arguably better than actual weapon swapping – you get punished by not having weapon swapping. Chill is part of that punishment, but of course there is always room for adjustment and as I mentioned earlier, I’m not a huge fan of the way chill works right now in general.

Chill being part of the punishment makes no sense because eles have higher cooldowns than other classes and because the chill punishment is only in effect if you are against certain opponents. It just screams of awful design.

In addition I don’t see any other profession get punished for their profession mechanic except ranger who only gets punished because their mechanic is buggy.

calavel.6249:

Kyon.9735:

Yet it shows there are other classes that has decent and reliable access to chill contradictory to what you claim.

Care about giving your comments on Anet justifying that Eles don’t have “weapon swap” because they have “Attunement Swap” as a substitute?

No, it shows eles and necros have reliable access to chill. Again, I don’t know if eles chilling eles is a problem or not, I don’t really see it mentioned specifically anywhere, only necro. The rest are either long cooldown skills, pet skills, random procs or skills no one uses outside gimmick builds. I know little about rangers so I don’t know if axe is commonly used, but I’ve never seen one

Regarding the A-net quote…
I really think it depends on how you read it. What you seem to get out of it is that Attunement is a replacement for the weapon swapping mechanic of other classes. What I get out of it is that because eles have Attunement – which is arguably better than actual weapon swapping – you get punished by not having weapon swapping. Chill is part of that punishment, but of course there is always room for adjustment and as I mentioned earlier, I’m not a huge fan of the way chill works right now in general.

Never did I state that necros specifically counters Ele. I’m talking about Chill in general, not class specific.

Punishment? You can view it that way but that means Elementalists were already punished by not having weapon swap. Now add Chill effect and that’s not punishment anymore but rather a sabotage.

Like Ganathar said, Thief Initiatives not getting affected by Chill is game breaking but Attunement Swap should be fine with it? Yeah, pure logic.

Kyon.9735:

calavel.6249:

Kyon.9735:

Yet it shows there are other classes that has decent and reliable access to chill contradictory to what you claim.

Care about giving your comments on Anet justifying that Eles don’t have “weapon swap” because they have “Attunement Swap” as a substitute?

No, it shows eles and necros have reliable access to chill. Again, I don’t know if eles chilling eles is a problem or not, I don’t really see it mentioned specifically anywhere, only necro. The rest are either long cooldown skills, pet skills, random procs or skills no one uses outside gimmick builds. I know little about rangers so I don’t know if axe is commonly used, but I’ve never seen one

Regarding the A-net quote…
I really think it depends on how you read it. What you seem to get out of it is that Attunement is a replacement for the weapon swapping mechanic of other classes. What I get out of it is that because eles have Attunement – which is arguably better than actual weapon swapping – you get punished by not having weapon swapping. Chill is part of that punishment, but of course there is always room for adjustment and as I mentioned earlier, I’m not a huge fan of the way chill works right now in general.

Never did I state that necros specifically counters Ele. I’m talking about Chill in general, not class specific.

Punishment? You can view it that way but that means Elementalists were already punished by not having weapon swap. Now add Chill effect and that’s not punishment anymore but rather a sabotage.

Like Ganathar said, Thief Initiatives not getting affected by Chill is game breaking but Attunement Swap should be fine with it? Yeah, pure logic.

Yes, and having no weapon swap is a bigger punishment than one would realize. It means that eles can’t have both melee and ranged options at the same time.
Maybe I should make a pro and con list of what attunements provide as a class mechanic so people can realize how bad eles have it atm.

Well, in my opinion reliable chill is limited to necros and eles. I’ve yet to hear you address this other than flat out disagreeing and offering no arguments either way apart from a wiki link. Yes, it’s a very impressive list of ranger pet skills, but unless you get assaulted by an arctic zoo, it’s not going to be a real problem.

And may I repeat myself once again and state that weapon swapping in general is a huge deal and that 4 weapon sets instead of 2 is an even larger one? Is this also to be completely ignored in this discussion or is it simply that anything that messes with Attunement is OP and must be removed/nerfed? Because if that is the argument here, I might as well stop now.

calavel.6249:

Well, in my opinion reliable chill is limited to necros and eles. I’ve yet to hear you address this other than flat out disagreeing and offering no arguments either way apart from a wiki link. Yes, it’s a very impressive list of ranger pet skills, but unless you get assaulted by an arctic zoo, it’s not going to be a real problem.

And may I repeat myself once again and state that weapon swapping in general is a huge deal and that 4 weapon sets instead of 2 is an even larger one? Is this also to be completely ignored in this discussion or is it simply that anything that messes with Attunement is OP and must be removed/nerfed? Because if that is the argument here, I might as well stop now.

It’s not ignored because I have already mentioned that eles have higher cooldowns to balance out that they have more skills. Look at the last post in page 2.

calavel.6249:

Well, in my opinion reliable chill is limited to necros and eles. I’ve yet to hear you address this other than flat out disagreeing and offering no arguments either way apart from a wiki link. Yes, it’s a very impressive list of ranger pet skills, but unless you get assaulted by an arctic zoo, it’s not going to be a real problem.

And may I repeat myself once again and state that weapon swapping in general is a huge deal and that 4 weapon sets instead of 2 is an even larger one? Is this also to be completely ignored in this discussion or is it simply that anything that messes with Attunement is OP and must be removed/nerfed? Because if that is the argument here, I might as well stop now.

I throw out the official Wiki links at you because these are facts and facts are always more reliable than opinions.

It has already been stated in the Wiki itself, Elementalists have 4 attunements because they don’t have weapon swap mechanic, they have the lowest HP and armor in the game with no active defenses like stealth or clones, and Elementalists have high cooldown skills in general.

Kyon.9735:

I throw out the official Wiki links at you because these are facts and *facts are always more reliable than opinions.

A list of skills doesn’t tell you anything. It doesn’t tell you if those skills are often used or not, whether they are considered good by that class or not, whether they have synergy with traits/gear or not. That they are available in the game does not mean that they are a good choice. You could run a human character with all the racial prayer skills, but it would make no sense as there is no synergy with anything.

Getting chilled should recharge water attunement it only makes sense

calavel.6249:

Kyon.9735:

I throw out the official Wiki links at you because these are facts and *facts are always more reliable than opinions.

A list of skills doesn’t tell you anything. It doesn’t tell you if those skills are often used or not, whether they are considered good by that class or not, whether they have synergy with traits/gear or not. That they are available in the game does not mean that they are a good choice. You could run a human character with all the racial prayer skills, but it would make no sense as there is no synergy with anything.

Your argument was that only Necros have decent and reliable access to chill, so I gave you a link showing all weapon skills, utilities, and special effects that grants chill. You said it yourself, Rangers and Elementalists have plenty of access to chill as well and they generally have decent cooldown too. But why is it that chill gets more noticed on necros? Because their most usual role is to spam conditions and that includes chill. Elementalists and Rangers have the ability to spam chill as well if they build for it but they’re better off with Power Builds or Bunker builds (for rangers).

So lets do a quick comparison why don’t we.

Engineer: Has kit skills that the 1second cooldown is affected by chill, each kit gives you 5 more skills on top of the 5 from your basic weapon. Their weapon swap mechanic is related to their kits. So if the Engi is to say run 3 kits they now have 20 skills to use (I don’t count med kit in this) and only the cooldown of those skills are generally affected since the swapping is only changed to 1.6 seconds. How is that truly fair by your arguments?
Theif: Initiative is totally ignored as a class mechanic by chill on a class that already only has cooldowns on their steal and utils. (Also, take in to account that theifs fighting an ele can steal a shard that gives 20s of chill to target. )
Rest of class: Can swap every 10 seconds (or less for warrior if they trait for it.)

Elementalist: 20 skills between 4 attunements. Most skills that are actively used for defense or hard hitting skills sit at a 30-50 second cooldown. Past that skills avg between about 10s recharge.

So are you telling me Chill doesn’t effect us already more then the other classes? Not to mention we are forced to trait to get that 9s and otherwise we get 13s down from 15s before the update to change that. Mind you this is another reason we are forced to trait 30 points in to Arcana, since instead of 25s recharge it is 15s recharge on chill. This is on top of all of our other skills.

Now lets look at some more facts.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Attunement
So your argument of them being skills is supported by the wiki. Though the 1.65s becomes 2.74s as well the 9-13 becomes 15-25s. So we get hit by both of those as well as already long cooldowns.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Initiative
But so is the theifs mechanic. So should they have chill effect initiative again?
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Weapon_kit
Again a skill, that is yes effected by chill that I argue shouldn’t be, but a 1 second cooldown hurts a lot less becoming 1.66 then what our passive along with active swap from becomes.

Now lets look at those effects.
Traits that improve attunements:
Arcane Fury — Gain fury when you switch attunements.
Elemental Attunement — When attuning to an element, you and all nearby allies gain a boon.

So yes we have two traits that effect a single weapon choice. Most classes have at least one trait that effect weapon swap, as well as multiple weapon sets that can do different sigils. We are stuck to the choice of 1/2 sigils at a time that stay persistent through a whole fight.

So by all the arguments against us, your telling us Theifs who were in a similar situation shouldn’t have gotten the change to initiative, as well Engis should be nerfed with kits being on longer cooldowns then? Since I swear that is what I hear. We are asking for an update to balance an overlooked mechanic, we aren’t asking for the swap to ignore confusion or the random inturputs that happen to it at times. We are asking for us to be able to not have chill affect it. And I would aslo agree for the exact same thing to effect to engineer kits with or without a cooldown change. No weapon swap should be effected or all should, make your choice. Do you want your 10 second turning in to 16.6 without not taking in to account warrior trait or runes?

The only other way I see to change this is to change the way Chill works. Changing it to system like Immobolize is about the only other way to fix this issue. (This yes would make them have to re-work the steal from ele for theifs.)

This guy has to be trolling.

In the upcoming patch everybody will be trying out sigil of hydromancy.

Thieves steal and then chill eles, along with a venom and chill on the heal skill when running certain runes.

Rangers can easily perma chill.

Eles chill frequently.

Necros can perma chill.

This list is a list of classes that commonly use the condition. It’s a problem.

This guy doesn’t seem to be understanding the trade offs. He’s also a member of the camp who apparently thinks “more skills=more op” well sir every ele would tell you how wrong you are. Having double the weapon skills is taken at a huge price. Huge. I’ll not repeat it for you, as reading the thread would tell you why.

Please read everything before you comment on something you are very far from understanding (yes I’m talking about eles).

Slight correction, weapon swapping has 10s cooldown and attunement swapping 10-13s (down from 10-16s since 10th Dec).

calavel.6249:

Well, in my opinion reliable chill is limited to necros and eles. I’ve yet to hear you address this other than flat out disagreeing and offering no arguments either way apart from a wiki link. Yes, it’s a very impressive list of ranger pet skills, but unless you get assaulted by an arctic zoo, it’s not going to be a real problem.

And may I repeat myself once again and state that weapon swapping in general is a huge deal and that 4 weapon sets instead of 2 is an even larger one? Is this also to be completely ignored in this discussion or is it simply that anything that messes with Attunement is OP and must be removed/nerfed? Because if that is the argument here, I might as well stop now.

Actually, Elementalist was designed around operating with 20 weapon skills, whilst other classes like Warrior, Thief, Ranger, Necromancer, Guardian, Mesmer are designed around operating with 10. Engineer is a special case having the option to slot more or less depending on the build.

This post will be necessarily vague as it touches on design intent over mechanical concepts like cooldowns and cast times, but suffice it to say that having 20 weapon skills as Elementalist does not make one more powerful than having 10 weapon skills. Elementalist design is centred around finding cross-attunement combos of skills – each with utility that would seemingly be undertuned, but when comboed together result in powerful effects.

The fact of the matter is that Elementalist doesn’t have 4 weapon sets, because each individual set of skills is designed to be used in concert with one another. Staying in 1 set is actually considered to be suboptimal, in fact, whereas Warrior or Ranger for example, it is actually favourable to stay, or at least not punishing, as autoattacks for 10-skill classes are generally stronger as a result.

Having Chill affect Attunement swap is essentially like having Chill affect the weapon swaps of classes with 2 weapon sets on top of having Chill affect the Weapon skills themselves. Would Warrior ever go without Fast Hands if Chill affected weapon swap? Implications for other classes are similar. One can also make an argument for cross-set combos – yet these are unimpeded by Chill, whilst Elementalists are so impaired.

The fact remains that whilst 2 weapon set classes can opt to stay within that weapon set, Elementalists cannot; when their very design forces them to swap constantly just to remain competitive.

That Elementalists can potentially gain the most benefits out of their swaps is a factor, certainly. But to turn that around into the crux of an argument that revolves around Elementalists having more skills available avoids the issue that other classes are not similarly affected.

One could just as easily argue the other way and argue for Chill affecting the Weapon swaps for Thief, Warrior, Necromancer, Ranger, Mesmer and Guardian as well. After all, turnabout is fair play.

“Rangers can easily perma chill.”

No, they can’t, neither easily nor perma.

If atunements swapping isn’t weapon swapping then surely elementalists should have a second weapon set, as all the other classes do?

borya.2964:

“Rangers can easily perma chill.”

No, they can’t, neither easily nor perma.

They can build for it but they don’t use it because Spirit/Bunker is far more useful in pvp. As for WvW, everybody knows how underpowered they are.

Malthias thanks for going through all that for him. I couldn’t agree more. There was one other person arguing with me over the word “effective”. See Malthias’ post to further understand what I meant.

borya.2964:

“Rangers can easily perma chill.”

No, they can’t, neither easily nor perma.

I’m on a server with two of the best rangers who play the game. They can maintain perma chill. I’m mostly a WvWer and there are some nasty perma chill ranger builds out there. Spirits are less effective in WvW.

phaeris.7604:

If atunements swapping isn’t weapon swapping then surely elementalists should have a second weapon set, as all the other classes do?

Cheers. Then I could have some range, too.

calavel.6249:

Please stop pretending Attunement is “just weapon swap for eles”. No other class can weapon swap between 20 different skills. No other class besides warrior can trigger any sort of effect on weapon swap. It’s F1-F4 skills and those skills are affected by chill. Should Engineer toolbelt skills also be immune to chill? No. And only necro has easy, reliable access to chill.

Engineer offense/defense doesn’t RELY on their toolbelt. Kit-swapping cooldowns (their equivalent of Ele attunements) are are only 1 sec to which chill does nothing. Understand now?

Ele’s 20 skills are balanced around the fact that there ARE that many skills, therefore the skills themselves are either extremely weak/uselesss or have extremely long cooldowns. Try playing the class, maybe you’ll understand that Ele players would rather have 5-10 useful skills instead of 20+ junk ones with ridiculous cooldowns.

I hardly care if I’m hit by chill while playing on any other class, but on Ele it’s almost a death sentence.

Ganathar.4956:

calavel.6249:

Please stop pretending Attunement is “just weapon swap for eles”. No other class can weapon swap between 20 different skills. No other class besides warrior can trigger any sort of effect on weapon swap. It’s F1-F4 skills and those skills are affected by chill. Should Engineer toolbelt skills also be immune to chill? No. And only necro has easy, reliable access to chill.

No one is pretending anything. Eles already have higher cooldowns BECAUSE they have more skills so chill affecting their weapon swap is not needed.

Ele swap effects need to be traited for so an untraited ele would gain no swap effects from attunements.
Also, every class can trigger effects from swap because of swap sigils. And even if you consider sigils an exception why should a warrior get effects on swap without having it be affected by chill while the ele gets kittened?

The fact that only necro has reliable access to chill makes the situation even worse because if the elementalist ever gets balanced well against other classes it won’t be balanced well against necro because of chill. You know, chill will make ele more difficult for Anet to balance.

Actually no, 7/8 professions can do easy permachill builds, chill aint a problem as long as it affects weapon skills and utilities, but nothing else (btw with utilities i also mean heal and elite). For example a Warriors burs skills being chilled isnt a real problem, nor are shatters or toolbelts in most cases, kinda so so on steal but they are already immune to chill, rangers dont get hit by chill in terms of profession skills power, but pets in general are another can of wurms, necros well while it can hurt but is ususally cleansed as it should be, same for guardian.

TLDR: only to standouts to chill are ele who get their swaps affected and thief who are immune to like 5/6th of chills power.

Thanks for the additional replies and support. ANet please give a statement on this. It is extremely important to us.

calavel.6249:

Please stop pretending Attunement is “just weapon swap for eles”. No other class can weapon swap between 20 different skills. No other class besides warrior can trigger any sort of effect on weapon swap. It’s F1-F4 skills and those skills are affected by chill. Should Engineer toolbelt skills also be immune to chill? No. And only necro has easy, reliable access to chill.

‘No other class beside warrior can trigger any sort of effect on weapon swap’

You don’t play very many classes, do you?

Joseph.7213:

calavel.6249:

Please stop pretending Attunement is “just weapon swap for eles”. No other class can weapon swap between 20 different skills. No other class besides warrior can trigger any sort of effect on weapon swap. It’s F1-F4 skills and those skills are affected by chill. Should Engineer toolbelt skills also be immune to chill? No. And only necro has easy, reliable access to chill.

‘No other class beside warrior can trigger any sort of effect on weapon swap’

You don’t play very many classes, do you?

He mains Mesmer.

I agree with this, CHill shouldn’t affect F1-F4 attunements

Joseph.7213:

calavel.6249:

Please stop pretending Attunement is “just weapon swap for eles”. No other class can weapon swap between 20 different skills. No other class besides warrior can trigger any sort of effect on weapon swap. It’s F1-F4 skills and those skills are affected by chill. Should Engineer toolbelt skills also be immune to chill? No. And only necro has easy, reliable access to chill.

‘No other class beside warrior can trigger any sort of effect on weapon swap’

You don’t play very many classes, do you?

Yes, yes we went over that already. The point is that only warrior and ele can really exploit (not necessarily a bad word) weapon swapping because warriors can trait for 5s CD (4 with runes) and eles have more “weapon sets” available. Other classes, whether they can trait for swapping or not, are stuck at 10s, 9s with runes. This is the main difference, and the main point of my argument about weapon swapping being powerful and the fact that classifying Attunement as “just weapon swapping for eles” is false.
We can talk about warrior swap and why it is more “fair” or at least necessary if you want, but that really is a different discussion about a different class with different mechanics.

Honestly, I am not writing these things to put the ele class down or the people who main it. If anything, this discussion has inspired me to roll a new ele and learn it better this time. I liked the class pretty well, seemed complex but rewarding but since I like to WvW quite a lot of the time, I didn’t feel that playing the squishiest class in the game would be fun in the long run.

calavel.6249:

Joseph.7213:

calavel.6249:

Please stop pretending Attunement is “just weapon swap for eles”. No other class can weapon swap between 20 different skills. No other class besides warrior can trigger any sort of effect on weapon swap. It’s F1-F4 skills and those skills are affected by chill. Should Engineer toolbelt skills also be immune to chill? No. And only necro has easy, reliable access to chill.

‘No other class beside warrior can trigger any sort of effect on weapon swap’

You don’t play very many classes, do you?

Yes, yes we went over that already. The point is that only warrior and ele can really exploit (not necessarily a bad word) weapon swapping because warriors can trait for 5s CD (4 with runes) and eles have more “weapon sets” available. Other classes, whether they can trait for swapping or not, are stuck at 10s, 9s with runes. This is the main difference, and the main point of my argument about weapon swapping being powerful and the fact that classifying Attunement as “just weapon swapping for eles” is false.
We can talk about warrior swap and why it is more “fair” or at least necessary if you want, but that really is a different discussion about a different class with different mechanics.

Honestly, I am not writing these things to put the ele class down or the people who main it. If anything, this discussion has inspired me to roll a new ele and learn it better this time. I liked the class pretty well, seemed complex but rewarding but since I like to WvW quite a lot of the time, I didn’t feel that playing the squishiest class in the game would be fun in the long run.

I’m sorry, what? Do you have any idea what you’re talking about? Only Warriors can achieve the 5s Sigil Time. Ele is in the same exact boat as everyone else. So no, there is no “main difference”.

Attunement Swap IS Weapon Swap. It Procs Sigils. It changes your weapon bar. And most importantly, should not be affected by Chill.

Ryld.1340:

I’m sorry, what? Do you have any idea what you’re talking about? Only Warriors can achieve the 5s Sigil Time. Ele is in the same exact boat as everyone else. So no, there is no “main difference”.

Attunement Swap IS Weapon Swap. It Procs Sigils. It changes your weapon bar. And most importantly, should not be affected by Chill.

Sigils are a part of it, but it’s not my main beef with your attunement = weapon swap argument. Yes, ele has base 13s CD on THE PREVIOUS attunement when they swap. The 2 remaning attunements cooldown in less than 2 seconds, meaning eles can cycle through 20 different skills in a matter of less than 10 seconds, the time it takes most classes to recharge one swap.
Now does it make any sense to do this? No, of course not. Randomly cycling through a large skill pool and casting them at random accomplishes nothing. But the fact that eles can and should often cycle through attunements is the entire point of the class and is a very poweful tool compared to the fact that most other classes are – by design – limited to using 5 specific weapon skills most of the time and sometimes swapping into 5 other weapon skills to execute some spefific moves or perhaps try to switch range. The warrior is the main difference here, and I’d be happy to discuss why this is.

While eles obviously cannot always reliably access every one of their 20 available weapon skills, they almost always have the option of changing within seconds. No other class can do that, and while warriors can change faster (again, this only goes for your last attunement, not all of them), they are still limited to 10 skills like everyone else.

Warriors are not the only other class that has effects on weapon swaps, I know Rangers and I believes Thieves do also. And if you consider Engineers weapon kits as weapon swaps, we also have effects on weapon swaps. It’s not uncommon at all, but Elementalists are the only ones being punished here.

calavel.6249:

Ryld.1340:

I’m sorry, what? Do you have any idea what you’re talking about? Only Warriors can achieve the 5s Sigil Time. Ele is in the same exact boat as everyone else. So no, there is no “main difference”.

Attunement Swap IS Weapon Swap. It Procs Sigils. It changes your weapon bar. And most importantly, should not be affected by Chill.

Sigils are a part of it, but it’s not my main beef with your attunement = weapon swap argument. Yes, ele has base 13s CD on THE PREVIOUS attunement when they swap. The 2 remaning attunements cooldown in less than 2 seconds, meaning eles can cycle through 20 different skills in a matter of less than 10 seconds, the time it takes most classes to recharge one swap.
Now does it make any sense to do this? No, of course not. Randomly cycling through a large skill pool and casting them at random accomplishes nothing. But the fact that eles can and should often cycle through attunements is the entire point of the class and is a very poweful tool compared to the fact that most other classes are – by design – limited to using 5 specific weapon skills most of the time and sometimes swapping into 5 other weapon skills to execute some spefific moves or perhaps try to switch range. The warrior is the main difference here, and I’d be happy to discuss why this is.

While eles obviously cannot always reliably access every one of their 20 available weapon skills, they almost always have the option of changing within seconds. No other class can do that, and while warriors can change faster (again, this only goes for your last attunement, not all of them), they are still limited to 10 skills like everyone else.

While I’m glad you are inspired to play the class again, I encourage you to spend time with me in spvp and try to learn the class before you speak like this.

All I’m seeing from your sentences is that you don’t understand ele. I don’t understand what you’re saying about two seconds, but yes as it is, without chill, eles can get into a great groove with skill and practice. But add chill in, and it is a death sentence.

So, just to sum this up, please ask your questions you have about this in a numbered format and I will do my best to explain and hit all your points so you don’t feel like we’re yelling at you, and hit me up in game. I’ll try to show you exactly what we’re talking about, and I’d be happy to train you up as a new ele. Always happy to train up another.

I would like to say, as a long time Engie player, Engies can have just as many weapon skills as Eles, have them all be on 1s CDs, have them all proc multiple effects, and not really have to worry about chill. The argument that only the Warrior and Ele can make wide use of weapon swapping is flat out wrong. The downside for the Engineer is that they lose multiple weapon sets, and they have to use up utilities and their heal for kits, but that’s covered by the Tool Belt, which, like all skills should be, are affected by chill.

And the Engineer, on top of being able to slot up to 20 weapon skills, has extremely short CDs on those skills as well, with not many going over 25s, and many being sub-10s. So, it’s okay for an Engie to be able to have that many skills, with just about no penalty from chill, and with short CDs, while Eles have to suffer?

Mbelch.9028:

All I’m seeing from your sentences is that you don’t understand ele. I don’t understand what you’re saying about two seconds, but yes as it is, without chill, eles can get into a great groove with skill and practice. But add chill in, and it is a death sentence.

You have 4 attunements. When you swap away from an attunement, that attunement goes on a base 13s CD. You are now in a different attunement. Within the next 2 seconds, you will have two attunements ready to swap into, with a third (the original one) still being on cooldown. This is my point. This is why weapon swapping is NOT the same as attunement. The mehanics and benefits are similar, but they are not the same.

Oh, and you’re welcome to offer an actual counter-argument this time instead of being patronizing and claiming anyone that does not main ele is not entititled to an opinion on the class in the CLASS BALANCE forum.

calavel.6249:

Mbelch.9028:

All I’m seeing from your sentences is that you don’t understand ele. I don’t understand what you’re saying about two seconds, but yes as it is, without chill, eles can get into a great groove with skill and practice. But add chill in, and it is a death sentence.

You have 4 attunements. When you swap away from an attunement, that attunement goes on a base 13s CD. You are now in a different attunement. Within the next 2 seconds, you will have two attunements ready to swap into, with a third (the original one) still being on cooldown. This is my point. This is why weapon swapping is NOT the same as attunement. The mehanics and benefits are similar, but they are not the same.

Oh, and you’re welcome to offer an actual counter-argument this time instead of being patronizing and claiming anyone that does not main ele is not entititled to an opinion on the class in the CLASS BALANCE forum.

Ah now I understand what you’re saying.

Yes. At the start of a fight you have four sets of skills to work with. That’s true. But in order to attack and defend, you need one skill from several different attunements. And while it only takes a second to swap to water if you’ve just swapped to air, you won’t be able to get back to air for roughly 10 seconds. That’s a long time when you’re needing to pick and choose what skills to successfully fight with.

So. A set of Mesmer weapons have offensive and defensive skills. Right? Greatsword does, staff does, sword torch definitely does.

Ele doesn’t. Take d/d. Nothing in fire is defensive. Two skills in air are defensive. One skill in earth is defensive and 4 skills in water are defensive.

We’re locked out of most of our defensive skills once we leave water, and our best damaging skills are forfeited after we leave fire.

This isn’t to mention most of our skills that have real value are double the cooldown of a weapon skill on another class. And those skill cooldowns can be reduced on top of that.

You’re welcome to lose your already dull edge. Sorry to expect someone commenting on an ele suggestion have any skill or knowledge of the class.

By the way I wasn’t patronizing, but you are being unpleasant now.

Mbelch.9028:

Ah now I understand what you’re saying.

Yes. At the start of a fight you have four sets of skills to work with. That’s true. But in order to attack and defend, you need one skill from several different attunements. And while it only takes a second to swap to water if you’ve just swapped to air, you won’t be able to get back to air for roughly 10 seconds. That’s a long time when you’re needing to pick and choose what skills to successfully fight with.

These are all valid points, but this is in my opinion what is meant by “managing attunements and skills carefully”. When you switch attunement, you need to have a plan, and you need to consider the fact that the plan may not be executed perfectly. But I’m sure you know this.

So. A set of Mesmer weapons have offensive and defensive skills. Right? Greatsword does, staff does, sword torch definitely does.

Ele doesn’t. Take d/d. Nothing in fire is defensive. Two skills in air are defensive. One skill in earth is defensive and 4 skills in water are defensive.

We’re locked out of most of our defensive skills once we leave water, and our best damaging skills are forfeited after we leave fire.

This isn’t to mention most of our skills that have real value are double the cooldown of a weapon skill on another class. And those skill cooldowns can be reduced on top of that.

You talk about swapping into a 100% defensive weapon set and then (if your timing is right and the situation allows it) swapping over to a 100% offensive set like it’s a bad thing. I really don’t get that. Being able to switch between defense and offense at the right time, negating spike damage then countering etc. is integral to any class.

I’m sorry but I think it is absurd that you are complaining that D/D has no balance because it “only” has 7 defense skills. 7 defensive skills on any other class is an entire weapon set with 2 AA’s and one skill to spare. I know not everything is available all the time, but this comes back to the careful attunement management argument again.

If every element on every weapon offered perfect balance between offense and defense, an experienced ele would be impossible to fight because you would never be able to catch them off guard or pressure them. They would simply swap attunement and have a fresh set of skills for both offense and defense whenever they would get pressured. It would make a mockery of the whole idea of skill cooldowns and careful application of skills.

Anyway, the cooldowns on ele weapon skills really aren’t that bad. They’re not much worse than other scholar classes, and you have a larger skill pool to make up for it.
Utility cooldown is the only place eles are really punished.

And I’m sorry if you felt offended but I was tiring of re-hashing the same argument over and over and getting met with no response apart from l2p. That’s not an argument.

calavel.6249:

Mbelch.9028:

Ah now I understand what you’re saying.

Yes. At the start of a fight you have four sets of skills to work with. That’s true. But in order to attack and defend, you need one skill from several different attunements. And while it only takes a second to swap to water if you’ve just swapped to air, you won’t be able to get back to air for roughly 10 seconds. That’s a long time when you’re needing to pick and choose what skills to successfully fight with.

These are all valid points, but this is in my opinion what is meant by “managing attunements and skills carefully”. When you switch attunement, you need to have a plan, and you need to consider the fact that the plan may not be executed perfectly. But I’m sure you know this.

So. A set of Mesmer weapons have offensive and defensive skills. Right? Greatsword does, staff does, sword torch definitely does.

Ele doesn’t. Take d/d. Nothing in fire is defensive. Two skills in air are defensive. One skill in earth is defensive and 4 skills in water are defensive.

We’re locked out of most of our defensive skills once we leave water, and our best damaging skills are forfeited after we leave fire.

This isn’t to mention most of our skills that have real value are double the cooldown of a weapon skill on another class. And those skill cooldowns can be reduced on top of that.

You talk about swapping into a 100% defensive weapon set and then (if your timing is right and the situation allows it) swapping over to a 100% offensive set like it’s a bad thing. I really don’t get that. Being able to switch between defense and offense at the right time, negating spike damage then countering etc. is integral to any class.

Thank you for presenting an argument as to why chill shouldn’t affect attunements. Why should attunements be affected by chill when attunement swapping is integral to eles like weapon swapping is to other classes?

Don’t say extra skills because we have already been over this, ele skills are generally inferior, with longer cooldowns and have to be comboed. Sadly this doesn’t only apply to weapon skills but it applies to utilities as well.

EDIT: In your previous post you said that eles have the benefit of being able to switch more often because they have more attunements than swaps. You are correct in this regard but this is not a bad thing because eles should get some sort of a benefit from their class mechanic like all other classes and this benefit isn’t major anyway because the skills that you switch to are inferior to what other classes would switch to.

Finally the other benefit of attunements is the 20 skills, which is null and void because of it’s counterbalance of having them be inferior.

Ganathar.4956:

Finally the other benefit of attunements is the 20 skills, which is null and void because of it’s counterbalance of having them be inferior.

Tis not like you have a massive amount of self finishers or that each element has a skill thats on a total of 1.4+ power ratio.

Andele.1306:

Ganathar.4956:

Finally the other benefit of attunements is the 20 skills, which is null and void because of it’s counterbalance of having them be inferior.

Tis not like you have a massive amount of self finishers or that each element has a skill thats on a total of 1.4+ power ratio.

Class is reliant on self finishing unlike other classes. This also means that other classes get stronger when they are with friends who have fields while eles stay the same.
Also having a skill with 1.4+ power ratio is nothing special, there are many skills in the game with a way bigger coefficient, just check the wiki.

Finally damage is not the only thing the matters, cooldowns, defense and utility are all extremely important. Keep in mind that you are talking about the squishiest class which also happens to have less useful defensive utilities than the class with the most health and armor.

Ganathar.4956:

Don’t say extra skills because we have already been over this, ele skills are generally inferior, with longer cooldowns and have to be comboed. Sadly this doesn’t only apply to weapon skills but it applies to utilities as well.

No, we have not been over this. You say ele skills have unusually long cooldowns, I say this isn’t true (apart from utilities). I’ll be more specific: Lots of ele weapon skills have short to average cooldowns compared to similar classes. The worst offenders are off-hand skills in general but there is nothing unusual about this. Mesmer and necro have long CD weapon skills as well (especially offhand), compare the skill lists. This is a feature of scholar classes, they are less spammy but each skill has greater potential when used right.