Guild Wars 2

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Haha. Irony is sooooo funny. Don’t bother you guys. Arguing with a whiny guardian is like having a boxing match against a jelly.

Black Box.9312:

Rym.1469:

I’m all after giving more variety to guardians, but with a cost of superior support ability. Currently, even if group or zerg would need some support, healing or tank with tons of utility like reflections, why would they something else than a guardia
?Bt Guardians surely needs some love when it comes to variety

I think that having the option to sacrifice some of that support viability to have more build freedom is exactly what the class needs.

exactly!
We guardians aren’t asking for buffs, we are asking for more options.

Hunter.4783:

Black Box.9312:

Rym.1469:

I’m all after giving more variety to guardians, but with a cost of superior support ability. Currently, even if group or zerg would need some support, healing or tank with tons of utility like reflections, why would they something else than a guardia
?Bt Guardians surely needs some love when it comes to variety

I think that having the option to sacrifice some of that support viability to have more build freedom is exactly what the class needs.

exactly!
We guardians aren’t asking for buffs, we are asking for more options.

Right.. “Yeah conditions and spirit weapons are so worthless blabla mye mye. We need more options!”

This thread is so funny.

xFireize, go back to Call of Duty or whatever bridge you crossed!
On a serious note, what is your problem seriously? Even your signature says plenty about “Guardians”.

Zeal and, to a minor extent, Radiance, are in a quite poor state.
They offer really nothing but passive buffs (which work for PvE, where stacking damage multiplier plays a huge role on buildcrafting, and for little more than some all-in burst build for PvP) and minor improvements to currently lackluster utilities.

Since I dislike AI to be a viable option, I have no problem with Spirit Weapons being next to useless (besides SoA for some PvE encounter). They still take up room for build diversity though, so both traits and utilities themselves should be eventually reworked
Signets are in a better state, but related traits are just awful. Perfect Inscriptions is lackluster and 100% passive, while Inscribed removal doesn’t really work as a meaningful condition management and is also quite passive since more than half of the sigils are extremely timing dependant tools (2 CCs and a resurrection). Signet Mastery is probably the best of all, and it’s nothing but the usual CD reduction adept.
A really decent signet related trait (cast time reduction, quickness on signet use, …) could be enough for a bit more of build diversity to appear.
On top of this, Zeal minors being about Symbols feels kinda weird when most symbol traits are in Honor and the weapons improved by Zeal (Focus, Scepter and Greatsword, which saw its symbol CD extremely increased for realiation balance long time ago) are among the less symbol reliant ones.

The biggest problem is, however, about devs pushing for condition guardian to become something.
There are too many burn realted trait scattered around different traitlines, like trying to encourage several different flavoured condition/hybrid builds, when there has never been a competitive one.
The worst part is that most of Guardian condtion applications are instant/passive (on Nth hit, on block, …) and any additional condtion source through Runes and Sigils would pretty much behave this way too.
A viable condition guardian should be achieved through an eventual weapon rework/release, with the most dangerous moves being actively avoidable. The passive trait approach just can’t deliver a decent build (if condition Guardian ever becomes viable this way, it will be also a quite toxic spec) and devs should probably focus on improving the Guardian as a power based class for now.

Health pool realted complaints have already been adressed (even if in a wrong tratiline IMHO :P).
Movement Speed / Soft CC are the other frequently requested improvements and could probably be provided without major issues. Chosing the right intensity and traitline/tier to allocate them is where balance kicks in.

Not every guardian likes support roles…

Hunter.4783:

SO now dear sir, tell me how the guardians can enjoy more variety when half of our skills and traits are worthless? You can try spirit weapons for 5 min before you realize how subpar they are to everything else.

You shouldn’t waste your time asking questions when the only thing you want is others to agree with you so that what you believe will be self justified.

I do not for a minute think that guardian lacks variety, I however do think the vast majority of guardian players do lack variety. Currently the vast majority of the guardian community is hung up with max dps in pve and bunkering in pvp. Heaven forbid the poor soul who comes along who presents something different to these players, they will be shot down and ridiculed.

The new traits do not appeal to these “pve” players because they do not focus on dps. They do not appeal to pvp players because they like their pve counterparts are chained to the idea that guardian only bunkers.

My perspective is that even when Anet does make positive changes that further enhances variety that these players won’t know it if they seen it. Since if it doesn’t fit within their limited spectrum how guardian should play then its quickly rejected.

The only advice to you that I can give is if you are looking for variety then you have to start with yourself and not the class.

Littlefeather.8623:

Not every guardian likes support roles…

Roles. Sure.
But “support-y” feeling? Come on, if you didn’t roll Guardian to feel exactly that way whatever you’re doing, why did you roll it then? Even their class mechanic is quite a bit about group support.

Carighan.6758:

Littlefeather.8623:

Not every guardian likes support roles…

Roles. Sure.
But “support-y” feeling? Come on, if you didn’t roll Guardian to feel exactly that way whatever you’re doing, why did you roll it then? Even their class mechanic is quite a bit about group support.

When this game came out, I was under the impression that I can build my character any way I want. I chose guardian, as before GW2 I have played Tank/Knight classes in 6 different MMO’s for over 12 years. I never ever felt any inclination to be a support at all. And according to GW2 pre beta, I should not have to.

If I want to kill peopl, I get on my thief, If I want to PvE I get on my zerk warrior, If I want to kill in WvW I get on my Necro If the rare occasion I want to support in WvW I get on my guardian. It’s (Okay) I guess, but Its not the mindset I came to GW2 with.

The guardian barely recieves anything because it already works.

If it aint broken, don’t fix it.

No one said “broke”, its just getting real old watching every one else get shiny new toys that compliment them (over multiple patches), and guardians get burn build option..seems legit. lol

Tell that to the other profession who have been in and out of balance for nearly two years, while the Guardian has been reasonably balanced the entire time. I am sure everyone who has played those profession, have hearts that bleed for you.

This isn’t a balance issue. It needs to be in the Guardian forums.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

The guardian barely recieves anything because it already works.

If it aint broken, don’t fix it.

There are two, maybe three builds that don’t involve the use of broken traits or utilities.

Which traits and utilities are broken? What is broke a out them?

Roe.3679:

If they change guardians, you will end up regretting it. If guards end up OP they will end up slowly nerfed to being far worse than they’ve been, and they’ve been nicely balanced since launch.

Guardians have been nerfed every patch outside of the Staff Change (which is argueable the only change ever made ot the class w/ any sort of balance / QoL for the Guardian)…. albeit small nerf’s, but nerf’s none the less.

- Retal (nerfed multiple times w/ NO compensation)
- Might on Crit – nerf’d w/ ICD
- Vigor – Nerf’d 1st w/ increased ICD
- Vigor – Nerf’d again w/ amount

On top of that, the little bits we had from Sigils and Rune’s continue to get nerf’d, reducing Build Diversity….

The Guardian has been nerf’d in every “Balance” or “Feature” patch w/ no compensation.

Consecrations and Meditations got buffed. Spirit Weapons actually got buffed too since they lost their vulnerability, although they were pretty much extra HP which didn’t solve the dying problem.

xFireize.6318:

Consecrations and Meditations got buffed. Spirit Weapons actually got buffed too since they lost their vulnerability, although they were pretty much extra HP which didn’t solve the dying problem.

A list of buffs off hand:

1. Unscathed Contender went from 10% to 20%.
2. Conscreatios were buffed: Hallowed Ground gained 20% boon duration, Purging Flames gained 33% condition reduction and a lower cd.
3. Supreme Justice was buffed to 3 attacks to proc burning instead of 4.
5. Meditations were made instant
6. Merciful Intervention had its CD reduced
7. Focused Mind was buffed to give Fury
8. Zealous Blade was made to scale with healing power
9. Powerful Blades was buffed to 10% up from 5%
10. Scepter Power was buffed to 10% up from 5% (I think this was buffed, I could be wrong).
11. Spirit weapons got a trait that increased their damage by 50%
12. Healing Breeze got buffed several times: The first being a area cone increase, the second had its based healing increased for allies and the third happened with the feature patch.
13. Mace of Justice was buffed to give 250 healing power, this gives just as many stats as a entire trait line.
14. Scepter- Orb of Wrath had its velocity increased
15. Pure of Heart: Increased scaling with healing power from 25% to 40%
16. Retributive Armor: Increased the conversion rate from 5% to 7%
17. Searing Flames: Reduced the cooldown from 20 seconds to 10 seconds
18. Shattered Aegis: This trait now applies damage instead of burning
19. Shielded Mind: I’m pretty sure this one got buffed so that it also affects allies.

Out of this list, the majority of guardian players might use one or two. Because the rest of the buffs do not fit into their mentality of how guardian should be played. That is to say that if it does make a dungeon run take 20secs less or in pvp if the changes do not enable the player to kill targets in secs then its not useful.

First time I heard of someone saying guardian was underpowered. You guys just complain to complain now dont you?

Black Box.9312:

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

The guardian barely recieves anything because it already works.

If it aint broken, don’t fix it.

There are two, maybe three builds that don’t involve the use of broken traits or utilities.

Nope

Aza.2105:

xFireize.6318:

Consecrations and Meditations got buffed. Spirit Weapons actually got buffed too since they lost their vulnerability, although they were pretty much extra HP which didn’t solve the dying problem.

A list of buffs off hand:

1. Unscathed Contender went from 10% to 20%.
2. Conscreatios were buffed: Hallowed Ground gained 20% boon duration, Purging Flames gained 33% condition reduction and a lower cd.
3. Supreme Justice was buffed to 3 attacks to proc burning instead of 4.
5. Meditations were made instant
6. Merciful Intervention had its CD reduced
7. Focused Mind was buffed to give Fury
8. Zealous Blade was made to scale with healing power
9. Powerful Blades was buffed to 10% up from 5%
10. Scepter Power was buffed to 10% up from 5% (I think this was buffed, I could be wrong).
11. Spirit weapons got a trait that increased their damage by 50%
12. Healing Breeze got buffed several times: The first being a area cone increase, the second had its based healing increased for allies and the third happened with the feature patch.
13. Mace of Justice was buffed to give 250 healing power, this gives just as many stats as a entire trait line.
14. Scepter- Orb of Wrath had its velocity increased
15. Pure of Heart: Increased scaling with healing power from 25% to 40%
16. Retributive Armor: Increased the conversion rate from 5% to 7%
17. Searing Flames: Reduced the cooldown from 20 seconds to 10 seconds
18. Shattered Aegis: This trait now applies damage instead of burning
19. Shielded Mind: I’m pretty sure this one got buffed so that it also affects allies.

Out of this list, the majority of guardian players might use one or two. Because the rest of the buffs do not fit into their mentality of how guardian should be played. That is to say that if it does make a dungeon run take 20secs less or in pvp if the changes do not enable the player to kill targets in secs then its not useful.

O hey thx for pulling out the list.

anyway..

Non sense! We’ve been nerfed every patch! What are those? I don’t remember those changes!

Littlefeather.8623:

When this game came out, I was under the impression that I can build my character any way I want. I chose guardian, as before GW2 I have played Tank/Knight classes in 6 different MMO’s for over 12 years. I never ever felt any inclination to be a support at all. And according to GW2 pre beta, I should not have to.

You can build your Guardian any way you want.
Of those, a non-trivial amount of builds are going to be viable™ for whatever you’re trying to do, though in different ways.

But, as I said, all of your incarnations will have some focus on group support, incidental or pivotal. This is because as a Guardian, your flavour is that you support others.

Much like as an Elementalist, you don’t truly stick to a single stance. Sure you may – or may not – favour one depending on build, but you still swap a ton or you’re selling yourself way way short. Or as a Mesmer, you’ll have illusions out and sometimes shatter them. Sure some builds try to avoid it whenever possible, but they still do that, and quite frequently so.

That’s a big difference from being focused on supporting others.

Aza.2105:

xFireize.6318:

Consecrations and Meditations got buffed. Spirit Weapons actually got buffed too since they lost their vulnerability, although they were pretty much extra HP which didn’t solve the dying problem.

A list of buffs off hand:

1. Unscathed Contender went from 10% to 20%.
2. Conscreatios were buffed: Hallowed Ground gained 20% boon duration, Purging Flames gained 33% condition reduction and a lower cd.
3. Supreme Justice was buffed to 3 attacks to proc burning instead of 4.
5. Meditations were made instant
6. Merciful Intervention had its CD reduced
7. Focused Mind was buffed to give Fury
8. Zealous Blade was made to scale with healing power
9. Powerful Blades was buffed to 10% up from 5%
10. Scepter Power was buffed to 10% up from 5% (I think this was buffed, I could be wrong).
11. Spirit weapons got a trait that increased their damage by 50%
12. Healing Breeze got buffed several times: The first being a area cone increase, the second had its based healing increased for allies and the third happened with the feature patch.
13. Mace of Justice was buffed to give 250 healing power, this gives just as many stats as a entire trait line.
14. Scepter- Orb of Wrath had its velocity increased
15. Pure of Heart: Increased scaling with healing power from 25% to 40%
16. Retributive Armor: Increased the conversion rate from 5% to 7%
17. Searing Flames: Reduced the cooldown from 20 seconds to 10 seconds
18. Shattered Aegis: This trait now applies damage instead of burning
19. Shielded Mind: I’m pretty sure this one got buffed so that it also affects allies.

Out of this list, the majority of guardian players might use one or two. Because the rest of the buffs do not fit into their mentality of how guardian should be played. That is to say that if it does make a dungeon run take 20secs less or in pvp if the changes do not enable the player to kill targets in secs then its not useful.

Well let’s see here:

1.) Great for PvE
2.) Pretty interesting, purging flames is more popular these days.
3.) Still useless, as with anything involving burn builds

5+7.) A critical change for meditation dps guardians, since instead of taking a trait just to make them instant, we can give it fury.
6. Not really sure
8.) Still a marginal trait but I can see some use for it
9.) Very powerful trait for pve and roaming
10.) Good buff, but this trait is in zeal which is just hard to take as its damage and nothing else
11.) Spirit weapons being destroyed makes them hard to use.
12.) I still haven’t been convinced to use it
13.) Good buff, but trait is very hard to take given what it competes with.
14.) Scepter is more usable
15.) Ok
16.) Great for AH guardians
17.) Trait remained useless until it was recently changed to not go on cooldown when it didn’t remove a boon. It’s finally something now
18.) no comment
19.) The old version must have been terrible

Overall, that seemed to be a lot of good changes, though yes these changes don’t hit a lot of people who want all dps or all bunker.

yea so I try to make alternative builds with all the classes and I must say that it was hardest to pull off with the guardian. I was still able to make a decent condition build pre-patch. Its not so much concentrated on the burning damage but around the boon-ripping trait when you apply burning. Aka you can rip a boon on every third hit, whenever you block and ya can grant all your allies stability, healing, remove conditions or change conditions into boons.

So Guardians can go for boon-ripping.
Guardians can give boons though with the high CD on shouts its not as effective any more.
Guardians can give group support with the consecration skills
Guardians can heal and do dmg with zerker meditation skills.
Guardians have good access to CC, blind, aegis, retaliation etc.

ya have heavy armor and similar hp to the elementalist… Why not compare you with people that go for elementalist. Heavily telegraphed, lowest hp and armor, no aegis, no boon ripping bad at conditions only second to guardian…. But its true we got more toys/perks.

But you’re not stuck to playing guardian too ya know. There’s 7 other professions to experiment with. I’m currently trying out the necromancer alternative minion build. Its got dps, tankiness and cc.

Swimsasa Stoon.8936

Aka you can rip a boon on every third hit

The trait has a 10s ICD.

Wow, to read this thread. Anet might as well delete the guardian. You guys can complain about winning the lottery can’t you?

Carighan.6758:

Littlefeather.8623:

When this game came out, I was under the impression that I can build my character any way I want. I chose guardian, as before GW2 I have played Tank/Knight classes in 6 different MMO’s for over 12 years. I never ever felt any inclination to be a support at all. And according to GW2 pre beta, I should not have to.

You can build your Guardian any way you want.
Of those, a non-trivial amount of builds are going to be viable™ for whatever you’re trying to do, though in different ways.

But, as I said, all of your incarnations will have some focus on group support, incidental or pivotal. This is because as a Guardian, your flavour is that you support others.

Much like as an Elementalist, you don’t truly stick to a single stance. Sure you may – or may not – favour one depending on build, but you still swap a ton or you’re selling yourself way way short. Or as a Mesmer, you’ll have illusions out and sometimes shatter them. Sure some builds try to avoid it whenever possible, but they still do that, and quite frequently so.

That’s a big difference from being focused on supporting others.

Actually I main mesmer and I don’t shatter at all. I still kill things just fine too.

ArchonWing.9480:

Well let’s see here:

1.) Great for PvE
2.) Pretty interesting, purging flames is more popular these days.
3.) Still useless, as with anything involving burn builds

5+7.) A critical change for meditation dps guardians, since instead of taking a trait just to make them instant, we can give it fury.
6. Not really sure
8.) Still a marginal trait but I can see some use for it
9.) Very powerful trait for pve and roaming
10.) Good buff, but this trait is in zeal which is just hard to take as its damage and nothing else
11.) Spirit weapons being destroyed makes them hard to use.
12.) I still haven’t been convinced to use it
13.) Good buff, but trait is very hard to take given what it competes with.
14.) Scepter is more usable
15.) Ok
16.) Great for AH guardians
17.) Trait remained useless until it was recently changed to not go on cooldown when it didn’t remove a boon. It’s finally something now
18.) no comment
19.) The old version must have been terrible

Overall, that seemed to be a lot of good changes, though yes these changes don’t hit a lot of people who want all dps or all bunker.

Yes so its like I’ve written in the previous two posts. If changes do not fit what they believe guardian is or should be then its rejected and deemed as useless. The guardian community are some of the most rigid players I’ve ever seen. They will constantly complain about no changes to the class, when the opposite is true. There are plenty of changes its just with their fossilized thinking they do not make any use of them.

Aza.2105:

Yes so its like I’ve written in the previous two posts. If changes do not fit what they believe guardian is or should be then its rejected and deemed as useless. The guardian community are some of the most rigid players I’ve ever seen. They will constantly complain about no changes to the class, when the opposite is true. There are plenty of changes its just with their fossilized thinking they do not make any use of them.

It’s not a buff if it can’t be put into a viable build.

Mediations were a slight buff – not great but absolutely needed in order to make the Med Build work in the current meta. Tha’ts not a buff, that’s a balance change.

Consecrations were a buff – however, you’re only using them in Zerg vs Zerg (buff to 1 playstyle and again, buff’d to compensate for the Condi Meta we’re in… not a buff to gameplay… it was a reactional buff)

Everything else was basically useless because the lack in Synergy between trait lines and the current mentality of everyone NOT guardian expecting them to play a certain way because they don’t want to reduce their damage.

Go figure, eh (Aza)?

Amins.3710:

Aza.2105:

Yes so its like I’ve written in the previous two posts. If changes do not fit what they believe guardian is or should be then its rejected and deemed as useless. The guardian community are some of the most rigid players I’ve ever seen. They will constantly complain about no changes to the class, when the opposite is true. There are plenty of changes its just with their fossilized thinking they do not make any use of them.

It’s not a buff if it can’t be put into a viable build.

Mediations were a slight buff – not great but absolutely needed in order to make the Med Build work in the current meta. Tha’ts not a buff, that’s a balance change.

Consecrations were a buff – however, you’re only using them in Zerg vs Zerg (buff to 1 playstyle and again, buff’d to compensate for the Condi Meta we’re in… not a buff to gameplay… it was a reactional buff)

Everything else was basically useless because the lack in Synergy between trait lines and the current mentality of everyone NOT guardian expecting them to play a certain way because they don’t want to reduce their damage.

Go figure, eh (Aza)?

How would you define viable?

As I posted above, only the zeal and burning changes (they’re related!) as well as to a lesser degree spirit weapon traits have trouble because zeal is not a good tree and supports subpar things.

Purging flames is also the defacto condi removal in pve.

I find it very hard to believe that something like the sword buff falls under the not viable category. It’s not like people don’t take that, lol.

Hunter.4783:

The problem is not whether guardians are effective, its about how fun they are to play, and seeing how every class but us got new toys while our already broken toys weren’t even looked it, was a real bummer.
…
Every patch, classes get changes and improvements and bug fixes, guardians get nerfs while our spirit weapons have remained worthless for well over 1 year now.

Is… is that a joke? It is funny enough to be one, for sure.
New toys: how many of the new traits are considered “not trash” by the playerbase? Not a guardian specificity.
Broken toys not looked at, bug fixes for other: give a try to mesmer’s iElasticity (2 years old bug), and their infamous iWarden (more broken every patch, a real record). Or to the ranger’s pet AI. And I’m sure the elems would like the guardian’s history of nerf (RTL, we loved you).
Worthless specs for more than one year: how about the siphon necro? The almighty summoned weapons elem? And this off-hand axe seems so OP on a warrior. Along with those full-turret inge builds.

Basically, blindfolded game balance is still a popular MMO discipline, news at 11 :P

I am so tired of people saying Guardians don’t need changes or additions! Jesus, why are spirit weapons still useless? I can see how they could be made useful:

Make it so they have no cast time (or have a cast time of 1/2 a second… instants are so important, though) and change the skills of the 6-0. The elite could be something along the lines of, “You now weild your activated spirit weapon, but in 15 seconds it disappears. You gain 5 new 1-5 skills to use.” The rest of that could be left to their imagination. The 6 could be a heal of around 3k~ and give a boon that last ten seconds (the boon depends on the spirit weapon). The 7-9 could be unique skills we could make the weapon do, such as condi cleansing, group buff support, or maybe even resurrecting a downed ally

That would be so beautiful

Amins.3710:

Guardians have been nerfed every patch outside of the Staff Change (which is argueable the only change ever made ot the class w/ any sort of balance / QoL for the Guardian)

Amins.3710:

Mediations were a slight buff – not great but absolutely needed in order to make the Med Build work in the current meta. Tha’ts not a buff, that’s a balance change.

I quit my Guardian because the consistent failure to give them any build/playstyle diverisity since… uuum how many patches has it been now? The class has not had a single new “toy” that was worth a dime since launch. Yea so they’re balanced, don’t buff them give them something to give them the option to play differently for Christ’s sake. It’s like ANet made kitten borringmancer of epic dullness and are completely happy with the class as it is. Look around the class is literary a 1 month wonder and then is just discarded and rerolled.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Black Box.9312:

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

The guardian barely recieves anything because it already works.

If it aint broken, don’t fix it.

There are two, maybe three builds that don’t involve the use of broken traits or utilities.

Nope

Nice argument, bro.

While I will admit that ‘broken’ was a poor word choice seeing as it wasn’t meant to be taken literally, the point still stands that the guardian is a very pigeonholed class.

Too many simpletons reading this thread and either take everything literally or have no reading comprehension.

The guardian is very balanced and we all agree with that. HOWEVER, most of the traits are terrible and useless.

Condi guardians and spirit weapons are a joke and are useless in any kind of COMPETITIVE play, be that fractals or even WvW.

People here tend to think that if they are able to solo their personal quests in orr with spirit weapons, or even condi guardians, those skills are fine, which is far from the truth.

Unfortunately this is a game which is extremely easy to pick up and reach a certain power plateau, and because someone clears their personal storyline, they feel they are now experts in GW2 and are able to give perspectives on gamebalance. This is why this game will never be balanced and forums will be plagued with ….newbies who think they know best. Another example I have seen here is people running garbage builds in a zerg, wiping the other zerg out and thinking its due to them. Zerg WvW is an extremely bad example to judge the usefulness of a build because in 99% of the cases, Numbers > optimized builds.

Fact is, that guardian has been pigeonholed into 2 specific traitlines for ages now, and has not seen a breath of fresh air for a while. The only positive change ever made was the buff to meditations which happened over 6 months ago.

The guardian class needs variety, I can hop on to a warrior and play in so many different ways its not even funny. With the guardian its either AH, or 20/25/0/0/25 if i want to stay competitive What I mean is that sure, i can do some silly condi based spirit weapon nonsense, but its such a joke, that I would never bring such a build in a 50 fractal or sPVP.

This patch brought absolutely nothing to the table

Black Box.9312:

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Black Box.9312:

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

The guardian barely recieves anything because it already works.

If it aint broken, don’t fix it.

There are two, maybe three builds that don’t involve the use of broken traits or utilities.

Nope

Nice argument, bro.

Thanks bro

Hunter.4783:

Too many simpletons reading this thread and either take everything literally or have no reading comprehension.

The guardian is very balanced and we all agree with that. HOWEVER, most of the traits are terrible and useless.

Condi guardians and spirit weapons are a joke and are useless in any kind of COMPETITIVE play, be that fractals or even WvW.

People here tend to think that if they are able to solo their personal quests in orr with spirit weapons, or even condi guardians, those skills are fine, which is far from the truth.

Unfortunately this is a game which is extremely easy to pick up and reach a certain power plateau, and because someone clears their personal storyline, they feel they are now experts in GW2 and are able to give perspectives on gamebalance. This is why this game will never be balanced and forums will be plagued with ….newbies who think they know best. Another example I have seen here is people running garbage builds in a zerg, wiping the other zerg out and thinking its due to them. Zerg WvW is an extremely bad example to judge the usefulness of a build because in 99% of the cases, Numbers > optimized builds.

Fact is, that guardian has been pigeonholed into 2 specific traitlines for ages now, and has not seen a breath of fresh air for a while. The only positive change ever made was the buff to meditations which happened over 6 months ago.

The guardian class needs variety, I can hop on to a warrior and play in so many different ways its not even funny. With the guardian its either AH, or 20/25/0/0/25 if i want to stay competitive What I mean is that sure, i can do some silly condi based spirit weapon nonsense, but its such a joke, that I would never bring such a build in a 50 fractal or sPVP.

This patch brought absolutely nothing to the table

You call everyone else simpletons, but every class has this problem, and someone so wise should be aware of this. Guards aren’t special in having a few builds that are the best builds, which is unavoidable given how the game is built.

All I can see from this thread is that guardian players are unhappy with having the same, ultra viable builds, and want different ones. Welcome to every class in guild wars 2. I think what all these simpletons allegedly not understanding the plight of the guardian main are implying, is that there are way bigger issues than creating even more viable guardian options. I’m sorry you’ve had to suffer with being great a certain way for so long, and you want to be great another way now.

Roe.3679:

All I can see from this thread is that guardian players are unhappy with having the same, ultra viable builds, and want different ones. Welcome to every class in guild wars 2.

You would think they would learn that from this.. but nope..

I agree with what Aza said, it’s the mentality — players tend to like DPS more than tanking and/or support.

Why not?

Every class got some goodies this patch, BUT guardians who got nerfed instead. Im cool with the vigor and boon duration nerf as long as we were compensated somehow. But seeing how of our traits and utilities remain….less than optimal for more than a year now is disheartening.

Guardian has 2 great builds sure, but that’s not excuse for pigeonholing this class into 2 viable specs for so long.

How hard is it to change spirit weapons back to their former “glory” and maybe give sword auto bleed, vulnerability or cripple…anything as cover condi for a condi guardian…I mean we do have 3 GRANDMASTER traits around condi yet I can guarantee you no dev came about to testing those specs in actual sPVP before releasing them.

Hunter.4783:

Why not?

Every class got some goodies this patch, BUT guardians who got nerfed instead. Im cool with the vigor and boon duration nerf as long as we were compensated somehow. But seeing how of our traits and utilities remain….less than optimal for more than a year now is disheartening.

Guardian has 2 great builds sure, but that’s not excuse for pigeonholing this class into 2 viable specs for so long.

How hard is it to change spirit weapons back to their former “glory” and maybe give sword auto bleed, vulnerability or cripple…anything as cover condi for a condi guardian…I mean we do have 3 GRANDMASTER traits around condi yet I can guarantee you no dev came about to testing those specs in actual sPVP before releasing them.

I don’t know of any classes that are really going crazy for the new traits. So the argument that “every other class got new traits” and “guardians were indirectly nerfed!” Are pretty invalid. The new traits are attempting to open new builds, just like they try to do for guardians. Seems like they didn’t succeed much with guards, the same as with other classes.

Also guards have some access to vulnerability as a cover condition, and you can get tons of the stuff from new sigils. Tons.

Having to rely on sigils to get a condi build to start being valiable is the most ridiculous argument I have ever heard.

Lets look at condi warriors shall we? They don’t need a sigil for bleeding, do they?

AND warriors get 6k more health for free too so don’t get me started on how “tanky” guardians are.

And you still have not provided any argument on how kittenty spirit weapons are to this day.

Hunter.4783:

Having to rely on sigils to get a condi build to start being valiable is the most ridiculous argument I have ever heard.

Lets look at condi warriors shall we? They don’t need a sigil for bleeding, do they?

AND warriors get 6k more health for free too so don’t get me started on how “tanky” guardians are.

And you still have not provided any argument on how kittenty spirit weapons are to this day.

What you are saying here is one of the core problems that plagues most suggestions and complaints. As soon as you begin to compare another class the argument becomes invalid.

One common element is when comparing classes people tend to compare what they perceive as the good things about the “better class” while not mentioning the negatives, like wise the class they feel is under powered they only mention what they perceive is bad. The result is the comparison becomes rather one sided.

In regards to the guardian class, mostly all skills and utilities tend to follow a common theme: ally support. I made a post several days ago illustrating how well over 50% of guardian’s weapon skills and utilities are geared towards supporting allies in some way. This is the only class that has that much support baked into utilities and weapon skills. This isn’t taking traits into consideration. It should be apparent that guardian is geared towards being the pillar in group, the foundation that other classes revolve around.

Yes the biggest negative is guardian is its a bit behind when it comes to 1v1 in dps or conditions. But their strength is when you placed them in group they can provide extraordinary support or pressure via dps or condition damage.

I suspect that many people who test condition builds with guardian go at it from the angle of a 1v1 against a necro or mesmer etc. They wind up losing and deeming that guardian sucks at conditions. In gw1 this type of mentality probably wouldn’t exist, because roles were more refined in pvp. I consider the role of condition guardian is that of one who can put constant aoe pressure on enemies not one who is a duelist or roamer.

Following the reoccurring theme, guardian is a group class at any aspect of the game. Thats the strength of the class and weakness. Certainly warrior is better at 1v1 battles but inferior when it comes to supporting the group and providing area sustained damage and pressure via conditions. This is my opinion of course, but I like to look at things from a objective perspective.

Hunter.4783:

Having to rely on sigils to get a condi build to start being valiable is the most ridiculous argument I have ever heard.

Lets look at condi warriors shall we? They don’t need a sigil for bleeding, do they?

AND warriors get 6k more health for free too so don’t get me started on how “tanky” guardians are.

And you still have not provided any argument on how kittenty spirit weapons are to this day.

You think other condi classes don’t use those sigils? They do. It’s not ridiculous to suggest guardians could make up for their deficiencies with sigils and runes.

Anyway I don’t need to defend spirit weapons. On the contrary, you need to defend why every single other utility set besides spirit weapons are bad, because only then are guardians ignored and in such dire need of attention. Until then, guards are just like every other class.

#guardianexceptionalism

I have an idear

Amplified Wrath can be changed so that it makes the passive of Virtue of Justice also grants Swiftness for 5s every 8s. That way guardian may be able to roam like other classes but the trait is positioned so that it cant easily be in a tanky build.

For Kindled Zeal, it can maybe life steal on burn ticks, that way a dmg build can sustain itself like a support build.

As for Spirit Weapons they can be changed from AI to something like conjured weapons but the skills would be based on the existing guardian weapons (EX: Spirit Hammer has guardian hammer skills but only has x amount of charges and Banish is replaced by the skill that sacrifices the hammer like it currently does)

Shield of Judgement on the Spirit Shield would be the current skill that sacrifices the shield

Sword of Justice is replacing flashing blade except that you still teleport to the target

Bow of Truth can have an ability like Fan of Fire that applied bleed and an ability like Point Blank Shot that applies poison, a version of Barrage that heals and cures conditions rather than damage enemies, a version of shadowshot that burns, and an auto attack that targets like cluster bomb
This spirit weapon change would hit 6 birds with one stone (including guardians lack of other condition ticks)

Radiant retaliation can be changed so that when a condition is applied to you twice or more within x secs, it will transfer that condition to the sender.
That way Zeal can be defensive and Guardian can apply conditions it doesn’t have access to and it discourages spam

Communal Defenses can be changed so that Purity also affects allies every 15s

Force of Will can be changed so it gives you x% of toughness (or %damage reduction) per missing health

Purity of Body can be changed so that nearby enemies are dazed .5 sec every time you cleanse a condition

Super Riceman.8702:

I have an idear

Amplified Wrath can be changed so that it makes the passive of Virtue of Justice also grants Swiftness for 5s every 8s. That way guardian may be able to roam like other classes but the trait is positioned so that it cant easily be in a tanky build.

For Kindled Zeal, it can maybe life steal on burn ticks, that way a dmg build can sustain itself like a support build.

As for Spirit Weapons they can be changed from AI to something like conjured weapons but the skills would be based on the existing guardian weapons (EX: Spirit Hammer has guardian hammer skills but only has x amount of charges)

Radiant retaliation can be changed so that when a condition is applied to you twice or more within x secs, it will transfer that condition to the sender.
That way Zeal can be defensive and Guardian can apply conditions it doesn’t have access to and it discourages spam

Communal Defenses can be changed so that Purity also affects allies every 15s

Force of Will can be changed so it gives you x% of toughness (or %damage reduction) per missing health

Purity of Body can be changed so that nearby enemies are dazed .5 sec every time you cleanse a condition

Those are some interesting ideas, but Anet will never implement them. At this point they wont make radical game changes, only number and maybe trait merges.

For spirit weapons all they have to do is change them back to invulnerable, and play with damage/utility numbers from there.

Condi builds are a complete different story however, to make condi viable for a guardian they need to allow guardians some way to spam either bleeds, or another cover condition, say vulnerability on auto AND allow for easier application of burning. As of now you have JI and F1 which apply burning but once that is cleansed, or runs out, you are gonna have a hard time to reapply it. Not to mention the amount of traits you have to spend just to make condi viable is ridiculous. The other way to put burning is every kittens or 4 untraited but that also is 1 sec and not very controlled. Besides, not many are gonna let you chain attacks on them in PVP.

I like picking on warriors but I think the warrior class is better designed. You have the sword auto which can be used for both power and condi builds depending on the preference. Why can’t the guardian be the same?

Why can’t Guardian sword at least be TRAITED to apply bleeding? Same thing can be done with symbols, by making the symbolic exposure vulnerability last 10 sec or so. Anything to provide cover condi for burning.

And even still, if guardians go settler, or rabid gear, they are stuck with 10k HP to work with, which is not very feasible. This is one of the reasons guardians are forced to put points in honor.

As you see people, the problem with the guardian is 2 fold:

1. Not enough traits and weapons to make condi viable
2. There is not much room to play around with builds and stats because mainly of the lack of HP, which forces guardians to at least build some HP. Unlike warriors who have a ridiculous HP tool and can forego HP w/o repercussions.

(note, point #2 is mainly for PVP and WvW)

If you think the guardian is mainly a support and should remain such, then yes ofc they are balanced. But if you wanna adhere to the Anet ideology that every class should be able to fulfill each role, the guardian falls short.

Hunter.4783:

Those are some interesting ideas, but Anet will never implement them. At this point they wont make radical game changes, only number and maybe trait merges.

They won’t? They don’t make radical changes? Changes like revamping engineer turrets almost completely? Changing like rebuilding ranger pet control AI’s? Changes like adding multiple GM traits to every profession in one update? Like rebuilding some of the professional traits so that the have a all together different function and concept?

There is no reason they cannot work on spirit weapons similarly to how they reworked turret and fixed a massive amount of bugs on them. You bad attitude and rude insinuation are counter productive, and will in no way productively aid your cause.

Sorry, but your self created frustration and hostility you developed toward Anet to allow you to ignore the drastic and needed changes throughout the game since release, does not change the fact that they have consistently done precisely what you are suggesting they will not do.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Hunter.4783:

Those are some interesting ideas, but Anet will never implement them. At this point they wont make radical game changes, only number and maybe trait merges.

They won’t? They don’t make radical changes? Changes like revamping engineer turrets almost completely? Changing like rebuilding ranger pet control AI’s? Changes like adding multiple GM traits to every profession in one update? Like rebuilding some of the professional traits so that the have a all together different function and concept?

Sorry, but your self created frustration and hostility you developed toward Anet to allow you to ignore the drastic and needed changes throughout the game since release, does not change the fact that they have consistently done precisely what you are suggesting they will not do.

Stop preventing me from getting angry,
Raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

I love how everyone here is fighting over whether or not a class should be receiving more or less attention as if their favored class were a child competing for moms love over their siblings. Every class has problems, that’s why this forum section is here. I don’t begrudge the warrior who wants a better great sword or offhand axe any more than the ranger who wants stronger bow mechanics or signets.

So in the name of civility, please:

Step 1: Don’t act like your class has more problems than the rest. At this point in time, all classes are going to have to evolve to fit whatever the new meta turns out to be. We don’t know that quite yet.

Step 2: Don’t be afraid of others suggestions. No matter what people ask for, the Devs attempt will always be to balance a class in a balanced way. They may fail, but they will try. Ask yourself why a class having more viable yet balanced options is bad for you? Is it because you don’t play that class, or even like that class? Do you believe that it will somehow get changes and your favored class won’t? Is it simply jealousy?

Step 3: Be constructive. No one ever fixed anything by tearing everything apart. There is a reason they call it DEstructive.

Thank you for your time. May this thread die and better one take its place.