Guild Wars 2

I don’t play warrior, and I have to say that the rage against the signet is overrated. It is far from necessary. Even with the adrenaline heal combined, it heals the same as a guardian built for bunker. Any class can counter it, and almost every build can too. Warriors may have it easier, but it isn’t a matter of easily being op, it is a matter of it being easier to learn and become decent. Any good player on any class can counter the average warrior easily. It is good warriors fighting decent players that cause the rage. That is why there is hate on necros, and thieves, and every class to some degree. It is just the prevalence of warriors that people find it a problem, but warrior has been the most prevalent class in the game since launch, so stop whining and grow up.

sierras.6297:

Even with the adrenaline heal combined, it heals the same as a guardian built for bunker.

The fact that a guardian must build for bunkering (using Cleric gear with a Mace/shield and Staff and with at least 50 points spent into defensive traitlines) to achieve the same healing amount that any warrior (from Soldier, to Zerker, regardless of the weapon, with only 15 mandatory traitline points) has is just stupid imho.
Not to mention that putting a poison field or interrupt an Empowering is one of the easiest thing to do in this game.

Healing signet is strong because most of the population loves playing with low dps builds.

runeblade.7514:

Healing signet is strong because most of the population loves playing with low dps builds.

^^This, against High DPS builds Healing Signet is really kind of meh.

Julie Yann.5379:

runeblade.7514:

Healing signet is strong because most of the population loves playing with low dps builds.

^^This, against High DPS builds Healing Signet is really kind of meh.

Pretty much.

Also – can we stop these threads until AFTER the new balance patch hits – and we see ALL The new changes and maybe how they work together?!

sierras.6297:

I don’t play warrior, and I have to say that the rage against the signet is overrated. It is far from necessary. Even with the adrenaline heal combined, it heals the same as a guardian built for bunker. Any class can counter it, and almost every build can too. Warriors may have it easier, but it isn’t a matter of easily being op, it is a matter of it being easier to learn and become decent. Any good player on any class can counter the average warrior easily. It is good warriors fighting decent players that cause the rage. That is why there is hate on necros, and thieves, and every class to some degree. It is just the prevalence of warriors that people find it a problem, but warrior has been the most prevalent class in the game since launch, so stop whining and grow up.

Please teach me how to bunker on a Guardian with just 1 skill.

Back before the DD ele major nerfs during one of the 2012 SoTGs the devs said something along the lines of that heals need an opportunity to be interrupted. It was in reference to the mist form healing nerf. Imho the main issue with HS is the active sucks and regen can not really be interrupted.

‘Why healing signet is over powered’-

Because the passive always delivers the highest health per second (hps) of any healing skill. Always.

Because it is strong against its counters. Unless a warrior is already at a reduced health pool and/or has defenses/escapes on cool down, bursting a high defense high health class is incredibly difficult in first pass.

Poison reduces hps from strongest to strong (around 300 hps) and that is only if maintained 100%. Reduced application has reduced effects.

The active is actually low-average to average hps (160-200) when compared to other classes heals.

Bust the main reason I dislike it is because it is a sloppy and dull way to add sustain to a class. Makes my warrior boring.

Coldtart.4785:

Or because every other warrior healing skill is bogged down in pointless utility that warriors can get better versions of elsewhere and healing signet is the only one that just heals and heals high. Does it heal too much? I don’t 1v1 warriors enough to know. But the simple fact is warriors will always use the highest HP/s heal in their list.

Perhaps the heal interval should be lengthened so it heals every 3 seconds instead to accentuate the weakness to burst in return for the large heal rate.

i disagree wih the other utility healing skills being pointless

but yes healing signet heals to much because it is usualy combined with
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Adrenal_Health
wich makes gives warrior 400 hp per second plus another 360 hp every 3 seconds

as for the other heals being useless:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mending+http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Restorative_Strength and you got a 5-6k heal+ massive condition remover on a stupidly short cooldown

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Surge+http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Restorative_Strength 10k heal+cc remover 30 second cooldown

give a 10k heal that removes cc to medium classes and you ll see just how worthless it really is

Fun fact: Bunker engineers with healing bombs and backpack regenerator need over 1600 healing power to achieve warrior’s passive regen and they are extremely succeptible to conditions

Rezzet.3614:

Coldtart.4785:

Or because every other warrior healing skill is bogged down in pointless utility that warriors can get better versions of elsewhere and healing signet is the only one that just heals and heals high. Does it heal too much? I don’t 1v1 warriors enough to know. But the simple fact is warriors will always use the highest HP/s heal in their list.

Perhaps the heal interval should be lengthened so it heals every 3 seconds instead to accentuate the weakness to burst in return for the large heal rate.

i disagree wih the other utility healing skills being pointless

but yes healing signet heals to much because it is usualy combined with
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Adrenal_Health
wich makes gives warrior 400 hp per second plus another 360 hp every 3 seconds

as for the other heals being useless:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mending+http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Restorative_Strength and you got a 5-6k heal+ massive condition remover on a stupidly short cooldown

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Surge+http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Restorative_Strength 10k heal+cc remover 30 second cooldown

give a 10k heal that removes cc to medium classes and you ll see just how worthless it really is

Fun fact: Bunker engineers with healing bombs and backpack regenerator need over 1600 healing power to achieve warrior’s passive regen and they are extremely succeptible to conditions

Mending has a pitiful 262 healing every second, which does nothing for the warrior health pool in which we are trying to keep healthy. Just because we have the highest health pool in game does not mean we don’t need to keep it up as such, and Mending will never do the job on its own. Its condition removal is out-dated by recent changes to traits and thusly needs to be tweaked or reworked to compensate.

Healing Surge is way too restrictive and not every build will run Restorative Strength with it. I have already many a time described the overwhelming issue with this heal in question, but frankly it needs a rework so that it does not punish too severely for using it too early.

Sykper.6583:

Rezzet.3614:

Coldtart.4785:

Or because every other warrior healing skill is bogged down in pointless utility that warriors can get better versions of elsewhere and healing signet is the only one that just heals and heals high. Does it heal too much? I don’t 1v1 warriors enough to know. But the simple fact is warriors will always use the highest HP/s heal in their list.

Perhaps the heal interval should be lengthened so it heals every 3 seconds instead to accentuate the weakness to burst in return for the large heal rate.

i disagree wih the other utility healing skills being pointless

but yes healing signet heals to much because it is usualy combined with
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Adrenal_Health
wich makes gives warrior 400 hp per second plus another 360 hp every 3 seconds

as for the other heals being useless:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mending+http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Restorative_Strength and you got a 5-6k heal+ massive condition remover on a stupidly short cooldown

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Surge+http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Restorative_Strength 10k heal+cc remover 30 second cooldown

give a 10k heal that removes cc to medium classes and you ll see just how worthless it really is

Fun fact: Bunker engineers with healing bombs and backpack regenerator need over 1600 healing power to achieve warrior’s passive regen and they are extremely succeptible to conditions

Mending has a pitiful 262 healing every second, which does nothing for the warrior health pool in which we are trying to keep healthy. Just because we have the highest health pool in game does not mean we don’t need to keep it up as such, and Mending will never do the job on its own. Its condition removal is out-dated by recent changes to traits and thusly needs to be tweaked or reworked to compensate.

Healing Surge is way too restrictive and not every build will run Restorative Strength with it. I have already many a time described the overwhelming issue with this heal in question, but frankly it needs a rework so that it does not punish too severely for using it too early.

thats the problem warrior has the highest health but also has the highest armor
so by running berserker mixed with cavalier gear you got yourself a hard hitting ultra mobile fortress .

I am so sick and tired of people jumping on the nerf-train on pretty much every single “competitive” game.

Let me lay down some facts about Warrior’s before the recent (and some not so recent) nerfs:

1. A few patches ago almost every weapon has some sort of viable build attached to it. Axe used to but it had it’s auto attack damage, which was it’s only strength, tied to the last attack that is simple to avoid. Rifle is the only weapon that stands out as being generally terrible, sure it has some uses in WvW and you can do some cheeky stuff with Bow/Rifle but it’s all cheese and easily countered. Offhand axe is also pretty mediocre considering even with the Whirling Axe buff the auto still hits harder.

2. These builds all fulfilled different roles from DPS, Control, and Conditions. If you liked variety then Warrior was your best bet.

3. Nerfs to skills like Skull Crack have simply destroyed the viability of certain builds. I focus on SC because now even if you count dodges and set things up the slower cast time and short range means that the skill will sometimes just whiff even if you’re right on top of someone. The Unsuspecting Foe move also hurt the Mace+GS build, which served a different role than Hambow. Yes, it was bad that a Soldier gear Warrior cold have around up to 95% crit chance if Fury was up but then they should have just reduced the bonus because now you much choose between it and Forceful GS. The rest of the Mace skills aren’t all that great so it needs that synergy. If UF had it’s bonus reduced to around 15% extra crit chance it would still be a solid option but if you ran with Soldiers your DPS would be crap. The 10 pt Arms traits are now in that same awkward spot that the Strength 10 pt traits are where unless you’re running a very specific build there’s few “good” options. Simply reducing UF’s effectiveness would have also forced Hambow users to make a choice between it and Leg Specialist because both would be equally useful. It doesn’t matter if you like these builds or not the fact remains that removing entire builds and weapons from viability is not healthy.

3. As stated before by others Warrior’s other heals are lackluster compared to HS. Try running one of the current meta builds but replace your heal and see how well you do. If HS must be nerfed then the other heals need looking at. Defiant Stance’s concept is cool but it needs a PvP split to be worthwhile. Mending has potential for DPS builds so that they can just run it and Zerker Stance. They’ll still be more vulnerable than someone with Cleansing Ire + Dogged March but that’s fine. There’s also some cool synergy to be had with Restorative strength. Either it needs another CD reduction, the active needs to be stronger, or it needs some sort of short Zerker Stance effect after using . Healing Surge’s design is just bad and punishes you for using your class mechanic. Without a full bar it’s heal is pathetic for the CD. As for how to make it worthwhile that’s tricky. I’m not sure if just making it a flat heal would make it too strong, maybe just have it fill only 1 bar or perhaps none at all, however that would be pretty boring. As for HS itself If they just ever so slightly increase the active then the passive heal nerf would be fine by me. It would actually be cool to get the random boon from using your heal and once again it would make Restorative Strength worth using considering when traited it has a pretty short CD. I actually WANT some healing changes because it means more build diversity, but they have to be careful because they risk sending Warriors to the Ele tier of useless (in PvP).

4. Before the most recent nerfs Warrior was the most complete class in the game, no contest. It had a use in every game mode, the greatest number of builds, and the most polish. Now several of those builds are simply not worth using because there are better options. This isn’t a good thing. We need to stop jumping on the “nerf X” bandwagon. Over the lifetime of this game it’s been proven that balancing by using soft counters isn’t working. It was the Warrior being able to hard counter the meta condi builds that finally lead to the meta shifting a bit. With more hard counters it becomes more about team work and composition. It also helps to avoid power creep because if you’re just making sure that everything has some sort of counter builds aren’t actually becoming more statistically powerful. I can name very few games that focus on “soft” counters that actually feel balanced.

5. The Warrior of a few patches back should have been the measuring stick that the balance team should have striven to bring all other classes up to. Forums are great for getting ideas on what to buff (within reason), but terrible for deciding what to nerf. Players who main something and have merit are generally more objective but if they’ve never touched another class then they will clearly be biased. I say this knowing that I’m biased towards Warriors because I enjoy(ed) playing them the most. I am aware of this bias though and so I avoid going to other classes forums and saying “nerf X” because I have no clue when it comes to some classes. Sure I’ll say how much I hate fighting Mesmers and Thieves because I find Clones and Stealth to be boring mechanics but I’ve only played them just enough to know what their skills do so I can fight them. I don’t know enough to offer balance advice.

Anyways this became a bit of a rant but long story short is that we need to get out of this nerfing mindset and focus on what class we main needs to have improved rather than sticking our noses into thins we aren’t qualified to talk about.

Mightymealworm.8409:

‘Why healing signet is over powered’-

Because the passive always delivers the highest health per second (hps) of any healing skill. Always.

You forgot one very important factor, it has the hps of any healing skill without having to use healing power. This has always been the biggest issue to me. Every other class has to invest in relatively high healing power to scale their heals. Warrior does not need to with healing signet.

It gives high returns no matter what gear you wear. A guardian with high healing power still can not have greater healing over time than a warrior in zerker gear. I feel if healing signet had to use lots of healing power to reach it current numbers, no one would complain. As there would be a trade off to obtain great sustain. Currently there is no trade off other than choosing to select healing signet over other heals.

I say nerf it because warriors need to realize how to actually specialize. You can’t spec for burst and still have sustain. The signet will still be strong on builds designed to be tanky, the difference is burst or heavy damage builds won’t be able to achieve the same effect. As it is, healing signet is pretty much the universal heal skill for warriors. Combined with the other passive play traits of adrenal health and cleansing ire, you’d be hard pressed to get poison to last more than 7 seconds on a warrior.

But I also believe that the other heals should be altered to be better in certain situations. They should have a heal for tanking(signet), they should have a heal that encourages bursting(like mesmer’s new heal that recharges phantasms) and a heal that is designed to clear and protect from conditions. But as it stands, the sustain heal grossly overshadows other heals in both condition and power situations. The only time it really doesn’t blow the other heals out of the water is incredibly high bursts.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Rezzet.3614:

thaooo.5320:

Healing Signet is not OP.

The cry of many babies is OP.

Learn to GW2.

^ this is what we call a scrub

More like someone that relies on how broken Warrior is to be any “good” and knows once/if that Warrior gets fixed then he will struggle with the class that has made it so easy for him to look “good”

This argument is so old and overused, not to mention weak. Of course, the original post was also weak because it didn’t offer any facts. That being said, you probably have never played in a game with him so you have no way of knowing how good or bad he is. Attacking the person instead of the argument, no matter how weak, doesn’t accomplish or prove anything.

I don’t care what class we’re talking about, there is no build that will turn a bad player into a good one. Yes, certain classes are easier to learn, but a new/poor player will not use a build to its utmost potential. In PvP they will also probably make poor decisions such as fighting off point while having less points and picking fights that aren’t winnable. Hambow for example has a lot of might stacking potential but not many actually take advantage of that. They often tend to just spam skills like Combustive Shot on CD which will make them lose out to a good condi Necro or Mesmer or really anyone.

What you said is also insinuating that Warrior players only play the class because it’s “easy,” not because they might actually enjoy the playstyle. I know that if I try to play and of the magic classes or things like melee Ranger I can’t stand the playstyle because you either basically target a guy and press your skills or let your skills do all the moving for you (I kept canceling skills on the Axe/Dagger + Sword/Torch Ranger build because I’m so used to having so much control over my movement). At least on Warrior I can hit people without having them targeted all the time when playing melee and this makes things much more fun that your average point-and-click MMO. I think I would like it if the game took a few tips from Smite and made more attacks ground targeted, especially Blade Trail, if I could target it myself maybe it would actually hit someone not standing still.

I dont see why they cant just reduce it (so its worse than their other heals) and make it scale MUCH better with healing power (so that with some invetment it becomes a monster, potentially even stronger than it is now with enough investment).

Theres nothing wrong with build regen builds, there are plenty of other classes than can and do do it (guardians, rangers, eles, even engis in their own way) and I dont have a problem with warriors stacking massive regen too if they feel like it. But for a ranger to do that they need to invest 600-1000 points into healing power, as do guardians, as do eles.

Regen builds should require healing power.. thats what the stat is there for, yet somehow warriors seem to have no use for it.

The problem with it is, it costs them NOTHING right off the bat it is insanely broken when every other class has to HEAVILY build for Healing Power they have no need when combined with a 15point trait they get 1325- 1560Hp3second At what cost? 1 signet and 15 trait points.

It is clear that Adrenal health upper health as well as Healing Signet need to be nerfed down not only in its base healing but make it require actual Healing Power to make it really strong.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

The problem with it is, it costs them NOTHING right off the bat it is insanely broken when every other class has to HEAVILY build for Healing Power they have no need when combined with a 15point trait they get 1325- 1560Hp3second At what cost? 1 signet and 15 trait points.

It is clear that Adrenal health upper health as well as Healing Signet need to be nerfed down not only in its base healing but make it require actual Healing Power to make it really strong.

Here’s the deal, biggest thing people keep forgetting.

HPS versus Health Pool. You can actively observe the relationship between HPS and Health with every single build on each profession. Higher than average HPS with lower than normal Health Pools will hinder sustained damage builds but favor extremely high burst. High Health Pools with Low HPS creates a build whose sustain cannot actually refill the health in any significantly low amount of time, thus this build is not only suspectible to burst but also any real sustained damage. Having an extra 3k life does not equate well in losing 100 HPS.

Factoring in how they are nerfing the Healing Signet already by 8% soon (fairly specific number mind you), Arenanet is making the stance that yes, Healing Signet is strong, but not NEARLY as strong as people are raving about. If warriors cannot sustain their advantage in a health pool, they would demand to have at least some compensation like Protection access instead since the extra couple thousand life would be easily burned through without having any way to get it back up.

I have NO problem with them having such Regen BUT it needs to come at a cost, it should NOT be as simple as equipping the signet and then spending 15 trait points – if they want such broken regen then they should have to invest in Healing Power gear in order to get it that high.

Healing Signet and Adrenal Health need to be adjusted. Both need to have a higher requirement of Healing Power seeing as without NONE they can get such regen is a joke.

You also have to consider other class mechanics when talking about healing, you cannot directly compare them without factoring in everything from Aegis, Protection, Stealth, Clones, Evades, blind, etc. This point has been beaten to death but so many just ignore it because it’s an inconvenient fact to have to face. Their only significant form of sustain comes from this regen, they have one evade on GS and one longish block on shield. People who don’t play Warriors will go on and on about what Warriors do have while totally disregarding what they lack.

Like all games the Warrior archetype focuses on raw power and their armor in order to survive while other classes. sustain themselves via other means. They always look really strong if you just compare base states and ignore anything else. A lot of people, myself included, enjoy being the guy that doesn’t use magic or deception to get things done. Right now they walk the fine line between strong and useless because before Healing Signet all those other traits and skill changes didn’t make them worth using.

I hate repeating myself all the time but very few ever actually confront the points I bring up and would rather just say “Healing Signet is better than X heal, therefore OP.”

BurrTheKing.8571:

You also have to consider other class mechanics when talking about healing, you cannot directly compare them without factoring in everything from Aegis, Protection, Stealth, Clones, Evades, etc. This point has been beaten to death but so many just ignore it because it’s an inconvenient fact to have to face.

Warrior has the joint highest health, joint highest Armor, Blocks, Invuls, Immunities and the BEST regen in the game…

They don’t need Protection or Aegis when you can just face tank everything and have plenty of skills to negate damage while STILL getting heals without doing ANYTHING and you have Immunities that allow you to continue to heal AND deal damage

With all of that and more – Do you HONESTLY think that Healing Signet and Adrenal Health is balanced?

Warriors don’t have clones/stealth/aegis/evades etc. That’s because they don’t need it. They have the bursting power with minimal points spent to take down bursty classes like thieves with a few well placed skills and the sustain necessary to not fall to a burst build. Heck, I’d give up stealth on my thief for a passive heal strong enough to keep me alive through bursts in a heartbeat.

The main reason healing signet/adrenal health leaves a bad taste in people’s mouths is because it is all passive play. Everything about a warriors sustain screams brainless. Automatically regen health, no need to worry about poison or when to use heal because its always going off and there is no real reason to use the active. No need to worry about conditions because they naturally cleanse themselves when you use burst skills every 9 seconds. Low on hp? Endure pain will automatically activate for you, giving you 4 seconds of that passive healing to get you back to a safe spot.

Necrotize.2974:

Warriors don’t have clones/stealth/aegis/evades etc. That’s because they don’t need it. They have the bursting power with minimal points spent to take down bursty classes like thieves with a few well placed skills and the sustain necessary to not fall to a burst build. Heck, I’d give up stealth on my thief for a passive heal strong enough to keep me alive through bursts in a heartbeat.

The main reason healing signet/adrenal health leaves a bad taste in people’s mouths is because it is all passive play. Everything about a warriors sustain screams brainless. Automatically regen health, no need to worry about poison or when to use heal because its always going off and there is no real reason to use the active. No need to worry about conditions because they naturally cleanse themselves when you use burst skills every 9 seconds. Low on hp? Endure pain will automatically activate for you, giving you 4 seconds of that passive healing to get you back to a safe spot.

FYI, I laugh at warriors running Defy Pain, such a bad trait-

Anyways, you made points that we don’t need clones/stealth/other tools, but then what do we have if we don’t capabilities out in the open? Nerfing Berserker Stance to its previous incarnation and warriors have zero means to deal with overwhelming conditions, since Cleansing Ire only cures up to three conditions BASED on your Adrenaline. Nerf Cleansing Ire and we don’t have any natural condition removal in our utilities save Mending whose abysmal flat heal needs some help, and Shake it off does NOT count enough. Warriors finally have a means to deal with conditions, and there are counters to said means.

Warriors have to juggle these long CD stances and signets for a reason, we have to pop them at right times since the uptimes aren’t nearly as long as you would think. Not to mention most of the weapons for warriors do not proc Cleansing Ire unless they go off and/or hit a target, Longbow is the only one that reliably applies the burst as a special case, but it is getting another nerf in March.

We have our means to withstand it all, other professions have theirs. Warriors are in a good spot right now, but that doesn’t mean other professions do not have their own issues.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

BurrTheKing.8571:

You also have to consider other class mechanics when talking about healing, you cannot directly compare them without factoring in everything from Aegis, Protection, Stealth, Clones, Evades, etc. This point has been beaten to death but so many just ignore it because it’s an inconvenient fact to have to face.

Warrior has the joint highest health, joint highest Armor, Blocks, Invuls, Immunities and the BEST regen in the game…

They don’t need Protection or Aegis when you can just face tank everything and have plenty of skills to negate damage while STILL getting heals without doing ANYTHING and you have Immunities that allow you to continue to heal AND deal damage

With all of that and more – Do you HONESTLY think that Healing Signet and Adrenal Health is balanced?

You literally just proved my point to the letter, focusing on only what they have and not what they don’t have . Those immunities are good, but both come with hefty cooldowns and both only make you immune to ONE type of damage. If you pop both at the same time then you leave yourself wide open and a good player will simply play defensively for the few seconds that whatever immunity that counters them is in place.

There are plenty of builds that counter not only the current Warrior meta but many other builds as well, mainly on Thieves and Mesmers but Ranger’s have that melee build (0/0/30/30/10) that wrecks Hambow as well and is a good home bunker and is basically the Ranger version of Warrior’s s/s+lb. There are even Engi builds that are great counters (Protection Injection ftw). You don’t see these very often in SoloQ and hotjoin but against good TPvP teams there’s generally at least one person build to counter Hambow. It’s a team game, which is another factor to consider when balancing. It’s not just about how a build does 1v1, but how it affects team fights as well.

EDIT: Sykper made a good point that if you nerf Warrior’s condi removal/mitigation they would go back to being dominated by it. To expand on that we would also see a resurgence of teams with nothing but condi Necros and Spirit Rangers because their hard counter is suddenly a joke.

It’s still an issue of other classes being deficient, not Warrior being too strong.

BurrTheKing.8571:

It’s still an issue of other classes being deficient, not Warrior being too strong.

Now this is a hen or egg discussion because it is purely based on the perspective. Also, this will lead to the thing called power creep which nobody wants. ANet literally stated this is one of their major concerns. Conclusively, there will always have to be nerfs at some point.

Xaylin.1860:

Now this is a hen or egg discussion because it is purely based on the perspective. Also, this will lead to the thing called power creep which nobody wants. ANet literally stated this is one of their major concerns. Conclusively, there will always have to be nerfs at some point.

That is why they introduced Ascended accessories, then weapons and then Armor. This game has a TERRIBLE Power Creep. So if they are trying to prevent it – they have done a terrible job thus far.

BurrTheKing.8571:

You also have to consider other class mechanics when talking about healing, you cannot directly compare them without factoring in everything from Aegis, Protection, Stealth, Clones, Evades, blind, etc. This point has been beaten to death but so many just ignore it because it’s an inconvenient fact to have to face. Their only significant form of sustain comes from this regen, they have one evade on GS and one longish block on shield. People who don’t play Warriors will go on and on about what Warriors do have while totally disregarding what they lack.

Warriors lacking boons, evades and stealth doesn’t justify them having a powerful heal with the least counters in the game. Everything you listed that other professions use have cooldowns and opportunity costs. Even the ele’s method of sustain healing is instant cast with little to no counters besides just dps or hoping poison sticks; however, there is a cooldown for attuning to water (so chill is actually a viable counter), you have to switch to the lowest dps attunement and invest 30 points into arcana to max out the healing per second. The opportunity cost for healing signet is you miss out on the other heals that are all pretty much objectively worse in nearly every situation.

If healing surge healed for 15k base regardless of adrenaline, that would be better for the game than healing signet. At least make warriors stop their cc and damage chain for a second to heal like everybody else. Give people a chance to interrupt the heal. Let us increase the cooldown with chill. Make warriors have to use that tiny bit of extra skill and thought regarding when to activate their heal. Even if warriors need op healing skills, they at least shouldn’t be the most boring and brainless skills to use and play against.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

While it is not warrior exclusive not all classes have access to them all and even less have all that access combined with joint highest health, joint highest armor, BEST passive regen in the game…

^ You keep saying this bit. ^

V But have never seem to understood this bit. V

Aegis, permanent Vigor/Regeneration, Protection, Stealth, Shadowsteps, Clones, Evades, blind, etc.

There is a reason warrior has higher hp and armour than other classes, because it does not have to above mechanics as a supplement for hp/armour. And it is really frustrating how you haven’t understood the point of those mechanics yet.

The warrior doesn’t have high hp/armour because “ANet loves warriors ANet gives warriors everything”, its because they do not have these above mechanics which are literally a supplement for health and armour, they negate/nullify/sustain damage in their own way.

Tei.1704:

Warriors lacking boons, evades and stealth doesn’t justify them having a powerful heal with the least counters in the game.

Um, yes, yes it does. It really, definitely, 100% does.

Do you even comprehend what those mechanics bring to a fight and how they mitigate damage? You’re also forgetting shadowsteps. Read what protection does, and think about how that mitigates damage. Read what evasion does, and then think about how that applies to fights and how it mitigates damage. Read what stealth does, then think about how that affects incoming damage. Read about shadow steps, and then think about how those help mitigate damage too. Read about blind and block, and think about how those can stop, and do frequently stop, big hitting skills or tactically important skills.

^ The only one of the above that the warrior has is a little bit of block, warrior has none of the rest, they are all a massive deal and you cannot in any way shape or form argue against that.

Please please PLEASE, stop with the silly healing signet bashing. It boggles our minds how you neglect everything else in the game.

Necrotize.2974:

Heck, I’d give up stealth on my thief for a passive heal strong enough to keep me alive through bursts in a heartbeat.

Fact: Healing signet is EXTREMELY vulnerable to bursts and high dps builds.

????
????

So much face palm for you

Lmao, funny.

((Ps use withdraw, not hide in shadows, withdraw is 500x better))

BurrTheKing.8571:

I hate repeating myself all the time but very few ever actually confront the points I bring up and would rather just say “Healing Signet is better than X heal, therefore OP.”

I have read your posts in this thread. You claim my original post is weak, because I present no facts.

Is it not a fact that the healing from HS cannot be interrupted, and thus circumvents the counterplay which other classes face when they try to activate their heal?

Is it not a fact that a hambow warrior principally has access to 3 condi cleanse/10 sec?

Is it not a fact that HS starts healing you from the moment you start taking damage?

I state facts, and from the facts I infer certain problems with HS compared to other heals.

I quoted this particular part of your post because it is seething with hypocrisy. You see, in your posts, you didn’t even address any of the points I made in my original post! Instead, as you put it yourself, it became a rant about the general nerfs various warrior builds have received. Fear not though, you are far from the only one to do so of the posters in this thread.

In the end of my post, I point out that I would love to see a useful active for HS to compensate for a nerf of the passive healing. Healing Surge and Mending are both lackluster alternatives, although mending would be fine if it healed 6,5-7k.

I don’t want warrior sustain to be lowered compared to what it is now. I want a risk involved with the current sustain warrior has.

Warriors complaining about “sustain” is hilarious.

Apparently the highest health and highest armor values in the game isn’t enough. Warrior “sustain” is a massive EHP pool. Other classes get sustain that they have to trait into just to equal a warriors natural advantages.

Lets put Warriors in cloth and lowest HP pool for a while. They are so spoiled they don’t value what they have.

Xae.7204:

Warriors complaining about “sustain” is hilarious.

Apparently the highest health and highest armor values in the game isn’t enough. Warrior “sustain” is a massive EHP pool. Other classes get sustain that they have to trait into just to equal a warriors natural advantages.

Lets put Warriors in cloth and lowest HP pool for a while. They are so spoiled they don’t value what they have.

1) Necromancers have the highest health pool.

2) Continue ignoring all the other defensive mechanics in the game that warrior has none of (evasion, blind, stealth, shadowstep, protection, regeneration abundance)

3) Healing Signet is destroyed by burst. Stop playing bunker for once. HS is a sustained heal, not a burst heal, burst damage means the signet cannot keep up.

Facepalm. So very much facepalm.

Xae.7204:

Lets put Warriors in cloth and lowest HP pool for a while. They are so spoiled they don’t value what they have.

See point 2 above.

SO MUCH FACEPALM!

Xae.7204:

Warriors complaining about “sustain” is hilarious.

Apparently the highest health and highest armor values in the game isn’t enough. Warrior “sustain” is a massive EHP pool. Other classes get sustain that they have to trait into just to equal a warriors natural advantages.

Lets put Warriors in cloth and lowest HP pool for a while. They are so spoiled they don’t value what they have.

How you talk is if you don’t know anything about how warriors where before the signet buff. Prior to the signet buff that large “massive EHP” you speak off didn’t do anything for them.

You have to have played a warrior before this buff to signet to understand. Also damage was brought down for warriors once they received these buffs. To very strong damage traits Berserker’s Power and Heightened focus where moved to Grandmaster. Warriors still do good damage though even in tanky gear.

There has to be something for warriors to be able to sustain in the fight. Most of this thread is people talking about how its OP over and over but not really offering any suggestions. It’s like I know it’s OP so nerf it. Some want it nerfed into the ground only to force Warriors to run the other 2 heals which they actually did before this buff.

sierras.6297:

Even with the adrenaline heal combined, it heals the same as a guardian built for bunker.

you just pointed out why people say it is imbalanced
it s a heal that gives you as much healing as a full healing power gear and trait specced class without using a single piece of gear and perhaps using 15 points in traits

thaooo.5320:

1) Necromancers have the highest health pool.

2) Continue ignoring all the other defensive mechanics in the game that warrior has none of (evasion, blind, stealth, shadowstep, protection, regeneration abundance)

3) Healing Signet is destroyed by burst. Stop playing bunker for once.

Facepalm. So very much facepalm.

1) So? Necromancers don’t have Blocks, Immunities, insane self regen, insane mobility, damage reduction and other things.

2) As above your ONE signet heals MORE than Regen with someone that has actually gotten Healing Power – Yours comes with just susing the Signet. Your signet also can not be corrupted or removed. Also – you have as abaove Blocks, Immunities – while STILL healing and doing damage/cc, Damage reduction, same Mobility, insane CC, condition cleansing and others do you REALLY think you need more?

3) Burst is destroyed by having the joint top health, highest armor, Blocks, Invuls and other skills. Don’t be so silly to try and make out that Burst kills Warriors and suddenly makes Healing Signet weak – It doesn’t everyone knows it.

oZii.2864:

Xae.7204:

Warriors complaining about “sustain” is hilarious.

Apparently the highest health and highest armor values in the game isn’t enough. Warrior “sustain” is a massive EHP pool. Other classes get sustain that they have to trait into just to equal a warriors natural advantages.

Lets put Warriors in cloth and lowest HP pool for a while. They are so spoiled they don’t value what they have.

How you talk is if you don’t know anything about how warriors where before the signet buff. Prior to the signet buff that large “massive EHP” you speak off didn’t do anything for them.

thats because back then all warriors ran berserker with greatsword only trait builds

hell back then players stood under wvw gates attacking and being destroyed by grenades now people know all you have to do is move side to side and those wont tickle you

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

thaooo.5320:

1) Necromancers have the highest health pool.

2) Continue ignoring all the other defensive mechanics in the game that warrior has none of (evasion, blind, stealth, shadowstep, protection, regeneration abundance)

3) Healing Signet is destroyed by burst. Stop playing bunker for once.

Facepalm. So very much facepalm.

1) So? Necromancers don’t have Blocks, Immunities, insane self regen, insane mobility, damage reduction and other things.

2) As above your ONE signet heals MORE than Regen with someone that has actually gotten Healing Power – Yours comes with just susing the Signet. Your signet also can not be corrupted or removed. Also – you have as abaove Blocks, Immunities – while STILL healing and doing damage/cc, Damage reduction, same Mobility, insane CC, condition cleansing and others do you REALLY think you need more?

3) Burst is destroyed by having the joint top health, highest armor, Blocks, Invuls and other skills. Don’t be so silly to try and make out that Burst kills Warriors and suddenly makes Healing Signet weak – It doesn’t everyone knows it.

^the fun thing is he/she says it as if warriors werent a burst heavy class when the main combat mechanic of warrior is bulding adrenaline to use Burst skills wich insta kill most non bunker classes

Rezzet.3614:

oZii.2864:

Xae.7204:

Warriors complaining about “sustain” is hilarious.

Apparently the highest health and highest armor values in the game isn’t enough. Warrior “sustain” is a massive EHP pool. Other classes get sustain that they have to trait into just to equal a warriors natural advantages.

Lets put Warriors in cloth and lowest HP pool for a while. They are so spoiled they don’t value what they have.

How you talk is if you don’t know anything about how warriors where before the signet buff. Prior to the signet buff that large “massive EHP” you speak off didn’t do anything for them.

thats because back then all warriors ran berserker with greatsword only trait builds

hell back then players stood under wvw gates attacking and being destroyed by grenades now people know all you have to do is move side to side and those wont tickle you

Have you wondered why Warriors ran alot of zerker with GS? Back then warrior was go in do as much damage as you can and run out. Wait for cooldowns to come back up. 0/20/30/0/20 has been around for a long time back then there was no reason to take Dolyak signet since you had balance stance. Now alot of warrior run it so +180 toughness. The 0/20/30/0/20 build was 2.7-3k depending on how you built it. That is not full zerk because melandru goes with it.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

1) So? Necromancers don’t have Blocks, Immunities, insane self regen, insane mobility, damage reduction and other things.

2) As above your ONE signet heals MORE than Regen with someone that has actually gotten Healing Power – Yours comes with just susing the Signet. Your signet also can not be corrupted or removed. Also – you have as abaove Blocks, Immunities – while STILL healing and doing damage/cc, Damage reduction, same Mobility, insane CC, condition cleansing and others do you REALLY think you need more?

3) Burst is destroyed by having the joint top health, highest armor, Blocks, Invuls and other skills. Don’t be so silly to try and make out that Burst kills Warriors and suddenly makes Healing Signet weak – It doesn’t everyone knows it.

1) Not sure why you wrote all this unnecessary stuff, I listed Necromancers as having the highest hp because that person had his facts very wrong.

2) AWWWWWW YEEEEE BUDDY. I LOVE THE 30/30/30/30/30 BUILD WHERE IM ALLOWED TO USE 6 WEAPON SETS WITH 3 ARMOUR SETS EQUIPED AT ONCE. LMAO! LOL! AAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA. What a joke, LMAO face palm of the highest order. FAAACEEEPAAALMMMM

3) You mean you’ve deluded yourself into believing a false reality. It is based on no factual information and frankly it is really funny, please continue

Please keep ignoring the rest of the skills/abilities/mechanics in the game and what other classes have, while you post about one skill as though nothing else exists in the game, as though every other class are literally designed as practice dummies. It makes for a oh soooo highly intelligent read.

thaooo.5320:

Necrotize.2974:

Heck, I’d give up stealth on my thief for a passive heal strong enough to keep me alive through bursts in a heartbeat.

Fact: Healing signet is EXTREMELY vulnerable to bursts and high dps builds.

????
????

So much face palm for you

Lmao, funny.

((Ps use withdraw, not hide in shadows, withdraw is 500x better))

I do use withdraw, and rarely use stealth because I don’t like that if a thief is going to be defensive they need to spec for stealth to get sustain, hence I’d trade stealth in a second for passive play like a warrior. A few suggestions, change signet of malice to scale proportionally to how much damage is done on the hit, with a cap of course. Remove/transfer conditions on steal, remove conditions on dodge, etc. But I guess if a thief had passive play then everyone would cry “nerf it into the ground”.

I’ve played a warrior before(not my cup of tea so didn’t play for long) but I did play long enough to get a feel for skill cycles. I never once found myself planning my burst skills around conditions or thinking I should use my healing signet active. Those problems just kind of sorted themselves out without me thinking about it. Covered in conditions? Chances are my burst skill is off cd and I’ll kill two birds with one stone that I was gonna throw anyway.

thaooo.5320:

2) AWWWWWW YEEEEE BUDDY. I LOVE THE 30/30/30/30/30 BUILD WHERE IM ALLOWED TO USE 6 WEAPON SETS WITH 3 ARMOUR SETS EQUIPED AT ONCE. LMAO! LOL! AAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA. What a joke, LMAO face palm of the highest order. FAAACEEEPAAALMMMM

Dont use that sad pathetic excuse.

lets see i said : As above your ONE signet heals MORE than Regen with someone that has actually gotten Healing Power – Yours comes with just susing the Signet. Your signet also can not be corrupted or removed. Also – you have as abaove Blocks, Immunities – while STILL healing and doing damage/cc, Damage reduction, same Mobility, insane CC, condition cleansing and others do you REALLY think you need more?

Healing Signet = The BEST passive regen in the game no question.
Blocks = Shield
Immunities = Utilities
CC = Hammer
Condition Cleansing = Traits

So in fact EVERYTHING i said you could have in 1 build without your childish “30/30/30/30/30” sarcasm. Sword/Shield and Hammer gives you insane CC and 3 second block, you could take Dolyak Signet for damage reduction, you could take the 2 Utilities for damage and condition immunities. Healing Signet for the insane passive rege. The ONLY thing needed from traits would be Condition removal for that you have Cleansing Ire.

thaooo.5320:

Xae.7204:

Warriors complaining about “sustain” is hilarious.

Apparently the highest health and highest armor values in the game isn’t enough. Warrior “sustain” is a massive EHP pool. Other classes get sustain that they have to trait into just to equal a warriors natural advantages.

Lets put Warriors in cloth and lowest HP pool for a while. They are so spoiled they don’t value what they have.

1) Necromancers have the highest health pool.

2) Continue ignoring all the other defensive mechanics in the game that warrior has none of (evasion, blind, stealth, shadowstep, protection, regeneration abundance)

3) Healing Signet is destroyed by burst. Stop playing bunker for once. HS is a sustained heal, not a burst heal, burst damage means the signet cannot keep up.

Facepalm. So very much facepalm.

Xae.7204:

Lets put Warriors in cloth and lowest HP pool for a while. They are so spoiled they don’t value what they have.

See point 2 above.

SO MUCH FACEPALM!

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Health#Base_health_by_profession

No, Warriors and Necros have equal health pools.

High HP: Warriors, Necro
Medium HP: Engineer, Ranger, Mesmer
Low HP: Thief, Elementalist, Guardian

Heavy Armor: Warrior, Guardian
Medium Armor: Engineer, Ranger, Thief
Light Armor: Elementalist, Mesmer, Necro

Notice a Pattern?
Value High/Heavy at 3, Medium at 2 and Low/Light at 1.

Elementalist: 2
Thief: 3
Mesmer: 3
Guardian: 4
Engineer: 4
Ranger: 4
Necro: 4
Warrior: 6

A guardian needs to Aegis or Regen 8K health just to equal a Warriors base HP pool.

Quite simply: The people who claim burst is a counter for HS are idiots.

1. No one deals 22k burst damage on plate armor.
2. Burst is not sustained (burst: An abrupt, intense increase; a rush).

Thedenofsin.7340:

Quite simply: The people who claim burst is a counter for HS are idiots.

1. No one deals 22k burst damage on plate armor.
2. Burst is not sustained (burst: An abrupt, intense increase; a rush).

Hence why I and others also list high dps as well as burst. Believe it or not, it is very common to do 25k damage or more over 10-15 seconds of combat, without full zerk specs. (assuming you can actually hit them most of the time, cough thief/mesmer)

You know, sustained damage that hits for much more than the signet is healing the warrior. (zerker, rabid, rampagers, knights/valk/cav, celestial)

thaooo.5320:

Thedenofsin.7340:

Quite simply: The people who claim burst is a counter for HS are idiots.

1. No one deals 22k burst damage on plate armor.
2. Burst is not sustained (burst: An abrupt, intense increase; a rush).

Hence why I and others also list high dps as well as burst. Believe it or not, it is very common to do 25k damage or more over 10 seconds of combat, without full zerk specs.

You know, sustained damage that hits for much more than the signet is healing the warrior. (zerker, rabid, rampagers, knights/valk/cav, celestial)

The issue is the absurd sustainability.

The whole “just burst the warrior down” assume the warrior doesn’t dodge or doesn’t have any defensive cooldowns.

Actually, that might be balanced. Remove all Warrior Defensive cooldowns, remove warrior dodge. That could work!

thaooo.5320:

Hence why I and others also list high dps as well as burst. Believe it or not, it is very common to do 25k damage or more over 10-15 seconds of combat, without full zerk specs. (assuming you can actually hit them most of the time, cough thief/mesmer)

You know, sustained damage that hits for much more than the signet is healing the warrior. (zerker, rabid, rampagers, knights/valk/cav, celestial)

Forgetting that Warrior have Blocks and damage reduction as well as damage Immunity that could cut that 25k damage down to what 5 maybe 10k at best seeing as the Immunity lasts for 8seconds. All the while being able to deal damage/CC/Run and passively heal for more than 3,000health(with no traits, gear or anything) at NO cost, NO skill use just passively healing…

Well then, lets turn the argument warriors love to use against them. You’re not looking at the whole picture. Warriors possess quite a great amount of both soft and hard CC in addition to field control or blocks making it quite unlikely that the warrior will just stand there waiting for his regen to kick in while you burst him down. They will stun you, or knock you down, or block you, or even just set the ground on fire with longbow so you don’t want to follow.

The regen wouldn’t be so bad if it meant warriors couldn’t CC people so well. Getting low on health? Knockback with hammer, pin down with bow then plink away while your hp steadily climbs back up. By the time they get back, you’ll have regained a good chunk of what they took with the opening burst and done some dmg to them.

The advantage of heavy burst is that you can catch an opponent and then hopefully down them before they even have time to react. This is quite difficult on warriors due to their large hp pool and passive defenses meaning it is unlikely you will down them before they have time to react and this is where their strength lies.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Healing Signet = The BEST passive regen in the game no question.
Blocks = Shield
Immunities = Utilities
CC = Hammer
Condition Cleansing = Traits

Questionable, Altruistic Healing pulls crazy numbers, as well as Signet of Malice, which is capable of restoring thousands per second.

Every class is capable of combining all of those aspects into a single build, on top of their additional mechanics like perma vigor, perma regeneration, protection, evade, shadowstep, blind and stealth. That’s not a warrior exclusive combination.