Guild Wars 2

Honestly, this one is a no-brainer, but since I know people are going to whine if I don’t present some sort of argument:

I have run 2 0 0 6 6 (10 0 0 30 30) Sword/Dagger thief basically since the first week Larcenous Strike was added after Flanking Strike, and continue to run it today (the build I use isn’t much different from Sizer’s variant, but I don’t run PoI). As a result, I feel like I have at least some degree of credibility in saying that the build works fine without Power of Inertia; it’s strong but I wouldn’t call it OP.

However, with PoI, that’s a completely different story.

Honestly, X/X/X/30/30 S/D thieves have so many “natural” evades (evades that burn endurance) through Feline Grace, Vigorous Recovery and Bountiful Theft that the fact that you’re able to get might for 15 seconds at base per dodge is absolutely absurd. When you’re getting stacks of might for nearly half a minute from a single dodge, then that’s stepping way out of bounds. 10 stacks of might computes to more than a 16% damage boost in direct damage alone which lasts a period of almost half a minute and doesn’t require a lot of conditions to fulfill outside of dodging frequently, which you should be doing anyways (and this damage buff is to a build that’s pretty good already). Combined with Fluid Strikes, this is an extremely large buff to your overall damage, especially just for being an adept trait, and as a result this single Adept trait contributes to a very easy-to-play thief play style which is becoming increasingly frequent in today’s meta.

So. Please nerf PoI. Thanks.

You think an average of 3-4 might stacks is op? Have you not seen “insert any other class in the game”. I’m just surprised you aren’t talking about might on signet use trait…

i dun play thief but this is fine, balance and working as intended.

also, might is a boon which can be easily removed.

randomfightfan.4091:

You think an average of 3-4 might stacks is op? Have you not seen “insert any other class in the game”. I’m just surprised you aren’t talking about might on signet use trait…

Lol

If you can only stack 3 or 4 might stacks on average in the period of about 30 seconds when you take into account boon stealing and TotC, you’re just really bad. I can stack more might on my 2 0 0 6 6 without PoI.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

i dun play thief but this is fine, balance and working as intended.

also, might is a boon which can be easily removed.

1. Most other classes in the game don’t have very good boon removal outside of maybe a couple of skills here and there

2. Boon buffering

3. x x x x 6 S/D Thieves are really good at boonstealing

Arganthium.5638:

randomfightfan.4091:

You think an average of 3-4 might stacks is op? Have you not seen “insert any other class in the game”. I’m just surprised you aren’t talking about might on signet use trait…

Lol

If you can only stack 3 or 4 might stacks on average in the period of about 30 seconds when you take into account boon stealing and TotC, you’re just really bad. I can stack more might on my 2 0 0 6 6 without PoI.

You opened about Power of Inertia being OP, so we look at the might granted by Power of Inertia, we’re not interested in other sources. You are adding all sources of might together and then you say look how OP PoI is. That doesn’t make sense.

Max endurance regen is 10% per second, so with Feline Grace 1 dodge per 3,5 second. With 3 Acro the PoI might lasts about 17,3 seconds, and you could keep about 4-5 might stack going on PoI. With 6 Acro your PoI might stack last 20 seconds, 1 stack every 3,5 seconds accumulates into 5-6 stacks of might.

For this you did have to invest heavily into two trait lines to get the Vigor uptime, boon duration and the traits.

PS: You can get more might by swapping weapons with Sigil of Battle then with PoI.

The 2/0/0/6/6 build with strength rune has 2 sources of vigor, feline grace, boon duration and might duration… so basically everything PoI can profit from.

Now imagine somebody playing 2/6/0/6/0 with rune of the pack (just an example). Is PoI really too strong with this setup?

Nerfing a trait because of a very specific build will make the trait absolutely worthless for other builds.

I agree with Arg that POI is extremely strong in the listed setup. You can effortlessly carry 8-10 stacks of might without even having to try, much more if you run Battle and actually try to stack might.

But the use of the term “nerf” is going to turn people off – instead of just saying POI is too good, lets make it kittentier, let’s shift it a bit – instead of 1 stack of might for 15s, POI should probably be 2-3 stacks of might for 3-6 seconds. This allows POI to continue doing what it was intended to do without allowing specific builds to carry 10+ stacks indefinitely and with little effort.

evilapprentice.6379:

I agree with Arg that POI is extremely strong in the listed setup. You can effortlessly carry 8-10 stacks of might without even having to try, much more if you run Battle and actually try to stack might.

But the use of the term “nerf” is going to turn people off – instead of just saying POI is too good, lets make it kittentier, let’s shift it a bit – instead of 1 stack of might for 15s, POI should probably be 2-3 stacks of might for 3-6 seconds. This allows POI to continue doing what it was intended to do without allowing specific builds to carry 10+ stacks indefinitely and with little effort.

Nope no change needed war, ele, engi even guard can quite easily have constant 20+ stacks of might. Thief might stacking abilities are inferior compared to many other classes.

vincecontix.1264:

evilapprentice.6379:

I agree with Arg that POI is extremely strong in the listed setup. You can effortlessly carry 8-10 stacks of might without even having to try, much more if you run Battle and actually try to stack might.

But the use of the term “nerf” is going to turn people off – instead of just saying POI is too good, lets make it kittentier, let’s shift it a bit – instead of 1 stack of might for 15s, POI should probably be 2-3 stacks of might for 3-6 seconds. This allows POI to continue doing what it was intended to do without allowing specific builds to carry 10+ stacks indefinitely and with little effort.

Nope no change needed war, ele, engi even guard can quite easily have constant 20+ stacks of might. Thief might stacking abilities are inferior compared to many other classes.

What do those classes have to invest to get and maintain those stacks? What about the process used to obtain them? Is it as easy as 2 points in a traitline and using a resource that you can’t possibly use improperly (you can’t mess up a dodge – you can dodge at the wrong time or in the wrong direction, but you always perform the dodge itself and get the stack of might). Do any of the standard cookie-cutter builds double their access to the resources used to generate might stacks? Do they have multiple ways to steal might stacks from other players? These are all questions you should be asking yourself when you say “They get it, why don’t we?”

Blanket, blind comparisons with no thought given to them hold little value. Comparing classes can also be tricky, as they’re all designed with different goals in mind. A class might have easy access to boons by design – thieves are already burst damage dealers, they probably weren’t designed with easy access to long duration stacks of might in mind.

Outright nerfing POI just because the way it interacts with 1 specific build would be silly – slightly redesigning it so it’s still useful to all builds without being OP in 1 specific build is the way to go.

what other classes have to invest :

Warrior : 4 point in arm → Forcefull greatsword : grant might on crit and reduce GS cd by 20%. With this you easily stack 12 stack of might while hitting a single target (no Cool down, no drawback. It’s THE must have trait for dungeon war)

Necromancer : 2 point in spite → Reaper’s might : lifeblast grant might for 15 s (due to cast time you will stack maybe 10 stack with this)

Engi, ele and ranger : have good acces to firefield and blast. no investment.
Plus :

Engi : Alchemy 6 point : HGH (I don’t need to explain this, right?)

Ele : firemagic 6 point : pyromancer’s puissance (you easily stack 10 mights)

Ranger : 2 point in beastmastery → companion might allow you to stack 6 might while just swaping pet.

… etc.

And i’m not even listing all the way to gain might.

So I don’t think PoI is overpowered. I think it’s pretty well balanced.

evilapprentice.6379:

vincecontix.1264:

Nope no change needed war, ele, engi even guard can quite easily have constant 20+ stacks of might. Thief might stacking abilities are inferior compared to many other classes.

What do those classes have to invest to get and maintain those stacks?

And what does Thief have to invest to get those OP 8-10 might stacks? 10-12 traitpoints, 3 traits and the most expensive runeset available?

What about the process used to obtain them? Is it as easy as 2 points in a traitline

Except that for 2 points in acrobatics that you do not get 8-10 might stacks, you get 1 16.5 second stack of might every 10 seconds, or about 1.65 stack of might on average. Wow, that sure is incredibly overpowereddoes require getting nerfed.

Blanket, blind comparisons with no thought given to them hold little value.

Calculating the result of 12 trait points, 3 traits and a runeset and then attributing the result to two trait points certain does not hold any value at all.

frans.8092:

Arganthium.5638:

randomfightfan.4091:

You think an average of 3-4 might stacks is op? Have you not seen “insert any other class in the game”. I’m just surprised you aren’t talking about might on signet use trait…

Lol

If you can only stack 3 or 4 might stacks on average in the period of about 30 seconds when you take into account boon stealing and TotC, you’re just really bad. I can stack more might on my 2 0 0 6 6 without PoI.

You opened about Power of Inertia being OP, so we look at the might granted by Power of Inertia, we’re not interested in other sources. You are adding all sources of might together and then you say look how OP PoI is. That doesn’t make sense.

Max endurance regen is 10% per second, so with Feline Grace 1 dodge per 3,5 second. With 3 Acro the PoI might lasts about 17,3 seconds, and you could keep about 4-5 might stack going on PoI. With 6 Acro your PoI might stack last 20 seconds, 1 stack every 3,5 seconds accumulates into 5-6 stacks of might.

For this you did have to invest heavily into two trait lines to get the Vigor uptime, boon duration and the traits.

PS: You can get more might by swapping weapons with Sigil of Battle then with PoI.

I’m sorry, I was taking into account might from all sources because that’s how I interpreted RFF’s post (and maybe I did so incorrectly). That being said, I think that it’s incredibly easy to get 3-4 might stacks from PoI, and probably many more.

The entire second part of your post is almost completely pointless, because as I said in my original post 2 0 0 6 6 is a fairly strong build without PoI. It’s not like you’re just investing all-in just to get some might; vigor/dodging are both extremely powerful defensive tools already, for instance. Plus, you get tons of other great traits along the way, such as Fluid Strikes, Thrill of the Crime, Preparedness, Lead Attacks, and some others depending on how you play- i.e. Pain Response and Sleight of Hand for Sizer, and Assassin’s Reward and Hastened Replenishment for me. I’ve already written about these things in about a thousand other places before to show why the build is pretty strong without PoI. Also, your calculations don’t talk about how, with Runes of Strength, might can last more than 26 seconds.

Whether or not another mechanic is stronger than PoI has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not PoI is overpowered. Even so, you also have to consider the fact that Battle Sigil has a significant drawback (forced weapon swap, another subject that I’ve discussed in relation to the build and, particularly, Jumper’s build, for well over a year on) and I’m not even sure that it would give you more might than PoI anyways, unless you were hardly ever dodging.

Paulo.8459:

The 2/0/0/6/6 build with strength rune has 2 sources of vigor, feline grace, boon duration and might duration… so basically everything PoI can profit from.

Now imagine somebody playing 2/6/0/6/0 with rune of the pack (just an example). Is PoI really too strong with this setup?

Nerfing a trait because of a very specific build will make the trait absolutely worthless for other builds.

Yes. Either way we should be looking at the trait’s most optimal usage. Otherwise, we could argue that Warriors should be allowed to have their 400 HPS HealSig again because for a naked warrior with no toughness or additional vitality Healing Signet is not very powerful.

evilapprentice.6379:

I agree with Arg that POI is extremely strong in the listed setup. You can effortlessly carry 8-10 stacks of might without even having to try, much more if you run Battle and actually try to stack might.

But the use of the term “nerf” is going to turn people off – instead of just saying POI is too good, lets make it kittentier, let’s shift it a bit – instead of 1 stack of might for 15s, POI should probably be 2-3 stacks of might for 3-6 seconds. This allows POI to continue doing what it was intended to do without allowing specific builds to carry 10+ stacks indefinitely and with little effort.

Ugh, I don’t know about 2-3 stacks of might, especially when we take into account burst builds. Still though, reducing the duration significantly is obviously on the right track.

vincecontix.1264:

evilapprentice.6379:

I agree with Arg that POI is extremely strong in the listed setup. You can effortlessly carry 8-10 stacks of might without even having to try, much more if you run Battle and actually try to stack might.

But the use of the term “nerf” is going to turn people off – instead of just saying POI is too good, lets make it kittentier, let’s shift it a bit – instead of 1 stack of might for 15s, POI should probably be 2-3 stacks of might for 3-6 seconds. This allows POI to continue doing what it was intended to do without allowing specific builds to carry 10+ stacks indefinitely and with little effort.

Nope no change needed war, ele, engi even guard can quite easily have constant 20+ stacks of might. Thief might stacking abilities are inferior compared to many other classes.

Lmao. I’ve seen classes like that have lots of might before, but never for that long. Either way, again, that wouldn’t make PoI non-OP necessarily. As I’ve said, 2 0 0 6 6 is already a strong build without PoI, plus it makes the play style extremely easy since dodging buffs damage so much.

Dadnir.5038:

what other classes have to invest :

Warrior : 4 point in arm -> Forcefull greatsword : grant might on crit and reduce GS cd by 20%. With this you easily stack 12 stack of might while hitting a single target (no Cool down, no drawback. It’s THE must have trait for dungeon war)

Necromancer : 2 point in spite -> Reaper’s might : lifeblast grant might for 15 s (due to cast time you will stack maybe 10 stack with this)

Engi, ele and ranger : have good acces to firefield and blast. no investment.
Plus :

Engi : Alchemy 6 point : HGH (I don’t need to explain this, right?)

Ele : firemagic 6 point : pyromancer’s puissance (you easily stack 10 mights)

Ranger : 2 point in beastmastery -> companion might allow you to stack 6 might while just swaping pet.

… etc.

And i’m not even listing all the way to gain might.

So I don’t think PoI is overpowered. I think it’s pretty well balanced.

In general:

1. None of those classes/builds have nearly as much longevity to their might as 2 0 0 6 6 S/D does, excluding HGH, but S/D, unlike HGH, has a massive amount of boonsteal that can be used to counter builds trying to work against S/D’s boons, whereas HGH does not, and so can be countered. Plus, the entire HGH strategy revolves around might stacking, whereas for thief S/D already has an extremely powerful strategy revolving around dodges that becomes significantly more powerful when PoI is put into play.

2. As mentioned at the end of the last part, 2 0 0 6 6 is already powerful and becomes significantly more powerful when PoI comes into play, whereas other builds often require their entire strategy to revolve around that might stacking (i.e. Pyro eles, HGH engis).

Now onto specific builds:

Warrior’s Forceful Greatsword: unless an opponent stands in place and allows you to use 100b, I would be doubtful of this trait ever having any significant strength against other players.

Necro’s Reaper’s Might: I honestly have no respect for power necro builds (sorry to those players that play them), and I think they’re extremely easy to work against for reasons I can explain in another post. Either way, this trait still doesn’t give you lots of and long-lasting might.

Fire field blasting: fire-field blasting doesn’t often give players more than 3 to 6 stacks of might, which is probably less than what PoI thieves get. Plus, this point is kind of irrelevant because frequently thieves are able to blast other people’s fire fields for much more might with CB

HGH- (responded to earlier)

Pyro Eles- this is another build I really don’t respect tbh, partially because for the same reasons that S/D can fight against HGH but also because the build is extremely one-dimensional in just about every way possible

frans.8092:

evilapprentice.6379:

vincecontix.1264:

Nope no change needed war, ele, engi even guard can quite easily have constant 20+ stacks of might. Thief might stacking abilities are inferior compared to many other classes.

What do those classes have to invest to get and maintain those stacks?

And what does Thief have to invest to get those OP 8-10 might stacks? 10-12 traitpoints, 3 traits and the most expensive runeset available?

What about the process used to obtain them? Is it as easy as 2 points in a traitline

Except that for 2 points in acrobatics that you do not get 8-10 might stacks, you get 1 16.5 second stack of might every 10 seconds, or about 1.65 stack of might on average. Wow, that sure is incredibly overpowereddoes require getting nerfed.

Blanket, blind comparisons with no thought given to them hold little value.

Calculating the result of 12 trait points, 3 traits and a runeset and then attributing the result to two trait points certain does not hold any value at all.

As I mentioned earlier, the build is already extremely strong without PoI. Believe it or not, you’re not investing 10-12 trait points just to get some might. That’s pretty linear thinking, and when I did my theory crafting and writing on the build, I basically stated that one-dimensional thinking like that was completely against some of the core elements of the build

We’re talking about Sizer’s build here not just the trait itself, because you always have to consider traits/abilities in the context of other skills/abilities that a class or build has.

(See above comment) Plus 15 seconds base duration for might just for a single Adept trait is ridiculous anyways.

Arganthium.5638:

frans.8092:

evilapprentice.6379:

vincecontix.1264:

Nope no change needed war, ele, engi even guard can quite easily have constant 20+ stacks of might. Thief might stacking abilities are inferior compared to many other classes.

What do those classes have to invest to get and maintain those stacks?

And what does Thief have to invest to get those OP 8-10 might stacks? 10-12 traitpoints, 3 traits and the most expensive runeset available?

What about the process used to obtain them? Is it as easy as 2 points in a traitline

Except that for 2 points in acrobatics that you do not get 8-10 might stacks, you get 1 16.5 second stack of might every 10 seconds, or about 1.65 stack of might on average. Wow, that sure is incredibly overpowereddoes require getting nerfed.

Blanket, blind comparisons with no thought given to them hold little value.

Calculating the result of 12 trait points, 3 traits and a runeset and then attributing the result to two trait points certain does not hold any value at all.

As I mentioned earlier, the build is already extremely strong without PoI. Believe it or not, you’re not investing 10-12 trait points just to get some might. That’s pretty linear thinking, and when I did my theory crafting and writing on the build, I basically stated that one-dimensional thinking like that was completely against some of the core elements of the build

We’re talking about Sizer’s build here not just the trait itself, because you always have to consider traits/abilities in the context of other skills/abilities that a class or build has.

(See above comment) Plus 15 seconds base duration for might just for a single Adept trait is ridiculous anyways.

I think you need to go play war engi or ele and look at there current meta builds first b4 you post things like this.

If you are getting enough endurance to stack that much might just from PoI, I would say that it’s the endurance gain that’s the problem. Feline Grace seems a more likely target here. The cause of all this sustained might gain is the dodging. Nerfing PoI isn’t addressing that cause.

Obtena.7952:

If you are getting enough endurance to stack that much might just from PoI, I would say that it’s the endurance gain that’s the problem. Feline Grace seems a more likely target here. The cause of all this sustained might gain is the dodging. Nerfing PoI isn’t addressing that cause.

The build is at just the right level or maybe very slightly OP in comparison to other professions’ builds without PoI (which I think I’ve addressed before), but with it is clearly overpowered. I mean, just look at the trait itself: 15s might for just a single dodge should intuitively seem ridiculous. That’s a long duration of might for using a very simple mechanic that you should be using anyways, PLUS it’s an Adept trait.

Arganthium.5638:

I’m sorry, I was taking into account might from all sources because that’s how I interpreted RFF’s post (and maybe I did so incorrectly). That being said, I think that it’s incredibly easy to get 3-4 might stacks from PoI, and probably many more.

The entire second part of your post is almost completely pointless, because as I said in my original post 2 0 0 6 6 is a fairly strong build without PoI. It’s not like you’re just investing all-in just to get some might; vigor/dodging ………………….

You did misinterpret what I was saying wrong but that’s alright. It’s hard to determine the meaning behind the words when it’s on the internet.

With this next part of what you’re saying though, you’re basically agreeing that PoI isn’t too strong since it only gives a few might stacks, you’re heavily implying that everything else combined is what’s op. Why not just open your thread with that ideal?

3 spam thieves have always been a problem it seems

Op your still this on this non sense?
1 .Other classes have a way easier time stacking might via fire fights and guess what fire fields can stack might for a whole group. Each finishers give a players a woaping 3 stacks of might for 20 whole secs thats right 20secs no traits required.

2. Sigil of battle doesn’t befit thief as much as a ele, war or engi they are constantly changing weaps as party of there rotation. Where as thief will only swap weapon depending on there situation.

3. Thief does not benefit from might as much as others classes which will generally do lots of condi damage as well as high direct at the same time( Axe/sword/lb say hi).

4. The 2/0/0/6/6 is sub par overall in its might stacking abilities compared to other classes with fire fields. Other prof meta builds can stack 20+ plus stacks 24/7 and said build are by no means glass. This is a group game, so what if thief can stack a little bit of might of himself. Give thiefs the ability to not only self stack might but group stack it then you can talk about poi.

Arganthium.5638:

Paulo.8459:

The 2/0/0/6/6 build with strength rune has 2 sources of vigor, feline grace, boon duration and might duration… so basically everything PoI can profit from.

Now imagine somebody playing 2/6/0/6/0 with rune of the pack (just an example). Is PoI really too strong with this setup?

Nerfing a trait because of a very specific build will make the trait absolutely worthless for other builds.

Yes. Either way we should be looking at the trait’s most optimal usage. Otherwise, we could argue that Warriors should be allowed to have their 400 HPS HealSig again because for a naked warrior with no toughness or additional vitality Healing Signet is not very powerful.

Nice reduction to absurdity. You run a 2/0/0/6/6 build, not a common build by any means, and because you assert that you find PoI over powered it therefore needs a nerf. As other posters have noted many other classes can actually stack more might with less effort.

You also seem to be missing an obvious point. There are three impacts from dodging when traited with PoI: 1) you don’t get hit (yay!), 2) you don’t hit anything (boo!), and 3) you gain a modest amount of might so that when you stop dodging around and finally hit something you make up for some of the dps you lost while dodging around not getting hit and not hitting anything (which is ok, nice even but nothing that special . . . just ok). If anything, most of the other classes might stacking skills/traits deserve a nerf long before PoI.