Guild Wars 2

imo, people just need to learn to play. Nobody was complaining about ele before this. Why now? Because they kill you? My main used to be ele but now it is Guard. I stopped playing ele because of kittened threads like this to nerf eles because people don’t want to learn how to play against them better. I haven’t had any issues fighting against eles so this must be a l2p issue bro.

Maybe we should nerf lag ,lag OP ,lag cost me a win again s/d thief when i solo roam with my staff .I was having fun until lag comin.

D/D elementalist is very vulnerable to conditions, even if using Ether Renewal. Every hybrid or condi build can kill him relatively easy.
They said that celestial amulet already had less raw stats, and was bad. Then anet increased more stats to make viable.

Sigil of Battle may be one of best way to some classes get might. i don’t agree with nerf is this sigil.

Signet of Restoration? Good luck against conditions!

Strength Runes? They says that this is the bunker and condi meta, then power build will have problems against bunker builds. If some d/d elementalist without Ether Renewal goes with Batle Sigil + Strength Runes, and fight against for example condi warrior, id think that this elementalist will be forced to disengage or pray for help.
For me strength runes also is fine, because some classes deals good with boons.

Deniara Devious.3948:

KrisHQ.4719:

Decrease the amount of Condition Damage received per Might stack from 35 to 15, while maintaining the same Power. This will nerf D/D Elementalists and Hambow Warriors, while still keeping Might-Stacking a viable strategy.
A lot of the dmg from D/D Elementalist comes from Poison and Burning, with with less condition dmg I believe it would balance D/D Ele.
This would also fix “Drakes Breath” a skill that is not OP in ANY way. Nerfing it would be ridiculous since it sucks without any kinds of condition damage.

Nerfing might stack condi power from 35 to 15 would really destroy some other builds e.g. the HGH pistol/pistol or pistol/shield engineer, which depends on getting huge stacks of mights with HGH grandmaster trait + elixirs (and does condi dmg).

Drake’s breath has a really high damage multiplier and long lasting burn considering its very low cool down. I know it is a channeled skill, but if you compare it with 100 blades it does more combined damage (assuming average stats, not full berserker vs glass armor, then 100 blades of course wins). Drake’s breath really benefits from having mixed stats. I know that since it is a channeled skill, it can be kited, just like 100 blades (you don’t need to explain me the basics).

Well. I remember when he HAD the HGH-Engi meta, and I recall it was pretty kittening horrible. Having might grant less condition damage than actual power will still benefit the game as a whole. Also, a lot of the might-stacking going on from Warriors and Eles will also benefit pure condition classes, having them benefit less still makes sense.

Before suggesting nerfs to the amulet itself (I agree that might stacking is a bit too high from sigils and runes combined), we should first understand why was the celestial amulet so important at adding build diversity to the ele class.

While some other classes can rely on strong active defenses without any investment on defensive stats, and therefore focusing on amulets like zerker and be top tier, or have enough condition damage to go high dps and still invest on defensive stats, the elementalists active defenses are heavily reliant on stats, especially because of healing (healing power + toughness), because of auras (which require us to get hit, therefore vitality + toughness) and boons (boon duration), and our damage is hybrid and hard to specialize at.

Celestial allows balanced/ offensive eles to be viable with the meta, without relying on instant bursting tricks and gimmicks to compensate for their ineffective defense. I would say that celestial pretty much goes hand in hand with the profession’s design. And then, battle sigil and runes of strength allow celestial eles to focus towards a path – in this case, of damage.

The problem with nerfing this, is that the current style for eles actually feels like what anet intended for it to feel like all this time: where “every” skill is meaningful and impactful. Where your active defenses are more than delaying your death for three seconds while being targetted while in zerker gear. Where your hybrid damage is actually meant to be useful and not detriment to your potential. Where your burst skills are actually meant to burst, without coming at the sacrifice of your defensive half of your skillset.

This makes it complicated for Anet to “just nerf” this amulet, because the risk of screwing the entire profession is high. Celestial Amulet is the second half of the elementalist class, design-wise, and toning down sigil of battle and rune of strength would make it really hard for eles to spec offensively without sacrificing the only amulet in the game that makes the entire profession feel “complete”.

Lettuce.2945:

nearlight.3064:

Lettuce.2945:

OP is a bit extreme with suggestions. You want to nerf profession skills just because it attunes well with the celestial amulet? Take away the celestial amulet, and those skills are not as effective. Don’t be stupid and even suggest that. It’ll nerf this class back into a point where people laugh at you for even playing one. Seriously, think before you speak.

Phantaram is one of the best Elementalists on the gw2 pvp scene. I think he knows more about what he’s talking about than you do.

Just because he streams and I don’t doesn’t mean he knows more. facepalms I’ve seen better eles, don’t get it twisted. His suggestions really does indicate that he doesn’t know the full extent of what he’s suggesting. And your supporting it indicates that you don’t as well. I didn’t disagree that it does need some kind of nerfing, but his suggestion would nerf it so hard, we would be ridiculed for playing an ele. I noticed you also pulled the same thing in the mesmer thread by referring to Helseth. Seems like twitch players = pro players, anyone else who doesn’t stream is invalid and there’s no better player out there. That’s your logic. Nice one there. facepalms

So tone down celestial amulet and work on battle sigil might stacking, and should balance ele. But I still think it’s a little stupid to rework a sigil just for one profession. Cele amulet on the other hand is just generally OP across various professions like warriors, eles, engis, spirit rangers, etc.

Several people in this thread have the gist of it. Good show here too, mate.

To the poster above, and to everybody else who thinks like him, I’m sorry to burst your bubble, but action speaks louder than words and even louder when it’s from MISTER NOBODY.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/introducing-the-roster-for-the-guild-wars-2-international-all-stars-tournament/

So telling him he’s wrong because YOU think he sucks… is really sad.

The problem is not so much celestial gear so much as it is the way the spec is used with it.

If the spec’s ability to stack might were somewhat reduced then all would be fine.

(im not saying it should be nerfed to uselessness, just have its ability to stack might reduced a little bit)

Nerfing celestial amulet will see eles removed from play again.
Nerfing battle sigil is going to hit other classes far harder than it will hit the ele.
The individual ele skills are not the root of this perceived problem.
Only thing I agree with is being able to spam Lightning Whip when stowed to proc signet of restoration heals. That needs fixing.

I think waiting until after the feature pack and seeing how the meta shifts is the best course of action.

Poplolita.2638:

To the poster above, and to everybody else who thinks like him, I’m sorry to burst your bubble, but action speaks louder than words and even louder when it’s from MISTER NOBODY.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/introducing-the-roster-for-the-guild-wars-2-international-all-stars-tournament/

So telling him he’s wrong because YOU think he sucks… is really sad.

Who said they think he sucks? You are fanboying it up right now.

He could be the best PvPer in the game, but that gives him no more credibility than I to speak on balance, and being engrossed in SPvP gives him less credibility to speak than someone who spends equal time in all parts of the game.

I am saying based on his suggestions, he seems out of touch or personally pushing an agenda. You may stop defending him now, he has a keyboard.

Mbelch.9028:

Poplolita.2638:

To the poster above, and to everybody else who thinks like him, I’m sorry to burst your bubble, but action speaks louder than words and even louder when it’s from MISTER NOBODY.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/introducing-the-roster-for-the-guild-wars-2-international-all-stars-tournament/

So telling him he’s wrong because YOU think he sucks… is really sad.

Who said they think he sucks? You are fanboying it up right now.

He could be the best PvPer in the game, but that gives him no more credibility than I to speak on balance, and being engrossed in SPvP gives him less credibility to speak than someone who spends equal time in all parts of the game.

I am saying based on his suggestions, he seems out of touch or personally pushing an agenda. You may stop defending him now, he has a keyboard.

Are you seriously telling me that your opinion which for all we know can be a pve heroes point of view holds the same weight as a player that consistently plays at the highest level of pvp who also happen to main said class of the discussion?..and to say someone like him is out of touch when he knows ALOT more than you and i do would usually be regarded as offensive. Thats not to say you can’t voice your opinion but don’t expect everyone to value it as much and to tell us that we should.

Not to mention it isn’t just him that thinks way, many other top players or just pvpers in general shares the same opinion on that D/D ele and current warrior build whether hambow or axebow is too strong. If you look at the current meta, dagger ele build rivals any of the top tier warrior builds and we all know warrior is about to get nerfed and for good reasons, what makes you think ele will not just shoot up to S tier if they aren’t nerfed?

What I find amusing is that people think you have to either A.) Be ranked or B.) Be in weekly tournaments or ToL or all stars to be even considered to have weight to your words. I’ve seen better players in their respective professions in dueling servers, and such. Some players prefer to hang around the casino, dueling servers rather than queue up. And some people just don’t have the hardware to handle streaming, like me.

And I’ve seen so called top players get rekt in 1 v 1 dueling casino servers 3-0 without any trouble. I’ve also beaten plenty of ranked players without breaking a sweat. Just because you are known doesn’t mean you are the best. It’s just a popularity contest, nothing more. And twitch certainly helps with branding themselves as the “best” pvper. So no, your argument is invalid. Because I’ve seen said players get rekt easily by better and unknown (even unranked) players. I ask you, no, I implore you to get a mind of your own instead of fan boying this thread up to the point where it borders on insanity….And think for yourself when thinking about balancing this class. I mean seriously, really think about what he’s suggesting and how it’ll hit the class hard if everything he mentioned was nerfed.

And I can vouch for Mbelch. He did run a casino server that was very successful and has beaten “all-stars” players, even his friend did as well. So nope, he isn’t a pve hero. The question is, are you?

I don’t really regard the ability of players to duel in 1v1 situations to be indicative of their skill, given that everything in the game (PvE, WvW, SPvP) is about your ability to team-fight well. If we accepted that 1v1 capability shows how good of a player you are, then PU Mesmers must be the best players in this game :P

Oh? What about 1 v X :P? But the point is…If someone beats the “all-star” players at their OWN professions with the SAME profession consistently…Doesn’t that mean that the player who won has better awareness of their own professions? Hmm? Hmmm?

And the other point is…This is mainly a BALANCE issue. If everything that was a suggested nerf by the OP was carried out…It would render the ele back to its laughable state. For example, the OP suggests a nerf to drake’s breath. But the reason why it’s lethal is because of the amulet and how easily we can might stack. Drake’s breath with zerker amulet is decent but not crazy OP. He’s not factoring in how drake’s breath can be affected by the rune/amulet/sigil and is calling for a direct nerf to the skill itself. The skill itself is fine, the rune/amulet/sigil set up attuned with the skill is not though.

Lifestealer.4910:

Mbelch.9028:

Poplolita.2638:

To the poster above, and to everybody else who thinks like him, I’m sorry to burst your bubble, but action speaks louder than words and even louder when it’s from MISTER NOBODY.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/introducing-the-roster-for-the-guild-wars-2-international-all-stars-tournament/

So telling him he’s wrong because YOU think he sucks… is really sad.

Who said they think he sucks? You are fanboying it up right now.

He could be the best PvPer in the game, but that gives him no more credibility than I to speak on balance, and being engrossed in SPvP gives him less credibility to speak than someone who spends equal time in all parts of the game.

I am saying based on his suggestions, he seems out of touch or personally pushing an agenda. You may stop defending him now, he has a keyboard.

Are you seriously telling me that your opinion which for all we know can be a pve heroes point of view holds the same weight as a player that consistently plays at the highest level of pvp who also happen to main said class of the discussion?..and to say someone like him is out of touch when he knows ALOT more than you and i do would usually be regarded as offensive. Thats not to say you can’t voice your opinion but don’t expect everyone to value it as much and to tell us that we should.

Not to mention it isn’t just him that thinks way, many other top players or just pvpers in general shares the same opinion on that D/D ele and current warrior build whether hambow or axebow is too strong. If you look at the current meta, dagger ele build rivals any of the top tier warrior builds and we all know warrior is about to get nerfed and for good reasons, what makes you think ele will not just shoot up to S tier if they aren’t nerfed?

I’m honestly telling you I don’t care how you regard my own opinions. I know when I say I’m speaking objectively, I am writing what is best for the balance of the game from my own point of view — but I’m doing it for the health of ele and the game.

I’m honestly telling you I play all facets of the game. I’ve played high level PvP, I’m a top tier dueler, I’m a roamer with good success. I’ve played every dungeon once (just to say I have, I disdain PvE).

If you read my posts, you’ll see I am in fact saying the “meta” builds are overpowered. I’m suggesting your idol’s views are out of line with what is healthy for the class.

Phant was apparently quoted saying he dislikes D/D a while back, so he’s lost all credibility on the matter.

I’ve played Ele as long as anybody, I’ve rolled every class to learn them and bring that skill back to ele. Take or don’t take my views on balance, but rest assured they’re at least objective when I say they are.

My biased view is that all condition builds need to be done away with and the condition damage/duration stats need to be done away with, conditions need to be built into power builds to make a more complex fight. But I don’t actually ask for that to happen. Ever.

Neko.9021:

I don’t really regard the ability of players to duel in 1v1 situations to be indicative of their skill, given that everything in the game (PvE, WvW, SPvP) is about your ability to team-fight well. If we accepted that 1v1 capability shows how good of a player you are, then PU Mesmers must be the best players in this game :P

The ability to understand 1v1 is a powerful thing. Not just doing it with overpowered builds, but by doing it with a variety. I’ve been making ele dueling a reality since most eles abandoned their daggers in the dark ages after the final RTL nerf.

I will also say that having watched and been subjected to thousands of duels, I’ve seen just about every trait used and a ton of builds fleshed out. I do understand the mechanics and parameters of this game super well, and I voice what I think will be good for the health of the overall game.

Lettuce.2945:

Oh? What about 1 v X :P? But the point is…If someone beats the “all-star” players at their OWN professions with the SAME profession consistently…Doesn’t that mean that the player who won has better awareness of their own professions? Hmm? Hmmm?

And the other point is…This is mainly a BALANCE issue. If everything that was a suggested nerf by the OP was carried out…It would render the ele back to its laughable state.

If a person is really beating a bunch of people 1vX then the X must be terrible. It’s great for WvW youtube montages but it’s hardly something to be taken seriously as a match of equals.

Regardless, this is one of the things I really dislike about a lot of the community of this game. People have this obsession with engaging in 1v1s and trying to tier themselves over who is better than who, when that’s hardly what the game’s about. Yes, many good players will lose quite a bit in 1v1 duels, even against people who run the same class. But no, I do not believe that because someone that was watching Phantaram or Ostrich Eggs on twitch decided to go and challenge them to a duel and wins, that suddenly that player takes the crown of being the “better” player, especially when all supported formats of the game (PvE, WvW, and sPvP) all encourage team fighting and are about the ability to work with others.

But what you fail to understand is that if the player excels at dueling, it means they understand not only their profession but the other profession that they are dueling as well. It’s that knowledge that allows you to be the player on top. Understanding the mechanics of yours and other professions and how to counter them is what makes you a good pvper. Also understanding 1 v 1ing and being good at it allows you to fight ON POINT in a match as well…and if you are superior in 1 v 1 capabilities and understand the mechanics of the other classes, you can bunker long enough for your teammates to arrive in a team fight. So 1 v 2ing or 1 v 3ing on a cap for 30 seconds is more than enough time. So yeah, dueling does matter :P. I main an ele, started the game with one and I play all professions. I play all builds too so I understand how they work and how to counter them with specific set ups and all. I don’t claim to be THE ABSOLUTE BEST, but I do think I’m up there in skill. Some people also just pick up pvp quicker than others, so that’s also a factor to consider. Just because a player is popular by other means doesn’t mean their opinion is the only one that matters. So when people disregard the opinion of others just because they are “unknown” is a bit ridiculous to me. Hang around on dueling servers more and i guaranteed you’ll find better players. I even know some wvw’ers who don’t spvp a lot that are better pvpers than the “known” ones. You never know. Might be a few hidden gems out there and you wouldn’t know it.

Not disregarding any opinions here. I’m just telling to people to at least
know who they are talking to before spiting “You’re wrong cuz Y, l2p issue, K bye.”.

The crux of the problem is the might, not the amulet or abilities. Reduce the might-stacking potential by:
- Nerf battle sigil to give 3 stacks for 15 or 10s, or 2 stacks for 20s.
- Nerf blast finishers to give shorter duration (maybe even more stacks)
- Remove blast finishers from the professions

Battle sigil is a great target, as on celes d/d strength ele it accounts for ~10.5 stacks of might, or 368 power AND condi damage on average. Even the free dodge on energy sigil isn’t that strong.

I 100% disagree with increasing the CD of drake’s breathe. Eles already deal with long CD’s on most skills, and are designed to have 1 short CD skill in the 2-spot on every weapon. You could decrease the burn duration from drake’s breathe, or total duration and number of ticks (a very minor change, as many cut it off early anyway).

What Neko said: These people are giving commentary on how their profession works within the confines of the metagames that they partake in. Bringing in 1vX or shady dueling harlots in as an argument to why a these people at the top of the official pvp scene shouldn’t be listened to is kind of irrevelent when we’re talking about a balance discussion that deals more with the official metagame at hand.

As for my opinion: Let the D/D eles rot then, if its for the good of the metagame. All of these faceroll perma heal spam skills without thinking builds kitten me off. I can only play ranger for an hour at most before I get sick of it for similar reasons. Playing a D/D ele really isn’t fun for me, nor is it satisfying to fight against unless I can steamroll it on condition necro. But simply, imagine a meta game where a D/D ele is on every team instead of a warrior, since their adrenaline nerf will make them less faceroll. Is that healthy? Is that diverse? Is that even fun? Since April, its been back to same god mode build Eles have been playing since 2012.

And as we saw today, Eles don’t even need daggers or celestial amulets to carry their team to victory against Apex Prime. We have other options besides the same exact build played by everyone since 2012, and I just hate that those other options are forgone to have mobile tanky boon monkeys with oodles of healing, on almost every single team.

Can anyone explain why this needs a nerf to somebody who doesn’t play much pvp?
The only eles I see are full zerker pve ones
Thanks

nearlight.3064:

Let the D/D eles rot then, if its for the good of the metagame. All of these faceroll perma heal spam skills without thinking builds kitten me off. I can only play ranger for an hour at most before I get sick of it for similar reasons. Playing a D/D ele really isn’t fun for me, nor is it satisfying to fight against unless I can steamroll it on condition necro. I just hate that those other options are forgone to have mobile tanky boon monkeys with oodles of healing, on almost every single team.

And boom, you just lost every shred of respectability here lol.

You hate it, it’s too “hard” to fight, ele is too difficult for you to play, so let it rot. People like you are why I have to post on the forum. Because all too often I see people who don’t know left from right agreeing to detrimental ideas.

Go back and comment on things you understand like condi-spam necro.

fadeaway.2807:

Can anyone explain why this needs a nerf to somebody who doesn’t play much pvp?
The only eles I see are full zerker pve ones
Thanks

Celestial ele, celestial war, celestial engie all benefit from using most of the stats of the armor and make up for the lower power by might stacking.

The OP suggested whack-a-mole balance, but people like lettuce and neko are suggesting alter either might stacking or celestial amulet instead.

I only need to point out, just like grim reaper, that if before the patch they were “useless” then suddenly are OP, it’s because of the celestial armor everybody is putting on.

Simple as that. Nobody used it before, everybody uses it now. Eles received two effective buffs to the D/D build as well in that patch, but those were necessary to a UP weapon set. People are quick to forget how few elementalists played the game for several months.

Mbelch.9028:

nearlight.3064:

Let the D/D eles rot then, if its for the good of the metagame. All of these faceroll perma heal spam skills without thinking builds kitten me off. I can only play ranger for an hour at most before I get sick of it for similar reasons. Playing a D/D ele really isn’t fun for me, nor is it satisfying to fight against unless I can steamroll it on condition necro. I just hate that those other options are forgone to have mobile tanky boon monkeys with oodles of healing, on almost every single team.

And boom, you just lost every shred of respectability here lol.

You hate it, it’s too “hard” to fight, ele is too difficult for you to play, so let it rot. People like you are why I have to post on the forum. Because all too often I see people who don’t know left from right agreeing to detrimental ideas.

Go back and comment on things you understand like condi-spam necro.

I never said it was too hard for me to play. I just personally dislike the playstyle and I dislike the fact that the meta for a class can be so one dimensional on its usage. If anything its too easy for me to play. I don’t get the satisfaction from playing it like I do with fresh air builds. I’m just personally miffed because I join games and people tell me to respec to DD instead of the proven effective builds like S/F that I like to play, just because they think have a DD ele will help them win. And I get flamed when I refuse to switch, yet I still carry their kitten full glass.

Does that sound like a healthy metagame to you? It doesn’t to me. And I admit I was being dramatic when I said DD can rot. But yeah I’m biased towards my opinions, but that doesn’t mean my concerns are any less credible.

Mbelch.9028:

fadeaway.2807:

Can anyone explain why this needs a nerf to somebody who doesn’t play much pvp?
The only eles I see are full zerker pve ones
Thanks

Celestial ele, celestial war, celestial engie all benefit from using most of the stats of the armor and make up for the lower power by might stacking.

The OP suggested whack-a-mole balance, but people like lettuce and neko are suggesting alter either might stacking or celestial amulet instead.

I only need to point out, just like grim reaper, that if before the patch they were “useless” then suddenly are OP, it’s because of the celestial armor everybody is putting on.

Simple as that. Nobody used it before, everybody uses it now. Eles received two effective buffs to the D/D build as well in that patch, but those were necessary to a UP weapon set. People are quick to forget how few elementalists played the game for several months.

Your last paragraph is basically saying that it is ok for d/d elem to be OP because it was Up… Should I remind you that they were beyond Op for a longer time (1 year ) before they get nerfed ? meh I don’t expect someone with barely over 150 games played to know much about pvp.

nearlight.3064:

I never said it was too hard for me to play. I just personally dislike the playstyle and I dislike the fact that the meta for a class can be so one dimensional on its usage. If anything its too easy for me to play. I don’t get the satisfaction from playing it like I do with fresh air builds. I’m just personally miffed because I join games and people tell me to respec to DD instead of the proven effective builds like S/F that I like to play, just because they think have a DD ele will help them win. And I get flamed when I refuse to switch, yet I still carry their kitten full glass.

Does that sound like a healthy metagame to you? It doesn’t to me. And I admit I was being dramatic when I said DD can rot. But yeah I’m biased towards my opinions, but that doesn’t mean my concerns are any less credible.

And let me guess you think s/f is considered skilled gameplay for you? Instant air burst with no tells that requires the press of a button,all done from range,fire and forget daze,only 1 targeted spell,overbudgeted spells that “pro” eles like to spam on cd on their streams without second thought..When i see the d/d skillset 1dimensional is the last word that comes to my mind..
So yeah let d/d rot..its clear afterall that a weaponset that is complete and yet totally counterable in its entirety of skills should remain unviable because you dislike the role of what is essentially a bruiser in every other game..Just because playing zerker gives you the illusion of “Skill” !?! even thoough you essentially press 2 to do most of your damage and swap to air every 5 sec.
D/d is melee on the squishiest class.. it will always have to be a bruiser spec with lots of tankyness.If anything damage is the only issue with it. The rest is your hate towards regen builds and your bias to what you think requires no skill

Poplolita.2638:

Mbelch.9028:

fadeaway.2807:

Can anyone explain why this needs a nerf to somebody who doesn’t play much pvp?
The only eles I see are full zerker pve ones
Thanks

Celestial ele, celestial war, celestial engie all benefit from using most of the stats of the armor and make up for the lower power by might stacking.

The OP suggested whack-a-mole balance, but people like lettuce and neko are suggesting alter either might stacking or celestial amulet instead.

I only need to point out, just like grim reaper, that if before the patch they were “useless” then suddenly are OP, it’s because of the celestial armor everybody is putting on.

Simple as that. Nobody used it before, everybody uses it now. Eles received two effective buffs to the D/D build as well in that patch, but those were necessary to a UP weapon set. People are quick to forget how few elementalists played the game for several months.

Your last paragraph is basically saying that it is ok for d/d elem to be OP because it was Up… Should I remind you that they were beyond Op for a longer time (1 year ) before they get nerfed ? meh I don’t expect someone with barely over 150 games played to know much about pvp.

Hah. 150 serious TPvP games with teams preparing for the ToLs, but go ahead and judge it based on that. Also don’t bother considering my other experiences, especially given my hundreds of hours running the most successful dueling server. None of that really matters at all.

My last Graf infers d/d ele needs to fit into the meta somewhere, and if you consider the changes that happened, from vastly UP to just before the celestial “discovery”, the ele class was starting to fit into a balanced role.

I’ve focused my learning on ele. I know how every stat influences every skill, I know the hidden little secrets that most people don’t know about the weapon skills. I think after thousands of hours of learning the class, I’m more than qualified to speak to the situation of elementalists, especially when I am saying I’m a staunch supporter of bringing down celestial cancer cheese. But nerfing classes down because of celestial is only detrimental.

Look at it this way.

-If prepatch eles weren’t represented, there was an issue.
The solution was to buff ele, which they did with several skill buffs.

-If celestial eles are over represented, there’s an issue.
The solution is to do what will bring down celestial ele, but not ele as a whole.

Look at the rest of ele under other armor stats. They’re still underrepresented. If you nerf the weapons rather than the true issue, you’re not doing things right. You’re only kicking a dog while it’s down in the hopes that it doesn’t come back to bite you.

Celestial is the issue across the board. It seems the simple answer is making some of the defensive stats lower, or simply bringing it CLOSER in line to the total point pools of other amulets is a very simple, fair change.*

I figure this is all painfully obvious, but to people who don’t specialize in ele, I hope the description helps.

nearlight.3064:

And I admit I was being dramatic when I said DD can rot. But yeah I’m biased towards my opinions, but that doesn’t mean my concerns are any less credible.

Simply yes. You’re biased, you hold a grudge, so your opinions aren’t valuable to me, or to anybody looking to objectively fix an issue.

Back to your bridge.

Mbelch.9028:

Poplolita.2638:

Mbelch.9028:

fadeaway.2807:

Can anyone explain why this needs a nerf to somebody who doesn’t play much pvp?
The only eles I see are full zerker pve ones
Thanks

Celestial ele, celestial war, celestial engie all benefit from using most of the stats of the armor and make up for the lower power by might stacking.

The OP suggested whack-a-mole balance, but people like lettuce and neko are suggesting alter either might stacking or celestial amulet instead.

I only need to point out, just like grim reaper, that if before the patch they were “useless” then suddenly are OP, it’s because of the celestial armor everybody is putting on.

Simple as that. Nobody used it before, everybody uses it now. Eles received two effective buffs to the D/D build as well in that patch, but those were necessary to a UP weapon set. People are quick to forget how few elementalists played the game for several months.

Your last paragraph is basically saying that it is ok for d/d elem to be OP because it was Up… Should I remind you that they were beyond Op for a longer time (1 year ) before they get nerfed ? meh I don’t expect someone with barely over 150 games played to know much about pvp.

Hah. 150 serious TPvP games with teams preparing for the ToLs, but go ahead and judge it based on that. Also don’t bother considering my other experiences, especially given my hundreds of hours running the most successful dueling server. None of that really matters at all.

My last Graf infers d/d ele needs to fit into the meta somewhere, and if you consider the changes that happened, from vastly UP to just before the celestial “discovery”, the ele class was starting to fit into a balanced role.

I’ve focused my learning on ele. I know how every stat influences every skill, I know the hidden little secrets that most people don’t know about the weapon skills. I think after thousands of hours of learning the class, I’m more than qualified to speak to the situation of elementalists, especially when I am saying I’m a staunch supporter of bringing down celestial cancer cheese. But nerfing classes down because of celestial is only detrimental.

Look at it this way.

-If prepatch eles weren’t represented, there was an issue.
The solution was to buff ele, which they did with several skill buffs.

-If celestial eles are over represented, there’s an issue.
The solution is to do what will bring down celestial ele, but not ele as a whole.

Look at the rest of ele under other armor stats. They’re still underrepresented. If you nerf the weapons rather than the true issue, you’re not doing things right. You’re only kicking a dog while it’s down in the hopes that it doesn’t come back to bite you.

---

Celestial is the issue across the board. It seems the simple answer is making some of the defensive stats lower, or simply bringing it CLOSER in line to the total point pools of other amulets is a very simple, fair change.*

I figure this is all painfully obvious, but to people who don’t specialize in ele, I hope the description helps.

When my post only contains 2-3-4 sentences, it means “Please don’t bother having a discussion with me” I won’t even bother reading your post.

Poplolita.2638:

Mbelch.9028:

Poplolita.2638:

Mbelch.9028:

fadeaway.2807:

Can anyone explain why this needs a nerf to somebody who doesn’t play much pvp?
The only eles I see are full zerker pve ones
Thanks

Celestial ele, celestial war, celestial engie all benefit from using most of the stats of the armor and make up for the lower power by might stacking.

The OP suggested whack-a-mole balance, but people like lettuce and neko are suggesting alter either might stacking or celestial amulet instead.

I only need to point out, just like grim reaper, that if before the patch they were “useless” then suddenly are OP, it’s because of the celestial armor everybody is putting on.

Simple as that. Nobody used it before, everybody uses it now. Eles received two effective buffs to the D/D build as well in that patch, but those were necessary to a UP weapon set. People are quick to forget how few elementalists played the game for several months.

Your last paragraph is basically saying that it is ok for d/d elem to be OP because it was Up… Should I remind you that they were beyond Op for a longer time (1 year ) before they get nerfed ? meh I don’t expect someone with barely over 150 games played to know much about pvp.

Hah. 150 serious TPvP games with teams preparing for the ToLs, but go ahead and judge it based on that. Also don’t bother considering my other experiences, especially given my hundreds of hours running the most successful dueling server. None of that really matters at all.

My last Graf infers d/d ele needs to fit into the meta somewhere, and if you consider the changes that happened, from vastly UP to just before the celestial “discovery”, the ele class was starting to fit into a balanced role.

I’ve focused my learning on ele. I know how every stat influences every skill, I know the hidden little secrets that most people don’t know about the weapon skills. I think after thousands of hours of learning the class, I’m more than qualified to speak to the situation of elementalists, especially when I am saying I’m a staunch supporter of bringing down celestial cancer cheese. But nerfing classes down because of celestial is only detrimental.

Look at it this way.

-If prepatch eles weren’t represented, there was an issue.
The solution was to buff ele, which they did with several skill buffs.

-If celestial eles are over represented, there’s an issue.
The solution is to do what will bring down celestial ele, but not ele as a whole.

Look at the rest of ele under other armor stats. They’re still underrepresented. If you nerf the weapons rather than the true issue, you’re not doing things right. You’re only kicking a dog while it’s down in the hopes that it doesn’t come back to bite you.

---

Celestial is the issue across the board. It seems the simple answer is making some of the defensive stats lower, or simply bringing it CLOSER in line to the total point pools of other amulets is a very simple, fair change.*

I figure this is all painfully obvious, but to people who don’t specialize in ele, I hope the description helps.

When my post only contains 2-3-4 sentences, it means “Please don’t bother having a discussion with me” I won’t even bother reading your post.

AKA — “When I can’t argue with strong logic I go home.”

Mbelch.9028:

Poplolita.2638:

Mbelch.9028:

Poplolita.2638:

Mbelch.9028:

fadeaway.2807:

Can anyone explain why this needs a nerf to somebody who doesn’t play much pvp?
The only eles I see are full zerker pve ones
Thanks

Celestial ele, celestial war, celestial engie all benefit from using most of the stats of the armor and make up for the lower power by might stacking.

The OP suggested whack-a-mole balance, but people like lettuce and neko are suggesting alter either might stacking or celestial amulet instead.

I only need to point out, just like grim reaper, that if before the patch they were “useless” then suddenly are OP, it’s because of the celestial armor everybody is putting on.

Simple as that. Nobody used it before, everybody uses it now. Eles received two effective buffs to the D/D build as well in that patch, but those were necessary to a UP weapon set. People are quick to forget how few elementalists played the game for several months.

Your last paragraph is basically saying that it is ok for d/d elem to be OP because it was Up… Should I remind you that they were beyond Op for a longer time (1 year ) before they get nerfed ? meh I don’t expect someone with barely over 150 games played to know much about pvp.

Hah. 150 serious TPvP games with teams preparing for the ToLs, but go ahead and judge it based on that. Also don’t bother considering my other experiences, especially given my hundreds of hours running the most successful dueling server. None of that really matters at all.

My last Graf infers d/d ele needs to fit into the meta somewhere, and if you consider the changes that happened, from vastly UP to just before the celestial “discovery”, the ele class was starting to fit into a balanced role.

I’ve focused my learning on ele. I know how every stat influences every skill, I know the hidden little secrets that most people don’t know about the weapon skills. I think after thousands of hours of learning the class, I’m more than qualified to speak to the situation of elementalists, especially when I am saying I’m a staunch supporter of bringing down celestial cancer cheese. But nerfing classes down because of celestial is only detrimental.

Look at it this way.

-If prepatch eles weren’t represented, there was an issue.
The solution was to buff ele, which they did with several skill buffs.

-If celestial eles are over represented, there’s an issue.
The solution is to do what will bring down celestial ele, but not ele as a whole.

Look at the rest of ele under other armor stats. They’re still underrepresented. If you nerf the weapons rather than the true issue, you’re not doing things right. You’re only kicking a dog while it’s down in the hopes that it doesn’t come back to bite you.

---

Celestial is the issue across the board. It seems the simple answer is making some of the defensive stats lower, or simply bringing it CLOSER in line to the total point pools of other amulets is a very simple, fair change.*

I figure this is all painfully obvious, but to people who don’t specialize in ele, I hope the description helps.

When my post only contains 2-3-4 sentences, it means “Please don’t bother having a discussion with me” I won’t even bother reading your post.

AKA — “When I can’t argue with strong logic I go home.”

No, more like, it’s not even worth it. You got your views, I got mine. Having an argument over opinion is a waste of time. Note: I did not shrare my opinion on if OP is right or not. I didn’t even share it.

Poplolita.2638:

Mbelch.9028:

Poplolita.2638:

Mbelch.9028:

Poplolita.2638:

Mbelch.9028:

fadeaway.2807:

Can anyone explain why this needs a nerf to somebody who doesn’t play much pvp?
The only eles I see are full zerker pve ones
Thanks

Celestial ele, celestial war, celestial engie all benefit from using most of the stats of the armor and make up for the lower power by might stacking.

The OP suggested whack-a-mole balance, but people like lettuce and neko are suggesting alter either might stacking or celestial amulet instead.

I only need to point out, just like grim reaper, that if before the patch they were “useless” then suddenly are OP, it’s because of the celestial armor everybody is putting on.

Simple as that. Nobody used it before, everybody uses it now. Eles received two effective buffs to the D/D build as well in that patch, but those were necessary to a UP weapon set. People are quick to forget how few elementalists played the game for several months.

Your last paragraph is basically saying that it is ok for d/d elem to be OP because it was Up… Should I remind you that they were beyond Op for a longer time (1 year ) before they get nerfed ? meh I don’t expect someone with barely over 150 games played to know much about pvp.

Hah. 150 serious TPvP games with teams preparing for the ToLs, but go ahead and judge it based on that. Also don’t bother considering my other experiences, especially given my hundreds of hours running the most successful dueling server. None of that really matters at all.

My last Graf infers d/d ele needs to fit into the meta somewhere, and if you consider the changes that happened, from vastly UP to just before the celestial “discovery”, the ele class was starting to fit into a balanced role.

I’ve focused my learning on ele. I know how every stat influences every skill, I know the hidden little secrets that most people don’t know about the weapon skills. I think after thousands of hours of learning the class, I’m more than qualified to speak to the situation of elementalists, especially when I am saying I’m a staunch supporter of bringing down celestial cancer cheese. But nerfing classes down because of celestial is only detrimental.

Look at it this way.

-If prepatch eles weren’t represented, there was an issue.
The solution was to buff ele, which they did with several skill buffs.

-If celestial eles are over represented, there’s an issue.
The solution is to do what will bring down celestial ele, but not ele as a whole.

Look at the rest of ele under other armor stats. They’re still underrepresented. If you nerf the weapons rather than the true issue, you’re not doing things right. You’re only kicking a dog while it’s down in the hopes that it doesn’t come back to bite you.

---

Celestial is the issue across the board. It seems the simple answer is making some of the defensive stats lower, or simply bringing it CLOSER in line to the total point pools of other amulets is a very simple, fair change.*

I figure this is all painfully obvious, but to people who don’t specialize in ele, I hope the description helps.

When my post only contains 2-3-4 sentences, it means “Please don’t bother having a discussion with me” I won’t even bother reading your post.

AKA — “When I can’t argue with strong logic I go home.”

No, more like, it’s not even worth it. You got your views, I got mine. Having an argument over opinion is a waste of time. Note: I did not shrare my opinion on if OP is right or not. I didn’t even share it.

Give it up, man. You can’t come into a discussion about eles, not offer anything constructive while actually criticizing an ele who knows the class.

You as well can hop back to your bridge.

Mbelch.9028:

Poplolita.2638:

Mbelch.9028:

Poplolita.2638:

Mbelch.9028:

Poplolita.2638:

Mbelch.9028:

fadeaway.2807:

Can anyone explain why this needs a nerf to somebody who doesn’t play much pvp?
The only eles I see are full zerker pve ones
Thanks

Celestial ele, celestial war, celestial engie all benefit from using most of the stats of the armor and make up for the lower power by might stacking.

The OP suggested whack-a-mole balance, but people like lettuce and neko are suggesting alter either might stacking or celestial amulet instead.

I only need to point out, just like grim reaper, that if before the patch they were “useless” then suddenly are OP, it’s because of the celestial armor everybody is putting on.

Simple as that. Nobody used it before, everybody uses it now. Eles received two effective buffs to the D/D build as well in that patch, but those were necessary to a UP weapon set. People are quick to forget how few elementalists played the game for several months.

Your last paragraph is basically saying that it is ok for d/d elem to be OP because it was Up… Should I remind you that they were beyond Op for a longer time (1 year ) before they get nerfed ? meh I don’t expect someone with barely over 150 games played to know much about pvp.

Hah. 150 serious TPvP games with teams preparing for the ToLs, but go ahead and judge it based on that. Also don’t bother considering my other experiences, especially given my hundreds of hours running the most successful dueling server. None of that really matters at all.

My last Graf infers d/d ele needs to fit into the meta somewhere, and if you consider the changes that happened, from vastly UP to just before the celestial “discovery”, the ele class was starting to fit into a balanced role.

I’ve focused my learning on ele. I know how every stat influences every skill, I know the hidden little secrets that most people don’t know about the weapon skills. I think after thousands of hours of learning the class, I’m more than qualified to speak to the situation of elementalists, especially when I am saying I’m a staunch supporter of bringing down celestial cancer cheese. But nerfing classes down because of celestial is only detrimental.

Look at it this way.

-If prepatch eles weren’t represented, there was an issue.
The solution was to buff ele, which they did with several skill buffs.

-If celestial eles are over represented, there’s an issue.
The solution is to do what will bring down celestial ele, but not ele as a whole.

Look at the rest of ele under other armor stats. They’re still underrepresented. If you nerf the weapons rather than the true issue, you’re not doing things right. You’re only kicking a dog while it’s down in the hopes that it doesn’t come back to bite you.

---

Celestial is the issue across the board. It seems the simple answer is making some of the defensive stats lower, or simply bringing it CLOSER in line to the total point pools of other amulets is a very simple, fair change.*

I figure this is all painfully obvious, but to people who don’t specialize in ele, I hope the description helps.

When my post only contains 2-3-4 sentences, it means “Please don’t bother having a discussion with me” I won’t even bother reading your post.

AKA — “When I can’t argue with strong logic I go home.”

No, more like, it’s not even worth it. You got your views, I got mine. Having an argument over opinion is a waste of time. Note: I did not shrare my opinion on if OP is right or not. I didn’t even share it.

Give it up, man. You can’t come into a discussion about eles, not offer anything constructive while actually criticizing an ele who knows the class.

You as well can hop back to your bridge.

Why do you come up so defensive? Your ton seems really pointed right now. Again, 126 games played overall is not enough to consider yourself to be good. Come back to Earth, now you’re just being deluted which is one more reason to not bother having a discussion with you. No wonder Phantaram didn’t bother to post back….

Poplolita.2638:

Mbelch.9028:

Poplolita.2638:

Mbelch.9028:

Poplolita.2638:

Mbelch.9028:

Poplolita.2638:

Mbelch.9028:

fadeaway.2807:

Can anyone explain why this needs a nerf to somebody who doesn’t play much pvp?
The only eles I see are full zerker pve ones
Thanks

Celestial ele, celestial war, celestial engie all benefit from using most of the stats of the armor and make up for the lower power by might stacking.

The OP suggested whack-a-mole balance, but people like lettuce and neko are suggesting alter either might stacking or celestial amulet instead.

I only need to point out, just like grim reaper, that if before the patch they were “useless” then suddenly are OP, it’s because of the celestial armor everybody is putting on.

Simple as that. Nobody used it before, everybody uses it now. Eles received two effective buffs to the D/D build as well in that patch, but those were necessary to a UP weapon set. People are quick to forget how few elementalists played the game for several months.

Your last paragraph is basically saying that it is ok for d/d elem to be OP because it was Up… Should I remind you that they were beyond Op for a longer time (1 year ) before they get nerfed ? meh I don’t expect someone with barely over 150 games played to know much about pvp.

Hah. 150 serious TPvP games with teams preparing for the ToLs, but go ahead and judge it based on that. Also don’t bother considering my other experiences, especially given my hundreds of hours running the most successful dueling server. None of that really matters at all.

My last Graf infers d/d ele needs to fit into the meta somewhere, and if you consider the changes that happened, from vastly UP to just before the celestial “discovery”, the ele class was starting to fit into a balanced role.

I’ve focused my learning on ele. I know how every stat influences every skill, I know the hidden little secrets that most people don’t know about the weapon skills. I think after thousands of hours of learning the class, I’m more than qualified to speak to the situation of elementalists, especially when I am saying I’m a staunch supporter of bringing down celestial cancer cheese. But nerfing classes down because of celestial is only detrimental.

Look at it this way.

-If prepatch eles weren’t represented, there was an issue.
The solution was to buff ele, which they did with several skill buffs.

-If celestial eles are over represented, there’s an issue.
The solution is to do what will bring down celestial ele, but not ele as a whole.

Look at the rest of ele under other armor stats. They’re still underrepresented. If you nerf the weapons rather than the true issue, you’re not doing things right. You’re only kicking a dog while it’s down in the hopes that it doesn’t come back to bite you.

---

Celestial is the issue across the board. It seems the simple answer is making some of the defensive stats lower, or simply bringing it CLOSER in line to the total point pools of other amulets is a very simple, fair change.*

I figure this is all painfully obvious, but to people who don’t specialize in ele, I hope the description helps.

When my post only contains 2-3-4 sentences, it means “Please don’t bother having a discussion with me” I won’t even bother reading your post.

AKA — “When I can’t argue with strong logic I go home.”

No, more like, it’s not even worth it. You got your views, I got mine. Having an argument over opinion is a waste of time. Note: I did not shrare my opinion on if OP is right or not. I didn’t even share it.

Give it up, man. You can’t come into a discussion about eles, not offer anything constructive while actually criticizing an ele who knows the class.

You as well can hop back to your bridge.

Why do you come up so defensive? Your ton seems really pointed right now. Again, 126 games played overall is not enough to consider yourself to be good. Come back to Earth, now you’re just being deluted which is one more reason to not bother having a discussion with you. No wonder Phantaram didn’t bother to post back….

Do you even play elementalist? Can you do anything but post how many TPvP games people have played?

Come back when you can hold your own in a discussion let alone a duel.

Phant didn’t post back because what can you honestly post when you’re called out on terrible balance ideas by people who can clearly and concisely lay out why they’re bad.

So S/F requires less skill when it’s far more punishing of any mistake? If you play D/D right you’ll rarely die.

Anyway I’m done posting on this thread. Most likely anyway. Have fun children!

nearlight.3064:

So S/F requires less skill when it’s far more punishing of any mistake? If you play D/D right you’ll rarely die.

Anyway I’m done posting on this thread. Most likely anyway. Have fun children!

Of course its easier to not die with d/d..you are playing 6 points into healing tree and 2 on toughness and got onothing but defencive traits and utlities. What has that to do with d/d specifically though?Dude you are as defensive as it can get..GET IT??
Still dont see any “i go immune for 4 sec” or "condi clear/reflect/blast/cripple skills in it

So.. you think the game shouldnt have tanky specs that can sustain and support? Or do you think d/d ele doesnt deserve a build like that?.Maybe you think not dying while playing those specs means you mastered them??! dunno i really cant understand your definition of skill cap/ passive play etc..You seem to confuse the roles in your mind.

And tbh d/d skillset at its peak is harder to pull of than s/f..we can argue that all day but im afraid you d still confuse different builds that fulfill different roles and essentially compare apple to oranges failing to see the bigger picture..
In short yeah you are right ..s/f is harder cause you can die while playing with full damage traits.GG i bet the SKILL CAP must be sooo high that you cant even see d/d players from up there

nearlight.3064:

So S/F requires less skill when it’s far more punishing of any mistake? If you play D/D right you’ll rarely die.

Anyway I’m done posting on this thread. Most likely anyway. Have fun children!

Maybe…Just maybe this will help you understand better. Try playing your d/d ele without strength runes and cele ammy. Use zerker or something else. You’ll see it’s a bit harder than cele ammy. It’s the amulet that’s more forgiving. You are whining about the bunker build with sustained dps…But that comes from the AMULET/RUNE (MIGHT STACKS), not the profession. That’s what you fail to understand and you demonstrate that failure to understand that extremely well.

And with the new changes to scepter mesmer…You are going to want the sustainable d/d ele that can condi cleanse on your team…Eles have some of the best cleanse rotations in the game next to mantra mesmer (which is rare atm).

When there is a nerf thread it always amounts to someone trying to discredit the person/s perspective on the other side of the fence. Its probably best not to do that because each person has some truth to what they are saying, even though it may not be the whole truth.

We should try to keep things simple, maybe by discussing the matter in bullet points. In this case the bullet points could be the strengths and weaknesses of the d/d celestial ele.

I only can say that when you have a build that has high sustain, survivability and damage then this is never a good thing. Since the point of diversity is to sacrifice one area of strength for another. If d/d celestial ele has all three then there is a problem, though the problem may not necessarily be in the area that some people think it is.

Aza.2105:

When there is a nerf thread it always amounts to someone trying to discredit the person/s perspective on the other side of the fence. Its probably best not to do that because each person has some truth to what they are saying, even though it may not be the whole truth.

We should try to keep things simple, maybe by discussing the matter in bullet points. In this case the bullet points could be the strengths and weaknesses of the d/d celestial ele.

I only can say that when you have a build that has high sustain, survivability and damage then this is never a good thing. Since the point of diversity is to sacrifice one area of strength for another. If d/d celestial ele has all three then there is a problem, though the problem may not necessarily be in the area that some people think it is.

It’s because a naked ele has balanced level of all three of those so celestial is more effective on them. Full water magic and arcana(healing+vitality+boon duration) deserves high sustain so that is innocent. First weakness condition,right after they get off water or if they use it carelessly,on condition thief,necro and engi I’m fine against them adding that they are melee also. Second weakness tanks if retaliation is present even more,long fight but if ele stay he will eventually lose. Post patch celestial war will be balanced with torment and adrenaline changes now they will be naturally weak against damage conditions,celestial engi is still weak to condition and cc.

A good celestial(because guard and thief can’t use it) counters an offensive power set up but not longbow ranger that much(they can make you chase them) or just have someone on squad to remove boons if you are in one if not the game is not made for 1v1 you can find your hardest counter out there.

Poplolita.2638:

Mbelch.9028:

fadeaway.2807:

Can anyone explain why this needs a nerf to somebody who doesn’t play much pvp?
The only eles I see are full zerker pve ones
Thanks

Celestial ele, celestial war, celestial engie all benefit from using most of the stats of the armor and make up for the lower power by might stacking.

The OP suggested whack-a-mole balance, but people like lettuce and neko are suggesting alter either might stacking or celestial amulet instead.

I only need to point out, just like grim reaper, that if before the patch they were “useless” then suddenly are OP, it’s because of the celestial armor everybody is putting on.

Simple as that. Nobody used it before, everybody uses it now. Eles received two effective buffs to the D/D build as well in that patch, but those were necessary to a UP weapon set. People are quick to forget how few elementalists played the game for several months.

Your last paragraph is basically saying that it is ok for d/d elem to be OP because it was Up… Should I remind you that they were beyond Op for a longer time (1 year ) before they get nerfed ? meh I don’t expect someone with barely over 150 games played to know much about pvp.

Just read this topic:

Mbelch’s original point was that the nerfs to elementalist abilities that the topic starter asked for are highly flawed. Basically, celestial and might stacks are the main problems. Not drakes breath or lightning whip. How many eles even know about the lightning whip exploit? You can’t say all of them do it. But nearly every D/D celestial ele gets called OP in sPvP dueling servers. Also, eles who use zerker amulet still aren’t influential outside of team fights and PvE. They deal slightly higher damage than a might stacking celestial ele but have about a third of the sustain.
Nerfing the class’s skills doesn’t solve the problem. If the class is only OP with celestial amulet then it is obviously celestial that needs to be looked at. yet even this is hardly the case because almost every class except thief has a might stacking celestial build that’s extremely overpowered.

I don’t know what you graduated from but if all you got out of reading this thread was "Your last paragraph is basically saying that it is ok for d/d elem to be OP because it was Up… " you should stop posting here because you lack the ability to maintain an objective discussion without making personal attacks.

Additionally, what makes you think the number of tpvp games played by somebody reflects how well they know the class? Mbelch is a well known and skilled dueler who has played ele through the dark ages of it and petitioned restlessly for changes for over a year before the call was answered in the april balance patch. While everyone here knows it’s slightly over-the-top right now, the nerfs some of you people are calling for are completely moronic.

MLGKorno.5419:

Poplolita.2638:

Mbelch.9028:

fadeaway.2807:

Can anyone explain why this needs a nerf to somebody who doesn’t play much pvp?
The only eles I see are full zerker pve ones
Thanks

Celestial ele, celestial war, celestial engie all benefit from using most of the stats of the armor and make up for the lower power by might stacking.

The OP suggested whack-a-mole balance, but people like lettuce and neko are suggesting alter either might stacking or celestial amulet instead.

I only need to point out, just like grim reaper, that if before the patch they were “useless” then suddenly are OP, it’s because of the celestial armor everybody is putting on.

Simple as that. Nobody used it before, everybody uses it now. Eles received two effective buffs to the D/D build as well in that patch, but those were necessary to a UP weapon set. People are quick to forget how few elementalists played the game for several months.

Your last paragraph is basically saying that it is ok for d/d elem to be OP because it was Up… Should I remind you that they were beyond Op for a longer time (1 year ) before they get nerfed ? meh I don’t expect someone with barely over 150 games played to know much about pvp.

Just read this topic:

Mbelch’s original point was that the nerfs to elementalist abilities that the topic starter asked for are highly flawed. Basically, celestial and might stacks are the main problems. Not drakes breath or lightning whip. How many eles even know about the lightning whip exploit? You can’t say all of them do it. But nearly every D/D celestial ele gets called OP in sPvP dueling servers. Also, eles who use zerker amulet still aren’t influential outside of team fights and PvE. They deal slightly higher damage than a might stacking celestial ele but have about a third of the sustain.
Nerfing the class’s skills doesn’t solve the problem. If the class is only OP with celestial amulet then it is obviously celestial that needs to be looked at. yet even this is hardly the case because almost every class except thief has a might stacking celestial build that’s extremely overpowered.

I don’t know what you graduated from but if all you got out of reading this thread was "Your last paragraph is basically saying that it is ok for d/d elem to be OP because it was Up… " you should stop posting here because you lack the ability to maintain an objective discussion without making personal attacks.

Additionally, what makes you think the number of tpvp games played by somebody reflects how well they know the class? Mbelch is a well known and skilled dueler who has played ele through the dark ages of it and petitioned restlessly for changes for over a year before the call was answered in the april balance patch. While everyone here knows it’s slightly over-the-top right now, the nerfs some of you people are calling for are completely moronic.

Because I slightly agree with his point (although from my necromancer point of view, they are not Op.). I tend to let people make assumption because it’s actually fun. Call me a troll all you want. I’m the kind of poster who tends to call people’s contradiction with whom I agree with. It forces them to actually further expand their point which is exactly what he did with the post that I pretended that I did not read. It’s an interresting psychological behavior, and it entertains me. Call me names, it was worth it.

MLGKorno.5419:

Just read this topic:

Mbelch’s original point was that the nerfs to elementalist abilities that the topic starter asked for are highly flawed. Basically, celestial and might stacks are the main problems. Not drakes breath or lightning whip. How many eles even know about the lightning whip exploit? You can’t say all of them do it. But nearly every D/D celestial ele gets called OP in sPvP dueling servers. Also, eles who use zerker amulet still aren’t influential outside of team fights and PvE. They deal slightly higher damage than a might stacking celestial ele but have about a third of the sustain.
Nerfing the class’s skills doesn’t solve the problem. If the class is only OP with celestial amulet then it is obviously celestial that needs to be looked at. yet even this is hardly the case because almost every class except thief has a might stacking celestial build that’s extremely overpowered.
…
Additionally, what makes you think the number of tpvp games played by somebody reflects how well they know the class? Mbelch is a well known and skilled dueler who has played ele through the dark ages of it and petitioned restlessly for changes for over a year before the call was answered in the april balance patch. While everyone here knows it’s slightly over-the-top right now, the nerfs some of you people are calling for are completely moronic.

I won’t contest that Mbelch is a veteran, knowledgeable, skilled player, but Phantaram is as well. I don’t say that only because he streams, but because he too played elementalist during the time that they may as well have started out in downed-state. So, although I don’t play elementalist very often, I don’t feel it is wise to discount his suggestions; maybe some of the skills he pointed out do need to be looked at.

That having been said, I will agree that it seems as though might stacking and strength runes/hoelbrak runes are the principal culprit. As a mesmer main, it’s very easy to tell the difference when I miss my boon stripping and when I don’t X_X

A question though: What other classes/builds were you hinting at when you said “almost every class except thief has a might stacking celestial build that’s extremely overpowered”? The only ones that come to mind are elementalist, warrior, and power necro. I won’t dispute that engineers CAN stack might with battle sigils, however most of the engineers that I play against are running doom and geomancy, something that feels more effective to me.

Neschast.7196:

A question though: What other classes/builds were you hinting at when you said “almost every class except thief has a might stacking celestial build that’s extremely overpowered”? The only ones that come to mind are elementalist, warrior, and power necro. I won’t dispute that engineers CAN stack might with battle sigils, however most of the engineers that I play against are running doom and geomancy, something that feels more effective to me.

Power necro never runs celestial. The only other won I’d mention would be rangers, as you can run carrion, rabid, settlers, or celestial on spirit/trap/regen builds. They won’t have good might stacking though until the axe buffs in two weeks, since right now they just have mighty swap and battle sigils.

D/D eles are weak in PvE and average in WvW. You need to take that into consideration when you talk about nerfs.

dietzero.3514:

D/D eles are weak in PvE and average in WvW. You need to take that into consideration when you talk about nerfs.

Changes can be made only for Spvp and there has been quite a few cases in the past that this has happened.

Phantaram.1265:

Changes can be made only for Spvp and there has been quite a few cases in the past that this has happened.

I would NOT trust Arenanet doing this. Staff Guardian Hammer Warrior Staff Elementalist and Staff + wells Necromancer (aka GWEN) have been the zerg meta in WvWvW since Autumn 2012. Mesmers are needed for veils, portals, time stop. Thieves are far the most common roaming profession, gankers and sniping enemy rears in zerg fights. This has always been the situation. Ranger and engineer are generally not wanted or needed as they lack a specific role. Now the upcoming changes might make ranger a bit more viable, but engi will remain the least common profession in WvWvW.

During 2013 we saw major buffs to ele staff, warrior profession in general and so on. Arenanet obviously does NOT care about WvWvW and already buffs professions, skills and traits, which would need toning down in WvWvW.

Stealth is far more powerful in WvWvW, yet revealed is 3 seconds in WvWvW/pve and 4 seconds in spvp/tpvp. Out of combat mobility is also much more powerful in WvWvW than in spvp/tpvp, yet warrior greatsword mobility has not been addressed. And we have had countless of threads of people complaining both about stealth (and perma stealth) and warrior mobility.

Celestial + battle of sigil + strengh/Hoelbrak rune D/D elementalist is very strong in small scale and 1 vs 1 in WvWvW as well. It is not part of the official meta, because staff elementalist has a mere 2 point trait (blasting staff), which increases the staff skill radius by 60, staff provides 2x water fields (group healing), 2x fire fields (group might), lighting field (swiftness), huge area chill, ranged area stun (static field) and so on. Staff elementalist provide the biggest damage in zerg fights and are main healer/support (water field with the abundant guardian hammer #2 and warrior hammer blast finishers). Doing any buffs beyond that is just madness.

Arenanet should really start communication (instead of threatening and closing down threads in the WvWvW sub section) with the WvWvW gamers. The WvWvW meta which been has been static since Autumn 2012 and needs to be changed.

To try to have a constructive conversation about the build, I wouldn’t really think that touching the damage is the way to change what makes the build so strong. I mean, it certainly is stronger now for certain, but ultimately the damage hasn’t output disregarding might stacking hasn’t really changed that much between when eles were being considered low tier versus now.

What has changed? Well, celestial gives the build (and many other classes builds) sustainability that was just previously unattainable, AND the Signet of Restoration was un-nerfed. Granted the eles already scale pretty well with healing power investment, and the build has everything it needs to not die, and pretty much the only way to kill one as an individual player is to make the ele player make a mistake, which isn’t really counterplay, it’s a stalemate situation.

Now, that in itself isn’t necessarily a problem, or at least not the problem that makes the build (and other celestial builds) so problematic. With just celestial, the damage output would be a bit more manageable and to some degree be more overall balanced. However, with the current might stacking capabilities that were brought on by the rune/sigil changes, it gives the celestial builds all of the defensive stats they need to be incredible tank/bunker roles, and then allows them to build their offense to really just override the need to build glass cannon or zerker builds when the amount of might being stacked + any runeset bonuses push the builds so close to zerker damage that running something that dies so comparatively easy for the minimal (if any) damage improvement for running zerker isn’t worth the risk.

So: What to do about it? Well, my own opinion is that most of the builds running celestial are a bit too capable of being swiss army knives and it’s bad for the overall health of the game. But logically, it’s hard to see ANet revoking their celestial buff, OR the might stacking abilities they implemented into the game.

A sound solution: Simple, more counterplay to boons. Simply put, as it’s currently easily the most observable with might stacking, that even when taking the classes that can manipulate boons reliably like mesmers and necros, a team with only a few classes dedicated to might stacking (watch the ToL VoDs with 2x War, 1-2 ele teams) can output more boons and maintain them as a team than an individual profession can deal with countering. Combine that with the listed classes being arguably less viable team selection options due to having less “safe” builds, and you really get left with classes that basically have to make no trade offs on their builds to gain all of the positives they want to run, which limits the counterplay ability immensely.

Last point: It’s very questionable at this current state in the game whether having a limited number of classes that can even counter boon stacking mechanics is good for the games health with all of the builds we see running rampant (and that will continue to run rampant post feature pack).

Also, boon denial, as a mechanic, is not punishing. It negates a bit of an opponents offensive potential while doing nothing to break through the defensive capabilities of these celestial builds. So now, you have risky builds having to play perfectly against players and deny their offensive/defensive boons as much as possible, while those builds are still completely safe risk wise and can still kill you relatively safely and continuously negate your efforts by re-stacking their own boons.

tl;dr: Boons are the mechanic currently with the least counterplay and aid celestial build outputs much more than necessary. More counterplay against them not limited to the classes with current boon manipulation abilities are necessary in order to create versatile team compositions while helping to balance out issues with boon accessibility. In some instances and with certain build, boon denial is simply not a punishing enough mechanic, and more punishing boon counterplay mechanics are needed to puncture through the incredibly defensive builds people are now capable of running offensively, in order to create enough gameplay options to make swiss army knife builds less efficient/existent.

Sagat.3285:

Aza.2105:

When there is a nerf thread it always amounts to someone trying to discredit the person/s perspective on the other side of the fence. Its probably best not to do that because each person has some truth to what they are saying, even though it may not be the whole truth.

We should try to keep things simple, maybe by discussing the matter in bullet points. In this case the bullet points could be the strengths and weaknesses of the d/d celestial ele.

I only can say that when you have a build that has high sustain, survivability and damage then this is never a good thing. Since the point of diversity is to sacrifice one area of strength for another. If d/d celestial ele has all three then there is a problem, though the problem may not necessarily be in the area that some people think it is.

It’s because a naked ele has balanced level of all three of those so celestial is more effective on them. Full water magic and arcana(healing+vitality+boon duration) deserves high sustain so that is innocent. First weakness condition,right after they get off water or if they use it carelessly,on condition thief,necro and engi I’m fine against them adding that they are melee also. Second weakness tanks if retaliation is present even more,long fight but if ele stay he will eventually lose. Post patch celestial war will be balanced with torment and adrenaline changes now they will be naturally weak against damage conditions,celestial engi is still weak to condition and cc.

A good celestial(because guard and thief can’t use it) counters an offensive power set up but not longbow ranger that much(they can make you chase them) or just have someone on squad to remove boons if you are in one if not the game is not made for 1v1 you can find your hardest counter out there.

Its true that this isn’t a 1v1 game, but you have to look at it in the big picture. The weaknesses you named are niche, what I mean by this is either a class doesn’t access to it at all or they have very limited access.

• Only a few classes have a viable condition build
• Retaliation has a limited uptime
• Only a few classes have viable boon strip/removals

Because of this it magnifies the problem that people perceive eles have. Yes I agree that those all are weaknesses. But I feel there is much more to it. The biggest issue imo is the lack of intervals of vulnerability with the build. To my knowledge there is little risk of screwing up and being punished.

My perspective about intervals of vulnerability is the time between uptime and cooldowns. Its that time when counter play is possible and its because of that time that it makes the player conscious about what skills they should or should not do. And its also the time when enemies can take advantage of the situation.

You gave a small example of hitting the ele with conditions as soon as they come out of water attunement. This is a valid, but think about how short the rotation is between x attunment and back to water and the water skills with the d/d set. Its very short compared to lets say retaliation up time or the consistency of boon strip and such.

Even if the opposing player makes the right moves like doing boon removal, pounding the ele with conditions or using retaliation. The recovery rate of ele is so fast that they will eventually out live them anyway.

You can use the argument of the game not being 1v1, but its a problem when it takes more than one class to tackle a build that isn’t even a bunker build and does a high amount of damage.

Either celestial/boon stacking needs a nerf or boon denial needs a HUGE buff.

What if Necro/Thief/Mesmer had an ability that did not allow application of any boons for x seconds?

What if Necro/Thief/Mesmer boon removal abilities prioritized Might? Further buffed by lowering CD and upping number of targets?

The point is quite simple and I am more familiar with a Warr but Zerker vs Celestial needs to be toned down because there is no reason to run zerker ammy with a warrior. Equip a bow battle runes strength/hoelbrek runes and you have the same damage as zerker (intelligence sigil helps with damage especially with an axe) with what feels like triple the sustain. I imagine the situation is quite similar with Elementalist.

It is a combination of sustain via celestial as well as damage via might stacking battle sigils strength runes.