Guild Wars 2

I believe this trait needs complete rework.
True, there HAVE been times in which it has saved me, but there were also a lot of times in which I have been killed by it.

Last Refuge (Shadow Arts Minor Adept Trait):
Use Blinding Powder when your health reaches a certain threshold.
-Health threshold: 25%

Let’s see WHEN it is a good trait to have.
1) if you are already stealthed and are running away. It is "good", because if it procs, it will extend the stealth duration and will blind nearby enemies, thus improving your chances of escaping.
2) if you are disabled. It is good because you would enter stealth and will blind nearby enemies, thus improving your chances of survival.

On the other hand, let’s see WHEN it is a bad trait to have:
1) If you are not disabled and are attacking your target. Your next attack will give you Revealed, and since you would be already at low health, you would immediatly need to back off from your target. Failure to do so usually results on your death.
2) If you are fighting alongside a nearby thief who is attacking his target. Same reason as above, but of course the victim will be the other thief. Results here could be even worse, because the other thief would get Revealed out of nowhere and most times he will be dead before he realize what happened. If the "user" is experienced, he will know what happens when it procs, and AT LEAST it will give him time to react or to understand what happened. But if it procs and stealths a nearby thief (assuming him to be a SA based thief, thus with stealth as main defense), he would rarely understand why he got Revealed. Even worse, the other thief could waste a lot of initiative trying to get into stealth again, adding to the problem.
3) (minor issue) If you already have Revealed, the only thing this trait will do is to blind nearby enemies, thus greatly limiting the effectiveness of it.
In a way, when this happens it would be a good thing for you, because you would be ensured you wouldn’t face the #1 issue, which is far worse.

This problem applies to every area of the game, be it WvW, PvP and PvE.

In my opinion, I find that traits should always be a "win-win" situation. That is, no matter how powerful, there shouldn’t be situations in which having a particular trait would dampen your survival BECAUSE of the trait itself. If such situations exist, the trait should be changed. The fact that Last Refuge is a MINOR trait, and as such it is mandatory for every thief who specs into Shadow Arts, greatly adds to the problem.

That’s why I believe it needs a rework.

Now, let’s see what we could change in order to fix this problem.

Many people have asked for it to remove the Revealed debuff.
This change would fix the #3 minor issue I listed above, but would worsen the #1 issue.
True, it will "cure" Revealed, so you would always benefit of the "full" effectiveness of the trait. However, it would potentially increase your Revaled time if you are timing your attacks in the proper way.
I’ll provide an example:
Let’s assume a D/P thief. The thief has just backstabbed the enemy, thus getting Revealed and exiting stealth. The thief now casts a Black Powder (off hand pistol #5 skill), and proceeds to autoattack the enemy, planning to Heartseeker through the Smoke Field when the Revealed debuff expires.
IF this change would be implemented, there is a chance for the thief to proc the trait while autoattacking, curing revealed but giving an additional 3s (4s in PvP) of Revealed upon landing the following autoattack, thus messing with his rotation.
-->let’s discard this change, as it could potentially do more harm than good.

Another possibility is to make it that the stealth you get from it would be "unbreakable" for the whole duration.
While this would solve all the issues I listed, this change will make the trait too good, as you could attack your target while stealthed for 3s (4s if traited) withoug worrying about getting revealed.
-->So let’s discard this change too, as it would make this trait ridiculously OP.

The last thing I could think of, is to change the "stealth" part of the trait, making it only work as an AoE Blind rather than a AoE Blind+Stealth
This thing would solve all the problems, while still being a good thing to have as a low HP proc trait
There wouldn’t be situations in which you would die because you wouldn’t get revealed out of nowhere. At the same time, nearby enemies would still get blinded, so it will improve your survival anyway (which is what you would want from a 25% HP proc trait).
-->This change would make this trait actually good to have, and would completely fit a Minor Adept trait in terms of cost-effect.

Any other thoughts are appreciated. If any other good solution would be posted, I will add it to this post.

EDIT: typos

hihey.1075:

Another possibility is to make it that the stealth you get from it would be “unbreakable” for the whole duration.
While this would solve all the issues I listed, this change will make the trait too good, as you could attack your target while stealthed for 3s (4s if traited) withoug worrying about getting revealed.
—>So let’s discard this change too, as it would make this trait ridiculously OP.

One possibility about this suggestion would be to make the ‘unbreakable stealth’ like the stealth from the fountains in Obsidian Sanctum. When it hits, all weapon skills and utilities are locked out for the duration of the stealth. This would have it’s own disadvantages, in that it would in effect be a daze. Not to mention it would prevent you from being able to heal while the stealth is up. Could just lock out the weapon skills and leave heals and utilities available, but certain utilities could run into the issue mentioned about being able to do damage without dropping stealth.

I think on the whole, a better solution would be to replace the stealth with a ‘revealed-less’ stealth. The stealth from Last Refuge still goes off even if you’re revealed, and dropping this specific stealth would not cause revealed. I don’t think this is that unbalancing, since it’s not a controllable way to apply stealth for the sake of a backstab or what have you.

I’ve said this on other threads, it doesn’t need to be stealth. I’d be happy with it just poping Aegis + Regen or something. Might be too hard/unbalancing to make “unbreakable stealth”.

Kadin.2356:

I’ve said this on other threads, it doesn’t need to be stealth. I’d be happy with it just poping Aegis + Regen or something. Might be too hard/unbalancing to make “unbreakable stealth”.

That or a smoke field.

Just let it refill some endurance, or apply 5 seconds of vigor, black powder, or something else.

It’s a trait in the Shadow Arts traitline – as such, it must do something related to the “Shadows”.
An AoE blind would be the best thing in my opinion. It wouldn’t have any sort of drawbacks and it wouldn’t be difficult to implement, and would completely fit the “lore” of the class.

When i played my thief a lot, this trait killed me more then any other trait in the game.

Terravos.4059:

When i played my thief a lot, this trait killed me more then any other trait in the game.

if ur not spamming short-bow 3 , stealth, or pistol-whip, ur not doing it right.

Shouldn’t Stealth on steal be the 5 point trait? Since it can reliably proc 15 SA and 25 SA.
Granted it changes playstyles like BP – Headshot steal, and CnD steal but there’s no question of reliability.

Change it so when it procs you simply stealth but you lose the ability to use your weapon skills for the duration of the stealth. This will prevent you from accidentally activating ‘revealed’ while this procs in a fight.

How about it pulses an AoE blind once or twice (not necessarily a smoke field, but more like the Cloaked in Shadow trait), and removes any existing Revealed status? That way you get some mitigation to react and panick-stealth yourself.

Also, I feel like 25% health threshold is too low for such a squishy class.

Let it give us protection while in stealth

Josh Davis.6015:

Last Refuge is something we’ve been talking about quite a bit internally, and we certainly don’t like the way it can occasionally unintentionally punish players.

We’d like to keep the minor traits in Shadow Arts thematically the same (stealth based) rather than simply providing boons or something similar. Keep that in mind when you’re suggestions changes for Last Refuge.

Thanks for the feedback!

I appreciate the fact that the balance team is looking into this issue.
Still, I find that, no matter what, giving stealth to the thief unintentionally is really risky.
Giving stealth to the thief but locking him out of his weapon skills for the whole duration (3s, 4s if traited) could be even worse than the main issue, and I think it’s out of the question.

I’ve tried thinking about everything stealth based, and nothing viable has come into my mind.

Possibilities were:
a) _ to stealth yourself and to shadowstep away from your enemy_ (like Hard to Catch), but seeing the feedback on Hard to Catch I think this would make the thing even riskier (and you could still proc Revealed unintentionally if you were about to use a ranged attack).

b) Make the trait proc Shadow Refuge instead than Blinding Powder
This would be interesting, because even if you get revealed as soon as the skill procs, you could still get the last pulse of the Refuge as stealth. Of course the CD should be increased, but I believe this to be too much (a free Shadow Refuge on a 5 point trait is too good).

The last solution would be to change the trait entirely or making it a Major Trait. The things I mentioned above, included those in the open post, should all be quick to implement.

At 25% you use blinding powder. If you’re disabled and a warrior is wailing on you, PBAoE blind. If you’re fleeing and it procs, smoke field for blast finisher/heartseeker. Still gives the stealth if you want it, doesn’t reveal you when you don’t.

Simplicity.7208:

At 25% you use blinding powder. If you’re disabled and a warrior is wailing on you, PBAoE blind. If you’re fleeing and it procs, smoke field for blast finisher/heartseeker. Still gives the stealth if you want it, doesn’t reveal you when you don’t.

Maybe you are confusing Blinding Powder (which is the skill that procs now) with Black Powder (which is a smoke field).

The access to stealth would be limited to those specs which run Dagger as main hand, but that’s basically what I suggested in the open post ^^

Black powder! Yes! Sorry lol.

Also every thief ever runs shortbow secondary weaponset. #2 is AoE stealth.

Something stealth based that can go off passively, and doesn’t have the potential in accidentally harming the thief?……hmmmm

When health threshold reaches 10-25%, you are immune to reveal for 2-3 seconds, (30s cd)
Something like that? I think it would be fine, I would think if a thief is that low of health, the last thing on his mind would be spamming backstabs.

The real culprit is the combination with Revealed, have it (additionally) grant immunity to revealed for 5 seconds

Silly idea, but what about having the stealth from the trait simply remove stealth if damage is done, and NOT apply Revealed? That way you can get the stealth, but aren’t punished with Revealed no matter what when it procs.

Last Refuge. Use Blinding Powder when your next action ends after your health reaches a certain threshold

hihey.1075:

Last Refuge (Shadow Arts Minor Adept Trait):
Use Blinding Powder when your health reaches a certain threshold.
-Health threshold: 25%

Shadow Arts is a stealth and venoms line.

They could change it from a Stealth proc to a Venom proc:

The best one I can think you would want at 25% is some healing.

So I would suggest:

Gain Skelk Venom at 25% health (cooldown: 60 seconds) – instant cast.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Skelk_Venom

Thieves will like this because:
- It isn’t blinding powder
- Gives them better sustain

Other professions will like this change because:
- Stops the thief going invisible just as you are about to kill him
- Rewards the thief for staying in the fight instead of running away
- Long cooldown so the sustain is not over powered

I think any stealth ability should interrupt any action in progress and/or lock any damaging skill for a small period from 0.2s to 0.5s (the right number shouldnt be so hard to find). This will solve the problem of getting out of stealth by accident not only for the trait but stealth skills in general.

Experienced players shouldnt have problems with this change meanwhile newbies to the class will be less punished while learning the mechanics. Reducing the skill cap of stealth should help to balance the anoying parts of the same in the future.

Just make it like the trait the engineer has “auto drink elixir S at 25 % HP”, plus the stealth, but only for the very first second. Rest duration should be normal stealth.
This way during the very first second the LS procs the thief will have all skills disabled, but will also get immunity. After 1 second it will be normal stealth.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Desperate_Decoy

-The stealth is granted even while revealed.

This skill is basically last refuge, but doesn’t give revealed debuff (different version of stealth). Also, it’s an adept trait, and you are not forced to pick it. Is it so hard to do the same with last refuge? Additionally, swap it with shadow’s embrace, cloaked in shadow or infusion of shadow.

In my 2k+ hours of playing a thief I literally can’t think of a single time this trait has been the sole cause of my death, or even a significant reason in why I died. If I die due to getting revealed by this trait, is at a point where I would’ve died anyways because I was being too reckless. I can however think of several hundred times in which it has absolutely saved my life, either by clearing a condi from Shadow’s Embrace or blinding an enemy attack that wouldve killed me, or giving me an escape when everything else was on cooldown. There is no need to rework this trait, as it works perfectly if you understand how to use it.

That’s nice but most likely because you’ve learned to retreat before Last Refuge kicks in. LR is fine when it kicks in after you’ve decided it’s time to check that LA’s Lion hasn’t been stolen, or i.o.w, when your personal ‘treshold’ to retreat is somewhere above its 25% – and even then you’d better not use C&D to gain stealth.

Maybe the simplest fix would be to change the threshold, to 10-15%

The best thing i could think of is to give the Thief the thing it lacks most: Stability.

Think about it. 25% hp, blinds nearby enemies, and gives 3 secs of stability to safeguard an escape. I think that it would be awesome and infinitely more useful then the current trait.

I really should be watching my health and counting down the internal cooldown :P However I find that this trait procs just as I’m casting CnD. So not only am I revealing myself at low health, but I just wasted 6 initiative.

Here are some suggestions that are stealth based:
1) Keep the trait as it is but give the player a 3-4 second boon where hitting from stealth won’t give them the revealed debuff but will still unstealth them.
2) Gain a few seconds of protection the next time the player is in stealth when below a health threshold (has a cooldown).

edit: forget the first suggestion. Messing with revealed is bad.

DanielGames.5198:

I really should be watching my health and counting down the internal cooldown :P However I find that this trait procs just as I’m casting CnD. So not only am I revealing myself at low health, but I just wasted 6 initiative.

Here are some suggestions that are stealth based:
1) Keep the trait as it is but give the player a 3-4 second boon where hitting from stealth won’t give them the revealed debuff but will still unstealth them.
2) Gain a few seconds of protection the next time the player is in stealth when below a health threshold (has a cooldown).

The first suggestion COULD be potentially broken: assuming a D/D thief, he could potentially proc Last Refuge→Backstab→CnD→Backstab. All this in 2 seconds. And I could already foresee “good” thieves getting the advantage of this. Of course it’s risky, but it would be a borderline OP burst.

The second one is easier to implement and would be quite good actually. It is stealth based too, so maybe could please the devs.
Gonna add this to the OP later.

hihey.1075:

DanielGames.5198:

I really should be watching my health and counting down the internal cooldown :P However I find that this trait procs just as I’m casting CnD. So not only am I revealing myself at low health, but I just wasted 6 initiative.

Here are some suggestions that are stealth based:
1) Keep the trait as it is but give the player a 3-4 second boon where hitting from stealth won’t give them the revealed debuff but will still unstealth them.
2) Gain a few seconds of protection the next time the player is in stealth when below a health threshold (has a cooldown).

The first suggestion COULD be potentially broken: assuming a D/D thief, he could potentially proc Last Refuge->Backstab->CnD->Backstab. All this in 2 seconds. And I could already foresee “good” thieves getting the advantage of this. Of course it’s risky, but it would be a borderline OP burst.

Ya the anti revealed boon should go away after the first time but I agree that a good d/d thief would take advantage of 2 quick backstabs. I guess messing with revealed isn’t such a great idea hehe.

Well, personally I’ve died plenty of times due to Last Refuge kicking in. Mostly because I don’t immediately flee when I’m a bit pressured, and when you suddenly get bursted down to 20% HP while you’re in the process of landing that cloak and dagger you’re basically screwed. It’s very frustrating when it happens.

What about changing Last Refuge so it refreshes your Blinding Powder utility skill? Though in that case the health percentage it triggers at currently is too low in my opinion (because it probably takes a moment before you realize your Blinding Powder is available again), and I would suggest increasing the trigger to be about 40% of your HP.

The trait would only be useful if you actually have Blinding Powder slotted, so it would make more sense as a major adept trait instead of a minor one then. Perhaps turning a trait like Infusion of Shadow into the new minor adept trait instead of Last Refuge would be a good option.

CrazyCanuck.4265:

In my 2k+ hours of playing a thief I literally can’t think of a single time this trait has been the sole cause of my death, or even a significant reason in why I died. If I die due to getting revealed by this trait, is at a point where I would’ve died anyways because I was being too reckless. I can however think of several hundred times in which it has absolutely saved my life, either by clearing a condi from Shadow’s Embrace or blinding an enemy attack that wouldve killed me, or giving me an escape when everything else was on cooldown. There is no need to rework this trait, as it works perfectly if you understand how to use it.

This sounds like you’re talking PvE.

PvP is the realm where last refuge is an issue. It will get you killed you in PvP. Your assessment that it’s working perfectly, and those who don’t understand it is completely incorrect from a PvP standpoint.

Josh Davis.6015:

Last Refuge is something we’ve been talking about quite a bit internally, and we certainly don’t like the way it can occasionally unintentionally punish players.

We’d like to keep the minor traits in Shadow Arts thematically the same (stealth based) rather than simply providing boons or something similar. Keep that in mind when you’re suggestions changes for Last Refuge.

Thanks for the feedback!

I have an idea that will make Last Refuge more player friendly while also keeping it Stealth based.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Throw_Feathers

When your health reaches 25%, you gain Throw Feathers in your Steal skill.

This allows the Thief to get a free Stealth(which is what you want from Last Refuge) which can be player-triggered(thus no more unintentional Stealth). This however could seem a little overpowered, but keep reading.

The balancing issues with this are:
1. If you already have a Steal skill.
Let’s say you already have Consume Plasma. We can either make Throw Feathers replace Consume Plasma, or Last Refuge does not trigger at all and the Thief keeps Consume Plasma.

2. If your Steal skill is on recharge.
We can either give Throw Feathers to the Thief while making it keep the remaining recharge left on Steal, or allow Steal to recharge instantly when Last Refuge activates.

3. The possibility of adding a cooldown to Last Refuge.
Depending on what you choose to do in 1. and 2. as well as whether this new mechanic is overpowered or not, you might want to add a cooldown to Last Refuge to balance it out.
If you choose Last Refuge does not trigger at all if you already have a Steal skill, then Last Refuge does not go on cooldown unless it activates at all.
If you choose to make Last Refuge give Throw Feathers and recharge Steal instantly so the Thief can use the skill, then there should be a cooldown on Last Refuge triggering again.

Turtle Dragon.9241:

Josh Davis.6015:

Last Refuge is something we’ve been talking about quite a bit internally, and we certainly don’t like the way it can occasionally unintentionally punish players.

We’d like to keep the minor traits in Shadow Arts thematically the same (stealth based) rather than simply providing boons or something similar. Keep that in mind when you’re suggestions changes for Last Refuge.

Thanks for the feedback!

I have an idea that will make Last Refuge more player friendly while also keeping it Stealth based.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Throw_Feathers

When your health reaches 25%, you gain Throw Feathers in your Steal skill.

This allows the Thief to get a free Stealth(which is what you want from Last Refuge) which can be player-triggered(thus no more unintentional Stealth). This however could seem a little overpowered, but keep reading.

The balancing issues with this are:
1. If you already have a Steal skill.
Let’s say you already have Consume Plasma. We can either make Throw Feathers replace Consume Plasma, or Last Refuge does not trigger at all and the Thief keeps Consume Plasma.

2. If your Steal skill is on recharge.
We can either give Throw Feathers to the Thief while making it keep the remaining recharge left on Steal, or allow Steal to recharge instantly when Last Refuge activates.

3. The possibility of adding a cooldown to Last Refuge.
Depending on what you choose to do in 1. and 2. as well as whether this new mechanic is overpowered or not, you might want to add a cooldown to Last Refuge to balance it out.
If you choose Last Refuge does not trigger at all if you already have a Steal skill, then Last Refuge does not go on cooldown unless it activates at all.
If you choose to make Last Refuge give Throw Feathers and recharge Steal instantly so the Thief can use the skill, then there should be a cooldown on Last Refuge triggering again.

The problem is, any way in which you attempt to keep the skill stealth based will be flawed. Either the skill will be affected by revealed and be UP, or will ignore/circumvent revealed in some way and be potentially OP in the right situations. The skill simply cannot remain stealth based – if the devs want it to be useful it needs to be redesigned, no matter how much the dev team wants it to remain thematically centered around stealth.

evilapprentice.6379:

Turtle Dragon.9241:

Josh Davis.6015:

Last Refuge is something we’ve been talking about quite a bit internally, and we certainly don’t like the way it can occasionally unintentionally punish players.

We’d like to keep the minor traits in Shadow Arts thematically the same (stealth based) rather than simply providing boons or something similar. Keep that in mind when you’re suggestions changes for Last Refuge.

Thanks for the feedback!

I have an idea that will make Last Refuge more player friendly while also keeping it Stealth based.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Throw_Feathers

When your health reaches 25%, you gain Throw Feathers in your Steal skill.

This allows the Thief to get a free Stealth(which is what you want from Last Refuge) which can be player-triggered(thus no more unintentional Stealth). This however could seem a little overpowered, but keep reading.

The balancing issues with this are:
1. If you already have a Steal skill.
Let’s say you already have Consume Plasma. We can either make Throw Feathers replace Consume Plasma, or Last Refuge does not trigger at all and the Thief keeps Consume Plasma.

2. If your Steal skill is on recharge.
We can either give Throw Feathers to the Thief while making it keep the remaining recharge left on Steal, or allow Steal to recharge instantly when Last Refuge activates.

3. The possibility of adding a cooldown to Last Refuge.
Depending on what you choose to do in 1. and 2. as well as whether this new mechanic is overpowered or not, you might want to add a cooldown to Last Refuge to balance it out.
If you choose Last Refuge does not trigger at all if you already have a Steal skill, then Last Refuge does not go on cooldown unless it activates at all.
If you choose to make Last Refuge give Throw Feathers and recharge Steal instantly so the Thief can use the skill, then there should be a cooldown on Last Refuge triggering again.

The problem is, any way in which you attempt to keep the skill stealth based will be flawed. Either the skill will be affected by revealed and be UP, or will ignore/circumvent revealed in some way and be potentially OP in the right situations. The skill simply cannot remain stealth based – if the devs want it to be useful it needs to be redesigned, no matter how much the dev team wants it to remain thematically centered around stealth.

With a 60-90 recharge on it, i doubt it would be overpowered.
It would only be 3 seconds on Stealth(as much as Leaping through a Smoke Field).

I am also aware that this could interfere with Steal-style gameplay, as replacing your well traited Steal with something else in the middle of combat can have nasty side effects, but given that Steal skill itself already has a separate recharge from any “Stolen” skill, your Throw Feathers should not interfere much with Steal skill(use Throw Feathers and you get Steal back to what its current recharge was).

However, gaining a triggerable(intentional) Throw Feathers is a far better option than getting a random Stealth that unintentionally kills yourself.

Turtle Dragon.9241:

With a 60-90 recharge on it, i doubt it would be overpowered.
It would only be 3 seconds on Stealth(as much as Leaping through a Smoke Field).

I am also aware that this could interfere with Steal-style gameplay, as replacing your well traited Steal with something else in the middle of combat can have nasty side effects, but given that Steal skill itself already has a separate recharge from any “Stolen” skill, your Throw Feathers should not interfere much with Steal skill(use Throw Feathers and you get Steal back to what its current recharge was).

However, gaining a triggerable(intentional) Throw Feathers is a far better option than getting a random Stealth that unintentionally kills yourself.

Well yes, if you gave me the option to have my arm broken or have a finger broken, I’d take the finger, but I wouldn’t be a particular fan of either.

That’s not meant to insult your suggestion – it was a good one considering the dev team mentioned that they want to keep the skill stealth based, but it’s still far too limiting. The design behind these traits is that they fire automatically, to give you a little bit of defense even if you aren’t quick enough or able to do so because of CC – unfortunately giving a thief throw feathers isn’t very powerful in that context.

Easy fix for the issue. It should have 2 parts.

1. Puts you into stealth for 3 seconds at 25% health ignoring any existing revealed status
2. Next attack does not cause revealed flag

Play around with the recharge to make it balanced and this should work for everyone.

style.6173:

Easy fix for the issue. It should have 2 parts.

1. Puts you into stealth for 3 seconds at 25% health ignoring any existing revealed status
2. Next attack does not cause revealed flag

Play around with the recharge to make it balanced and this should work for everyone.

2. Consecutive Backstabs?

Turtle Dragon.9241:

style.6173:

Easy fix for the issue. It should have 2 parts.

1. Puts you into stealth for 3 seconds at 25% health ignoring any existing revealed status
2. Next attack does not cause revealed flag

Play around with the recharge to make it balanced and this should work for everyone.

2. Consecutive Backstabs?

And that’s the problem with ignoring revealed – it’s not as big a deal for Mesmer because they weren’t balanced around powerful stealth only attacks. Even option 1 will generate ridiculous forum QQ – “A thief backstabbed me, took some damage, triggered Last refuge, then backstabbed me again in 2 seconds” – it won’t be a common occurrence, but people will notice when it happens, and complain about it.

evilapprentice.6379:

Turtle Dragon.9241:

style.6173:

Easy fix for the issue. It should have 2 parts.

1. Puts you into stealth for 3 seconds at 25% health ignoring any existing revealed status
2. Next attack does not cause revealed flag

Play around with the recharge to make it balanced and this should work for everyone.

2. Consecutive Backstabs?

And that’s the problem with ignoring revealed – it’s not as big a deal for Mesmer because they weren’t balanced around powerful stealth only attacks. Even option 1 will generate ridiculous forum QQ – “A thief backstabbed me, took some damage, triggered Last refuge, then backstabbed me again in 2 seconds” – it won’t be a common occurrence, but people will notice when it happens, and complain about it.

Yea that would be too large of a burst potential. I really like the idea of dropping a smoke/blind field or a very short duration smoke screen though.

evilapprentice.6379:

CrazyCanuck.4265:

In my 2k+ hours of playing a thief I literally can’t think of a single time this trait has been the sole cause of my death, or even a significant reason in why I died. If I die due to getting revealed by this trait, is at a point where I would’ve died anyways because I was being too reckless. I can however think of several hundred times in which it has absolutely saved my life, either by clearing a condi from Shadow’s Embrace or blinding an enemy attack that wouldve killed me, or giving me an escape when everything else was on cooldown. There is no need to rework this trait, as it works perfectly if you understand how to use it.

This sounds like you’re talking PvE.

PvP is the realm where last refuge is an issue. It will get you killed you in PvP. Your assessment that it’s working perfectly, and those who don’t understand it is completely incorrect from a PvP standpoint.

90% of my time on all my classes is in WvW/SPvP.

Turtle Dragon.9241:

style.6173:

Easy fix for the issue. It should have 2 parts.

1. Puts you into stealth for 3 seconds at 25% health ignoring any existing revealed status
2. Next attack does not cause revealed flag

Play around with the recharge to make it balanced and this should work for everyone.

2. Consecutive Backstabs?

you are missing the main point though. That’s why you adjust the recharge. It’s not like someone can plan for 2 backstabs (and not everyone uses dagger mainhand). Sure it could happen once in a while, but it isn’t that big of a deal.

style.6173:

Turtle Dragon.9241:

style.6173:

Easy fix for the issue. It should have 2 parts.

1. Puts you into stealth for 3 seconds at 25% health ignoring any existing revealed status
2. Next attack does not cause revealed flag

Play around with the recharge to make it balanced and this should work for everyone.

2. Consecutive Backstabs?

you are missing the main point though. That’s why you adjust the recharge. It’s not like someone can plan for 2 backstabs (and not everyone uses dagger mainhand). Sure it could happen once in a while, but it isn’t that big of a deal.

Actually it is. You CAN plan for 2 backstabs pretty easily, and doing so in the current condition meta is even easier: you could just wait for the conditions to proc the trait: getting 2 consecutive backstabs would be cake for experienced players.

style.6173:

Turtle Dragon.9241:

style.6173:

Easy fix for the issue. It should have 2 parts.

1. Puts you into stealth for 3 seconds at 25% health ignoring any existing revealed status
2. Next attack does not cause revealed flag

Play around with the recharge to make it balanced and this should work for everyone.

2. Consecutive Backstabs?

you are missing the main point though. That’s why you adjust the recharge. It’s not like someone can plan for 2 backstabs (and not everyone uses dagger mainhand). Sure it could happen once in a while, but it isn’t that big of a deal.

It is a big of a deal. Brokenness of multiple backstabs were the reason Revealed was added after all.

I agree with the non-stealth ideas. A AoE blind or a Smoke Field would be simply gold for a 5 point trait.

At the very least Last Refuge should behave like Blinding Powder and cancel all in progress/pending actions on proc.

It’s clearly a bug that last refuge doesn’t behave that way.

And that wouldn’t even solve all the problems. For example, if you’re p/d and have a bullet mid-air when LR proc’s you’ll lose the stealth when it hits a target and get troll revealed. It happens more than you would think.

This trait is so frustrating.

Aeden.5896:

At the very least Last Refuge should behave like Blinding Powder and cancel all in progress/pending actions on proc.

It’s clearly a bug that last refuge doesn’t behave that way.

And that wouldn’t even solve all the problems. For example, if you’re p/d and have a bullet mid-air when LR proc’s you’ll lose the stealth when it hits a target and get troll revealed. It happens more than you would think.

This trait is so frustrating.

It’s not a bug. Blinding Powder is an istant cast ability with no aftercast, meaning that you can activate it whenever you like.

I agree with the second part, this trait hurts “ranged” thieves even more.

So a thought occurred to me.

When you use heartseeker through a blackpowder, even if you hit your target, you gain stealth – it appears as though mechanically, the stealth isn’t applied until the very end of the skill, so the fact that HS did damage does not effect you gaining stealth (IIRC, Haven’t played D/P in about a year).

Why not make last refuge operate the same way mechanically? If the thief isn’t using any skills, they are immediately stealthed – if they are in the middle of a skill, they gain stealth at the completion of the skill, as if they had leapt through a smoke field. Would that be too difficult to program that kind of split? It would solve 90% of LR’s problems.

Why not change it to camouflage instead? That one grants ‘stealth’ as long as you stand still and does not grant revealed as far as I am aware.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Camouflage

We could have an animation that shows stealth is coming.

Perhaps a cloud of blinding smoke that shows an AoE ring, and ‘blasts’ into AoE stealth a second (and a half?) later. This should give you the time to disengage?