Guild Wars 2

It seems a certain percentage of the community believes thief is broken with their defensive system stealth and evasion. Another percentage believes thief just surprises non-experienced players.

So to end all those post of stating your minds and debating why don’t you just prove it. Those who believes the defensive system is broken what could be possibly replace stealth or evasion or anyway provide the class with cleansing,regen and sustainability which all classes should have and of course to not erase the CLASS ROLE and not being tied to any specific weapon.

Keep in mind the RISK AND REWARD CONCEPT ex: a zerker ele kills faster and has a better sustain system than a zerker war because of armor and health but a zerker guard is closer to the ele’s potential because of lower health than a war. The same applies to condition damage.

PS: I play thief and fought all of the class’ specs and so far I am not on the broken side. What you propose will not actually happen neither have more than a minimal chance of being considered.

Thief is not the best class of the game, but in some situations it’s the class that survive better: World versus World!!!
In spvp there’s little spaces and you need to hold the point, that’s why the hide ability of the thief can be countered by AoE skills. In pve you can save yourself, but is better a good damage than a thief in hide.
In wvsw you can wear berserker equip, run everywhere you want and kill every ranger-ele-mesmer or berserker build classes that you see youst whit 2-3 skills. And if you don’t win you can hide yourself for 10+ sec and run away whit a 75% of speed (signettrait), healing yourself by a large amount and cleaning conditions. Then you can come batk to kill your enemy. If you don’t kill your enemy, just run away in stealt and try again.
A thief, expecially in wvsw, can really be unkillable and kill a lot of enemy all alone.
Ok, you can’t run into a zerg screaming and hitting like a warrior or a guardian, but you can quickly kill all the enemy that stay in range away from the zerg.
Stealth+high passive movement speed+skills that grant high movement speed (shortbow, for example)healing and cleaning conditions while in stealthvery high skill damage. And the thief ckittene a large variety of weapons, traits and utility. If you think that the thief is bounded to a weapon try the guardian…
D/D, Shortbow, Sword/dagger, Sword/pistol, dagger/pistol, pistol/pistol, etc. You can combine all your weapons and be a good class, whit all good and different playstiles and builds.

Thief isn’t the best class ever, you have a role that grant you the ability to be a roamer and a finger in the a** for all the player you find, but you don’t give support, don’t give heal to allies and die quickly (if you’re not a defensive build).

But yes: the thief ckittene the Best defensive ability ever!
Who can kill you if he don’t know where you are? And don’t know that you’re behind he, ready to kill he whit a backstab and 3 hit?

Regen, defensive skills, clean conditions, all good strategy and skills to survive longer, but whit a thief you don’t need to spent traits in defensive abilities why no one can hit you!

You only need a little of practice and know what enemy to attack, then you’re a killing machine ready to make all your wvsw enemies spam insults in the chat XD

There’s nothing inherently wrong with stealth in this game. The issue is how often Thieves can stealth and the mechanics behind obtaining stealth. There’s also a lack of counters to stealth.

Take dagger off-hand for example. Nothing wrong with it overall (hitting walls and timing cnd to the fraction of a second withstanding). Most don’t complain about it and it’s more of a skill based weapon overall. Contrast this to Pistol offhand with its leap finisher and pulsing blind field and all the problems it creates.

On top of this you have the initiative system that is supposed to be a limiting factor but regens so quickly that most thieves can get by ignoring the mechanic entirely and just spamming a button until it eventually works.

IMO…

Remove the bulk of initiative regen traits.
Change Pistol 5 by either (these aren’t necessarily ideal options)
-Make it a dark field instead of smoke.
-Make smoke leap finishers blind or weakness.
-Swap Dark and Smoke leap finishers.

With these changes stealth use would be far more tolerable imo but would also leave the Thief fairly weak or, worse still, simply push everyone into the ‘no stealth’ sword+whatever sets which are already dominating the game (which are very powerful largely because initiative regen is so high). Chances are the Thief would need to be compensated. How? I honestly don’t know…

Atherakhia.4086:

There’s nothing inherently wrong with stealth in this game. The issue is how often Thieves can stealth and the mechanics behind obtaining stealth. There’s also a lack of counters to stealth.

Take dagger off-hand for example. Nothing wrong with it overall (hitting walls and timing cnd to the fraction of a second withstanding). Most don’t complain about it and it’s more of a skill based weapon overall. Contrast this to Pistol offhand with its leap finisher and pulsing blind field and all the problems it creates.

On top of this you have the initiative system that is supposed to be a limiting factor but regens so quickly that most thieves can get by ignoring the mechanic entirely and just spamming a button until it eventually works.

IMO…

Remove the bulk of initiative regen traits.
Change Pistol 5 by either (these aren’t necessarily ideal options)
-Make it a dark field instead of smoke.
-Make smoke leap finishers blind or weakness.
-Swap Dark and Smoke leap finishers.

With these changes stealth use would be far more tolerable imo but would also leave the Thief fairly weak or, worse still, simply push everyone into the ‘no stealth’ sword+whatever sets which are already dominating the game (which are very powerful largely because initiative regen is so high). Chances are the Thief would need to be compensated. How? I honestly don’t know…

Traps and venoms that don’t suck, and maybe traits that can do auto-venoms/traps for more build diversity?

Honestly, I feel like this is one of the better answers, limiting our ability to combo-stealth and replacing it with something more survivable. Without combo stealths, the stealth builds are still quite viable as a stealth defense. I generally use P/D or D/D stealth builds if I’m playing stealth, and find that I never feel pressured to slot smoke fields for survivability.

Currently I’m playing evasion/malice D/D and I use shadow refuge more often for the dark field than the stealth. If I get teamed up with a well necro I’m practially invincible as I combo a ton of heals with deathblossom, dancing dagger and shortbow auto Initiative and the thief’s several sources of stacking on hit heals make them really great at using dark fields for sustain, and giving them more dark fields on shorter cooldowns would provide an interesting option.

It also might be a good idea to rework black powder shot from a pulsing blind field to a single shot blind+projectile blocking dark field. This would make it synergise much better with more primary weapons while limiting spammability of stealth on D/P, yet still allowing D/P to be viable as a hit and run set, while not allowing it to spam stealth more effectively than the more risky and balanced D/D stealth specs.

Basically, if BPS worked this way you could:

Sustain better in P/P by unloading through it.
Make D/P less reliant on stealth.
Use it exactly the same to cover yourself with S/P
Have a powerful support tool for group fights on all */P builds

Removing the smoke field in d/p will essentially turn d/p into a weak melee version of p/p. you lose your main source of damage because you can’t stealth for backstabs, and you have no evades on that weapon set. So basically the only thing you can do is gap close and maybe hope that your opponent is stupid enough to stand in black powder while you try to auto attack them to death. Is this what you guys are proposing?

Thief lacks passive defense i.e passive regen, consistent access to regen boon and no access to protect boon. They also have medium armor and a low tier health pool.

From one perspective what Sagat is saying is true, but from another it looks like this:

Passive defenses:

• High armor rating can be combated with vulnerability. It only shaves off damage, lich form with 3400 armor still hits for 5k.

• Block has unblockable skills in place to counter balance it

• Passive regens can be combated with poison, like wise the regen boon

• Defensive boons such as protection, aegis, regen can be stolen or corrupted

Every passive defense has a counter measure set in place so it does not become too powerful.

Here is a look at active defenses:

Active Defenses

• Dodge has a endurance meter in place to prevent excess spamming, like wise weakness is in place to counter act endurance.

• Evade has no counter

The difference is huge between passive defense and active defense. To avoid damage entirely is the highest form of mitigation any class can have. So technically thief has the highest achievable mitigation in the game, its greater than high armor rating, greater than block, greater than passive regens.

The only problem it has is that you have to actively do it, which means if you don’t you go splat quickly. But as it stands thief has a very high and controllable rate of which they ckittene their active defense. Due to the initiative system not being bound to static cooldowns like the other seven classes.

Even with the highest armor, a guardian will become squishy if they go zerk. A thief on the other hand will not become squishy because of active defenses. Passive defensives scale with stats, active defenses do not and evade has no counter balance like the rest of the defenses in game.

I feel the solution is to simply introduce skills that bypass evade. This is my opinion, I’m sure others will differ.

Aza.2105:

Thief lacks passive defense i.e passive regen, consistent access to regen boon and no access to protect boon. They also have medium armor and a low tier health pool.

From one perspective what Sagat is saying is true, but from another it looks like this:

Passive defenses:

• High armor rating can be combated with vulnerability. It only shaves off damage, lich form with 3400 armor still hits for 5k.

• Block has unblockable skills in place to counter balance it

• Passive regens can be combated with poison, like wise the regen boon

• Defensive boons such as protection, aegis, regen can be stolen or corrupted

Every passive defense has a counter measure set in place so it does not become too powerful.

Here is a look at active defenses:

Active Defenses

• Dodge has a endurance meter in place to prevent excess spamming, like wise weakness is in place to counter act endurance.

• Evade has no counter

The difference is huge between passive defense and active defense. To avoid damage entirely is the highest form of mitigation any class can have. So technically thief has the highest achievable mitigation in the game, its greater than high armor rating, greater than block, greater than passive regens.

The only problem it has is that you have to actively do it, which means if you don’t you go splat quickly. But as it stands thief has a very high and controllable rate of which they ckittene their active defense. Due to the initiative system not being bound to static cooldowns like the other seven classes.

Even with the highest armor, a guardian will become squishy if they go zerk. A thief on the other hand will not become squishy because of active defenses. Passive defensives scale with stats, active defenses do not and evade has no counter balance like the rest of the defenses in game.

I feel the solution is to simply introduce skills that bypass evade. This is my opinion, I’m sure others will differ.

You are missing invulnerabilities that negates damage to your hp which every class except thieves has access to. Also, thieves are not the only class with evades. Thief evades on weapon sets are also limited by the amount of initiative they have to prevent excess spamming, just like how endurance works for dodge. Lastly, there is an opportunity cost to active defenses. What you lose out by engaging in active defense is opportunity to do something else like interrupting your opponent or healing for example, something that passive defenses hardly ever have to worry about.

Shinjo.6092:

Removing the smoke field in d/p will essentially turn d/p into a weak melee version of p/p. you lose your main source of damage because you can’t stealth for backstabs, and you have no evades on that weapon set. So basically the only thing you can do is gap close and maybe hope that your opponent is stupid enough to stand in black powder while you try to auto attack them to death. Is this what you guys are proposing?

Expecting every thief set to be a full burst DPS set is critically flawed thinking. D/D is that set. D/P is, looking purely at the skills, a harassment and survivability spec built for chasing and finishing targets. It’s got two gap closers, a spammable interrupt, and what should be a powerful defensive field that is in reality a really horrible defensive field.

We’re suggesting making that defensive field in to something worth a kitten so that P/D actually has a unique purpose that doesn’t rely on abuse of unintuitive and broken crap like “look at the floor and hit 5>2 to stealth, then make sure not to use your two gap closers and in stead run to your target to backstab”

The change that I proposed gives D/P the ability to actually effectively fulfill its role as the king of all stompers. in fact, adding more damage to D/P 3 would be a great idea to go along with said change, making it a more effective DPS source to get the target in to the sweet spot for heartseekers.

Does that make more sense?

It seems the problem comes down the weapon set. It’s true that D/P uses stealth for it’s for it’s damage with or without SA and the initiative cost to HS through BP with no guarantee of your enemy being in range becomes annoying and most likely leading to gap close with Shadow Shot or using it to remain in stealth to survive.

Reducing or removing initiative gain while getting in stealth will affect x/D specs since CnD is predictable and heavy costing which comes down to another problem : not everyone should have to go Trickery to make for it thus justifying the initiative gain entering or staying in stealth. Glass thief has to be possible with a ideal sustain system for a medium armor class but judging the lack of AoE damage on the sets stealth seems to make up for it or forcing you to have SB for retreat in case of danger.

The dark field idea on BP can only work with a high DPS combo finisher projectile but Shadow Shot doesn’t serve that role. Another idea could be making one source of damage more rewarding then the other which should be basic : AA and the others skills. Having no CD on weapon skills is unique to us but has biased effect.

Keep in mind that the “tank” thief should still be possible as it is on any class.

Sagat.3285:

It seems the problem comes down the weapon set. It’s true that D/P uses stealth for it’s for it’s damage with or without SA and the initiative cost to HS through BP with no guarantee of your enemy being in range becomes annoying and most likely leading to gap close with Shadow Shot or using it to remain in stealth to survive.

Reducing or removing initiative gain while getting in stealth will affect x/D specs since CnD is predictable and heavy costing which comes down to another problem : not everyone should have to go Trickery to make for it thus justifying the initiative gain entering or staying in stealth. Glass thief has to be possible with a ideal sustain system for a medium armor class but judging the lack of AoE damage on the sets stealth seems to make up for it or forcing you to have SB for retreat in case of danger.

The dark field idea on BP can only work with a high DPS combo finisher projectile but Shadow Shot doesn’t serve that role. Another idea could be making one source of damage more rewarding then the other which should be basic : AA and the others skills. Having no CD on weapon skills is unique to us but has biased effect.

Keep in mind that the “tank” thief should still be possible as it is on any class.

This is why I reccommend changing black powder to a projectile block/dark field rather than pulsing blind. it means you can effectively use it against intelligent opponents that would walk out of it, you can add blinds to your HS for excellent finishing potential, use it to support allies and cover stomps better, get enhanced sustain from headshot or daggerstorm, and get much better mileage out of it in its intended role as a damage mitigating defensive field rather then just using it for stealths and stupid people.

Combine this with better damage on D/P 3 and you’d have a set that could be built a lot more glassy and trait either evasion or stealth and still have good sustain, and have a nice bag of support and chasing ability.

PopeUrban.2578:

Sagat.3285:

It seems the problem comes down the weapon set. It’s true that D/P uses stealth for it’s for it’s damage with or without SA and the initiative cost to HS through BP with no guarantee of your enemy being in range becomes annoying and most likely leading to gap close with Shadow Shot or using it to remain in stealth to survive.

Reducing or removing initiative gain while getting in stealth will affect x/D specs since CnD is predictable and heavy costing which comes down to another problem : not everyone should have to go Trickery to make for it thus justifying the initiative gain entering or staying in stealth. Glass thief has to be possible with a ideal sustain system for a medium armor class but judging the lack of AoE damage on the sets stealth seems to make up for it or forcing you to have SB for retreat in case of danger.

The dark field idea on BP can only work with a high DPS combo finisher projectile but Shadow Shot doesn’t serve that role. Another idea could be making one source of damage more rewarding then the other which should be basic : AA and the others skills. Having no CD on weapon skills is unique to us but has biased effect.

Keep in mind that the “tank” thief should still be possible as it is on any class.

This is why I reccommend changing black powder to a projectile block/dark field rather than pulsing blind. it means you can effectively use it against intelligent opponents that would walk out of it, you can add blinds to your HS for excellent finishing potential, use it to support allies and cover stomps better, get enhanced sustain from headshot or daggerstorm, and get much better mileage out of it in its intended role as a damage mitigating defensive field rather then just using it for stealths and stupid people.

Combine this with better damage on D/P 3 and you’d have a set that could be built a lot more glassy and trait either evasion or stealth and still have good sustain, and have a nice bag of support and chasing ability.

Kind of make sense I can see it working also P/P making Unload not just a spam skill. That seems to go in good direction if anyone has anything to add about that help your self. Personally a emerging problem I see is the limited cleansing. An idea I had was to make evade rewarding in Acro since I think SA is fine even tough Last Refuge can endanger you.

Traits Idea:
- Successful evade removes 1 condition 8 sec CD instead of Pain Response
-Traps gets a second charge and transfer a condition on activation instead of Fleet of Foot (Of course then knockdown form Trip Wire would be 2 sec instead of 3, 2 sec of immobilization instead of 3 on Needle Trap,increase HP but decrease damage of summoned thieves on Ambush and making Shadow Trap a double stun-breaker like Shadowstep. This way I"believe" the thief can feel rewarded having to be in melee relying on non-aoe trap. )

Then comes S/D an awkward set for having dagger off-hand but not recognized for it’s stealth attack but rather the sync with the Acro trait line or simply for evasion. From my point of view I believe removing damage form Flanking Striking and adding it to Larcenous Strike can solve many things however I have seen some S/D using SA lately.

I agree that thieves desparately need a proper dodge-based condition clear in the acrobatics line, and that pain response is too situational to be useful. I use a D/D evasion build, and in theory it should be either a high skillcap/high reward single target melee build, or a high sustain low DPS condition build. It would be totally reasonable to make the trait only clear the conditions that fleet of foot does not, and adding torment/freezing removal to fleet of foot (since it’s supposed to remove movement restricting conditions, and is a master trait) thus requiring the thief to take both if he wants full coverage.

my current version of the build, using the new critical strikes trait is a high sustain, hybrid damage build that lacks any sort of meaningful condition reoval, making the dagger auto endurance and deathblossom evade wastes of time. Ideally, if I built for all-evade-tank like I have i’d end up with the same low dps, but I’d be a much more effective bunker as long as I timed my evades properly.

Also traps. The 2 charges idea is one I’ve seen before and it’s still a good one, but another good idea is a traps trait that gives the target a debuff which grants the thief bonus damage/condition damage against that target for a few seconds after they trigger it, maybe call it “opportunity damage” This would allow thieves to make effective trap-based ambush or harassment builds by traiting around them, and open a mechanic for future traits (e.g. when you deal opportunity damage you also apply a bleed or something)

At the very least an “opportunity damage” type system would make traps viable options compared to the other utilities even if you don’t trait around them, and unlike vulnerability it could be a highly effective short term debuff because it only buffs the thief’s damage, rather than his whole team.

It it would have to move to Grandmaster if all those effects are added to it. Thieves are not fully reliable on utilities most rely on weapon and traits which would explain the lack of usage in full venoms and full traps but rather a mix that suits you better making the traps that effective might be over thinking. We have to make sure the thief is not too stationary and if he is it has to be worthy.

tbh, at this point i just want anet to nerf thieves how this ppl propose… everyone will quit thief and maybe people will finally shut up… because majority proposed in this thread is absolute garbage as it doesn’t take into consideration how weak thieves are and how they don’t have any invuls, massive heals, blocks etc. and how absurdly stupid broken are other classes atm in pvp/wvw

all the qq and nerfs already made 99% of d/x thieves either reroll or quit, look at pvp….. let’s cry more and kick the dead horse

smartly blinding opponent with dark field leap that will cost me 9 initiative…aye that will work with cleaninsing ire, aoe spam and zerker stance…except not… who are kidding, honestly?

edit: person posted below me definitely never played d/p in competitive pvp… just fyi, many d/p already use steal with BP pre cast to land BP on target + if they decide to stack stealth via BP they drop target either way so that change would actually hardly change anything besides making BP use more clunky in some situations and nerf PP actually (that is already garbage in wvw/pvp)

What if we changed up pistol 5? Maybe make it so that the combo field starts at the target instead of at the player’s feet. I don’t know maybe that could help it be more of a tactical plan rather than an easy means of escape.

This not about thief needs nerf personally I am for improvement especialy in traps and venom no class should be encouraged to certain builds. As I stated before I am not on the broken side.

If BP was converted to dark field the initiative cost would have to be decreased, the damage output increase and possible the same for Shadow Shot. We don’t to make the fight last too long so D/P should find to make up for Backstab lost damage since we don’t want to lose class role and also mentioned before don’t forget the risk reward concept the change for light siphon should lead to more damage and the lost of stealth as well.

I agree thief escape shouldn’t be limited to SB but doesn’t mean all sets have to get that capacity. An idea would be to change Head Shot to a Unload like skill to sync with BP making pistol off-hand a viable choice and reworking the dual wielding skill of all the sets.

Keep in mind those are just suggestions there is no proof that what is posted here can be input in game. If you are displeased with the postings try to improve it this is not a QQ post this is about increasing build diversity in thief sure for some there will always be a meta but that shouldn’t shutdown other builds.

Shinjo.6092:

You are missing invulnerabilities that negates damage to your hp which every class except thieves has access to. Also, thieves are not the only class with evades. Thief evades on weapon sets are also limited by the amount of initiative they have to prevent excess spamming, just like how endurance works for dodge. Lastly, there is an opportunity cost to active defenses. What you lose out by engaging in active defense is opportunity to do something else like interrupting your opponent or healing for example, something that passive defenses hardly ever have to worry about.

Necros don’t have any kind of invulnerabilty, vigor or blocks. Rangers don’t have an invuln either they can just redirect damage to their pet, which is 30% of their damage. Also, your acting like other classes have evades similar to what theives have. That isn’t even remotely true. Thieves have far and away the most evades, and no other class is close. That and stealth, initiative, and stealing and you can understand why their is so much thief hating. The class is designed to be cheap.

As far as the other comments go, I will simply ask this. If thief is so underpowered and has been nerfed so much, why is it still way more viable then other classes in this game? Thieves are viable in pvp, pve, and roaming in wvw. Even in zergs they can pick people off. When I see people complaining like this, I just hope you realize that Mesmers are barely viable in any game mode, Rangers are only viable in pvp with spirits, and necros are only viable in WvW. I can understand a people complaining about nerfs their class has received, but thieves are still very strong overall.

PopeUrban.2578:

Shinjo.6092:

Removing the smoke field in d/p will essentially turn d/p into a weak melee version of p/p. you lose your main source of damage because you can’t stealth for backstabs, and you have no evades on that weapon set. So basically the only thing you can do is gap close and maybe hope that your opponent is stupid enough to stand in black powder while you try to auto attack them to death. Is this what you guys are proposing?

Expecting every thief set to be a full burst DPS set is critically flawed thinking. D/D is that set. D/P is, looking purely at the skills, a harassment and survivability spec built for chasing and finishing targets. It’s got two gap closers, a spammable interrupt, and what should be a powerful defensive field that is in reality a really horrible defensive field.

We’re suggesting making that defensive field in to something worth a kitten so that P/D actually has a unique purpose that doesn’t rely on abuse of unintuitive and broken crap like “look at the floor and hit 5>2 to stealth, then make sure not to use your two gap closers and in stead run to your target to backstab”

The change that I proposed gives D/P the ability to actually effectively fulfill its role as the king of all stompers. in fact, adding more damage to D/P 3 would be a great idea to go along with said change, making it a more effective DPS source to get the target in to the sweet spot for heartseekers.

Does that make more sense?

I never mentioned bursting at all. I only pointed out the fact that your proposed change will reduce the weapon set to auto attack being the only source of outgoing damage. Without stealth or evade, you cannot possible hope to stay in melee range long enough to cause any damage before being dropped yourself.

One also has to look at why anyone would bother choosing dagger main hand over a sword or pistol alternative. With Sword, you will get a stronger aa chain, cleave, a gap closer, and an evade. With pistol, you get an immobilize, a burst skill, and the safety of being able to attack from range. What do you get with dagger if you can’t stealth? 2 gap closers with 0 offensive or defensive capabilities to do anything against your opponent?

I think the community can agree that P/P is a poorly designed weapon set for thieves. If your proposed change reduces D/P to a level that can be outdone by P/P, something is definitely wrong.

zapv.8051:

Shinjo.6092:

You are missing invulnerabilities that negates damage to your hp which every class except thieves has access to. Also, thieves are not the only class with evades. Thief evades on weapon sets are also limited by the amount of initiative they have to prevent excess spamming, just like how endurance works for dodge. Lastly, there is an opportunity cost to active defenses. What you lose out by engaging in active defense is opportunity to do something else like interrupting your opponent or healing for example, something that passive defenses hardly ever have to worry about.

Necros don’t have any kind of invulnerabilty, vigor or blocks. Rangers don’t have an invuln either they can just redirect damage to their pet, which is 30% of their damage. Also, your acting like other classes have evades similar to what theives have. That isn’t even remotely true. Thieves have far and away the most evades, and no other class is close. That and stealth, initiative, and stealing and you can understand why their is so much thief hating. The class is designed to be cheap.

Death Shroud shields your hp from being damaged, and rangers have Signet of Stone combined with Signet of the Beastmaster in addition to “Protect Me”. I never said that other classes have evades similar to what thieves have; only that they exists for other classes as well (although one can probably make a case that the amount of evades Blurred Frenzy and Whirlwind attack provide over time is comparable to some of the evades on thieves’ weapon sets, there’s too many other things to consider to make this comparison legitimate).

As far as the other comments go, I will simply ask this. If thief is so underpowered and has been nerfed so much, why is it still way more viable then other classes in this game? Thieves are viable in pvp, pve, and roaming in wvw. Even in zergs they can pick people off. When I see people complaining like this, I just hope you realize that Mesmers are barely viable in any game mode, Rangers are only viable in pvp with spirits, and necros are only viable in WvW. I can understand a people complaining about nerfs their class has received, but thieves are still very strong overall.

Your comment above is highly subjective; I don’t think thieves are any more viable than a warrior or an engineer in any aspect of the game. PU Mesmers are almost unbeatable in WvW, and regen rangers are fairly strong as well.

Alright this is not about other classes even tough they are not perfect if you have anything to say not related to the topic please create your own topic in the appropriate section. It doesn’t that thief is viable or more viable the fact is that some builds greatly outdo others the goal is to bring the others ones up not the top ones down.

People play what works and it’s narrowed down to a similar build the class diversity is in danger, thieves everywhere start to judge each other based on their choices : don’t go P/D condi it’s cheese mode go D/D it’s for real thieves what if they don’t like it? So far I only recognized 4 sets to be a threat SB,D/P,S/D,P/D and always with full Trickery.

Nobody said thief is underpowered it is lockdown. Even tough Celestial War is so far the best war build based on my opinion I still Soldier Hambow, glass canon GS, rabid , Warhorn/Shouts and other wars builds being competitive. If you believe some classes are greatly weaker than others like necro,ranger or mesmer I believe your build is too simple. Every time I see a necro complain about CC I laughed because you chose a risk that opens up freely your weakness but this is not the thread for that.

Shinjo.6092:

Death Shroud shields your hp from being damaged, and rangers have Signet of Stone combined with Signet of the Beastmaster in addition to “Protect Me”. I never said that other classes have evades similar to what thieves have; only that they exists for other classes as well (although one can probably make a case that the amount of evades Blurred Frenzy and Whirlwind attack provide over time is comparable to some of the evades on thieves’ weapon sets, there’s too many other things to consider to make this comparison legitimate).

Death Shroud is not a viable form of mitigation. If necromancers had the same evades/blocks/invulns of other classes, then yes, I can see the whole “second HP bar” as a valid argument, but as it stands, it is a horrible, badly thought out substitution for an actual defense. Case in point. Guardians have 11k HP as base, yet because of their mechanics and boons, make far, far better bunkers than necromancers ever will be.

Kravick.4906:

Shinjo.6092:

Death Shroud shields your hp from being damaged, and rangers have Signet of Stone combined with Signet of the Beastmaster in addition to “Protect Me”. I never said that other classes have evades similar to what thieves have; only that they exists for other classes as well (although one can probably make a case that the amount of evades Blurred Frenzy and Whirlwind attack provide over time is comparable to some of the evades on thieves’ weapon sets, there’s too many other things to consider to make this comparison legitimate).

Death Shroud is not a viable form of mitigation. If necromancers had the same evades/blocks/invulns of other classes, then yes, I can see the whole “second HP bar” as a valid argument, but as it stands, it is a horrible, badly thought out substitution for an actual defense. Case in point. Guardians have 11k HP as base, yet because of their mechanics and boons, make far, far better bunkers than necromancers ever will be.

umm…

So you’re saying a kitten ton of extra HP and not having it transfer to damaging your health pool the whole time isn’t viable? (WHILE shooting arms at people for 3k a hit.)
You’re basically invulnerable for X seconds…

Sagat.3285:

Alright this is not about other classes even tough they are not perfect if you have anything to say not related to the topic please create your own topic in the appropriate section.

Can I just point out that removing the pulsing blind from BP and/or the Smoke field would completely cripple the majority of Thief PvE utility and survivability as a consequence? A full glass Engineer is already extremely close to our maximum damage output AND can apply far more Vulnerability alongside the limited Stealth they can apply (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bAcpwAdwB24CxK_Ziy8ygISUHCkQepLfRMh2_PtP52o/edit#gid=1883199869) – without these combat utilities we will be completely obsolete. The two are competitive right now because of utility (lots of blinds + more stealth) vs. massive Vulnerability stacking and other versatility eg. Fire fields. That won’t be the case if this change happened.

If this is the way it has to be to balance WvW or PvP, then there HAS to be a split or the damage to the class will be beyond repair in other game modes.

I’d like to not be stuck doing CM and only CM for the rest of my life since that’s the only thing I would be good for competitively, ever.

Auesis.7301:

Can I just point out that removing the pulsing blind from BP and/or the Smoke field would completely cripple the majority of Thief PvE utility and survivability as a consequence? A full glass Engineer is already extremely close to our maximum damage output AND can apply far more Vulnerability alongside the limited Stealth they can apply (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bAcpwAdwB24CxK_Ziy8ygISUHCkQepLfRMh2_PtP52o/edit#gid=1883199869) – without these combat utilities we will be completely obsolete. The two are competitive right now because of utility (lots of blinds + more stealth) vs. massive Vulnerability stacking and other versatility eg. Fire fields. That won’t be the case if this change happened.

If this is the way it has to be to balance WvW or PvP, then there HAS to be a split or the damage to the class will be beyond repair in other game modes.

I’d like to not be stuck doing CM and only CM for the rest of my life since that’s the only thing I would be good for competitively, ever.

Yes I understand the consequences of it in the current conditions the goal is for all the skills on set to be worthy of using not just the stealth attack or dual ones in some situations.A damage buff to BP,Shadow Shot would be recommend but also making Head Shot a dps skill to sync with the dark field hopefully making up for the lost of backstab and stealth. Any buff to HS or dagger AA would be make other builds too strong.

Stealth and smoke combo field would still be here just but not that common it will still be accessible with SB+Smoke Screen,SR and Blinding Powder. It will kind of push the defense system to 3 types stealth,evasion and life siphon making the players more reliant on set skills then traits. Life siphon could be more popular on thief if Devourer and Ice Drake venom were be 30 sec CD or lower than the others ones.

I was under the impression that D/D was the goto Thief DPS set with pistol only viable on trash.

It’s also worth repeating what the above poster mentioned… that not every weapon set need be focused on burst and not every weapon combo need to be equally competetive.

If a trait to increase projectile finisher % were introduced, a dark field would be quite useful and perhaps we’d see more p/p thieves taken seriously.

Simple fact still remains that the Thief is overpowered, but even slight changes to the way things are will have an enormous impact on the class overall. But something needs to be done. Not only for overall balance of the game, but also because these few things (initiative regen and smoke field) are so incredibly over the top that they completely mask the legitimate problems the Thief class has.

Atherakhia.4086:

I was under the impression that D/D was the goto Thief DPS set with pistol only viable on trash.

That’s right – S/P against huge trash groups in high Fractals (the most time-consuming element in that area) is one of our greatest strengths and one of the things that differentiates us from Engineers with maximum glass grenade builds (that can quite easily match S/P and get near D/D’s potential in an AoE setting (around 1k DPS less), partially from the damage itself and partially due to the huge Vulnerability stacking potential). Those blinds are a HUGE portion of our utility that makes us desirable over alternatives, as well as the Smoke field used to blast through long Stealth runs eg. CM. There will be very little merit to bringing a Thief when an Engineer is perfectly capable of bringing Smokes to blast.

People are heavily underestimating how much the loss of that blind is going to hurt PvE Thieves. I don’t think any of the suggestions here have come close to mitigating that loss. I’d be okay with and agree with a lot of these changes eg. Dark fields and so on, but only in a WvW or PvP setting.

Auesis.7301:

Atherakhia.4086:

I was under the impression that D/D was the goto Thief DPS set with pistol only viable on trash.

That’s right – S/P against huge trash groups in high Fractals (the most time-consuming element in that area) is one of our greatest strengths and one of the things that differentiates us from Engineers with maximum glass grenade builds (that can quite easily match S/P and get near D/D’s potential in an AoE setting (around 1k DPS less), partially from the damage itself and partially due to the huge Vulnerability stacking potential). Those blinds are a HUGE portion of our utility that makes us desirable over alternatives, as well as the Smoke field used to blast through long Stealth runs eg. CM. There will be very little merit to bringing a Thief when an Engineer is perfectly capable of bringing Smokes to blast.

People are heavily underestimating how much the loss of that blind is going to hurt PvE Thieves. I don’t think any of the suggestions here have come close to mitigating that loss. I’d be okay with and agree with a lot of these changes eg. Dark fields and so on, but only in a WvW or PvP setting.

Not sure GW2 is the type of game with different settings in the 3 modes but yeah the pve factor was forgotten. We are not proposing changing all blind fields on thief just BP but I can see how S/P will be affected but not to that extent. Usually Smoke Screen and SR provide enough stealth duration.

Sagat.3285:

Auesis.7301:

Atherakhia.4086:

I was under the impression that D/D was the goto Thief DPS set with pistol only viable on trash.

That’s right – S/P against huge trash groups in high Fractals (the most time-consuming element in that area) is one of our greatest strengths and one of the things that differentiates us from Engineers with maximum glass grenade builds (that can quite easily match S/P and get near D/D’s potential in an AoE setting (around 1k DPS less), partially from the damage itself and partially due to the huge Vulnerability stacking potential). Those blinds are a HUGE portion of our utility that makes us desirable over alternatives, as well as the Smoke field used to blast through long Stealth runs eg. CM. There will be very little merit to bringing a Thief when an Engineer is perfectly capable of bringing Smokes to blast.

People are heavily underestimating how much the loss of that blind is going to hurt PvE Thieves. I don’t think any of the suggestions here have come close to mitigating that loss. I’d be okay with and agree with a lot of these changes eg. Dark fields and so on, but only in a WvW or PvP setting.

Not sure GW2 is the type of game with different settings in the 3 modes but yeah the pve factor was forgotten. We are not proposing changing all blind fields on thief just BP but I can see how S/P will be affected but not to that extent. Usually Smoke Screen and SR provide enough stealth duration.

I’m barely talking about the Stealth here. My focus has been the pulsing blind on “just” BP. “Just” is far from the word I would use.

The middle ground for me would be to keep the pulsing blind but change it to a Dark field to prevent Stealth abuse. Taking away the blinds is a GIGANTIC no-no. Only the Finisher should change, otherwise the adverse effects are far too great and will perhaps never be rectified.

EDIT: Also forgot the bullet that uses the Smoke field to blind a distant target. That should be a feature of the Dark skill as well (distant blind).

Lately I’m playing a p/p thief in www with decent success.
I can assure that Black Powder has an heavy impact on the survivability of the build because of the blind, not the stationary blind (mainly used vs melee) but the one from the combo finisher with bp+unload.

With ricochet I can also support the team with a sort of AOE blind.

Changing BP into a dark field, it’ll shift the p/p weapon set more offensive, stripping the only really defense system the p/p set has, blindness.

mammasaura.5907:

Lately I’m playing a p/p thief in www with decent success.
I can assure that Black Powder has an heavy impact on the survivability of the build because of the blind, not the stationary blind (mainly used vs melee) but the one from the combo finisher with bp+unload.

With ricochet I can also support the team with a sort of AOE blind.

Changing BP into a dark field, it’ll shift the p/p weapon set more offensive, stripping the only really defense system the p/p set has, blindness.

I can see your point of view but the fact remains it is still an inferior set which doesn’t a have breath in period that the others sets provide. I never saw any good P/P users but one problem that I keep thinking of is the damage vs sustain. Most just spam unload till foe fall but the initiative cost for the chance of reward is insane on the other hand just doing AA and only using BP+Unload to evade damage would seem good if AA had higher pure damage but causes bleed and zerker wouldn’t make the most if.

The idea is to make Head Shot like Unload to sync with dark field BP just like Dancing Dagger can help you land CnD that would mean Unload would become a new dual skill that could fill in for that lost. I’m not sure of what that skill could be but it should be worthy of the change maybe a knockback or possibly a pistol version of Flanking Strike.

alchemyst.2165:

Kravick.4906:

Shinjo.6092:

Death Shroud shields your hp from being damaged, and rangers have Signet of Stone combined with Signet of the Beastmaster in addition to “Protect Me”. I never said that other classes have evades similar to what thieves have; only that they exists for other classes as well (although one can probably make a case that the amount of evades Blurred Frenzy and Whirlwind attack provide over time is comparable to some of the evades on thieves’ weapon sets, there’s too many other things to consider to make this comparison legitimate).

Death Shroud is not a viable form of mitigation. If necromancers had the same evades/blocks/invulns of other classes, then yes, I can see the whole “second HP bar” as a valid argument, but as it stands, it is a horrible, badly thought out substitution for an actual defense. Case in point. Guardians have 11k HP as base, yet because of their mechanics and boons, make far, far better bunkers than necromancers ever will be.

umm…

So you’re saying a kitten ton of extra HP and not having it transfer to damaging your health pool the whole time isn’t viable? (WHILE shooting arms at people for 3k a hit.)
You’re basically invulnerable for X seconds…

Absolutely. Another example are ranger pets, which range in HP from 20k to 50k. Most of them will get two shot in instances by boss mobs because they cannot dodge, block, or evade. When these pets die, ranger damage drop by a good 30-40% depending on what they’re traited.

GW2 is designed around twitch movement and dodging attacks or activating abilities that block damage out right at key points in time. Necromancers don’t have these abilities. Instead they get two dodges and DS. Can you name one viable bunker build that necromancers have? No, I didn’t think so.

Sagat.3285:

Sagat.3285:

Alright this is not about other classes even tough they are not perfect if you have anything to say not related to the topic please create your own topic in the appropriate section.

Engineer and Ranger will now have one 6 sec revealed skill which could balance the stealth abusing a little. Hoping the upcoming thief changes are good for us.