Guild Wars 2

Aberrant.6749:

Khalic.3561:

Daishi.6027:

Hmmm no Backstab is high risk and high reward, it’s fairly balanced though less combative and more of a guessing anticipation game.

That’s the problem though. Your anticipation of the actual backstab is of pretty limited use. You can guess the exact moment that they hit their 1 key, and put of an aegis, or dodge, or invuln, and it gains you nothing. The thief can continue to attempt that backstab until their stealth timer runs out. At which point they can retreat to regen initiative, or potentially stealth and try again right there.

CnD is not part of the cost of that backstab, it applies it’s own damage and you still get the payoff of stealth from it regardless of whether you go in for a backstab or not.

Look at it this way. Say I’m running a D/D ele and I use drakes breath to apply burning, as a set up to use fire grab. I then try my fire grab, but it gets evaded. Does drakes breath count as part of my cost for using fire grab? Even though my opponent was skilled enough to dodge my fire grab, should I now be able to attempt fire grab again immediately without penalty of having missed the first time?

If it put about half your skills on CD to apply the required burn, I would agree it should… but that’s hardly the case with ele.

make laught hard.. CD on thief? on weaponskills?

edit:
@paulo
u wanna joke right? 6 initiative is a global resource but not a cooldown. and i dont want start to talk about all the ini-regen-stuff. backstab on the other hand costs nothing if u are already in stealth.

Thief weaponskills have a global resource/cooldown.
CnD costs 6 initiative, wich is 50% of the initiative pool.
That’s what Aberrant meant with “half skills go on cooldown”.

Thieves, please. Don’t whine about weapon cooldowns. Ever.

If you ever cared to calculate the effective cooldowns of your weapon skills or
calculated which ridiculous forms of cooldown reduction in form of initiative
gain you have, ontop of a chill immunity for weapon cooldowns, you’ll never
complain about your “cooldowns” again.

6 initiative = 8 seconds cooldown. wow. What a contraint for a #5 skill.
2 initiative every 10 seconds = 20% cooldown reduction. Here are the calculations from 7 months ago. The skills/traits are not up to date, the numbers still are.

BBT: I think Backstab (along with any stealth skill) should have a low (1 or 2) initiative cost to actually punish thieves spamming the #1 key until the skill finally hits. That way, dodging/blocking/evading/aegising an anticipated backstab would cost the thief initiative. Currently it only costs the player who “countered” a backstab a cooldown or energy with no real gain.

Balefire.7592:

Just to carry over one reddit suggestion I found interesting:
Missed stealth attacks remove stealth, but do not apply revealed.

NOOOOO! That would force players to do better at positioning to actually hit the target on the first attempt and not be allowed to spam as long as they’re stealthed. That’s horrible

Bubby.6475:

Backstab stealth builds usually had no drawbacks for missing a backstab. This was a pretty hot topic on /r/guildwars2.

Instead of just flat out revealing if you miss the backstab like /r/ suggested.

How about giving backstab a 3 second cooldown while being stealthed.

before people start complaining about burst/adrenaline having no risk, there is a risk with burst/adrenaline. It goes on CD for 8 second traited (off the top of my head).

Without a major buff to compensate for your major nerf. Go back to the drawing board and try again later.

pmnt.4067:

Thieves, please. Don’t whine about weapon cooldowns. Ever.

If you ever cared to calculate the effective cooldowns of your weapon skills or
calculated which ridiculous forms of cooldown reduction in form of initiative
gain you have, ontop of a chill immunity for weapon cooldowns, you’ll never
complain about your “cooldowns” again.

6 initiative = 8 seconds cooldown. wow. What a contraint for a #5 skill.
2 initiative every 10 seconds = 20% cooldown reduction. Here are the calculations from 7 months ago. The skills/traits are not up to date, the numbers still are.

If you try to “calculate” cooldowns for thief weapon skills, please do it correcly.
Your example is based on using only one skill besides the autoattack.

A counterexample: (D/D set)
You use: heartseeker->death blossom->dancing dagger->cloak and dagger.
That’s 3+4+3+5=15 initiative. (Base pool is 12)
That means you cannot even use all your skills in a row like other professions.
Weapon swap to shortbow
Clusterbomb->disabling shot->choking gas->infiltrators arrow.
3+4+4+6=17 initiative. (Remember, you are still left with -3)

Now take into account that all 8 skills don’t recharge simultaneously like on other professions. Assuming you wait 6 seconds to use cloak and dagger again, all your other skills are completely locked again.

You simply cannot calculate cooldowns for ressource based skills.
Saying something like “6 initiative is like half of your weapon skills on cooldown” it’s just to compare it a little bit, and maybe make it clear to people who don’t play thief.
12 initiative used means all your weapon skills are locked, or to compare it to other professions, all skills are on cooldown.

By the way, 1 initiative regenerates in 1 second. The math you linked is outdated. Base initiative regeneration was buffed, while initiative regenerating traits were nerfed.

So… please, dear non-thief, don’t cry about initiative. Ever.

Back to topic:
I’ll repost it from one of the other “nerf thieves” thread:

And again the complaints are about the d/p weaponset. Going stealth is very difficult to counter (but possible). It’s just badly designed.
Asides from this set and the blinding powder utility (wich is perfectly fine due to its cooldown), your statement that stealth is “absolutely impossible to prevent or counter” is just wrong.
The thief stealths either trough BP+HS (wich i mentioned above) or through CnD. The latter is countered by dodge, blind, block, invulnerability and out of range. Counter the CnD and cou counter stealth by preventing it completely.

Even if the thief is already stealthed, there is counterplay. No direct/hard counters, but counterplay.

Wow Paulo you went into far more detail than I was going to bother with…

To that quote I would also add in counter pressure. Dropping a bomb, necro mark, etc. around you will punish the thief when they go in for a backstab.

There is also the positioning requirement for backstab. Make it harder for the thief and try to force a frontstab through movement. Even if you’re totally out of skill options you can still try the about face button spam (this will kitten off some thieves).

You two are implying we thieves even have to use all of the skills in a row, or that we can even have a problem with positioning. There are really only 1-3 skills we use on any given weapon set, and almost never after each other. For other classes, their attacks have a cooldown, and cannot be spammed, so they end up having to use everything. While initiative is a type of cooldown, it’s very easy to bypass and all our attacks can be spammed. There really is no comparing constantly spammable moves to nonspammable moves that have high cooldowns. Also, since stealth = impossible to see in this game, positioning is near impossible not to get right, especially since Steal is a particularly good gap closer…and that people seem to freak out when somebody goes stealth.

I don’t want to sound like I’m glorifying any class here but I feel like this has to be mentioned. Thieves, backstab thieves specifically, are almost no threat outside of stealth. Factor in CC’s, revealed and general running around and on average you spend more time out of stealth. Crazy right? If stealth based thieves were revealed so much, they’d be such a laughing stock. In fact, I would think backstab, arguably the most notorious skill in the game, would need a buff just to compensate for the decrease in the amount of times available to use it, only pouring more oil into the fire. As it is now I personally think it’s fine. And that’s the necromancer me talking, although to be fair, it’s funny how a necromancer can defeat a thief purely being on the defense the entire fight. That and they are thieves, who said they had to play fair?

Aveneo.2068:

aspirine.6852:

Nova Stiker.8396:

Yet, Mesmers spamming invisibility while Phantasms blast away opponents isn’t being look at.

Backstab an issue? Try phantasms doing ~6-8k damage per attack while the Mesmer remains safely invisible.

Are you sure that 6-8k damage per attack was from the mesmer phantasm. Seems a bit high.

I’m also wondering about that because I can’t recall my phantasms reaching such numbers and they have a tendency to die when getting hit by a wet noodle. But maybe I was paying more attention to that invisible 16k CnD+Backstab macro that downs me in 0.5s

I tell you truly, I played a mesmer for months myself and I was getting attacks out of my phantasmal beserker for that much damage. I know I am late to post this but I only just read your post. Thing is that you have to trait yourself and zerker armor to get damages like this. It is possible tho.

RedSpectrum.1975:

I don’t want to sound like I’m glorifying any class here but I feel like this has to be mentioned. Thieves, backstab thieves specifically, are almost no threat outside of stealth. Factor in CC’s, revealed and general running around and on average you spend more time out of stealth. Crazy right? If stealth based thieves were revealed so much, they’d be such a laughing stock. In fact, I would think backstab, arguably the most notorious skill in the game, would need a buff just to compensate for the decrease in the amount of times available to use it, only pouring more oil into the fire. As it is now I personally think it’s fine. And that’s the necromancer me talking, although to be fair, it’s funny how a necromancer can defeat a thief purely being on the defense the entire fight. That and they are thieves, who said they had to play fair?

Its only because you dagger 2 spamming kittenbags play full glass or next to no defensive stats. Maybe if you had some more toughness you might survive longer, lol

Dynnen.6405:

RedSpectrum.1975:

I don’t want to sound like I’m glorifying any class here but I feel like this has to be mentioned. Thieves, backstab thieves specifically, are almost no threat outside of stealth. Factor in CC’s, revealed and general running around and on average you spend more time out of stealth. Crazy right? If stealth based thieves were revealed so much, they’d be such a laughing stock. In fact, I would think backstab, arguably the most notorious skill in the game, would need a buff just to compensate for the decrease in the amount of times available to use it, only pouring more oil into the fire. As it is now I personally think it’s fine. And that’s the necromancer me talking, although to be fair, it’s funny how a necromancer can defeat a thief purely being on the defense the entire fight. That and they are thieves, who said they had to play fair?

Its only because you dagger 2 spamming kittenbags play full glass or next to no defensive stats. Maybe if you had some more toughness you might survive longer, lol

Actually I use valk armor with zerk weapons zerk trinkets and beryl orbs. That is not full glass. I hate glasscannons as much as the next person. Not to mention in WvW I go 30 in Shadow Arts, our toughness tree. Thieves just don’t have the health to compensate.

RedSpectrum.1975:

Dynnen.6405:

RedSpectrum.1975:

I don’t want to sound like I’m glorifying any class here but I feel like this has to be mentioned. Thieves, backstab thieves specifically, are almost no threat outside of stealth. Factor in CC’s, revealed and general running around and on average you spend more time out of stealth. Crazy right? If stealth based thieves were revealed so much, they’d be such a laughing stock. In fact, I would think backstab, arguably the most notorious skill in the game, would need a buff just to compensate for the decrease in the amount of times available to use it, only pouring more oil into the fire. As it is now I personally think it’s fine. And that’s the necromancer me talking, although to be fair, it’s funny how a necromancer can defeat a thief purely being on the defense the entire fight. That and they are thieves, who said they had to play fair?

Its only because you dagger 2 spamming kittenbags play full glass or next to no defensive stats. Maybe if you had some more toughness you might survive longer, lol

Actually I use valk armor with zerk weapons zerk trinkets and beryl orbs. That is not full glass. I hate glasscannons as much as the next person. Not to mention in WvW I go 30 in Shadow Arts, our toughness tree. Thieves just don’t have the health to compensate.

I play a damage/tank guard, I know about having no health but I don’t have the escapability/blind spam/stealth/condi clearing/healing that you do. If it gets rough, stealth house shadow step and you’re gone. The problem is if the current state of thief had less stealth it wouldn’t work hardly at all, so to fix stealth mechanics the mesmer/thief would have to be redesigned from the ground up.

Thieves are not op as warriors

if u are a warrior and lose to a thief thats either u are really bad or thief is really well skilled player or d/p perma blind thief (I do think d/p’s perma blind is a bit op)
but other than that warriors are much more op

RyuDragnier.9476:

You two are implying we thieves even have to use all of the skills in a row, or that we can even have a problem with positioning. There are really only 1-3 skills we use on any given weapon set, and almost never after each other. For other classes, their attacks have a cooldown, and cannot be spammed, so they end up having to use everything. While initiative is a type of cooldown, it’s very easy to bypass and all our attacks can be spammed. There really is no comparing constantly spammable moves to nonspammable moves that have high cooldowns. Also, since stealth = impossible to see in this game, positioning is near impossible not to get right, especially since Steal is a particularly good gap closer…and that people seem to freak out when somebody goes stealth.

Looks like some one has never faced an opponent that knew how/when to move, but that’s a lot of players. Depends on the weapon set as far as how many you’ll be using on a regular basis. DD yea you’re not going to use all of that because dancing tagger and blossom are rubbish. DP you will be. Depends on the class/build as far as how many attacks they can use in quick repetition. Fresh air ele/eng can put out far more attacks than a thief. Not the same attack as quickly, but similar enough… and in many cases… that’s a lot better (more varied conds). What do you even mean you can bypass ini? Thief’s class mechanic steal is 900 range (less than long ranged attacks on any other class) on a 35s cd. Not as good of a gap closer as I think you’re trying to making it sound. Your last sentence is the most important part imo. The game shouldn’t be balanced around hotjoin/WvW zerglings that turn into grazing cattle when faced with stealth. I left this all in one block on purpose to replicate your post style.

MidoriMarch.8067:

Thieves are not op as warriors

if u are a warrior and lose to a thief thats either u are really bad or thief is really well skilled player or d/p perma blind thief (I do think d/p’s perma blind is a bit op)
but other than that warriors are much more op

Hambow should beat D/P. They do not just stand in the circle.

Aberrant.6749:

RyuDragnier.9476:

You two are implying we thieves even have to use all of the skills in a row, or that we can even have a problem with positioning. There are really only 1-3 skills we use on any given weapon set, and almost never after each other. For other classes, their attacks have a cooldown, and cannot be spammed, so they end up having to use everything. While initiative is a type of cooldown, it’s very easy to bypass and all our attacks can be spammed. There really is no comparing constantly spammable moves to nonspammable moves that have high cooldowns. Also, since stealth = impossible to see in this game, positioning is near impossible not to get right, especially since Steal is a particularly good gap closer…and that people seem to freak out when somebody goes stealth.

Looks like some one has never faced an opponent that knew how/when to move, but that’s a lot of players. Depends on the weapon set as far as how many you’ll be using on a regular basis. DD yea you’re not going to use all of that because dancing tagger and blossom are rubbish. DP you will be. Depends on the class/build as far as how many attacks they can use in quick repetition. Fresh air ele/eng can put out far more attacks than a thief. Not the same attack as quickly, but similar enough… and in many cases… that’s a lot better (more varied conds). What do you even mean you can bypass ini? Thief’s class mechanic steal is 900 range (less than long ranged attacks on any other class) on a 35s cd. Not as good of a gap closer as I think you’re trying to making it sound. Your last sentence is the most important part imo. The game shouldn’t be balanced around hotjoin/WvW zerglings that turn into grazing cattle when faced with stealth. I left this all in one block on purpose to replicate your post style.

Initiative regen is just under 1 per second. Add into it the multiple ways to regain initiative (Roll for Initiative, that one signet, the multiple different traits), and that so-called cooldown can be VERY VERY easy to mitigate to a bare minimum. Hell, even if you don’t spec for it, 5 seconds = 5 initiative.

Steal is in fact a good gap closer. If you’ve stealthed near an enemy, you’re most likely within that 900 range, so you get the full reach out of it. That’s why I said it’s a good gap closer while in stealth.

For the last part…that didn’t stop them from nerfing D/D ele, nerfing Ranger pets, nerfing confusion, etc.

RyuDragnier.9476:

You two are implying we thieves even have to use all of the skills in a row, or that we can even have a problem with positioning. There are really only 1-3 skills we use on any given weapon set, and almost never after each other. For other classes, their attacks have a cooldown, and cannot be spammed, so they end up having to use everything. While initiative is a type of cooldown, it’s very easy to bypass and all our attacks can be spammed.

No, thieves should not spam their skills in a row. Like I said, it was just an example to make a comparision.
I would not say that other classes have to use everything, but they are able to use everything. On some classes/specs you can literally do 12345, swap, 12345, swap…. that is what I call “mindless spamming”. You can simply use the attack, without the risk that you just locked another attack wich you really needed.

Initiative has advantages and disadvantages.
Every advantage (wich many people on the forums like to point out) has its corresponding disadvantage. Initiative allows to use the same attack 2 times in a row? Yes, but then you limited your use of the other ones.

Initiative is a great mechanic imo. The weaponsets just don’t always fit, like you already pointed out. S/D for example will almost never make use of CnD. Dancing dagger is quite underwhelming. Death blossom won’t be used on a power build, while it’s the only attack being used on a conition build.
That’s the reason why I like D/P. Not because of the easy access to stealth, but simply because every skill has its use. I really don’t care for that so called “perma stealth”, the weaponset just fells so … “complete”.

RyuDragnier.9476:

There really is no comparing constantly spammable moves to nonspammable moves that have high cooldowns.

Not sure if you meant me, but that’s just what I said:

You simply cannot calculate cooldowns for ressource based skills.
Saying something like “6 initiative is like half of your weapon skills on cooldown” it’s just to compare it a little bit, and maybe make it clear to people who don’t play thief.
12 initiative used means all your weapon skills are locked, or to compare it to other professions, all skills are on cooldown.

Meaning you can only compare it to a certain degree – without any comparision it couldn’t be balanced in any way.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Also, since stealth = impossible to see in this game, positioning is near impossible not to get right, especially since Steal is a particularly good gap closer…and that people seem to freak out when somebody goes stealth.

Not seeing an enemy doesn’t mean not being able to predict his moves. If a thief uses a 35 second cooldown skill to land a backstab, I think this is fine.
I almost only get backstabbed if an enemy thief uses his shadowsteps while in stealth, otherwise he got the jump on me.
Fighting a thief requires tactical play, knowledge of the class and practice/experience. I fought those famous WvWers which stop moving when you go stealth. I fought players on which I got exactly 0 backstabs off during a fight. I fought thieves which were never able to land a backstab on me, I fought thieves which backstabbed me to death.
This may be just my personal opinion, but I really like these kinds of fights. Unfortunately, many people don’t, and unfortunately the thief class encourages trollish behaviour i.e. a thief stealthing to escape, engaging again and never dying… hence stealth claimed to be OP. Or claimed to be “no risk”. Asides from trolling, stealth is not OP in any way.

People are approaching in a bad way, simply with the intention to nerf stealth (while having no interest in learning on how to improve their gameplay) instead of thinking about a way to change stealth without nerfing or buffing it directly. A redesign of some traits for example would be a good start.

Instead, threads pop up all the time with ridiculous proposals like the “reveal on block/evaded/invunerable” change.

Bubby.6475:

Backstab stealth builds usually had no drawbacks for missing a backstab. This was a pretty hot topic on /r/guildwars2.

Instead of just flat out revealing if you miss the backstab like /r/ suggested.

How about giving backstab a 3 second cooldown while being stealthed.

before people start complaining about burst/adrenaline having no risk, there is a risk with burst/adrenaline. It goes on CD for 8 second traited (off the top of my head).

backstab with posit req isnt easy to land, id leave it alone. aoe is risk and counter.

style.6173:

MidoriMarch.8067:

Thieves are not op as warriors

if u are a warrior and lose to a thief thats either u are really bad or thief is really well skilled player or d/p perma blind thief (I do think d/p’s perma blind is a bit op)
but other than that warriors are much more op

Hambow should beat D/P. They do not just stand in the circle.

Along with PU mesmers, Perplex Engies, kitten fire Necros, Spirit Rangers, DPS Guards, and yes even Elementalists should beat D/P thieves

There’s also no risk for missing burst skills. Oh no, you poor baby, you get 8 more seconds of 3-bar adrenal health before you can try to burst out of no-where again. Not to mention backstab can be greatly mitigate simply by spinning around fast after 2 seconds of stealth.

I played pvp for the first year of playing this game only and went from guard to thief which is now my main. Last 2 months iv WvW allot and i feel like thats where most these complaints come from. Comming from pvp 7/10 fights in WvW are a joke i can run d/d and hit almost every CnD cause people dont realize it should be dodged for some reason. Once i stealth normally people will move but its some little cirlce with there back pointed at me the whole time and the just wait.

There is plenty risk to playing a thief, i normally destroy them on any of my alts. Even a “balanced” thief will still only take a few hits before being down. Stealth may completely take us out of visual sight but were still there, and were trying to run behind you, all in 3 sec typically. Honestly on my alts its normally easier and my tactic to kill the thief in stealth as opposed to when hes evading around me spamming blinds.

Each class has good ways of fending off a thiefs initial burst and then taking the advantage. Waiting for us to reappear when we stealth is not one of them.

RedSpectrum.1975:

Cynz.9437:

man, looking at all this posts one would assume stealth lasts like 3 hours and backstab hits for 17k dmg + thief in stealth is invulnerable and has stability

what kind of build is it? i want it O.o

It’s that 30/30/30/30/30 build that’s out didn’t you hear?

OMG! guide pl0x! :-D

To Splatter Paw,

" "Each class has good ways of fending off a thiefs initial burst and then taking the advantage* "

Please demonstrate this wonder (in video format), where each class has a good way of fending off thieves initial bursts.

Also

Please explain these to me.

Thanks!

Burnfall.9573:

To Splatter Paw,

" "Each class has good ways of fending off a thiefs initial burst and then taking the advantage* "

Please demonstrate this wonder (in video format), where each class has a good way of fending off thieves initial bursts.

Also

Please explain these to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCX372Pic4o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=879m6bAxpNo

Thanks!

That first guy shouold die from anything weaker than a fart. Look at his armor and health.

Burnfall.9573:

To Splatter Paw,

" "Each class has good ways of fending off a thiefs initial burst and then taking the advantage* "

Please demonstrate this wonder (in video format), where each class has a good way of fending off thieves initial bursts.

Also

Please explain these to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCX372Pic4o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=879m6bAxpNo

Thanks!

Simply put, blocks and blinds. They will royally screw up a thief’s burst. Or even just randomly turning around a few seconds after stealth. Also, using examples of coming across unsuspecting(and possibly undergeared/upleveled) people is not really applicable to everyone. Obviously the people making the video wanted to showcase thief burst, meaning they’re not gonna include the people that survive the burst or kill them, making it a biased source.

Burnfall.9573:

To Splatter Paw,

" "Each class has good ways of fending off a thiefs initial burst and then taking the advantage* "

Please demonstrate this wonder (in video format), where each class has a good way of fending off thieves initial bursts.

Also

Please explain these to me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCX372Pic4o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=879m6bAxpNo
Thanks!

Since those videos have been made, assassin’s signet has been nerfed so hard into the ground that I haven’t seen anyone using it in months, mug has been nerfed to never crit, and cloak and dagger took a 33% damage nerf. Oh, the elite is also stun-breakable now, making it only useful for use with runes of lyssa.

Can’t wait for you to reply back trying to invalidate my post based on me not having a video off-hand.

We should take all the people who hate on thieves, and push them somewhere else!
(Patrick Star quote)

Paulo.8459:

A counterexample: (D/D set)
You use: heartseeker->death blossom->dancing dagger->cloak and dagger.
That’s 3+4+3+5=15 initiative. (Base pool is 12)
That means you cannot even use all your skills in a row like other professions.

You simply cannot calculate cooldowns for ressource based skills.
Saying something like “6 initiative is like half of your weapon skills on cooldown” it’s just to compare it a little bit, and maybe make it clear to people who don’t play thief.
12 initiative used means all your weapon skills are locked, or to compare it to other professions, all skills are on cooldown.

Actually, you can use all those d/d skills in a row. Initiative regenerates constantly; initiative is coming back every second while you are using skills. It takes more than 3 seconds to activate all those skills, so you have more than enough initiative to use all your skills in a row. Unlike other professions, using all your skills on one weapon in a row has a “cooldown” of 12 seconds without any traits that increase initiative regen. What do ya know, somebody defending their class conveniently forgets some details about how it works.

Yeah, initiative can’t be accurately compared to cooldowns because cooldowns aren’t in the player’s control. Cooldowns force you to save important skills with long cooldowns for the right situation. Using a defensive cooldown can leave you without that skill for 20 or 30 seconds. Assuming zero initiative, a thief can use a stealth, evade or mobility skill again in a third or a fifth of that time. Again, that assumes zero initiative and no regen trait, a worst case scenario.

I’m not complaining; I beat the vast majority of thieves I encounter. I’m just saying initiative is a profession mechanic. It wasn’t given to thieves to be fair and equivalent with other professions. Initiative is simply better than cooldowns. Nobody except other deluded thieves buys this “woe is the thief and his initiative” bit.

Rottaran Owain.6789:

Burnfall.9573:

To Splatter Paw,

" "Each class has good ways of fending off a thiefs initial burst and then taking the advantage* "

Please demonstrate this wonder (in video format), where each class has a good way of fending off thieves initial bursts.

Also

Please explain these to me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCX372Pic4o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=879m6bAxpNo
Thanks!

Since those videos have been made, assassin’s signet has been nerfed so hard into the ground that I haven’t seen anyone using it in months, mug has been nerfed to never crit, and cloak and dagger took a 33% damage nerf. Oh, the elite is also stun-breakable now, making it only useful for use with runes of lyssa.

Can’t wait for you to reply back trying to invalidate my post based on me not having a video off-hand.

Ok

(Thieves are always in denial, even when presented with the Truth) common thieves! make my dream come truth; admit you are OP

Here the Truth, with Proof

Truth

The Nerf to Assassin was released in October 22, 2012
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Update-Notes-October-22-2012

" Assassin’s Signet: This skill has been updated to grant 15% damage for 5 attacks rather than 50% damage for one attack "

The video was posted on Feb 2, 2013
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=879m6bAxpNo

The video was posted on Dec 8, 2013
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCX372Pic4o

Any more validation to the Truth??

Burnfall.9573:

Rottaran Owain.6789:

Burnfall.9573:

To Splatter Paw,

" "Each class has good ways of fending off a thiefs initial burst and then taking the advantage* "

Please demonstrate this wonder (in video format), where each class has a good way of fending off thieves initial bursts.

Also

Please explain these to me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCX372Pic4o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=879m6bAxpNo
Thanks!

Since those videos have been made, assassin’s signet has been nerfed so hard into the ground that I haven’t seen anyone using it in months, mug has been nerfed to never crit, and cloak and dagger took a 33% damage nerf. Oh, the elite is also stun-breakable now, making it only useful for use with runes of lyssa.

Can’t wait for you to reply back trying to invalidate my post based on me not having a video off-hand.

Ok

(Thieves are always in denial, even when presented with the Truth) common thieves! make my dream come truth; admit you are OP

Here the Truth, with Proof

Truth

The Nerf to Assassin was released in October 22, 2012
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Update-Notes-October-22-2012

" Assassin’s Signet: This skill has been updated to grant 15% damage for 5 attacks rather than 50% damage for one attack "

The video was posted on Feb 2, 2013
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=879m6bAxpNo

The video was posted on Dec 8, 2013
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCX372Pic4o

Any more validation to the Truth??

So your counter to his argument was to prove one of the nerfs happened before one of the videos, then ignore the other points and continue to post more videos that really can’t prove much seeing as I highly doubt the maker would include players that kill them or times when they die because their goal was to showcase thief burst?

Seems to me like you’re just selectively reading so that you can use the same argument over and over despite what anyone says then just stop paying attention when confronted with arguments that can’t be countered by posting any old videos on youtube.

Tei.1704:

Paulo.8459:

A counterexample: (D/D set)
You use: heartseeker->death blossom->dancing dagger->cloak and dagger.
That’s 3+4+3+5=15 initiative. (Base pool is 12)
That means you cannot even use all your skills in a row like other professions.

You simply cannot calculate cooldowns for ressource based skills.
Saying something like “6 initiative is like half of your weapon skills on cooldown” it’s just to compare it a little bit, and maybe make it clear to people who don’t play thief.
12 initiative used means all your weapon skills are locked, or to compare it to other professions, all skills are on cooldown.

Actually, you can use all those d/d skills in a row. Initiative regenerates constantly; initiative is coming back every second while you are using skills. It takes more than 3 seconds to activate all those skills, so you have more than enough initiative to use all your skills in a row.

I like how you snipped my quote. It actually was:

A counterexample: (D/D set)
You use: heartseeker->death blossom->dancing dagger->cloak and dagger.
That’s 3+4+3+5=15 initiative. (Base pool is 12)
That means you cannot even use all your skills in a row like other professions.
Weapon swap to shortbow
Clusterbomb->disabling shot->choking gas->infiltrators arrow.
3+4+4+6=17 initiative. (Remember, you are still left with -3)

Note that weapon swap. But what do ya know, somebody attacking a class conveniently forgets some details about how it works.
Of course initiative regenerates over time, i didn’t want to make it too complicated, so I missed that point.
Skill 2-5 on D/D take a total of 2 seconds to cast. Still 1 initiative missing.

Tei.1704:

What do ya know, somebody defending their class conveniently forgets some details about how it works.

As do people crying about a class. I didn’t make this on purpose, thanks for your addition. My other points however are still valid. For example this one:

Paulo.8459:

Initiative has advantages and disadvantages.
Every advantage (wich many people on the forums like to point out) has its corresponding disadvantage. Initiative allows to use the same attack 2 times in a row? Yes, but then you limited your use of the other ones.

Referring to this:

Yeah, initiative can’t be accurately compared to cooldowns because cooldowns aren’t in the player’s control. Cooldowns force you to save important skills with long cooldowns for the right situation. Using a defensive cooldown can leave you without that skill for 20 or 30 seconds.

Advantage: initiative is under player’s control. (Well… you can control it.)
Disadvantage: initiative is under player’s control. (You have to make decisions during a fight and you might mess it up.)

Advantage: You can potentially use an important skill multiple times, without waiting 30 seconds.
Disadvantage: You may lock this important skill even by using another attack.

Tei.1704:

Assuming zero initiative, a thief can use a stealth, evade or mobility skill again in a third or a fifth of that time. Again, that assumes zero initiative and no regen trait, a worst case scenario.

Assuming other classes have everything on cooldown, they can also use utility skills. Or simply switch to another weapon. Like I already said.
Assuming zero initiative regenerating traits = assuming zero cooldown reduction traits.

Another point: thieves don’t have weaponskills comparable to a 30-45 seconds cooldown. Imagine a meteor shower or reaper’s mark? How many initiative would they cost? Way too much. Such skills don’t belong to thief weapons.
Again, this can be advantage and disadvantage.

Tei.1704:

I’m not complaining; I beat the vast majority of thieves I encounter. I’m just saying initiative is a profession mechanic. It wasn’t given to thieves to be fair and equivalent with other professions. Initiative is simply better than cooldowns. Nobody except other deluded thieves buys this “woe is the thief and his initiative” bit.

Initiative is not simply better. I said it multiple times, every advantage has its corresponding disadvantage.
Even if it was a little better, it is no where near OP as many people claim it to be. All they see is “that teef using HS 3 times in a row!! Skillless spam OP! NURF!11”

Thanks for calling me a deluded thief, this doesn’t make your argument more valid.
I play every professions and personally I find cooldowns to be much easier to use.
This is my personal opinion, others might feel otherwise. I wouldn’t call them deluded.

The more this goes on though I’m realizing arguing this is a lost cause. Just from glancing at your recent posts Burnfall, you seem to have some delusional idea that thieves should “play fair” by not using stealth and that all thieves are ruthless, child eating monsters. Just copying a description from the thief wiki,

“Thieves are expert in the shadow arts. They utilize stealth and shadowsteps to surprise and to get close to their target. They’re deadly in one-on-one combat using their agility, acrobatic fighting style, and the ability to steal to overcome their enemies. They have an affinity for setting traps and using venom”

What, if anything, about that description would suggest to you that thieves are supposed to be “fair” fighters. This is the type of class that utilizes tricks, traps and other forms of underhanded skills to gain an edge or throw their opponent for a loop. But ya, I’m sure we should just nerf all those skills and turn thieves into low hp, low armor class with the mobility of a necromancer who couldn’t maneuver their way out of a paper bag.

As I recall, dhuumfire is getting nerfed again because it’s overused and has no counterplay. How is backstab not the exact same thing?

Necrotize.2974:

The more this goes on though I’m realizing arguing this is a lost cause. Just from glancing at your recent posts Burnfall, you seem to have some delusional idea that thieves should “play fair” by not using stealth and that all thieves are ruthless, child eating monsters. Just copying a description from the thief wiki,

“Thieves are expert in the shadow arts. They utilize stealth and shadowsteps to surprise and to get close to their target. They’re deadly in one-on-one combat using their agility, acrobatic fighting style, and the ability to steal to overcome their enemies. They have an affinity for setting traps and using venom”

What, if anything, about that description would suggest to you that thieves are supposed to be “fair” fighters. This is the type of class that utilizes tricks, traps and other forms of underhanded skills to gain an edge or throw their opponent for a loop. But ya, I’m sure we should just nerf all those skills and turn thieves into low hp, low armor class with the mobility of a necromancer who couldn’t maneuver their way out of a paper bag.

please! take a look at this and explain to me what “skills” do thieves have and use?

and this one…

Burnfall.9573:

Necrotize.2974:

The more this goes on though I’m realizing arguing this is a lost cause. Just from glancing at your recent posts Burnfall, you seem to have some delusional idea that thieves should “play fair” by not using stealth and that all thieves are ruthless, child eating monsters. Just copying a description from the thief wiki,

“Thieves are expert in the shadow arts. They utilize stealth and shadowsteps to surprise and to get close to their target. They’re deadly in one-on-one combat using their agility, acrobatic fighting style, and the ability to steal to overcome their enemies. They have an affinity for setting traps and using venom”

What, if anything, about that description would suggest to you that thieves are supposed to be “fair” fighters. This is the type of class that utilizes tricks, traps and other forms of underhanded skills to gain an edge or throw their opponent for a loop. But ya, I’m sure we should just nerf all those skills and turn thieves into low hp, low armor class with the mobility of a necromancer who couldn’t maneuver their way out of a paper bag.

please! take a look at this and explain to me what “skills” do thieves have and use?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTSlULPN768

You really do enjoy videos don’t you. Then I’m sure noticed the intro where he said, and I quote “the following video contains strategies that only work against people who are terrible at this game”. Heartseeker spam is hardly effective play, especially since the auto attack does more dps above 50% health anyway. Terrible players will get hit by the thief then start trying to run away. All you really accomplish by doing that is giving them an easy backstab. But you know, heartseeker spam in a video over a year old against terrible players must prove you’re right.

Maybe instead of scouring youtube for videos of thieves you should actually articulate your arguments yourself. It would definitely make it seem more convincing than just posting any video you can find with a thief killing people. But I suppose you’ll respond with yet another video that I won’t need to watch because honestly 90% of people who play thieves have seen those videos already.

Edit:Just saw the second video you posted. I’m guessing you also missed the part where he was laughing and pointed out it was a zerg full of uplevels. I don’t think a single video you’ve posted refutes any of the points anyone makes, it just shifts the conversation to yet another topic so you can post even more videos.

But I guess I’ll just ignore the fact that you’ve yet to address more than a single point I’ve made so far…

Necrotize.2974:

Burnfall.9573:

Necrotize.2974:

The more this goes on though I’m realizing arguing this is a lost cause. Just from glancing at your recent posts Burnfall, you seem to have some delusional idea that thieves should “play fair” by not using stealth and that all thieves are ruthless, child eating monsters. Just copying a description from the thief wiki,

“Thieves are expert in the shadow arts. They utilize stealth and shadowsteps to surprise and to get close to their target. They’re deadly in one-on-one combat using their agility, acrobatic fighting style, and the ability to steal to overcome their enemies. They have an affinity for setting traps and using venom”

What, if anything, about that description would suggest to you that thieves are supposed to be “fair” fighters. This is the type of class that utilizes tricks, traps and other forms of underhanded skills to gain an edge or throw their opponent for a loop. But ya, I’m sure we should just nerf all those skills and turn thieves into low hp, low armor class with the mobility of a necromancer who couldn’t maneuver their way out of a paper bag.

please! take a look at this and explain to me what “skills” do thieves have and use?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTSlULPN768

You really do enjoy videos don’t you. Then I’m sure noticed the intro where he said, and I quote “the following video contains strategies that only work against people who are terrible at this game”. Heartseeker spam is hardly effective play, especially since the auto attack does more dps above 50% health anyway. Terrible players will get hit by the thief then start trying to run away. All you really accomplish by doing that is giving them an easy backstab. But you know, heartseeker spam in a video over a year old against terrible players must prove you’re right.

Maybe instead of scouring youtube for videos of thieves you should actually articulate your arguments yourself. It would definitely make it seem more convincing than just posting any video you can find with a thief killing people. But I suppose you’ll respond with yet another video that I won’t need to watch because honestly 90% of people who play thieves have seen those videos already.

Edit:Just saw the second video you posted. I’m guessing you also missed the part where he was laughing and pointed out it was a zerg full of uplevels. I don’t think a single video you’ve posted refutes any of the points anyone makes, it just shifts the conversation to yet another topic so you can post even more videos.

First of all; any, every thieves players are entitled to post their game play videos on youtube anytime they want, as much they want

What law prevents them from doing so?
What rule prevent them from doing so?
Why are you offended of them doing so?
Why are you restricting them from doing so?
They are Free to post any video of their game play they please, and want
Are they under an Enslavement and Tyrannic ruling ?
Why do you want to take away their Rights?
Why do you want to take away their Freedom?
Are they “less of a player” for posting their game play videos on you tube?

Second of all, the reason why they are laughing and mocking the other classes.. why not ?

Isn’t that what thieves do anyways for being an almost zero skill, no risk, high rewardspam Op class?

I would do just the same, if i was them.

What on earth are you talking about…
I never once said thieves shouldn’t be allowed to post their videos or that it bothered me. What bothers me is you posting their videos as “evidence” of whatever point you think you’re making without actually arguing anything. I never insulted the people in the videos, in fact I used their own words to point out why the videos don’t prove you right.

You make blatant assumption and call thieves OP without providing any evidence supported reasoning and then the minute you post a video saying it proves your point you ignore any and all evidence within the video that proves you wrong.

Its like I’m talking to a person who is only reading every other word in a sentence. I think we’re done here, unless you care to provide some actual evidence that thieves are no-skill, OP spammers against anyone other than brain dead players or are just plain terrible at pvp.

It’s like the minute I say something logical that requires refutation, you spring off on some weird self-righteous tangent about nothing that anyone was talking about.

Although I starting to get a sinking feeling I’ve been trolled. If so, well done. If not, I suggest you play a thief yourself instead of just watching every youtube video with the tags “thief”.

Necrotize.2974:

What on earth are you talking about…
I never once said thieves shouldn’t be allowed to post their videos or that it bothered me. What bothers me is you posting their videos as “evidence” of whatever point you think you’re making without actually arguing anything. I never insulted the people in the videos, in fact I used their own words to point out why the videos don’t prove you right.

You make blatant assumption and call thieves OP without providing any evidence supported reasoning and then the minute you post a video saying it proves your point you ignore any and all evidence within the video that proves you wrong.

Its like I’m talking to a person who is only reading every other word in a sentence. I think we’re done here, unless you care to provide some actual evidence that thieves are no-skill, OP spammers against anyone other than brain dead players or are just plain terrible at pvp.

It’s like the minute I say something logical that requires refutation, you spring off on some weird self-righteous tangent about nothing that anyone was talking about.

Although I starting to get a sinking feeling I’ve been trolled. If so, well done. If not, I suggest you play a thief yourself instead of just watching every youtube video with the tags “thief”.

You didn’t get trolled, you got Burnfall’d.
He really, really hates thieves, and is pretty unswayable on the subject.

P Fun Daddy.1208:

Necrotize.2974:

What on earth are you talking about…
I never once said thieves shouldn’t be allowed to post their videos or that it bothered me. What bothers me is you posting their videos as “evidence” of whatever point you think you’re making without actually arguing anything. I never insulted the people in the videos, in fact I used their own words to point out why the videos don’t prove you right.

You make blatant assumption and call thieves OP without providing any evidence supported reasoning and then the minute you post a video saying it proves your point you ignore any and all evidence within the video that proves you wrong.

Its like I’m talking to a person who is only reading every other word in a sentence. I think we’re done here, unless you care to provide some actual evidence that thieves are no-skill, OP spammers against anyone other than brain dead players or are just plain terrible at pvp.

It’s like the minute I say something logical that requires refutation, you spring off on some weird self-righteous tangent about nothing that anyone was talking about.

Although I starting to get a sinking feeling I’ve been trolled. If so, well done. If not, I suggest you play a thief yourself instead of just watching every youtube video with the tags “thief”.

You didn’t get trolled, you got Burnfall’d.
He really, really hates thieves, and is pretty unswayable on the subject.

I figured as much after I looked at his other posts regarding thieves but I just had to test it out for myself.