Guild Wars 2

1. On weapon hit, avatar blurs before going back into stealth.
2. On weapon hit, damage appears where avatar in stealth was hit without blurring.
3. Hit points reset timer will not start while in stealth.

No trolling please. Just serious comments. Reminder guys, this is about Stealth. Not Thieves. Not Mesmers. Last I checked there is a thief/mesmer class forum.

EDIT: #2 is different from #1 because the avatar will not blur into screen at all. Just the weapon damage.

Stealth should counter itself, stealthed enemies visible and targetable when you are stealthed.

What if there was an actual animation of becoming invisible?

You don’t need visual clues, you need to get into their mind. I find it easier to hit my own c&d on thieves in stealth then on most non-thief players.

frans.8092:

You don’t need visual clues, you need to get into their mind. I find it easier to hit my own c&d on thieves in stealth then on most non-thief players.

Not all can think like a thief. If it works for you then good for you. If you play against you then you will play differently so you cannot guess you.

Anyone in stealth can be anywhere. Not a L2P issue.

ShakeyStorm.7180:

frans.8092:

You don’t need visual clues, you need to get into their mind. I find it easier to hit my own c&d on thieves in stealth then on most non-thief players.

Not all can think like a thief.

That is something you can learn, hence why it really is a learn-to-play issue.

Anyone in stealth can be anywhere. Not a L2P issue.

They could be ‘anywhere’, but they won’t, they’ll be where they think is the best place to be – and that is precisely where your thinking has to be. So again, it is a L2P issue.

Btw, I believe they had damage numbers visible in early testing/beta, but that was changed before release. The reason is obvious, it completely negates stealth, which might give you the free lootbags you’re so desire, but it is hardly ‘balancing’.

frans.8092:

ShakeyStorm.7180:

frans.8092:

You don’t need visual clues, you need to get into their mind. I find it easier to hit my own c&d on thieves in stealth then on most non-thief players.

Not all can think like a thief.

That is something you can learn, hence why it really is a learn-to-play issue.

Anyone in stealth can be anywhere. Not a L2P issue.

They could be ‘anywhere’, but they won’t, they’ll be where they think is the best place to be – and that is precisely where your thinking has to be. So again, it is a L2P issue.

Btw, I believe they had damage numbers visible in early testing/beta, but that was changed before release. The reason is obvious, it completely negates stealth, which might give you the free lootbags you’re so desire, but it is hardly ‘balancing’.

I appreciate your comment but you are at the wrong post. I believe your reply fits better in the " There is no counter to stealth" post.

In case you missed it, this is the “Suggestions for balancing Stealth” post.

ShakeyStorm.7180:

frans.8092:

ShakeyStorm.7180:

frans.8092:

You don’t need visual clues, you need to get into their mind. I find it easier to hit my own c&d on thieves in stealth then on most non-thief players.

Not all can think like a thief.

That is something you can learn, hence why it really is a learn-to-play issue.

Anyone in stealth can be anywhere. Not a L2P issue.

They could be ‘anywhere’, but they won’t, they’ll be where they think is the best place to be – and that is precisely where your thinking has to be. So again, it is a L2P issue.

Btw, I believe they had damage numbers visible in early testing/beta, but that was changed before release. The reason is obvious, it completely negates stealth, which might give you the free lootbags you’re so desire, but it is hardly ‘balancing’.

I appreciate your comment but you are at the wrong post. I believe your reply fits better in the " There is no counter to stealth" post.

In case you missed it, this is the “Suggestions for balancing Stealth” post.

Is that the level at which you discuss? ‘’Shoo shoo,’‘, you say, ’’go away, I don’t like what you say’’

Look, even if your suggestions where implemented it would not help you, because, you see, people would just switch professions and continue to beat you with those. It’s not stealth that is your problem, but your unwillingness to learn and adapt.

frans.8092:

That is something you can learn, hence why it really is a learn-to-play issue.

You can not really 100% believe this right? That would mean you are either pretty bad, or inexperienced when it comes to fighting really good thieves.

I have no problem with stealth, mainly because it is fun to play with on my thief (I main a warrior).

But stealth, in the hands of not an average, but a good player, has nothing to do with l2p on his targets behalf. Nay, it becomes completely broken in capable hands.

What I am trying to say is that you can say l2p all you want, but when it comes down to facing the better thieves, stealth is an OP mechanic.

The fact that thieves, apart from said OP mechanic, are a rather mediocre class at best, only means that thieves with less skill will get facepalmed by the likes of you and me.

Why not change the stealth and revealed time?

(make both longer)

ShakeyStorm.7180:

1. On weapon hit, avatar blurs before going back into stealth.
2. On weapon hit, damage appears where avatar in stealth was hit.
3. Hit points reset timer will not start while in stealth.

No trolling please. Just serious comments.

First, it is not even established that stealth needs balancing.

But I will address your suggestions anyway.

1. I understand your idea behind that. However, we should discuss if that doesn’t leave the cloaked one too vulnerable. If something like that would be implemented, than I would see the need for a trait, that circumvents this effect, maybe on the master or grandmaster level, at least for thieves. However, that could seriously hurt build diversity.
2. Why? This is the same as the 1st effect. Or do you need to see how much damage you dealt?
3. Well, as long as the cloaked player is still in combat with you, it won’t anyway. Why shouldn’t it restart when you both are not in combat any more?

If you want to balance stealth then remove the fact that targetting skills continue to follow the target even when she as gonne into stealth.

That’s really the only balance that is needed actually.

ShakeyStorm.7180:

1. On weapon hit, avatar blurs before going back into stealth.
2. On weapon hit, damage appears where avatar in stealth was hit.
3. Hit points reset timer will not start while in stealth.

No trolling please. Just serious comments.

1. many auto attack weapon skills already do that. instead of the thief blurring, your skill combo tells you exactly when you whack the thief Oo how long do you want this blur to last?
2. kinda overlaps with the first one…
3. sure why not. i don’t actually remember being able to run all the way to reset before my stealth ends anyways Oo

If a thief hits/gets evaded/gets blocked stealth should break. It raises the skillcap without breaking the profession.

If I miss a skill it doesn’t get refreshed instantly until I land it.

That’ll stop the HS from black powder and hit whilst still staying in stealth nonsense.

Or make backstab use initiative.

phaeris.7604:

If a thief hits/gets evaded/gets blocked stealth should break. It raises the skillcap without breaking the profession.

Nah, that wouldn’t break the profession at all. I mean, a single evade to waste 9 of the thief’s iniative (BP + HS) sounds perfectly balanced. Or a block, blind or anything of the sort. And it’s not like you can AoE at the same time when having aegis up or after having blinded the thief, meaning you’ll be doing good damage while the thief’s burst is reduced to literally zero.

Need more suggestions to properly nerf this broken profession, please.

Stealth should have never given so many buffs beyond its primary use (invisibility). PU is the big headline trait which people hate on, but thieves are just as bad with cleansing, regen, blinding, increase speed and initiative gain all being added extras they can get out of stealth.

It just shouldnt do so many things / everything for the player using it. Many other games give stealth classes debuffs while in stealth, such as reduced movement speed, increased incoming damage, or in GW2 maybe reduce initiative gain, etc, which balances it out and make it so going stealth isnt the answer to every problem the class has, which in the case of thieves it is in GW2.

To me, going down that route would have been the best option.. though its a bit late without a total rework of the SA traitline on thieves, as well as balancing / buffing them in general to make up for the lose of all the advantages stealth can currently give. But that will never happen so.. yeah.

phaeris.7604:

If a thief hits/gets evaded/gets blocked stealth should break. It raises the skillcap without breaking the profession.

If I miss a skill it doesn’t get refreshed instantly until I land it.

That’ll stop the HS from black powder and hit whilst still staying in stealth nonsense.

Or make backstab use initiative.

This is a straight nerf, it isn’t introducing counterplay and it doesn’t impact skill cap at all.

Straight nerfing classes doesn’t mean it raised their skill cap.

Making stealth attacks cost initiative is a bad move, Aegis and Blinds have to be cleared somehow, while in stealth the only costless skill available is the stealth attacks.

phaeris.7604:

If a thief hits/gets evaded/gets blocked stealth should break. It raises the skillcap without breaking the profession.

If I miss a skill it doesn’t get refreshed instantly until I land it.

That’ll stop the HS from black powder and hit whilst still staying in stealth nonsense.

Or make backstab use initiative.

No it would break the profession because thief is sub par when it comes to dueling alreayd it main strength is it ability to disengage and dps down targets when its not being focused on.

phaeris.7604:

If a thief hits/gets evaded/gets blocked stealth should break. It raises the skillcap without breaking the profession.

If I miss a skill it doesn’t get refreshed instantly until I land it.

That’ll stop the HS from black powder and hit whilst still staying in stealth nonsense.

Or make backstab use initiative.

This post is a nonsence…Totally…

Like I said, raises the skill cap.

Judging from the posts it’s already begun to filter out the bad players.

Some of you speak of initiative as though it never returns once you use it. At the moment what the thief class has isn’t stealth. It’s invisibility.

Thief sub par at duelling? I wouldn’t lump in your abilities with the general thief population.

You just want to be able to spam backstab until it hits, which is pretty easy considering the massive backstab zone but if the guy dodges at the right time or blows an ability to prevent this you don’t want to be penalised. Invisibility will always grant the user the biggest advantage, but you want it with no trade off.

I still don’t see anyone explaining why stealth should remain on having your attack blocked/evaded etc. You ****ed up your timing, so pay the price. As I said, if I use a knockdown and the guy has stability on it’s my stupidity, I don’t get to have another go a few seconds later.

Cufufalating.8479:

Stealth should have never given so many buffs beyond its primary use (invisibility). PU is the big headline trait which people hate on, but thieves are just as bad with cleansing, regen, blinding, increase speed and initiative gain all being added extras they can get out of stealth.

It just shouldnt do so many things / everything for the player using it. Many other games give stealth classes debuffs while in stealth, such as reduced movement speed, increased incoming damage, or in GW2 maybe reduce initiative gain, etc, which balances it out and make it so going stealth isnt the answer to every problem the class has, which in the case of thieves it is in GW2.

To me, going down that route would have been the best option.. though its a bit late without a total rework of the SA traitline on thieves, as well as balancing / buffing them in general to make up for the lose of all the advantages stealth can currently give. But that will never happen so.. yeah.

I think you’ve hit on it. I couldn’t have said it better.

My solution would be to do exactly what your last paragraph says.

GW2 treats stealth pretty much the opposite of what it shuold be. But the devs obviously like it that way because the new traits they intorduced gave even more power to stealth.

The invisibility aspect is bad enough. But I could deal with it if it was meant to allow a character to be sneaky, fine. But then to be sneaky and have it increase your damage as well? No, its just too much.

I know Anet is not going to redesign it so my suggestion would be:

Get rid of the bonuses to attack damage from stealth would be the best thing to do. And if you need to increase a thiefs defense to compensate then do that too.

phaeris.7604:

Like I said, raises the skill cap.

It just allow anyone to sit in his aoe and wait for the thief to appear…Or to spam the wind and see the thief appear. Just break thief stealth.

phaeris.7604:

Invisibility will always grant the user the biggest advantage, but you want it with no trade off.

Sure having medium armor, a low pool of hp, a very poor sustain for condition and the need to place yourself better than the other professions…Sure there is no trade off

phaeris.7604:

I still don’t see anyone explaining why stealth should remain on having your attack blocked/evaded etc.

And what can we do against for example a guardien that have his aegis at the start of the fight, and then can put another 2 aegis when you go into stealth? Lose initiative? yes initiative do regenerate but the rate is not really high compared to the loss…we can’t begin a fight having waisted 2 stealth to remove all the aegis a guardian have.

phaeris.7604:

Judging from the posts it’s already begun to filter out the bad players.

What you are saying is stupid and show a total misunderstanding of what you have to sacrifice to kill someone as a thief.

You are the bad player here.

shinigamith.7120:

And what can we do against for example a guardien that have his aegis at the start of the fight, and then can put another 2 aegis when you go into stealth? Lose initiative? yes initiative do regenerate but the rate is not really high compared to the loss…we can’t begin a fight having waisted 2 stealth to remove all the aegis a guardian have.

What that sounds like is that you don’t want them to have counters to stealthed attacks. Isn’t the supposed counter play to dodge/block? Then it sounds like you want to just take that away from a Guardian who uses his virtue, which is a high cooldown, when he wants to counter play an incoming stealthed attack while you have no downside to it since you want to be able to spam attacks until its gone. So if breaking stealth is too much then perhaps making BS or other stealthed attacks cost more initiative should be a decent anti-spam compromise?

I don’t have any problems with thieves 1v1 tbh.

I played a glass d/d thief for a year and the survivability due to stealth was insane.

You’re already crying about aegis removals, something which every class fighting guardians has to contend with without using stealth. A good player would have already worked out a way to deal with it, you just want to be able to spam one key whilst sitting in stealth.

Poor condition sustain? Shadows embrace is just ridiculously good for an adept. I wish my engi had such ‘terrible’ condition sustain.

One of the above ideas sounds interesting, because ultimately that is how the Spy in TF2 works. So here’s what I’d do:

• On taking damage, a stealthed character is shown as a blurred outline for ~0,5 second. Note that it has to be damage.
• All stealth durations increased by 1-2 seconds each.
• While stealthed, due to being so difficult to see, it is not possible to receive a critical hit.

This would create a hard-counter in the sense that AEs can be used to “search” for stealthers, and once hit once it becomes easy to keep them under attack to keep revealing them.

On the other hand, their stealth offers a non-trivial defence of itself.

Additional traits for Thieves:

Calm Assassin – GM trait
Never get shown when receiving damage while stealthed. However, movement will reveal you if you don’t stop often enough.
Effectively, you have 10 charges of an effect which drains one per human step, and rebuilds about one per time such an animation would take while you’re standing still. Compare the Cloak&Dagger in TF2.

Stealth Mastery – Master Trait
Become more adept at staying hidden, halving the time you get shown when taking damage an reducing Revealed-duration.

Additional trait for Mesmers:

Divert Attention – Master Trait
Instead of the normal effect of getting hit when stealthed, you create an outline running off in the wrong direction each time you’re hit, though never more often than once every 0,5 seconds. You get shown normally if you get hit more often than that.

ReesesPBC.4603:

Then it sounds like you want to just take that away from a Guardian who uses his virtue, which is a high cooldown, when he wants to counter play an incoming stealthed attack

Guardian have a passive aegis…So even if i surprise him, if the fact of blocking a stealthed attack revealed me he would have a passive hard counter to 100% of the backstab build and i could do NOTHING for it…simply nothing.

ReesesPBC.4603:

you have no downside to it since you want to be able to spam attacks until its gone.

Yeah because it’s well known that everyone let you spam without using is AoE or Attaking the wind while turning around.

ReesesPBC.4603:

So if breaking stealth is too much then perhaps making BS or other stealthed attacks cost more initiative should be a decent anti-spam compromise?

I already have to position myself, to use initiative to be stealthed, by preference to be undetected by you before begining the fight and i have NO RIGHT TO MISTAKE.
And now i have to waste more initiative?

At this point i guess you don’t play thief and you don’t really know what you are saying by asking it.

I play thief enough to know that the “back” is hardly anything you need to try hard for positioning unless you’re crippled or chilled since the hit area is more than just that marginal area you think it is, yet that’s not the point. The point is you’re advocating a play style without punishment for the user while I’m trying to compromise on both sides since I can actually see it that way and not through your tunnel vision goggles. And what AOE would a guard have? WW? Symbols? In that instance if he does have aegis up and uses WW/symbols why would you even waste your stealth then going at him, you’d just regen up your initiative and attack again once the animation is over or switch to ranged and kite him.

Since there are lot of stupidity here i’m not even gonna try to argue more that’s not even usefull

Just:

>>And what AOE would a guard have

mmmmmh Auto attacks? you know the thing that destroy a thief because they have no armor or hp!

shinigamith.7120:

Guardian have a passive aegis…So even if i surprise him, if the fact of blocking a stealthed attack revealed me he would have a passive hard counter to 100% of the backstab build and i could do NOTHING for it…simply nothing.

just as any other class can’t do anything against your backstab from stealth … simply nothing.

shinigamith.7120:

Since there are lot of stupidity here i’m not even gonna try to argue more that’s not even usefull

Just:

>>And what AOE would a guard have

mmmmmh Auto attacks? you know the thing that destroy a thief because they have no armor or hp!

You aren’t going to argue, which is a cop-out, because you have no argument. Once again if the guard has aegis up and you are in stealth and he is “counter-playing” by blindly swinging his sword, i’ll ask again, why would you waste your stealth going up and engaging him? Maybe you should go watch some of Yishi’s videos then?

I will never understand why people think blocking/evading should have the added benefit of taking a thief out of stealth. Blocking/evading doesn’t take a necro out of DS or Lich Mode. It doesn’t take Eles out of fire mode, and it doesn’t cause Engineers to drop their kits. So why should it take a thief out of stealth mode?

You pressed the block button. You don’t have to do it in a special mode, and you don’t even have to go be facing your opponent. You pressed block, and basically you’ve become immune to almost everything a thief can throw at you. And yet people don’t think this is enough? You want the block to take the thief out of stealth as well?

Shinjo.6092:

I will never understand why people think blocking/evading should have the added benefit of taking a thief out of stealth. Blocking/evading doesn’t take a necro out of DS or Lich Mode. It doesn’t take Eles out of fire mode, and it doesn’t cause Engineers to drop their kits. So why should it take a thief out of stealth mode?

You pressed the block button. You don’t have to do it in a special mode, and you don’t even have to go be facing your opponent. You pressed block, and basically you’ve become immune to almost everything a thief can throw at you. And yet people don’t think this is enough? You want the block to take the thief out of stealth as well?

I think a more accurate comparison would be blind although it’s a debuff. Attacking takes it away and so does attacking aegis take it away. If that is too much or gamebreaking than what would the compromise be for both sides? Because having aegis/block negated by simply continuing to attack under stealth to get a specialized skill, backstab, off should have a draw back if you are kept in stealth (or want to be as you put it). Since you are on the thief side how about arguing for the defender’s and seeing it from their point of view? So you don’t want to be revealed then how about a 1 initiative cost per backstab? If you tried 3 times during stealth then it would have already regened the initiative spent so it’s a break even point.

Shinjo.6092:

Blocking/evading doesn’t take a necro out of DS or Lich Mode. It doesn’t take Eles out of fire mode, and it doesn’t cause Engineers to drop their kits. So why should it take a thief out of stealth mode?

dat logic… this is the most hilarious argument I’ve ever read

Thief attacks: gets out of stealth, because attacking and staying in stealth would be “kinda” OP. Stealth is temporary and can be broken
Ele attacks: why the heck should he leave his attunement? It’s a permanent state that can’t be removed by anything

just imagine the scenario in real life a thief sneaks up from the shadows an leaps at the guardian. He manages to block the attack but still can’t see the thief … lulz

making attacks out of stealth unblockable for example would be logical design, even balanced I guess. But not revealing a thief when his attack is avoided by blocks or whatever is just stupid

I have always felt that stealth should mean completely invisible when standing still, and very slightly visible/opaque when moving (like a human figure that is see through, slightly distorting/blurring the background within the form of the figure).

I think the 2 biggest problems people have with stealth is guessing where to attack in the air when the opponent is stealth, and not being able to more reliably position oneself to avoid a thieves’ backstab. I believe this fix could help enough, without having to touch stealth skills or destroying the stealth mechanic as a whole.

Zatoichi.1049:

I have always felt that stealth should mean completely invisible when standing still, and very slightly visible/opaque when moving (like a human figure that is see through, slightly distorting/blurring the background within the form of the figure).

I think the 2 biggest problems people have with stealth is guessing where to attack in the air when the opponent is stealth, and not being able to more reliably position oneself to avoid a thieves’ backstab. I believe this fix could help enough, without having to touch stealth skills or destroying the stealth mechanic as a whole.

imo, all direct damage should be visible like normal when you hit a stealthed target and show up in combat log, I wanna see how this works out.

Besides that I find the minor trait Meld in Shadows quite messed up and creates extended periods of stealth + cleansing of 4 conditions in 8 seconds with shadow’s embrace, personally I would like to see meld in shadows with a 4sec icd. Same goes for prismatic understanding. After several weeks playing Deadly Arts, I tried to use the small stealth durations I had at my disposal for best effect, after that I felt Shadow Arts allowed me to play really sloppy.

If blocks and evades took thieves out of stealth, blocks and evades would be OP, thieves would have no way to counter passive 5y6m10d6h20m32s aegis from stealth.

some ideas to balance stealth make stealth counterable/easier to deal with (just a short list of stuff that I read here, or that came to my mind):

• make stealthed players visible for a short amount of time when damaged (“blur”)
• conditions and/or direct damage break it completely
• less radical version from second suggestion: add more counters in addition to “revealed” like for example thiefes can’t stealth when standing in fire-fields or get revealed when standing in fire-fields ore are burning, etc. (propably add a GM-trait that makes them “immune” to fire-fields)
• make stealth a buff that reduces incomming AoE-damage by ~90% and makes the player untargetable; still half visible though as long as the player is infight and CC can be also applied
• add an inner CD of ~20s (easiest solution)
• add a DR (~20s until reset; good solution in my opinion but is likely to be regarded as too complicated for players to understand by Anet)
• reduce the overall acces to stealth (e.g. remove combo finishers)
• make stealth only available when not in combat and infight just via combo-finishers and some long CD-abilities
• remove stealth by any action of the player except movement-keys and dodges (also by movement-abilites like short-bow and similar spells that deal no damage)
• stealthed players can see each other
• lower the duration of stealth or adjust corresponding traits
• add a ~1s animation of becoming invisible (duration-timer starts not before totally invisible)

given numbers/durations are open for discussion of course and would have to be tested

anyways: opinions?

ReesesPBC.4603:

Shinjo.6092:

I will never understand why people think blocking/evading should have the added benefit of taking a thief out of stealth. Blocking/evading doesn’t take a necro out of DS or Lich Mode. It doesn’t take Eles out of fire mode, and it doesn’t cause Engineers to drop their kits. So why should it take a thief out of stealth mode?

You pressed the block button. You don’t have to do it in a special mode, and you don’t even have to go be facing your opponent. You pressed block, and basically you’ve become immune to almost everything a thief can throw at you. And yet people don’t think this is enough? You want the block to take the thief out of stealth as well?

I think a more accurate comparison would be blind although it’s a debuff. Attacking takes it away and so does attacking aegis take it away. If that is too much or gamebreaking than what would the compromise be for both sides? Because having aegis/block negated by simply continuing to attack under stealth to get a specialized skill, backstab, off should have a draw back if you are kept in stealth (or want to be as you put it). Since you are on the thief side how about arguing for the defender’s and seeing it from their point of view? So you don’t want to be revealed then how about a 1 initiative cost per backstab? If you tried 3 times during stealth then it would have already regened the initiative spent so it’s a break even point.

Look at it from a thief’s perspective.

All other professions get to remove blind and aegis for free with auto attacks. Thief has to use a cool down or 5+ initiative to enter stealth then on top of that they have to spam 1 initiative per second in order to land a stealth attack.

That’s extremely expensive whereas it’s free for everyone else.

Shockwave.1230:

ReesesPBC.4603:

Shinjo.6092:

I will never understand why people think blocking/evading should have the added benefit of taking a thief out of stealth. Blocking/evading doesn’t take a necro out of DS or Lich Mode. It doesn’t take Eles out of fire mode, and it doesn’t cause Engineers to drop their kits. So why should it take a thief out of stealth mode?

You pressed the block button. You don’t have to do it in a special mode, and you don’t even have to go be facing your opponent. You pressed block, and basically you’ve become immune to almost everything a thief can throw at you. And yet people don’t think this is enough? You want the block to take the thief out of stealth as well?

I think a more accurate comparison would be blind although it’s a debuff. Attacking takes it away and so does attacking aegis take it away. If that is too much or gamebreaking than what would the compromise be for both sides? Because having aegis/block negated by simply continuing to attack under stealth to get a specialized skill, backstab, off should have a draw back if you are kept in stealth (or want to be as you put it). Since you are on the thief side how about arguing for the defender’s and seeing it from their point of view? So you don’t want to be revealed then how about a 1 initiative cost per backstab? If you tried 3 times during stealth then it would have already regened the initiative spent so it’s a break even point.

Look at it from a thief’s perspective.

All other professions get to remove blind and aegis for free with auto attacks. Thief has to use a cool down or 5+ initiative to enter stealth then on top of that they have to spam 1 initiative per second in order to land a stealth attack.

That’s extremely expensive whereas it’s free for everyone else.

I would agree with that except from the opposite perspective not all classes can attack from stealth so easily, outside of having help from a thief/mesmer. And to add to that their attacks aren’t specialized in stealth either. And even further that thieves don’t have to be in stealth to remove aegis just like other classes.

ReesesPBC.4603:

I would agree with that except from the opposite perspective not all classes can attack from stealth so easily, outside of having help from a thief/mesmer. And to add to that their attacks aren’t specialized in stealth either. And even further that thieves don’t have to be in stealth to remove aegis just like other classes.

As with your discussion with shinigamith.7120, I think the point you’re missing is what happens when a thief is already in stealth. Stealth doesn’t come for free; you either have to blow half your initiative pool or a utility on long cd. And continuing Shockwave.1230’s point, do you think it’s fair to have to continue to spend initiative in order to remove blind/aegis when every other class gets it for free, after making that sacrifice? You’re right, other classes don’t have specialized attacks in stealth. But that only makes his point stronger because you end up losing a lot more than the other classes for coming out of stealth.

Test post, forum seems broken and determined to destroy the more involved replies.
PS, I refuse to waste the energy to rewrite my reply, sorry guys, you’re not that important.

Test post
15 chars

Cygnus.6903:

frans.8092:

That is something you can learn, hence why it really is a learn-to-play issue.

You can not really 100% believe this right? That would mean you are either pretty bad, or inexperienced when it comes to fighting really good thieves.

Uhm, are you seriously suggesting that it’s not possible to learn to think like a thief?

Shinjo.6092:

ReesesPBC.4603:

I would agree with that except from the opposite perspective not all classes can attack from stealth so easily, outside of having help from a thief/mesmer. And to add to that their attacks aren’t specialized in stealth either. And even further that thieves don’t have to be in stealth to remove aegis just like other classes.

As with your discussion with shinigamith.7120, I think the point you’re missing is what happens when a thief is already in stealth. Stealth doesn’t come for free; you either have to blow half your initiative pool or a utility on long cd. And continuing Shockwave.1230’s point, do you think it’s fair to have to continue to spend initiative in order to remove blind/aegis when every other class gets it for free, after making that sacrifice? You’re right, other classes don’t have specialized attacks in stealth. But that only makes his point stronger because you end up losing a lot more than the other classes for coming out of stealth.

Yes, that’s what I’m advocating which is; when people want to knowingly counter play stealth with blocks, or worse aegis, that they shouldn’t be punished for doing so.

And for when the thief is already in stealth I do support the suggestion that it should cost at least 1 initiative per backstab. This can be altered to occur only when they are blocked or missed but if there is no aegis or block up then the BS can be free as usual. The suggestion is to prevent spam and encourage more skillful play as others have mentioned. If a thief knows there’s aegis or blocks up they can wait and regen their initiative (1 per 3/4s if i’m not mistaken) before initiating again as compared to the person who is blocking or put up aegis will be coming out much more behind in terms of skill CD. For example: engineer gear shield block is a 20s (untraited AFAIK) CD vs a thief who CnD’d would have a net loss of 2-3 initiative if they just wait it out. So still the person blocking comes out behind in that situation.

For the receiving end, it’s no fun playing as a guardian/etc to have put aegis up (72-90s CD) to prevent a BS when it can be stripped without consequence in stealth from that one attack, repeatedly.

PS whatever that weird forum error is, is really messing up replying.

Gorni.1764:

dat logic… this is the most hilarious argument I’ve ever read

Thief attacks: gets out of stealth, because attacking and staying in stealth would be “kinda” OP. Stealth is temporary and can be broken
Ele attacks: why the heck should he leave his attunement? It’s a permanent state that can’t be removed by anything

just imagine the scenario in real life a thief sneaks up from the shadows an leaps at the guardian. He manages to block the attack but still can’t see the thief … lulz

making attacks out of stealth unblockable for example would be logical design, even balanced I guess. But not revealing a thief when his attack is avoided by blocks or whatever is just stupid

When it comes to the hilarity of an argument, I think yours tops mine for trying to make the comparison between a thief in the game and a thief in real life.

Blocks were designed to negate the damage that was blocked, and it does that for backstab. It shouldn’t force the thief into another mode, just like it doesn’t force an ele into another mode, or a necro out of ds/lich.

ReesesPBC.4603:

Shinjo.6092:

ReesesPBC.4603:

I would agree with that except from the opposite perspective not all classes can attack from stealth so easily, outside of having help from a thief/mesmer. And to add to that their attacks aren’t specialized in stealth either. And even further that thieves don’t have to be in stealth to remove aegis just like other classes.

As with your discussion with shinigamith.7120, I think the point you’re missing is what happens when a thief is already in stealth. Stealth doesn’t come for free; you either have to blow half your initiative pool or a utility on long cd. And continuing Shockwave.1230’s point, do you think it’s fair to have to continue to spend initiative in order to remove blind/aegis when every other class gets it for free, after making that sacrifice? You’re right, other classes don’t have specialized attacks in stealth. But that only makes his point stronger because you end up losing a lot more than the other classes for coming out of stealth.

Yes, that’s what I’m advocating which is; when people want to knowingly counter play stealth with blocks, or worse aegis, that they shouldn’t be punished for doing so.

And for when the thief is already in stealth I do support the suggestion that it should cost at least 1 initiative per backstab. This can be altered to occur only when they are blocked or missed but if there is no aegis or block up then the BS can be free as usual. The suggestion is to prevent spam and encourage more skillful play as others have mentioned. If a thief knows there’s aegis or blocks up they can wait and regen their initiative (1 per 3/4s if i’m not mistaken) before initiating again as compared to the person who is blocking or put up aegis will be coming out much more behind in terms of skill CD. For example: engineer gear shield block is a 20s (untraited AFAIK) CD vs a thief who CnD’d would have a net loss of 2-3 initiative if they just wait it out. So still the person blocking comes out behind in that situation.

For the receiving end, it’s no fun playing as a guardian/etc to have put aegis up (72-90s CD) to prevent a BS when it can be stripped without consequence in stealth from that one attack, repeatedly.

PS whatever that weird forum error is, is really messing up replying.

The suggestion to prevent spamming in stealth is counter intuitive, the only way to counter aegis, blinds, and blocks is to spam them away regardless of whether or not you are in stealth.

The suggestion is still to punish thieves for using stealth whereas every other prof gets to deal with these things for free, even if they are in stealth.

Shockwave.1230:

ReesesPBC.4603:

Shinjo.6092:

ReesesPBC.4603:

I would agree with that except from the opposite perspective not all classes can attack from stealth so easily, outside of having help from a thief/mesmer. And to add to that their attacks aren’t specialized in stealth either. And even further that thieves don’t have to be in stealth to remove aegis just like other classes.

As with your discussion with shinigamith.7120, I think the point you’re missing is what happens when a thief is already in stealth. Stealth doesn’t come for free; you either have to blow half your initiative pool or a utility on long cd. And continuing Shockwave.1230’s point, do you think it’s fair to have to continue to spend initiative in order to remove blind/aegis when every other class gets it for free, after making that sacrifice? You’re right, other classes don’t have specialized attacks in stealth. But that only makes his point stronger because you end up losing a lot more than the other classes for coming out of stealth.

Yes, that’s what I’m advocating which is; when people want to knowingly counter play stealth with blocks, or worse aegis, that they shouldn’t be punished for doing so.

And for when the thief is already in stealth I do support the suggestion that it should cost at least 1 initiative per backstab. This can be altered to occur only when they are blocked or missed but if there is no aegis or block up then the BS can be free as usual. The suggestion is to prevent spam and encourage more skillful play as others have mentioned. If a thief knows there’s aegis or blocks up they can wait and regen their initiative (1 per 3/4s if i’m not mistaken) before initiating again as compared to the person who is blocking or put up aegis will be coming out much more behind in terms of skill CD. For example: engineer gear shield block is a 20s (untraited AFAIK) CD vs a thief who CnD’d would have a net loss of 2-3 initiative if they just wait it out. So still the person blocking comes out behind in that situation.

For the receiving end, it’s no fun playing as a guardian/etc to have put aegis up (72-90s CD) to prevent a BS when it can be stripped without consequence in stealth from that one attack, repeatedly.

PS whatever that weird forum error is, is really messing up replying.

The suggestion to prevent spamming in stealth is counter intuitive, the only way to counter aegis, blinds, and blocks is to spam them away regardless of whether or not you are in stealth.

The suggestion is still to punish thieves for using stealth whereas every other prof gets to deal with these things for free, even if they are in stealth.

The suggestions is only for backstab and block/aegis, other skills are questionable.

Yet that would mean that blocking and aegis themselves are also counter intuitive if they are meant to block damage but can’t because of the above mentioned issues. Meaning to say, why block at all and waste CD and opportunity when it won’t matter in the end since you’ll still end up getting hit by what you were trying to block in the first place without consequence to the attacker?

ReesesPBC.4603:

Yes, that’s what I’m advocating which is; when people want to knowingly counter play stealth with blocks, or worse aegis, that they shouldn’t be punished for doing so.

They’re not punished. You still negated the attack that was blocked. On top of that, you now know exactly where the thief is, which is an added bonus. You have to decide what play to make after that.

ReesesPBC.4603:

And for when the thief is already in stealth I do support the suggestion that it should cost at least 1 initiative per backstab. This can be altered to occur only when they are blocked or missed but if there is no aegis or block up then the BS can be free as usual. The suggestion is to prevent spam and encourage more skillful play as others have mentioned. If a thief knows there’s aegis or blocks up they can wait and regen their initiative (1 per 3/4s if i’m not mistaken) before initiating again as compared to the person who is blocking or put up aegis will be coming out much more behind in terms of skill CD. For example: engineer gear shield block is a 20s (untraited AFAIK) CD vs a thief who CnD’d would have a net loss of 2-3 initiative if they just wait it out. So still the person blocking comes out behind in that situation.

Initiative regens 1 per second, and the passive aegis on a guardian lasts 10 hours. Also, don’t forget that a thief cannot do any damage in stealth without coming out of stealth, while the other class gets to do whatever they want. It’s not as easy as you think trying to stick behind a person within that 4 second window of stealth while they’re wailing away and you’re waiting for their block/aegis to end. And if you attack, you have to wait the 3-4 seconds of revealed before you can go back into stealth again.

ReesesPBC.4603:

For the receiving end, it’s no fun playing as a guardian/etc to have put aegis up (72-90s CD) to prevent a BS when it can be stripped without consequence in stealth from that one attack, repeatedly.

Look at it this way. If thieves had an auto attack to strip the aegis, they would have done so. But bs takes the spot of their autoattack in stealth. It’s a free way to strip aegis, just like every single other class has.

Shinjo.6092:

They’re not punished. You still negated the attack that was blocked. On top of that, you now know exactly where the thief is, which is an added bonus. You have to decide what play to make after that.

I’ll have to disagree as I mentioned above the advantage is still to the stealthed attacker. The ease of repetition even after the initial stealth attack further compounds the situation.

Shinjo.6092:

Initiative regens 1 per second, and the passive aegis on a guardian lasts 10 hours. Also, don’t forget that a thief cannot do any damage in stealth without coming out of stealth, while the other class gets to do whatever they want. It’s not as easy as you think trying to stick behind a person within that 4 second window of stealth while they’re wailing away and you’re waiting for their block/aegis to end. And if you attack, you have to wait the 3-4 seconds of revealed before you can go back into stealth again.

In an effort to not bring individual player skill into the equation and keep focus, I won’t address the difficulty in landing a backstab properly as it could lead to a tangent. For aegis uptime, upon seeing a guard with it, it can easily be auto’d off prior to stealthing rendering the 10+ hour uptime meaningless. Also on the flip-side of waiting in stealth are the benefits of it as well such as condition removal, healing, and the advantage of absolutely knowing where your enemy is while they don’t. If you don’t attack and wait until stealth is off to auto said aegis/block then you won’t even activate the reveal debuff and as mentioned before the loss for the thief would be minimal while the investment to block or aegis up to the defender is more costly. I’ve seen many other thief roaming video’s where thieves use this tactic to further delay while their cool downs recharge and have used this myself. So yet again that would place the advantage for the thief by simply waiting instead of attacking instead of being an equal exchange given the counters just explained.

Shinjo.6092:

Look at it this way. If thieves had an auto attack to strip the aegis, they would have done so. But bs takes the spot of their autoattack in stealth. It’s a free way to strip aegis, just like every single other class has.

I think the misunderstanding here is that thieves do in fact have an auto to strip just like every other class, it’s just not in stealth. That auto can be used once outside of stealth and without a reveal debuff by simply waiting it out. The discrepancy is that not all classes have specialized stealth attacks that have bonuses inside of stealth which is the reason backstab is singled out, because it is singular.

Everyone is taking this the wrong way. You are talking about nerfing SA and it’s purpose to BUFF STEALTH not the other way around.
Since it seems that everyone here seem to have experience fighting thief using stealth not necessarily using SA, how long do they last out of stealth or how do they tank your burst or condi?
I’m surprised that no one talks about enhancing Trap and Trick skills or maybe making S/P or P/P more viable in pvp. That is where the unbalance in thief comes from when a certain build is WAY more popular than other one. Solution fix the UP then the true OP will show itself.
If someone chooses to go SA the tank trait line he should be able to tank it’s common sense. Any thief out there successfully hiting backstabe on D/D I have respect for you it is not easy, D/P uses so much initiative I don’t know where is the dmg coming from.
Think people think.