Guild Wars 2

BrunoBRS.5178:

Mayama.1854:

BrunoBRS.5178:

P/D is extra vulnerable on team fights because it sacrifices mobility/evasion and relies on stealthing often. different tool, same principle: avoid damage altogether.

P/D is near invunerable againt alot of specs in 1v1 it sacrifices mobility/evasion and relies on stealthing often. different tool, same principle: avoid damage altogether.

Just waiting for the, “the game isnt build around 1v1” argument but if you draw that card I dont want to hear condi tank or turret engi complains from thiefs too.

just because you saw the flaw in your own argument and called it out doesn’t mean it isn’t true.

people keep treating duels and 1v1s as the standard of balancing when it’s painfully obvious that the game is not meant for that.

I pointed out the flaw in your argument and now you are going to spam random straw man arguments? You said that thieves always have to kill targets fast or are dead. Your argument made it sound like its always the case. I did nothing else than show you a common thief build that contradicts your absolute statement. You couldnt argue with it so you posted some random words about how P/D condi is weak in teamfights and how it sacrifices typical thief atributes to archive it. Which has nothing to do with my statement that P/D is exactly the opposite of kill fast or be killed. Seriously…

As others have stated a thief without mobility is useless.

Mayama.1854:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Mayama.1854:

BrunoBRS.5178:

P/D is extra vulnerable on team fights because it sacrifices mobility/evasion and relies on stealthing often. different tool, same principle: avoid damage altogether.

P/D is near invunerable againt alot of specs in 1v1 it sacrifices mobility/evasion and relies on stealthing often. different tool, same principle: avoid damage altogether.

Just waiting for the, “the game isnt build around 1v1” argument but if you draw that card I dont want to hear condi tank or turret engi complains from thiefs too.

just because you saw the flaw in your own argument and called it out doesn’t mean it isn’t true.

people keep treating duels and 1v1s as the standard of balancing when it’s painfully obvious that the game is not meant for that.

I pointed out the flaw in your argument and now you are going to spam random straw man arguments? You said that thieves always have to kill targets fast or are dead. Your argument made it sound like its always the case. I did nothing else than show you a common thief build that contradicts your absolute statement. You couldnt argue with it so you posted some random words about how P/D condi is weak in teamfights and how it sacrifices typical thief atributes to archive it. Which has nothing to do with my statement that P/D is exactly the opposite of kill fast or be killed. Seriously…

sigh

here, let me reword that so you can understand:

i’m not talking about 1v1s. there’s a guy in one of the thief threads (this one, maybe?) that runs freaking P/P with healing power because it has high sustain on duels. i don’t care about duels, because this game isn’t balanced for duels, and the supported game modes are not about individuals.

a thief on tPvP or WvW zergs has one role: get kills fast and get out. P/D is really fun, and yes, it can survive slightly better than other thief builds, at the cost of efficacy. on team fights, you’re just pressuring one guy at a time. off point/backcapping, you’re not killing fast enough to decap the point reasonably fast (compared to other specs). on WvW, if you’re gonna be the single target guy, then you better gank some backline squishies, because DoT pressure won’t cut it.

to top it all off, P/D is the one (viable) thief build that can’t stay on the move and stay on the offense at the same time. it has no mobility or gap closers, one easy to dodge CC, and that’s it. hell, you can kite a P/D thief, because if all it can do is land autoattacks on you, then you’re safe. P/D needs to be constantly getting in and out of melee range, despite being a ranged weapon.

now please stop trying to nerf thieves because they’re good on 1v1. OF COURSE they’re good on 1v1, it’s literally all they can do!

BrunoBRS.5178:

now please stop trying to nerf thieves because they’re good on 1v1. OF COURSE they’re good on 1v1, it’s literally all they can do!

Well… level a condi necro, jump into WvW and try to find thieves that actually WANT to fight you 1v1.

Well, there are none – for a reason. Conditon builds are more OP the smaller the amount of participating players is. So in a 1v1, conditions are most effective. Go roaming with power necro. that shows courage, skill and then you may get some more fights because a pwer necro actually has to think what he does.

The problem with condition builds is the damage they can dish out fast while being tanky, the very same problem current warrior power builds have. And regarding conditions thats caused by ignoring armor and only relying on one and a half stat.

TheBandicoot.5294:

The problem with condition builds is the damage they can dish out fast while being tanky, the very same problem current warrior power builds have. And regarding conditions thats caused by ignoring armor only relying on one and a half stat.

Oh believe me you are not dishing out damage fast as condi necro compared to other builds/classes and only thieves and engis cant counter-build condi specs. Eles, guardians and to some extend warriors can build, especially in WvW with the minus condi duration food, so that they are basicaly immune to conditions and still deal tons of damage. With zerker thieves backstabbing for 10k and more on 3k armor condition builds are the best way to counter that.

Build a hp buffer, get minus condi duration food and dont play a engi or thief and you can deal with condi bunker specs. Bevor you say omg its unfair that those two classes cant deal with condi necros keep in mind that a condi necro can basicaly go to the toilet when a diamond skin ele or a condi removal focused guardian jumps on them because a necro cant even escape.

No? Funny because a terrormancer rips me apart in ~10 to 15 seconds if i cannot manage to escape the fear chain, and a fight won´t last longer than a minute because the necro easily outsustains me even when packing all the condi remove i can get ahold of.

But that ain´t the point, either. I won´t say its unfair because a thief lacks condi remove, i´d rather say its unfair because condition builds are stupidly OP, just look at condi P/D or D/D thief.

If you get backstabbed for 10k on 3k armor, the thief doing so has blown all cooldowns and is more or less defenseless. Nothing to do there, a single, swift sneeze will make him cry. But that ain´t the point as well, right…

Currently a thief can be very mobile in combat (S/D), but i´d say its perfectly fine because a thief is not able to stay onpoint. Mr Silentnight Warrior should rather complain about warrior´s mobility because they can be mobile and stay onpoint.

TheBandicoot.5294:

But that ain´t the point, either. I won´t say its unfair because a thief lacks condi remove, i´d rather say its unfair because condition builds are stupidly OP, just look at condi P/D or D/D thief.

If you get backstabbed for 10k on 3k armor, the thief doing so has blown all cooldowns and is more or less defenseless. Nothing to do there, a single, swift sneeze will make him cry. But that ain´t the point as well, right…

I laughed at D/D condi and P/D is very predictable and probably the lowest on your self-made cheese list. Power D/D and D/P thieves can use Valkyrie so please don’t say power thief is glass canon especially since the most effective ones use 6 6 2 0 0, 2 6 6 0 0 or 0 6 6 2 0 0.

Thief only has to be low on toughness with the other sets if you need vitality on power spec get Practiced Tolerance. Considering the numerous"fixes"on thief since the beginning I can’t take this thread seriously at all.

Mayama.1854:

BrunoBRS.5178:

now please stop trying to nerf thieves because they’re good on 1v1. OF COURSE they’re good on 1v1, it’s literally all they can do!

Well… level a condi necro, jump into WvW and try to find thieves that actually WANT to fight you 1v1.

or… don’t? necros have a well estabilished place in the GWEN meta (hint, they’re not the G, the W, or the E). get a power necro and go find a zerg. that’s something thieves can’t do, on a practical level. on the other hand, thieves get to roam, necros don’t. necro has never been a class that gets to pick their fights, they’re the class that once engaged, it can be annoying to disengage, and they’re good on attrition.

seriously, that’s their design philosophy: necro is low mobility and attrition, thief is mobility and powerful single target combat.

BrunoBRS.5178:

Mayama.1854:

BrunoBRS.5178:

thief is the ultimate “all or nothing” profession. either we kill really fast, or we’re dead meat. either we completely null the damage coming to us, or we’re dead.

Looks at P/D condi… laughs

P/D is extra vulnerable on team fights because it sacrifices mobility/evasion and relies on stealthing often. different tool, same principle: avoid damage altogether.

Very far from the truth. I believe of all of the weapon sets available to the thief, P/D is the most mobile. I run it for the sole purpose of its rather astonishing mobility and effectiveness in 1vmany situations due to the sheer effectiveness of CnD’s detarget and the mobility/disengage at a very low cost SS offers.

DeceiverX.8361:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Mayama.1854:

BrunoBRS.5178:

thief is the ultimate “all or nothing” profession. either we kill really fast, or we’re dead meat. either we completely null the damage coming to us, or we’re dead.

Looks at P/D condi… laughs

P/D is extra vulnerable on team fights because it sacrifices mobility/evasion and relies on stealthing often. different tool, same principle: avoid damage altogether.

Very far from the truth. I believe of all of the weapon sets available to the thief, P/D is the most mobile. I run it for the sole purpose of its rather astonishing mobility and effectiveness in 1vmany situations due to the sheer effectiveness of CnD’s detarget and the mobility/disengage at a very low cost SS offers.

Pd is not vulnerable in team fights has higher survivability. Its bad for my team comps coz it doesn’t bring enough dps, almost everything about pd is selfish. What happens in even egagements is pd thief team gets wipe coz pd thiefs isn’t bringing much to the team but pd thief survives.

SS for mobility is so situational and its not good mobility. Esp if your versing people that aren’t brain dead who are constantly kiting you and keep you at range.

vincecontix.1264:

DeceiverX.8361:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Mayama.1854:

BrunoBRS.5178:

thief is the ultimate “all or nothing” profession. either we kill really fast, or we’re dead meat. either we completely null the damage coming to us, or we’re dead.

Looks at P/D condi… laughs

P/D is extra vulnerable on team fights because it sacrifices mobility/evasion and relies on stealthing often. different tool, same principle: avoid damage altogether.

Very far from the truth. I believe of all of the weapon sets available to the thief, P/D is the most mobile. I run it for the sole purpose of its rather astonishing mobility and effectiveness in 1vmany situations due to the sheer effectiveness of CnD’s detarget and the mobility/disengage at a very low cost SS offers.

Pd is not vulnerable in team fights has higher survivability. Its bad for my team comps coz it doesn’t bring enough dps, almost everything about pd is selfish. What happens in even egagements is pd thief team gets wipe coz pd thiefs isn’t bringing much to the team but pd thief survives.

SS for mobility is so situational and its not good mobility. Esp if your versing people that aren’t brain dead who are constantly kiting you and keep you at range.

He is right, theirs a reason why that cheesy spec isnt played in tPvP by good teams. The mobility thing is also true, just try to fight a good ranger or engi that keeps you at 1200 range constantly. P/D just happens to be good against alot of the easy mode specs “cough” warrior “cough” that run around in WvW right now.

P/D is mobile!? Where?!

Mobility is the Thieves niche. Without it there is no purpose to the class. It is also one of the few ones that still runs zerker ammy in PvP.

#NoMoreNerfs

I have mained thief since beta and have played 5000+ games on him in spvp alone.
I am really trying to wrap my head around all the thief complaints.

But I honestly cannot when I get bit by ranger pets for 4k, engie rocket turret for 4k, necro shadow bolt auto-attack thing for 4-5k(and I’m not talking about the team wiping litchform), warrior anything ~10k, mesmer whirlwind phantasm 6k, not to mention a single burn is enough to destroy my wapping 10k hp.
So Ill take more nerfs plz, and since im probably still going to win against the little children even with the nerfs might as well delete the class so everyone is happy.

Ill just go back to my warrior and be completely out of control with more damage and way way way more survivability, but atleast I dont stealth for 3 seconds holy jesus can you imagine…

Back on topic:

What would be the best solution to reward those players who are able to “guess” when ports are being used?

The thief uses initiative and that alow the class to spam the same skill over and over again. It is working as intended but there is not a reward to the player who is able to dodge those ports.

Whitout nerfing the amout of ports and their range what is the best solution to punish people who spam the same skill over and over again?

I know that good thiefs dont spam the same skill over and over again.
My sugestion is to have a window of 6/7 seconds (could be less) where if the thief uses the same skill (this could be used only on ports) the skill consume one more iniciative and so on.

It will rewars the player who is able to avoid the port because the thief will be able to do less ports if the thief spam the skill over and over again.

In reality good thiefs will use other skill to port to the target (weapon swap to weapon with another port or steal or utilities.

So only thiefs spaming the same skill will be punished.

silentnight warrior.2714:

Back on topic:

What would be the best solution to reward those players who are able to “guess” when ports are being used?

The thief uses initiative and that alow the class to spam the same skill over and over again. It is working as intended but there is not a reward to the player who is able to dodge those ports.

Whitout nerfing the amout of ports and their range what is the best solution to punish people who spam the same skill over and over again?

I know that good thiefs dont spam the same skill over and over again.
My sugestion is to have a window of 6/7 seconds (could be less) where if the thief uses the same skill (this could be used only on ports) the skill consume one more iniciative and so on.

It will rewars the player who is able to avoid the port because the thief will be able to do less ports if the thief spam the skill over and over again.

In reality good thiefs will use other skill to port to the target (weapon swap to weapon with another port or steal or utilities.

So only thiefs spaming the same skill will be punished.

if you know good thieves don’t spam the same skill over and over again, then why the hell do you have a problem with the spamming? just kill the baddies. seriously. if spamming is a sign of a bad player, it means they’re playing bad, in which case just win the freaking battle, and if you can’t win against someone you just labeled a bad player then freaking learn to play.

and there is no spammable teleport on thief. the closest is shadow shot, which travels slower than normal pistol shots and can be blocked/evaded, LOS’d, or just plain outrun. the other “spammable” are infiltrator strike, which unless you’re using a trick that will still take about 1/2 second to execute, you can’t spam without being teleported back; and infiltrator arrow, which costs whopping 6 initiative for a 900 range teleport that isn’t instant, deals no damage, and it on the freaking shortbow, which is a purely utility weapon.

my suggestion is stop complaining about an issue that isn’t there, and learn to play if you can’t beat bad players.

i’m seriously starting to get kittened off at this flooding of “proposed, balanced thief nerfs” by people that have no idea how the profession works.

BrunoBRS.5178:

silentnight warrior.2714:

Back on topic:

What would be the best solution to reward those players who are able to “guess” when ports are being used?

The thief uses initiative and that alow the class to spam the same skill over and over again. It is working as intended but there is not a reward to the player who is able to dodge those ports.

Whitout nerfing the amout of ports and their range what is the best solution to punish people who spam the same skill over and over again?

I know that good thiefs dont spam the same skill over and over again.
My sugestion is to have a window of 6/7 seconds (could be less) where if the thief uses the same skill (this could be used only on ports) the skill consume one more iniciative and so on.

It will rewars the player who is able to avoid the port because the thief will be able to do less ports if the thief spam the skill over and over again.

In reality good thiefs will use other skill to port to the target (weapon swap to weapon with another port or steal or utilities.

So only thiefs spaming the same skill will be punished.

if you know good thieves don’t spam the same skill over and over again, then why the hell do you have a problem with the spamming? just kill the baddies. seriously. if spamming is a sign of a bad player, it means they’re playing bad, in which case just win the freaking battle, and if you can’t win against someone you just labeled a bad player then freaking learn to play.

and there is no spammable teleport on thief. the closest is shadow shot, which travels slower than normal pistol shots and can be blocked/evaded, LOS’d, or just plain outrun. the other “spammable” are infiltrator strike, which unless you’re using a trick that will still take about 1/2 second to execute, you can’t spam without being teleported back; and infiltrator arrow, which costs whopping 6 initiative for a 900 range teleport that isn’t instant, deals no damage, and it on the freaking shortbow, which is a purely utility weapon.

my suggestion is stop complaining about an issue that isn’t there, and learn to play if you can’t beat bad players.

i’m seriously starting to get kittened off at this flooding of “proposed, balanced thief nerfs” by people that have no idea how the profession works.

This changes wont nerf afect good players then what is your problem with them?

BrunoBRS.5178:

my suggestion is stop complaining about an issue that isn’t there, and learn to play if you can’t beat bad players.

i’m seriously starting to get kittened off at this flooding of “proposed, balanced thief nerfs” by people that have no idea how the profession works.

The problem is that kittenty players get carried by it, like warrior and guardian, thief is a really easy class which alows you to jump in PvP and do good without much knowledge of the game in general. Try this with the other 5 classes, wont work. So removing all those crutches that make those classes carry bad players is a good thing.

Mayama.1854:

BrunoBRS.5178:

my suggestion is stop complaining about an issue that isn’t there, and learn to play if you can’t beat bad players.

i’m seriously starting to get kittened off at this flooding of “proposed, balanced thief nerfs” by people that have no idea how the profession works.

The problem is that kittenty players get carried by it, like warrior and guardian, thief is a really easy class which alows you to jump in PvP and do good without much knowledge of the game in general. Try this with the other 5 classes, wont work. So removing all those crutches that make those classes carry bad players is a good thing.

please do try what you’re implying.

>>It will rewars the player who is able to avoid the port because the thief will be able to do less ports if the thief spam the skill over and over again.

This argument remains one of the most ill thought out made regarding skill usage.

ALL CLASSES spam. It makes no difference if one presses 1 5 times in 10 seconds or if one presses (1 ,2 , 3 ,4 5,) in 10 seconds. They are just buttons on a keyboard. Just because one different then another does not mean a person is more “skillful” because he presses a different one.

The only difference is the thief can press the same button two or three times in a row. This does not make him a less skilled player. There no reason to restrict the ability to do so as it ALREADY exists in the ini system.

When ANY classes skills come off cool down said class will USE the skill that best suited to their situation at a given time.

The same is true of the thief using INI.

The thief will use the skill best suited at the time as long as he has INI left. A class using cooldowns that just presses any skill off cooldown willy nilly will not do so well. The fact that ONE of those skills on a thief might be used more times in a row with that INI only means that at the current point in time the others are of less effectiveness.

In short “spamming” is done by everyone and is NOT AN ISSUE. If anything it shows the skills not used so much by a thief in battle need uptweaks.

Nerfing the ones that ARE most effective is just a way to make every skill less useful. It dumb and ill thought out.

BrunoBRS.5178:

honest to goodness, roll a thief and try playing it without using the mobility skills.

tell me how long you last.

all you really need is p/p

Stand The Wall.6987:

BrunoBRS.5178:

honest to goodness, roll a thief and try playing it without using the mobility skills.

tell me how long you last.

all you really need is p/p

not sure if you’re trying to prove my point with that or not, given how utterly kitten P/P is.

Stand The Wall.6987:

BrunoBRS.5178:

honest to goodness, roll a thief and try playing it without using the mobility skills.

tell me how long you last.

all you really need is p/p

Omg P/P haha, you can walk right up to almost any P/P thief and punch his face in. Do you see any P/P thief in PvP or WvW?

ma loot bags, they’re running away!

P/P healing power blinding bunker is real (although not so much after the patch).

Nobody expects it and nobody can beat it until they bring friends.

DeceiverX.8361:

P/P healing power blinding bunker is real (although not so much after the patch).

Nobody expects it and nobody can beat it until they bring friends.

bring a ranged damage class and it’s dead. hell, hambow can probably use the fire field to get rid of the blind faster than your puny unloads through black powder can apply it, while dealing damage and CC at the same time from melee range. heck, most people can melee from just outside the smoke field and still hit you.

DeceiverX.8361:

P/P healing power blinding bunker is real (although not so much after the patch).

Nobody expects it and nobody can beat it until they bring friends.

My engi saids otherwise.

OP: So thieves are supposed to be mobile in order to have a chance at staying alive and they’re balanced in that regard? Yet, the only thing they’re missing is enemies being rewarded by dodging those mobile attacks through nerfing the thief’s mobility? Say that out loud to yourself with a straight face plz.

Not taking damage IS the reward for dodging attacks. Let’s just carry that over to the other professions mobility while we’re at it. If a thief dodges Bull’s Charge then the Warrior is stunned and immobilized for 5 seconds. If a thief dodges Swoop then the Ranger’s pet automatically dies. If a thief dodges RTL then the Ele is locked out of Air for 20 seconds. Etc,etc,etc. Do you see how ridiculous this sounds?

Tman.6349:

OP: So thieves are supposed to be mobile in order to have a chance at staying alive and they’re balanced in that regard? Yet, the only thing they’re missing is enemies being rewarded by dodging those mobile attacks through nerfing the thief’s mobility? Say that out loud to yourself with a straight face plz.

Not taking damage IS the reward for dodging attacks. Let’s just carry that over to the other professions mobility while we’re at it. If a thief dodges Bull’s Charge then the Warrior is stunned and immobilized for 5 seconds. If a thief dodges Swoop then the Ranger’s pet automatically dies. If a thief dodges RTL then the Ele is locked out of Air for 20 seconds. Etc,etc,etc. Do you see how ridiculous this sounds?

Your sugestions sound like that.

Yes thiefs should be mobile and my proposal wont nerf thiefs mobility, only the spam on some skills. Using other movement skills like other professions do its hard i know.

If a warrior uses Bull’s Charge and a thief or any other profession avoid the skill, you avoided damage AND you know that he wont be using the same skill again.

You talked about warriors and a good example would be with the burst skills warrior have now (this will change after balance patch). Even with the internal cd of the burst skill, not losing adrenaline when missing a target allowed warriors to switch and use another burst skill right away.
The amount of people QQ about this was huge because warriors were not punished by missing or the other player was rewarded for is good play.

Thief takes this “try again please” and the no reward to the other player to another level.

Yes sure, because if you avoided one IS, FS, LS, SS or whatever the thief gets back the initiative spent in the process, right. Gosh, how can people be so blind? A thief fuels his attacks with initiative which is a global unified countdown system across ALL weapon sets!! if he spends initiative on one skill, he literally makes all skills go on a cooldown. And if you manage to avoid a skill which costs iniative, you successfully made the thief spend initative for nothing.

TheBandicoot.5294:

Yes sure, because if you avoided one IS, FS, LS, SS or whatever the thief gets back the initiative spent in the process, right. Gosh, how can people be so blind? A thief fuels his attacks with initiative which is a global unified countdown system across ALL weapon sets!! if he spends initiative on one skill, he literally makes all skills go on a cooldown. And if you manage to avoid a skill which costs iniative, you successfully made the thief spend initative for nothing.

Yeah he missed that exact same point from about 4-5 of mine, yours, and others’ posts didn’t he? I just added some hyperbole to drive it home but….

TheBandicoot.5294:

Yes sure, because if you avoided one IS, FS, LS, SS or whatever the thief gets back the initiative spent in the process, right. Gosh, how can people be so blind? A thief fuels his attacks with initiative which is a global unified countdown system across ALL weapon sets!! if he spends initiative on one skill, he literally makes all skills go on a cooldown. And if you manage to avoid a skill which costs iniative, you successfully made the thief spend initative for nothing.

And then he uses the same skill right again. Iniciative gain is too high and the penality for missing is to low.

TheBandicoot.5294:

Yes sure, because if you avoided one IS, FS, LS, SS or whatever the thief gets back the initiative spent in the process, right. Gosh, how can people be so blind? A thief fuels his attacks with initiative which is a global unified countdown system across ALL weapon sets!! if he spends initiative on one skill, he literally makes all skills go on a cooldown. And if you manage to avoid a skill which costs iniative, you successfully made the thief spend initative for nothing.

Yeah sure I get it: thieves have a global initiative pool that can allow them to chain/spam a few skills. Other professions have cool downs on their skiils (how about those 20 skills ele has eh?) What you don’t seem to grasp about that global initiative pool is when a thief wastes initiative, guess what happens when they swap to their secondary set of skills? I’m sure you’re not catching on yet so I’ll spell it out: they swap weapons and then they STILL CAN’T USE ANY SKILLS!! Ya dig?

Tman.6349:

TheBandicoot.5294:

Yes sure, because if you avoided one IS, FS, LS, SS or whatever the thief gets back the initiative spent in the process, right. Gosh, how can people be so blind? A thief fuels his attacks with initiative which is a global unified countdown system across ALL weapon sets!! if he spends initiative on one skill, he literally makes all skills go on a cooldown. And if you manage to avoid a skill which costs iniative, you successfully made the thief spend initative for nothing.

Yeah sure I get it: thieves have a global initiative pool that can allow them to chain/spam a few skills. Other professions have cool downs on their skiils (how about those 20 skills ele has eh?) What you don’t seem to grasp about that global initiative pool is when a thief wastes initiative, guess what happens when they swap to their secondary set of skills? I’m sure you’re not catching on yet so I’ll spell it out: they swap weapons and then they STILL CAN’T USE ANY SKILLS!! Ya dig?

And with those changes, thief will remain with ini when switching weapons, only who spam without control wont have any.

silentnight warrior.2714:

Tman.6349:

TheBandicoot.5294:

Yes sure, because if you avoided one IS, FS, LS, SS or whatever the thief gets back the initiative spent in the process, right. Gosh, how can people be so blind? A thief fuels his attacks with initiative which is a global unified countdown system across ALL weapon sets!! if he spends initiative on one skill, he literally makes all skills go on a cooldown. And if you manage to avoid a skill which costs iniative, you successfully made the thief spend initative for nothing.

Yeah sure I get it: thieves have a global initiative pool that can allow them to chain/spam a few skills. Other professions have cool downs on their skiils (how about those 20 skills ele has eh?) What you don’t seem to grasp about that global initiative pool is when a thief wastes initiative, guess what happens when they swap to their secondary set of skills? I’m sure you’re not catching on yet so I’ll spell it out: they swap weapons and then they STILL CAN’T USE ANY SKILLS!! Ya dig?

And with those changes, thief will remain with ini when switching weapons, only who spam without control wont have any.

My original anologies had nothing to do with cooldowns or that those prfessions that miss those skills still have those skills put on cooldown. What I was referring to was the fact that you want to nerf thiefs mobility (one of their primary fuctions for survivability) by giving them a penalty to those skills getting evaded and incurring an initiative penalty. That same inititive pool is what fuels their offense. If one of the professions in my above examples have their mobile attack/engage dodged or blocked, they are still capable of continuing to dish out damage afterward. Your asking for not only the initiative penalty of missing the attack in the first place but then doubling down on that missed/evaded attack thus severely crippling their output afterward. My examples were to show how fallacious this idea is when applied to the damage output in the exact same scenario with other professions.

Claiming that a random tele (read: instant) evade is somehow a sign of excellent play or show of a terrible thief is just as silly. Get over the thief hate. Your entire premise is completely flawed.

silentnight warrior.2714:

TheBandicoot.5294:

Yes sure, because if you avoided one IS, FS, LS, SS or whatever the thief gets back the initiative spent in the process, right. Gosh, how can people be so blind? A thief fuels his attacks with initiative which is a global unified countdown system across ALL weapon sets!! if he spends initiative on one skill, he literally makes all skills go on a cooldown. And if you manage to avoid a skill which costs iniative, you successfully made the thief spend initative for nothing.

And then he uses the same skill right again. Iniciative gain is too high and the penality for missing is to low.

The penalty for missing is is that he loses initiative (his primary resource) and you take no damage. That is the fundemental idea of what dodging is. Read my above post about adding extra penalties to evaded attacks and maybe it will sink in after a couple read throughs. As far as being able to use a skill again, ask some Mesmers how well Powerblock works vs. every other profession besides thief.

it seems I over simplified this so I will change it to get peoples brain stuck off dagger spam…

sick of thieves trying to justify the ini system by saying other classes can cast more skills per minute then they can. it means nothing

I can press 6 and hit you with a hard hitting skill
you can press 6 and hit me with a hard hitting skill
I cant press 6 but I can cast this weak aoe field
you can press 6 and hit me with a hard hitting skill
I still cant press 6 but I can cast this slow moving projectile blind
you can press 6 and hit me with a hard hitting skill
I can swap weapons and press 6 and hit you with a hard hitting skill
you can press 6 and hit me with a hard hitting skill
I cant press 6 but I can cast a boon rip that does low damage
you can press 6 and hit me with a hard hitting skill

you get the picture? now take cast times into account and it gets even worse.

more likely scenario..

thief f1
necro feared/dazed..
thief 1111111111
necro stunbreak/deathshroud
thief black powder…
necro dodge backwards is now blind..
thief still 1111 but ready to dodge
necro tries to clear the blind..
thief dodges thanks to cast time then back to 1111
necro clears the blind
thief black powder….
necro low health tries to be defensive and cast wells.. eventually
thief after some 222ing has baited out the defences run away in stealth getting all the heals and what not they need probably cast shadow refuge behind a rock so you cant see it
necro.. cant really do much at this point… cast a mark and hope it hits? sit in a mark and hope the thief doesn’t dodge into it negating it?
thief.. a little bit of time later with a rather full ini bar f1 1111 22222 winsors
necro.. wells on cd deathshroud low/empty stun break still on cd health low cant use weapon skills that are off cd due to no stunbreak weapon swap is probably still on cd at this point if they changed

keep in mind the dagger is an example … and it is still over simplified but I see it time and time again watching fights not being in it a thief bursts gets attacked baits out defences runs away gains ini faster then opponents cooldowns and repeats till they cant defend themselves and are dead its just horrible to play against and if you are caught off guard or have a defence off cooldown or are not full health its just an easy win for them

unlucky.9285:

sick of thieves trying to justify the ini system by saying other classes can cast more skills per minute then they can. it means nothing

I can press 2 and hit you with a hard hitting skill
you can press 2 and hit me with a hard hitting skill
I cant press 2 but I can cast this weak aoe field
you can press 2 and hit me with a hard hitting skill
I still cant press 2 but I can cast this slow moving projectile blind
you can press 2 and hit me with a hard hitting skill
I can swap weapons and press 2 and hit you with a hard hitting skill
you can press 2 and hit me with a hard hitting skill
I cant press 2 but I can cast a boon rip that does low damage
you can press 2 and hit me with a hard hitting skill

you get the picture? now take cast times into account and it gets even worse.

So you figure your weapon of choice is just buttons that don’t need to be pressed in any order? Man that hambow mentality is spreading, what’s even more pathetic is people still dying to heartseeker spam XD

I have the perfect solution and it came from the critically acclaimed genius Hitman, chill will now lower the movement speed by 100% for thieves and thieves only. Everyone else just suffers the cooldown and mobility reduction. Next we plan to make any form of shadow step port you directly to jail.

unlucky.9285:

sick of thieves trying to justify the ini system by saying other classes can cast more skills per minute then they can. it means nothing

I can press 2 and hit you with a hard hitting skill
you can press 2 and hit me with a hard hitting skill
I cant press 2 but I can cast this weak aoe field
you can press 2 and hit me with a hard hitting skill
I still cant press 2 but I can cast this slow moving projectile blind
you can press 2 and hit me with a hard hitting skill
I can swap weapons and press 2 and hit you with a hard hitting skill
you can press 2 and hit me with a hard hitting skill
I cant press 2 but I can cast a boon rip that does low damage
you can press 2 and hit me with a hard hitting skill

you get the picture? now take cast times into account and it gets even worse.

The arguments in this thread are truly golden. This guy has less than 10 hours on thief and less than 100 hours in the game total. No doubt about it

wow I said 2 so you instantly go to dagger spam lol…. don’t forget to take the speed ini regenerates. you get a full burst in 15 seconds (traited increased initiative) that’s shorter them most defence skills of other classes

My opinion is just that combat mobility should be bound with cooldowns.

You want to gapclose? Sure thing, burn this cd, use that. If you fail, get countered or outplayed, sit there and eat punishment. Better luck next time.

Same thing for kiting.

Rym.1469:

My opinion is just that combat mobility should be bound with cooldowns.

You want to gapclose? Sure thing, burn this cd, use that. If you fail, get countered or outplayed, sit there and eat punishment. Better luck next time.

Same thing for kiting.

Agree. Right now thief can avoid this completely.

Another thing people permanently forget about is that skills, both weapon- and utility-wise are balanced around initiative. The only thing initiative does is giving the thief as only class a greater choice about what to use when. Thats what all classes do, but a thief can decide the “how often” as long as he has the initiative for it.

Do i really need to repost the brilliant breakdown Platanos posted? Well, there you go: —→ https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Thief-combat-mobility-is-too-much/4291709 <-—

That said it all. A thief spamming 2 on S/D isnt doing damage. A thief spamming 3 on S/D does damage, but has clear vulnerability windows instead and is foreseeable. A thief spamming 4 on any weapon set has yet to kill anyone, and 5 spam didnt kill anyone as well. Spamming 2 on D/x only really hurts when target below 25% health. And 3 on D/p is too expensive to spam, while 3 on D/D is easily avoided by stepping 50 units aside.

You guys clearly need to learn what it means to play thief properly without relying on spamming skills or cheesy builds. Take combat mobility from thief, then what is left? This profession and several weapon sets have been geting nerf after nerf after nerf now, and yet it still is not enough?

“You guys clearly need to learn what it means to play thief properly without relying on spamming skills or cheesy builds”

This is what i want.

Even sizer agrees that steal should be melee only forcing thieves to burn their other gap closing spells just to use it.

silentnight warrior.2714:

TheBandicoot.5294:

Yes sure, because if you avoided one IS, FS, LS, SS or whatever the thief gets back the initiative spent in the process, right. Gosh, how can people be so blind? A thief fuels his attacks with initiative which is a global unified countdown system across ALL weapon sets!! if he spends initiative on one skill, he literally makes all skills go on a cooldown. And if you manage to avoid a skill which costs iniative, you successfully made the thief spend initative for nothing.

And then he uses the same skill right again. Iniciative gain is too high and the penality for missing is to low.

i should link you to this thread on the thief forums where a new thief player tried your mentality, and found out that he’d run out of initiative and die before anything meaningful was achieved.

i swear people don’t realize that keeping the initiative pool high enough to have options is not an easy thing.

silentnight warrior.2714:

“You guys clearly need to learn what it means to play thief properly without relying on spamming skills or cheesy builds”

This is what i want.

You are clearly inexperienced. No thief spams one skill to kill the opponent. PERIOD
If you die to a thief spamming one skill you know where you are on the skill level totem pole right? The bottom

You guys realize this thread will literally go nowhere right!?

None of you are presenting any thoughtful arguments. They are not going to nerf the profession because you are bad at PvP. If you want to make meaningful changes to the class/game then actually give something back to the profession

6 second cool down or increasing initiative on skills used consecutively is moronic – even if something like that were implemented what will you gjve back? Flat nerfs with no compensation are not happening. L-2-P

Your ‘you press 2..blah blah’ only applies to bad thieves. And what are these #2 skills that are causing you so many problems? Is it that ‘HUGE’ damage #2 on pistol? Is it that #2 on short bow that is only useful in melee range that turns nearly useless by walking a few steps away? Is it that #2 on sword that is only a teleport? Oh…I bet its that HS spam that sillies do right? Noob thief spams 2,2,2,2,2,2….then warrior presses that sweet number 6 and all of a sudden noob thief just fully healed him and is out of initiative?

So now the new anti-thief troll meta is “Get rid of thief mobility! It’s too OP!”

“Wait! I thought it was their stealth that is too OP!?!”

“Oh yeah! It still is. Just get rid of them both so thief will be more balanced mmkay…”

“But what about Engis and their 14 knockbacks? What about warriors building for for 8 different immunities/invulnerables? What about permachill necros? What about chain cc rangers?”

“Hey I’m only talking about thieves OK! What does hard counters have to do with anything!?!”

unlucky.9285:

sick of thieves trying to justify the ini system by saying other classes can cast more skills per minute then they can. it means nothing

I can press 2 and hit you with a hard hitting skill
you can press 2 and hit me with a hard hitting skill
I cant press 2 but I can cast this weak aoe field
you can press 2 and hit me with a hard hitting skill
I still cant press 2 but I can cast this slow moving projectile blind
you can press 2 and hit me with a hard hitting skill
I can swap weapons and press 2 and hit you with a hard hitting skill
you can press 2 and hit me with a hard hitting skill
I cant press 2 but I can cast a boon rip that does low damage
you can press 2 and hit me with a hard hitting skill

you get the picture? now take cast times into account and it gets even worse.

I think I’ll expand on this one, but since I play more than just thief, I’ll refer to my additional classes by what they are to avoid confusion.

My thief can press 2 and hit with a 1.0 multiplier (against A, B, &C) skill (since we’re just starting the fight)

My staff ele (A) build can cast lava font (3.2/4 hits multiplier)
My D/F ele (B) build can cast lightning aura (intant cast) and land lightning touch on the stunned thief
My Axe/Sh © warrior can Cyclone Axe (0.7 + vuln)

My thief (against A) presses 2 while getting hit by lava font and misses due to burning retreat
My thief (against B) is stunned
My thief (against C) presses 2 again for a pitiful amount of damage

My ele (A) attunes to earth and casts unsteady ground between himself and the thief
My ele (B) autoattacks with lightning whip and rolls backward
My warrior autoattacks

My Thief (against A) presses 2 and runs into the wall to be knocked down
My Thief (against B) stunbreaks
My Thief (against C) presses 2 again to deal less dps than the warrior auto chain

My ele (A) casts shockwave
My ele (B) casts gale
My warrior continues to autoattack

My thief (against A) is immobilized but presses 2 because we’re talking about the usefulness of repeating the same skill
My thief (against B) is knocked down
My thief (against C) presses 2 while losing the DPS race

My ele (A) casts eruption on top himself
My ele (B) attunes to fire and uses burning speed on the thief
My warrior finishes his auto chain which totals out at a 5.0 multiplier (1.5 on the last hit).

My thief (against A) decides that pressing 2 is getting him nowhere and steals to my ele, but is knocked down again upon crossing unsteady ground
My thief (against B) breaks stun again (shadow return)
My thief (against C) presses 2 again, my warrior is at about 2/3 health

My ele (A) attunes to water and puts an Ice spike over both of their heads
My ele (b) begins drakes breath
My warrior Shield bashes

My thief (against A) presses 2
My thief (against B) finally gets to press 2 again
My thief (against C) is stunned

My ele (A) casts geyser on top of eruption
My ele (B) finishes casting Drakes breath (thief will be downed from burning at this point if no condi clears)
My warrior eviscerates, rolls a 20, and the thief is down

My thief (against A) presses 2
My thief (against B) presses 2
My thief (against C) sulks in his downstate

My ele (A) casts Frozen ground while the thief eats the eruption and ice spike and the ele begins to heal to full from the geyser + blast finisher
My ele (B) casts flamewall on himself/thief, casts fireshield (instant cast), attunes to earth gaining protection and casts magnetic wave (instant cast) gaining might from his firefield and crippling the thief
My warrior © autoattacks the downed thief

My thief presses 2 expending the last of his initiative
My thief presses 2 missing the ele who dodge rolls along flamewall gaing more might from the earth evasive arcana
My thief presses alt F4

My ele (A) attunes to air and places a static field over my thief
My ele (B) attunes to water, and hits frozen burst putting him at (conservatively) 12 stacks of might (from the blast finishers and sigil of battle swaps) and chilling the thief
My warrior shrugs and runs to meet up with his comrades

My thief (against A) realizes he can’t down the ele by pressing 2 and runs away with shadowstep
My thief (against B) begins to run away at -66% speed having already used Shadowstep and shadow return

My ele (A) swaps back to fire and continues to nuke the point/wall with meteor shower
My ele (B) switches to air and begins autoattacking till the thief succumbs to direct and burning damage
My warrior begins telling his friends over TS about the 222 spamming thief who just attacked him

You need to get more creative with these scenarios

thief mobility is not the problem. thieves are squishy, the mobility is basically a class survival mechanic. their unlimited in-combat restealthing could use a change, but thats a GW2 design flaw and any limits on incombat stealth should come with a base survivability increase for thieves (eg more HP).

warrior mobility is a huge problem and deserves a few threads of its own. dogged march, holebrek runes and lemongrass is basically unkiteable and is arguably the most common wvw setup. add that in with all the gap closers available as both weapon and utility skills.

why is the class that has the most health, the most armor, the easiest access to huge sustain, and has the most (or nearly the most) damage simply because unlike everyone else, they can afford to gear for it…. why is that class also the class that is the most impervious to being kited? if any class should have poor mobility, should it not be the illiterate overweight lumbering lards with their giant plate mail and hammers?

there is literally no sacrifice in playing a warrior. big damage, big survivability, big sustain, big mobility, stability, CC, they even gave you very reliable condition removal. the only advantage other players have against warriors is the breathtaking amount of autism exhibited by so many players of the warrior profession.