Guild Wars 2

First off I play both so I’m not really biased towards either thief or warrior, but since those are the only 2 I play I’ll compare these 2 only. But I feel like with the changes to adren, then thief needs to be revealed if their attack from stealth gets blocked also it’s pretty much the evuivelant IMO.

I’m sure this has been brought up before somewhere but I’m on my phone at work and it’s hard enough to read through the forums, just wanted to see everyone’s opinion on this and feel free to bring up other stuff from other professions

The reason you can’t do this is that blind, aegis, and 1 time block skills would completely prevent thief from being able to deal damage while in stealth. Thus means when a thief stealths all it can do is run away or eat damage.

Thief is far less forgiving even with such rules like not revealing when they haven’t dealt direct damage. Thief cannot make nearly as many mistakes as warrior, warrior’s need to not sulk in this “nerf” when all they had to do is just execute an F1 and win.

Stealth has a 9 second cool down for d/p. 1 initiative per second.

That counterplay you mention means the theif is revealed for 4 seconds without having dealt damage and is in a bad position.

Basically you’re saying make stealth unviable with blinds, blocks, evades, invulnerabilities, being so prevalent.

What you claim to be counterplay is hard countering to the extreme. Everything would hard counter non-s/d thieves.

Thieves shouldn’t get revealed on blind/block/aegis etc. It wouldn’t be proper counterplay to spam these blinds/blocks/aegis/evades and get a thief revealed. If so, you could probably reveal a thief literally every time he stealthed. Thief is already seriously unforgiving, even with our ports, evades, blinds, and stealths.

Miss a CnD? You’re susceptible to huge burst and left like a sitting duck.
Mistime a dodge? You’re screwed.
Miss mug at low hp? You’re dead.
Run out of initiative? Again, you’re a sitting duck.

I could go on. My point is, thief doesn’t need to be even MORE unforgiving. If this change happened thief would be unplayable.

Thief should get revealed after failing a stealth attack, you kitten up?.. you should be punished for it. Right now everyone and their mother runs p/d condi thief in wvw because its so forgiving, you can keep failing stealth attacks, you can also get out of any situation. This isn’t even a warrior vs thief debate as both classes are highly forgiving, it isn’t one or the other.

Lifestealer.4910:

Thief should get revealed after failing a stealth attack, you kitten up?.. you should be punished for it. Right now everyone and their mother runs p/d condi thief in wvw because its so forgiving, you can keep failing stealth attacks, you can also get out of any situation. This isn’t even a warrior vs thief debate as both classes are highly forgiving, it isn’t one or the other.

So the idea is to punish the other builds because the ranged easy-to-land one is too forgiving. So wouldn’t more people move to P/D since it would be much more likely to hit, doesn’t require positional setup, and allows you to build tankier for more survival out of stealth since you’ll be revealed much more often?

While we’re on nerfing/buffing abilities based on other classes with no respect to surrounding mechanics or abilities, let’s boost the damage of backstab since it only has a 2.4 multiplier as opposed to a 3.0 multiplier. Also giving it a 300 range leap seems fair. While we’re at it, lets boost dagger autoattack #3 to the necromancer dagger AA #3 (1.2 vs. thief’s paltry .85).

You know what, let’s lock out all but one class just so everyone is working on the same platform.

And then lock out all traits, because if there were different traits, there would still be imbalance looking at the traits in a vacuum.

And weapons.

and armor

(don’t forget runes too)

Ahhh… sweet, sweet uniformity.

Maugetarr.6823:

Lifestealer.4910:

Thief should get revealed after failing a stealth attack, you kitten up?.. you should be punished for it. Right now everyone and their mother runs p/d condi thief in wvw because its so forgiving, you can keep failing stealth attacks, you can also get out of any situation. This isn’t even a warrior vs thief debate as both classes are highly forgiving, it isn’t one or the other.

So the idea is to punish the other builds because the ranged easy-to-land one is too forgiving. So wouldn’t more people move to P/D since it would be much more likely to hit, doesn’t require positional setup, and allows you to build tankier for more survival out of stealth since you’ll be revealed much more often?

While we’re on nerfing/buffing abilities based on other classes with no respect to surrounding mechanics or abilities, let’s boost the damage of backstab since it only has a 2.4 multiplier as opposed to a 3.0 multiplier. Also giving it a 300 range leap seems fair. While we’re at it, lets boost dagger autoattack #3 to the necromancer dagger AA #3 (1.2 vs. thief’s paltry .85).

You know what, let’s lock out all but one class just so everyone is working on the same platform.

And then lock out all traits, because if there were different traits, there would still be imbalance looking at the traits in a vacuum.

And weapons.

and armor

(don’t forget runes too)

Ahhh… sweet, sweet uniformity.

warrior fisticuffs lol.

Apples and oranges. Silly warrior.

alchemyst.2165:

Thieves shouldn’t get revealed on blind/block/aegis etc. It wouldn’t be proper counterplay to spam these blinds/blocks/aegis/evades and get a thief revealed. If so, you could probably reveal a thief literally every time he stealthed. Thief is already seriously unforgiving, even with our ports, evades, blinds, and stealths.

Miss a CnD? You’re susceptible to huge burst and left like a sitting duck.
Mistime a dodge? You’re screwed.
Miss mug at low hp? You’re dead.
Run out of initiative? Again, you’re a sitting duck.

I could go on. My point is, thief doesn’t need to be even MORE unforgiving. If this change happened thief would be unplayable.

Not really unplayable, thieves would just go to the P/D setup since Sneak Attack is 6 shots, it won’t matter if the first gets blocked/dodged/misses because the rest will hit.

Zefrost.3425:

Stealth needs to be changed to work exactly like the adrenaline change. It’s called balance, guys. Stealth is WAY more forgiving than adrenaline.

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- Guardian activated aegis when you stealthed? Good, he counterplayed you. I’m sure you’ll just stealth again in 4 seconds again anyway while his aegis is on a 90s cooldown.

- Necromancer used well of darkness and you missed? He counterplayed you with a 50s cooldown. Your stealth is on a 4s cooldown.

- Thief spamming evades while you’re stealthed? Nice, you’re both overpowered.

- Warrior used his shield block while you stealthed? Cool, he’s actually playing the game. His block is now on a 25s cooldown while you can stealth again in 4s.

- Meditation guardian using multiple sources of block, blind and evades while you’re stealthed? He’s using cooldowns to randomly try to mitigate your overpowered skills with no telegraphs because you’re INVISIBLE.

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If warriors could use burst skills while in invisible every 4 seconds and spam EVISCERATE EVISCERATE EVISCERATE EVISCERATE until it hits as well, the game would definitely reach esports status.

QFTT

Do you want more s/d teefs?

Because that’s how you get more s/d teefs.

The way you’re suggesting it is backstab should be renamed Assassinate, so it even instantly kills a thief or instantly kills, without downstate opponent. Should have blocked it bro.

Zefrost.3425:

Stealth needs to be changed to work exactly like the adrenaline change. It’s called balance, guys. Stealth is WAY more forgiving than adrenaline.

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- Guardian activated aegis when you stealthed? Good, he counterplayed you. I’m sure you’ll just stealth again in 4 seconds again anyway while his aegis is on a 90s cooldown.

- Necromancer used well of darkness and you missed? He counterplayed you with a 50s cooldown. Your stealth is on a 4s cooldown.

- Thief spamming evades while you’re stealthed? Nice, you’re both overpowered.

- Warrior used his shield block while you stealthed? Cool, he’s actually playing the game. His block is now on a 25s cooldown while you can stealth again in 4s.

- Meditation guardian using multiple sources of block, blind and evades while you’re stealthed? He’s using cooldowns to randomly try to mitigate your overpowered skills with no telegraphs because you’re INVISIBLE.

---

If warriors could use burst skills while in invisible every 4 seconds and spam EVISCERATE EVISCERATE EVISCERATE EVISCERATE until it hits as well, the game would definitely reach esports status.

Exactly this.

Zefrost.3425:

Stealth needs to be changed to work exactly like the adrenaline change. It’s called balance, guys. Stealth is WAY more forgiving than adrenaline.

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- Guardian activated aegis when you stealthed? Good, he counterplayed you. I’m sure you’ll just stealth again in 4 seconds again anyway while his aegis is on a 90s cooldown.

- Necromancer used well of darkness and you missed? He counterplayed you with a 50s cooldown. Your stealth is on a 4s cooldown.

- Thief spamming evades while you’re stealthed? Nice, you’re both overpowered.

- Warrior used his shield block while you stealthed? Cool, he’s actually playing the game. His block is now on a 25s cooldown while you can stealth again in 4s.

- Meditation guardian using multiple sources of block, blind and evades while you’re stealthed? He’s using cooldowns to randomly try to mitigate your overpowered skills with no telegraphs because you’re INVISIBLE.

---

If warriors could use burst skills while in invisible every 4 seconds and spam EVISCERATE EVISCERATE EVISCERATE EVISCERATE until it hits as well, the game would definitely reach esports status.

Excellent point Zefrost. It’s is about balancing the classes. Adrenaline change occur because Arenanet didn’t want warriors to spam burst skills til they land. So likewise, thieves should not be able to spam backstab til it lands. Other profession should have counter-play. If thieves attack when someone is blocking, then they should get punish for making a mistake and revealing themselves. This will prevent thieves from mindlessly spamming attacks from stealth. Good thieves will know when to attack and when to hold off. Arena has always been looking for ways to counter-play stealth and I think this suggestion certainly helps.

Thief gets 1 advantage over warrior and here we go…
Sad thing is the “balancing” team will listen because warrior is their favorite class.

Zefrost.3425:

Stealth needs to be changed to work exactly like the adrenaline change. It’s called balance, guys. Stealth is WAY more forgiving than adrenaline.

---

- Guardian activated aegis when you stealthed? Good, he counterplayed you. I’m sure you’ll just stealth again in 4 seconds again anyway while his aegis is on a 90s cooldown.

- Necromancer used well of darkness and you missed? He counterplayed you with a 50s cooldown. Your stealth is on a 4s cooldown.

- Thief spamming evades while you’re stealthed? Nice, you’re both overpowered.

- Warrior used his shield block while you stealthed? Cool, he’s actually playing the game. His block is now on a 25s cooldown while you can stealth again in 4s.

- Meditation guardian using multiple sources of block, blind and evades while you’re stealthed? He’s using cooldowns to randomly try to mitigate your overpowered skills with no telegraphs because you’re INVISIBLE.

---

If warriors could use burst skills while in invisible every 4 seconds and spam EVISCERATE EVISCERATE EVISCERATE EVISCERATE until it hits as well, the game would definitely reach esports status.

-On guardian, there are far better alternatives to hitting your virtue of courage to “counter” a thief in stealth.

-Revealed is 4 seconds, stealth is only guartuneed on builds like d/p which don’t require a target or long cooldowns like blinding powder or stealt traited (hidden thief), etc. Even so, on a necro vs d/p you could always DS→ fear them as they attempt to leap and ruin their day in those few seconds if backstab is an issue. That’s on any necro build.

-So you acknowledge invisible =/= invincible? Good to know I guess, but it sounds like you think thief should move at 90% reduced movement speed and lose all endurance when they enter stealth which just makes me giggle inside.

-Stealth lasts 3 seconds (on general applications), block lasts 3 seconds. Even so, you wouldn’t immediately throw up shield stance so you would have enough time to block and open them up. If you’re up against d/d and you can figure out how to use your shield then there is no hope for you.

-See first point. Pretty sure you don’t need a target for virtue of justice blind or blinding blade to apply its effects.

-The end of the line, eviscerate is a 10 second cooldown yes, but think about all the methods warrior can use to secure a strike. Crippling strike with axe throw, bolas, bulls charge, kick, shield bash, hammer #4 or #5, etc. With that, eviscerate stage 3 (incredibly easy to obtain) has a 3.0 multiplier and 1008 base damage while backstab has 2.4 multiplier and 806 base damage if it hits on the back or sides. Frontstab damage is actually weaker than a stage 1 eviscerate and is a reality forced upon many thieves who go up against players who have a clue.

Please L2p, don’t just make a bunch of profession and say you have experience with them without actually using them extensively. Only class I’ve struggeled with against thief is necro vs d/p steal spec because their blind and interrupts take advantage of me being rather slow, the rest just run away or come in groups which is the absolute worst place to use for an example of imbalance.

Whats next, comparing guardians to rangers?

Offair.2563:

Whats next, comparing guardians to rangers?

Well they both have spirits, soooo… ;o

It’s funny how the warrior-kiddies said you cannot compare different classes when people compared the damage potential of firegrab and eviscerate but now it seems to be ok.
I’d say ok, change stealth so that any use of stealth attacks causes revealed. but of course only stealth attacks then (remember, only the burst reduces adrenaline, so let’s keep things balanced, right?). throw in some nice traits that increase damage by 15% in stealth and make it that you automatically stealth after some hits in combat (again, like adren fills up) and i’m cool with it.

Play D/D stab assassin -> Understand why failing doesn’t reveal.

Frankly, the class with the lowest base health and lowest condition removal and one of the lowest damage immunity/prevention mechanics probably does warrant repeated damage spikes or some forgiveness in dealing damage.

I’d only be okay with revealed on misses/blocks if thief gets warrior’s Signet of Strength for ten seconds of unblockable attacks so that I’m not sitting on forced reveal because of someone’s class mechanic or because they rush-swapped a block/immunity which lasts just as long as my stealth duration and forces me down 6 initiative and 10% damage. But then people would cry even harder about unblockable backstabs.

When thieves get 30K HP, 600 HP regen, will be able to hit for 12k while building full tank, having stability, invul, multiple stun breakers, massive aoe that is twice the size of capture point…. then ya sure, let’s add reveal on block etc.

I play warrior, thief, mesmer and necro and frankly warriors is most faceroll and forgiving class i ever played. In fact, i am glad about adrenalin change because it will finally make sense. When i started to play warrior i actually was surprised that my adrenalin wouldn’t go away when i missed the skill.
Also, thieves already invest 9 initiative into backstab, wheither they land it or not. It is gone. Also, to make backstab do any dmg (which will be still lower than evicerate BTW) thieves have to go pretty glassy and have to be behind the target. Any half decent person will know how to protect their back from backstab.

This thread is amusing at this point. I’d love for ANet to occassionally make this and other changes that would cause massive rage and quitting of the game.

After we make dagger main hand and P/D builds unviable, next on the list should be fear chain, celestial amulet, kit swap recharges, healing signet, AI builds, screw it lets over time nerf everything into being unviable, and see what the playerbase looks like once it’s all said and done.

I think a block should give reveal as it is an active counter play. Anything else, blind, evade etc. should just pull the thief out of stealth, no reveal penalty. Punishment for failure is a good thing. Reward for counter-play is a good thing. Especially since a minimum of 1/2 your health pool is on the line.

Never going to happen unfortunately. As nice as it would be to have more natural counters to stealth instead of select Reveal applying skills, the Thief class would just be shut down by any random source of aegis. So this could only ever work with active blocking skills that a Thief can react to with certainty.

Any block blind or evade should pull a thief out of stealth. It would provide the desired counterplay to the class. If they need to buff other parts of the class to make up for it that is fine, but currently stealth provides no smart counterplay. Sure if the person is bad you can probably make a good guess as to where they are and spam aoes, or cleave attacks, but your still burning cooldowns like crazy. That certainly isn’t smart counterplay. While this would be a nerf to thieves it would provide counterplay for other classes. Currently the only counterplay is to have enough toughness/healing power/vitality to eat the stealth attacks, or to have enough cc to chain cc the thief until they lose all stun break cooldowns then burst them.

That isn’t good counterplay and it drives other burst classes out of the game. This change would allow smart players to counter stealthed thieves intelligently, while also providing a chance for Anet to buff other underperforming areas of the class. It might not seem like it, but even for thieves this would be better in the long run.

Dammerung.6419:

I think a block should give reveal as it is an active counter play. Anything else, blind, evade etc. should just pull the thief out of stealth, no reveal penalty. Punishment for failure is a good thing. Reward for counter-play is a good thing. Especially since a minimum of 1/2 your health pool is on the line.

I like this idea, it punishes the thief for just spamming attacks in stealth without actually punishing him if the attack misses…unless active blocks are in play.

Simonoly.4352:

Never going to happen unfortunately. As nice as it would be to have more natural counters to stealth instead of select Reveal applying skills, the Thief class would just be shut down by any random source of aegis. So this could only ever work with active blocking skills that a Thief can react to with certainty.

Unless they can somehow code it to where Aegis = exiting stealth without reveal, while still making it so active blocking = reveal.

zapv.8051:

Any block blind or evade should pull a thief out of stealth. It would provide the desired counterplay to the class. If they need to buff other parts of the class to make up for it that is fine, but currently stealth provides no smart counterplay. Sure if the person is bad you can probably make a good guess as to where they are and spam aoes, or cleave attacks, but your still burning cooldowns like crazy. That certainly isn’t smart counterplay. While this would be a nerf to thieves it would provide counterplay for other classes. Currently the only counterplay is to have enough toughness/healing power/vitality to eat the stealth attacks, or to have enough cc to chain cc the thief until they lose all stun break cooldowns then burst them.

That isn’t good counterplay and it drives other burst classes out of the game. This change would allow smart players to counter stealthed thieves intelligently, while also providing a chance for Anet to buff other underperforming areas of the class. It might not seem like it, but even for thieves this would be better in the long run.

Main hand dagger stealth builds already have counterplay. WvWers just complain about P/D because it’s a ranged condi build, and stealth gives it similarities to a ranged condi bunker.

Thief stealth in general has more than enough counterplay as is. That’s why you rarely see teams winning tournaments with a dagger mainhand thief in the comp. I’ve also never seen a tournament where P/D thief has been part of a comp and that team won.

I main thief and I am against this. When I’m in stealth and trying to land a back stab on a warrior I should be able to just spam 1 until it eventually hits. I’m pretty lazy and don’t pay attention to blocks like shields or aegis so as long as I can just keep mashing my number 1 I’ll be happy.

I’m pretty content with playing D/P because I can basically just do blinding powder > heart seeker, and back stab and win even against good players. I normally just farm PvE stuff and using this combo makes it easy.

Please don’t make it so blocking reveals.

simple put, thieves should NOT BE PENALIZED for spamming backstab, this game has too many numbers and stuff already to pay attention to in big fights…why should we now have to see if the opponent has shields or aegis on?? its stupid, and should be fixed. Thieve class is built around stealth and IMO there isn’t enough. An easy fix for this to make everyone happy would be to make it so backstab reapplies stealth on hit, that way the thieves dont have to spam cloak and dagger, which is what people are mad about

EvilSardine.9635:

I main thief and I am against this. When I’m in stealth and trying to land a back stab on a warrior I should be able to just spam 1 until it eventually hits. I’m pretty lazy and don’t pay attention to blocks like shields or aegis so as long as I can just keep mashing my number 1 I’ll be happy.

I’m pretty content with playing D/P because I can basically just do blinding powder > heart seeker, and back stab and win even against good players. I normally just farm PvE stuff and using this combo makes it easy.

Please don’t make it so blocking reveals.

This gets you eaten for breakfast, lunch, and dinner in the top 1000.

If you are beating team comps by repeating only 1 rotation of skills, it gives a good idea level of competition you are playing against.

You’re without stealth and in melee range for 4 seconds at time, and completely vulnerable when putting that rotation on a loop by itself.

Loving the troll QQ. Especially when mainhand Dagger thief is a weaker meta build when playing in the top 1000.

Find recent tournaments with a mainhand Dagger thief in the winning comp. How many are there going back how long?

Maybe 3 conquest tournaments in the past 5 months out of 40ish, between weekly tournaments for EU and NA plus 2 ToL?

Slow clap good arguments guys, well done. This has been much fun, but I grow bored of these weak arguments having no substance.

Loading.4503:

First off I play both so I’m not really biased towards either thief or warrior, but since those are the only 2 I play I’ll compare these 2 only. But I feel like with the changes to adren, then thief needs to be revealed if their attack from stealth gets blocked also it’s pretty much the evuivelant IMO.

I’m sure this has been brought up before somewhere but I’m on my phone at work and it’s hard enough to read through the forums, just wanted to see everyone’s opinion on this and feel free to bring up other stuff from other professions

Similar requests have been made in the past. Myself and another group had asked for the adrenaline dump on miss/block/etc before cleansing ire was even in game and for the reveal on missed/blocked/etc stealth attacks.

Anet will continue to hold the hands of Thieves because a large majority of them would just quit if they actually made it take skill to play the class (same reason why Mesmer clones persist and deal the same damage until shattered or destroyed, or the same reason why the un-dead minions of necromancers do not have high health degeneration).

Adrenaline dump on miss/block/etc is a step in the right direction for skillful play. Now they need to address the other above mentioned lazy/extremely passive play styles and hand holding bs.

I really love how now that the warrior is finally getting toned down everyone is losing their minds.

Shockwave.1230:

zapv.8051:

Any block blind or evade should pull a thief out of stealth. It would provide the desired counterplay to the class. If they need to buff other parts of the class to make up for it that is fine, but currently stealth provides no smart counterplay. Sure if the person is bad you can probably make a good guess as to where they are and spam aoes, or cleave attacks, but your still burning cooldowns like crazy. That certainly isn’t smart counterplay. While this would be a nerf to thieves it would provide counterplay for other classes. Currently the only counterplay is to have enough toughness/healing power/vitality to eat the stealth attacks, or to have enough cc to chain cc the thief until they lose all stun break cooldowns then burst them.

That isn’t good counterplay and it drives other burst classes out of the game. This change would allow smart players to counter stealthed thieves intelligently, while also providing a chance for Anet to buff other underperforming areas of the class. It might not seem like it, but even for thieves this would be better in the long run.

Main hand dagger stealth builds already have counterplay.

Besides what I listed which isn’t realistically good counterplay, what counterplay?

zapv.8051:

Shockwave.1230:

zapv.8051:

Any block blind or evade should pull a thief out of stealth. It would provide the desired counterplay to the class. If they need to buff other parts of the class to make up for it that is fine, but currently stealth provides no smart counterplay. Sure if the person is bad you can probably make a good guess as to where they are and spam aoes, or cleave attacks, but your still burning cooldowns like crazy. That certainly isn’t smart counterplay. While this would be a nerf to thieves it would provide counterplay for other classes. Currently the only counterplay is to have enough toughness/healing power/vitality to eat the stealth attacks, or to have enough cc to chain cc the thief until they lose all stun break cooldowns then burst them.

That isn’t good counterplay and it drives other burst classes out of the game. This change would allow smart players to counter stealthed thieves intelligently, while also providing a chance for Anet to buff other underperforming areas of the class. It might not seem like it, but even for thieves this would be better in the long run.

Main hand dagger stealth builds already have counterplay.

Besides what I listed which isn’t realistically good counterplay, what counterplay?

To view a few examples, multiply the following by negative one as there is much sarcasm

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Thief-get-nothing/page/2#post4373635

I mostly agree with OP, but I can understand the problems this would cause thieves.

I still favour a middle-ish ground where Sneak Attacks get a 2s CD if they fail, meaning the thief can then either choose to back off or use another CD to re-stealth and try again. This doesnt leave the thief so vulnerable by being releaved, but stops them spamming 1 till it works.

On a simular topic though, MH Dagger and Pistol thieves really need changing to be less dependant on their sneak attack in the first place. It should be a nice extra element to the weapon like it is on the Sword, but not the one and only thing they can do with it to do any real damage. That is a large part of the problem, because if you nerf the sneak attack too hard these sets in their current form become useless.

ok i’m going to start by saying I play both theif and war although not much theif lately (or war for that matter) but i’lll just go on and say.

I don’t like the adrenaline nerf although it’s not the nerf that got me in a jiffy with this coming patch sigh

as far as thieves reveal after failing a stealth attack. it’s honestly not that bad. ok you miss your revealed you got to kite / avoid damage for a small amount of time till you can re stealth it’s really not that hard to do. kite for what 10 secs?.

as far as my warrior perspective i’m more annoyed at the adrenaline change not so much upset. ok we have to hit our burst if we miss we’ll have another shot very shortly. it’s not like it’s the end of the world to miss 1 burst and have to recharge.

as far as major draw back yah dps may take a slight hit due to having to rebuild adrenaline in pve. ofc we do have 2 skills that will help with that. with all that said warrior’s overall dps just isn’t that great.

Shockwave.1230:

The reason you can’t do this is that blind, aegis, and 1 time block skills would completely prevent thief from being able to deal damage while in stealth. Thus means when a thief stealths all it can do is run away or eat damage.

Almost like blind, aegis, and 1 time block skills will completely shut down burst skills after the patch….

fellyn.5083:

Shockwave.1230:

The reason you can’t do this is that blind, aegis, and 1 time block skills would completely prevent thief from being able to deal damage while in stealth. Thus means when a thief stealths all it can do is run away or eat damage.

Almost like blind, aegis, and 1 time block skills will completely shut down burst skills after the patch….

It’s really not even slightly comparible. Warriors do not depend on their burst skilsl to do damage. They are nice, sure, really nice in some cases, but by no means are they the only or main damage source.

A Dagger thief without BS is a sad joke, they wouldnt get someone past 80% health.

fellyn.5083:

Shockwave.1230:

The reason you can’t do this is that blind, aegis, and 1 time block skills would completely prevent thief from being able to deal damage while in stealth. Thus means when a thief stealths all it can do is run away or eat damage.

Almost like blind, aegis, and 1 time block skills will completely shut down burst skills after the patch….

wait so you’re saying that counterplay and skill will stop things? say it isnt so!!!! so glad thieves will never have to experience counter play.

How about a, dare I say, middle ground for those for and against this.

Increase the aftercast of backstab to 1 second. Additional effect, gain quickness for 1 second on successful backstab hit.

This punishes the thief for missing a backstab so they can’t so quickly try again, but reverses that punishment if they make contact so the aftercast is essentially ignored.

There is your example of a reasonable suggestion instead of just “give them reveal if they miss because stealth = adrenaline and Life force = adrenaline and pets = adrenaline, etc”. I remember some main warriors actively protesting against flat out comparing 1 mechanic to another and here we are, seeing a warrior doing just that with zero regard to the profession as a whole. Please be reasonable if you want something changed :/

Edit: Misread.

I’m pretty okay with the above if it stops people from whining.

NinjaEd.3946:

How about a, dare I say, middle ground for those for and against this.

Increase the aftercast of backstab to 1 second. Additional effect, gain quickness for 1 second on successful backstab hit.

This punishes the thief for missing a backstab so they can’t so quickly try again, but reverses that punishment if they make contact so the aftercast is essentially ignored.

There is your example of a reasonable suggestion instead of just “give them reveal if they miss because stealth = adrenaline and Life force = adrenaline and pets = adrenaline, etc”. I remember some main warriors actively protesting against flat out comparing 1 mechanic to another and here we are, seeing a warrior doing just that with zero regard to the profession as a whole. Please be reasonable if you want something changed :/

Honestly I’d be cool with that. Wouldn’t be so much a nerf as it is a change.

The thing with block…

Aegis blocks should not reveal stealth and should not deplete a warrior’s adrenaline. Aegis can last long, and can in fact outlast stealth 2x or 3x (or infinite for the virtue passive) can be gotten from external sources, and the character can still attack, heal, AoE, etc. while protected by Aegis. So a thief or a warrior is not really counterplayed by Aegis, and because of that, I think that Aegis should not reveal the thief or drain the warrior’s adrenaline. Just imagine a thief entering stealth and the guardian getting auto-Aegis from virtue. You were not actively counterplayed and you still can’t land a stealth attack. I can see that being frustrating for thief players.

Now, active blocks such as Shield Stance, Parry, Counterblow, Protector’s Strike, etc. are completely different. Those last for a very short period, have to be actively used by the player him/herself and prevents the character from doing anything else while blocking. Now this looks more like counterplay, and I agree that such blocks should both drain a warrior’s adrenaline AND reveal a thief in stealth.

Dagraan.2854:

fellyn.5083:

Shockwave.1230:

The reason you can’t do this is that blind, aegis, and 1 time block skills would completely prevent thief from being able to deal damage while in stealth. Thus means when a thief stealths all it can do is run away or eat damage.

Almost like blind, aegis, and 1 time block skills will completely shut down burst skills after the patch….

wait so you’re saying that counterplay and skill will stop things? say it isnt so!!!! so glad thieves will never have to experience counter play.

Yeah, exactly. Counter-play. Some one says “but those things shouldn’t make a thief lose stealth” but for some reason, they should make a warrior lose his adrenaline.

Why is one okay for a warrior but not for a thief?

I at least believe that a thief should be revealed if you dodge their attack with an evade and only an evade. This requires legitimate skill since your two evades cannot be abused like weapon based evades, blocks, blinds, invulnerabilities.

In reality though I agree with the OP and the thief should be altered till it makes sense rather than having a large heap of exceptions for the class to even exist.

Monoman.2068:

I at least believe that a thief should be revealed if you dodge their attack with an evade and only an evade. This requires legitimate skill since your two evades cannot be abused like weapon based evades, blocks, blinds, invulnerabilities.

In reality though I agree with the OP and the thief should be altered till it makes sense rather than having a large heap of exceptions for the class to even exist.

Just a thought, but maybe people play the class because they like it conceptually? Would you remove attunements from ele’s or Illusions from mesmers?

As someone said before, missing bs for thief means most of their dmg is gone. The proposed change would just render any dagger thief useless so the natural thing that would happen is buff to every other dagger spell (which would be heartseeker, shadow shot, death blossom etc.). I don’t think you would want buffs to neither HS or SS as those don’t even have stealth requirement and still can be spammed to certain extend unlike bs.

Also, as mentioned before, warriors are not that dependent on F1 skill and some of them can’t even miss (sup combustive shot). Warriors also can live through mistakes thanks to their huge survival ability.

The poster above said, thief should kite for 10 sec, shouldn’t be a problem. The joke is, 10 sec in pvp is huge, thieves don’t any real tools of survival in open unless they play perma evade which is not even dagger MH build so completely irrelevant. Add to that huge nerf to BP and still rather useless CnD vs any decent opponent, you have a free loot bag.

Next patch already gonna force remaining d/x thieves into s/d build, i am not sure what you people are trying to accomplish here. Delete the class?

Thats exactly what many people want to see basically (in their backmind), which are too incompetent to play against thieves.

Thieves have already more than enough counter play and even get with the next patch even more hard counter play, that will easily make the class completely unplayable, if this crap should in any way stack later.

They are health wise the weakest class, they are the weakest class when it comes down to condition removal.
If Mesmers get now torment on auto attack, this will crush thieves totally !!

The Thief got so far from all patches just like only 90 % nerfs and 10% buffs – and those 10% buffs are then always things nobody has asked for or completely wrong useless buffs that nerf something else, therefore that something else got buffed like moving assassins reward to grandmaster, therefore that this crap hard to catch could get moved to master and this only therefore that assasins reward received a slight buff, which is still in its current situation way too weak to be any danger for a high auto regeneration warrior.
Meanwhile all other classes mostly always got somewhere significant buffs.
Its enough
Its finally time, that thiefs get some of their super useless and underpowered traits merged, that they get their utility skills merged so that you can realyl say that they have some utility skilsl that don#t let them loose their stat performance if you decide for having a bit more control or more survival abilitiy.
No other class also like thives get so incredibly hard crippled, when going into underwater combat.
The thief nearly loses everything what makes us survivable on land under water, also something that didn’t got fixed for 2 years now…

Their venoms are mostly useless since 2 years and only viable in 1 single build!!
Their traps are just junk compared to the ranger traps and a waste of a utility slot mostly all times, except maybe ambush, which can be sometimes handy.
Venoms have to become finally the thieve’s main gameplay, so that thieves can become finally more unpredictable through them.
Thieves need to become less reliant of stealth, therefore they need more options of stability/vigor and a base health thats the same niveau of the ranger.
D/D needs to get changed finally into a true power build, currently is a useless hybrid build thats to weak under power builds and useless as condition build.
If D/D would be more viable as true power build, then you’d not see so much P/D and S/D thieves around in this game. Also P/P needs some changes to become more viable with the other builds in comparison

ANet keeps on adding more and more thief hard counters, due to a large amount of whining incompetent players which are unable to play against thiefs, that are unwilling to learn how to play agaisnt a decent good thief , when it isn’t absolutely rocket science to learn to protect yourself from being attacked from behind.
The first and foremost most simplest rule to fight against thieves is spamming movement controling skills.

Keep them crippled, keep them chilled, keep them stunned and immobilized, do that constantly until they run out of their stun breakers and condition removes and you have an easy time to catch them offguard where you can kill them quickly.

If you see them stealth, protect you passively, spam AoEs around yourself, use aegis/block skills ina timed way.
You know exactly, how long it usually takes a thief, to attack you from behind, if you play self thief and you will have the FRIGGING EXPERIENCE how your enemy most likely will attack you and especially when and where.
If you see us shadow refuge, use aoe stuns or skills that knock us out of the refuge to reveal us in most cases, unless you play agaisnt a good thief, that sees this attack coming and dodges it in stealth.

It also helps alot, when you know, what initiative your enemy has used up, because when you know how much initiative your enemy has used up, you much likely will know too, when your enemy runs out of initiative and when your time has come for some quick counter attacks, thats another reason why its important to play a thief self, and why people that QQ about thieves will always get as answer back a simple L2P, because its easier to just complain about things that you can’t beat and want to see nerfed to death due to being self too incompenent tolearn to defend yourself correctly.

When I fight against an other thieve and get killed, because my foe just outplayed me through better usage of stealth at the right time – then its so, i’ve to accept it, that I got outplayed and need to learn to defend myself better in such situations.

I don’t just run into the forums and keep on whining for years, that thieves should get nerfed in every single tiny aspect of their game design, only because I am unwilling to improve my own gamign skills!! And thats what is exactly the case here in this forum sadly.

NinjaEd.3946:

Thief is far less forgiving even with such rules like not revealing when they haven’t dealt direct damage. Thief cannot make nearly as many mistakes as warrior, warrior’s need to not sulk in this “nerf” when all they had to do is just execute an F1 and win.

Although I agree thief is less forgiving and revealing them for everytime a random Aegis or blind prevents the damage is a bad idea, those random Aegis and blinds also prevent the damage from the warrior burst.

I think the nerf is a step in the right direction, although I do think it is a slight overnerf.

I main a warrior, and I also play thief secondary (playtime is about 4-1 in favor of warrior). I never lose a duel against a warrior on my thief, while I lose plenty the other way around.