Guild Wars 2

Change every evade skill in game to not count as evade anymore but block
Normal Dodges would still count as evade, just not evade skills on weapons.
Possibly change the “Evade/Block” message to something else but let the functionality of the skill be counted as block.

This would still give plenty of survivability but more counter play if players chose so.

Unblockable traits would suddenly become more useful again.
Traits like the warrior one that give might when an enemy blocks would be more useful.
Would make it possible for classes like mesmer with fairly slow cast time but that have some unblockable ability to at least hit “evade spamming” thieves for example.

I don’t really see a downside to this besides adding more option for counterplay to a currently really annoying mechanic.

Sure you might say it doesn’t make any sense for skills like flanking strike from a roleplaying perspective but, think of it like you are blocking with your off hand while moving behind the target or pistolwhip the flurry of blows blocks the enemy attacks rather than evading.

This mechanic is already in game for the training NPCs in the mist which evades already count as block, might be true for some pve encounters but i don’t know about them too much tbh.

Would maybe require some rebalance for sigils like guardian runes though.

Vuh.1328:

Change every evade skill in game to not count as evade anymore but block
Normal Dodges would still count as evade, just not evade skills on weapons.
Possibly change the “Evade/Block” message to something else but let the functionality of the skill be counted as block.

This would still give plenty of survivability but more counter play if players chose so.

Unblockable traits would suddenly become more useful again.
Traits like the warrior one that give might when an enemy blocks would be more useful.
Would make it possible for classes like mesmer with fairly slow cast time but that have some unblockable ability to at least hit “evade spamming” thieves for example.

I don’t really see a downside to this besides adding more option for counterplay to a currently really annoying mechanic.

Sure you might say it doesn’t make any sense for skills like flanking strike from a roleplaying perspective but, think of it like you are blocking with your off hand while moving behind the target or pistolwhip the flurry of blows blocks the enemy attacks rather than evading.

This mechanic is already in game for the training NPCs in the mist which evades already count as block, might be true for some pve encounters but i don’t know about them too much tbh.

Would maybe require some rebalance for sigils like guardian runes though.

I agree for this only for effects that do not directly hinder the opponent, like the ele d/d earth leap and the d/p thief shadowstep.
For things like necro marks, I don’t think having them be able to be unblockable is a good thing in the first place, but that is for another thread. It isn’t really good to remove any amount of counterplay from something that is already lacking in that respect to begin with.

P Fun Daddy.1208:

I agree for this only for effects that do not directly hinder the opponent, like the ele d/d earth leap and the d/p thief shadowstep.
For things like necro marks, I don’t think having them be able to be unblockable is a good thing in the first place, but that is for another thread. It isn’t really good to remove any amount of counterplay from something that is already lacking in that respect to begin with.

I might be dumb but how is it removing counter play, it adds counter play?

I think it’s completely fine if a d/d ele can immob someone while doing say flanking strike for example.

Also how does this affect shadowstep and d/p in general or did you mean shadowshot?

Evade skills currently have no counter play to them as it is, blocks are very strong but atleast they have counter play to it.

Dodge would still remain as evade.

Vuh.1328:

P Fun Daddy.1208:

I agree for this only for effects that do not directly hinder the opponent, like the ele d/d earth leap and the d/p thief shadowstep.
For things like necro marks, I don’t think having them be able to be unblockable is a good thing in the first place, but that is for another thread. It isn’t really good to remove any amount of counterplay from something that is already lacking in that respect to begin with.

I might be dumb but how is it removing counter play, it adds counter play?

I think it’s completely fine if a d/d ele can immob someone while doing say flanking strike for example.

Also how does this affect shadowstep and d/p in general or did you mean shadowshot?

Evade skills currently have no counter play to them as it is, blocks are very strong but atleast they have counter play to it.

Dodge would still remain as evade.

Unblockable isn’t counterplay. Unblockable removes counterplay. By making defensive mechanics not work, it completely removes the entire element of strategy that is correctly timing blocks/evades. I disagree with the current implementation of a number unblockable attacks because of this, and because it’s not adding a counter to a dodge/evade, it’s just ignoring it. There is a vital difference here. Think of it as the relationship between diamond skin/that engi trait and condition cleanses. They both introduce an element of counterplay, but while diamond skin completely ignores the actions of the opponent (in that it either works or it doesn’t depending on whether the opponent happens to be a dire necro), condition cleanses add counterplay and various strategies for both the player and the opponent.
In the same way, some unblockable attacks are like giving players access to agony.

There are a few unblockable attacks that do not fall in this category. These are the ones that punish a player for taking a certain action, or are necessary for the rest of the set to function. Static field is an example of this, because if you run through it it’s pretty much your fault and there was some opportunity to not take the stun, simply by not walking through. In the same way, the various traps have the same sort of justification. Magnetic grasp needs to hit to mark an enemy, or else the leap doesn’t work, and the same goes for shadow shot.
Marks (traited) are an example of the type that does not really work, because you can just cast them directly on an enemy, offensively, with pretty much no counterplay involved. This is what I mean by certain skills completely removing counterplay, in that well-timed blocks are _not_rewarded.
Besides, evades are fundamentally different from blocks. Most blocks do not limit your movement, while the vast majority of evades control your movement for their duration.

True counterplay isn’t “block” which is essentially invulnerability and very limited “unblockable” skills. That’s build wars. That’s “if you didn’t bring this one skill, you are at a major, major disadvantage.”

Instead, true counterplay is something like “block only works on attacks from the front” or “block only blocks X number of attacks.”

Of course it would be a major defensive rehaul for many classes and will never happen.

Aegael.6938:

True counterplay isn’t “block” which is essentially invulnerability and very limited “unblockable” skills. That’s build wars. That’s “if you didn’t bring this one skill, you are at a major, major disadvantage.”

Instead, true counterplay is something like “block only works on attacks from the front” or “block only blocks X number of attacks.”

Of course it would be a major defensive rehaul for many classes and will never happen.

Some weapon abilities, for example, a scepter ele’s phoenix is unblockable and an extremely powerful skill. A sword thief would think twice about using his new “block”(not evade) ability in front of my face rather than just being competely invincible.

Along with this block change they could give every single weapon-set a base unblockable ability, and all of them could have some fairly long cooldowns so you actually have to use them wisely rather than the “blocking” thief randomly getting crushed by all the unblockable ability spam.

P Fun Daddy.1208:

Vuh.1328:

P Fun Daddy.1208:

I agree for this only for effects that do not directly hinder the opponent, like the ele d/d earth leap and the d/p thief shadowstep.
For things like necro marks, I don’t think having them be able to be unblockable is a good thing in the first place, but that is for another thread. It isn’t really good to remove any amount of counterplay from something that is already lacking in that respect to begin with.

I might be dumb but how is it removing counter play, it adds counter play?

I think it’s completely fine if a d/d ele can immob someone while doing say flanking strike for example.

Also how does this affect shadowstep and d/p in general or did you mean shadowshot?

Evade skills currently have no counter play to them as it is, blocks are very strong but atleast they have counter play to it.

Dodge would still remain as evade.

Unblockable isn’t counterplay. Unblockable removes counterplay. By making defensive mechanics not work, it completely removes the entire element of strategy that is correctly timing blocks/evades. I disagree with the current implementation of a number unblockable attacks because of this, and because it’s not adding a counter to a dodge/evade, it’s just ignoring it. There is a vital difference here. Think of it as the relationship between diamond skin/that engi trait and condition cleanses. They both introduce an element of counterplay, but while diamond skin completely ignores the actions of the opponent (in that it either works or it doesn’t depending on whether the opponent happens to be a dire necro), condition cleanses add counterplay and various strategies for both the player and the opponent.
In the same way, some unblockable attacks are like giving players access to agony.

There are a few unblockable attacks that do not fall in this category. These are the ones that punish a player for taking a certain action, or are necessary for the rest of the set to function. Static field is an example of this, because if you run through it it’s pretty much your fault and there was some opportunity to not take the stun, simply by not walking through. In the same way, the various traps have the same sort of justification. Magnetic grasp needs to hit to mark an enemy, or else the leap doesn’t work, and the same goes for shadow shot.
Marks (traited) are an example of the type that does not really work, because you can just cast them directly on an enemy, offensively, with pretty much no counterplay involved. This is what I mean by certain skills completely removing counterplay, in that well-timed blocks are _not_rewarded.
Besides, evades are fundamentally different from blocks. Most blocks do not limit your movement, while the vast majority of evades control your movement for their duration.

Ok thanks, i see what you mean, just slightly different ways of thinking and i guess english not being my main thinking language :p.

While true that unblockable marks/traps could be an issue i don’t see it as big of an issue since it’s limited to one weapon/utility set and while block skill normally don’t limits your movements they also do not provide offense at the same time as defense. Sure there are block skills which does something offensively if blocked but they are usually limited to one attack and removed afterwards, don’t thief has such an ability on a underwater weapon? should be on one of their land weapons instead.

Also if necros would go for unblockable marks they would lose either some serious life force generation or condition duration which in turn would make them an easier/less deadly target, as long as arenanet is keeping the bleed nerfs in+dhumbfire/condi duration in spite. And hey they still got normal dodges like everyone else :P

There might be a better way to deal with it, like making flanking strike a block ability and on second press it does larcenous strike and when hit it does Something instead. But i still think having them function as a block rather than evade would be the better option since i doubt that arenanet wants to completely redesign both ranger and thieves weapon sets and trying to come up with new abilities and it would be the easier option probably.

But yeah good thought actually.

Phantaram.1265:

Aegael.6938:

True counterplay isn’t “block” which is essentially invulnerability and very limited “unblockable” skills. That’s build wars. That’s “if you didn’t bring this one skill, you are at a major, major disadvantage.”

Instead, true counterplay is something like “block only works on attacks from the front” or “block only blocks X number of attacks.”

Of course it would be a major defensive rehaul for many classes and will never happen.

Some weapon abilities, for example, a scepter ele’s phoenix is unblockable and an extremely powerful skill. A sword thief would think twice about using his new “block”(not evade) ability in front of my face rather than just being competely invincible.

Along with this block change they could give every single weapon-set a base unblockable ability, and all of them could have some fairly long cooldowns so you actually have to use them wisely rather than the “blocking” thief randomly getting crushed by all the unblockable ability spam.

Fair enough. Really good idea.