Guild Wars 2

Zacchary.6183:

Chris.4527:

inexperienced jabber

A warrior can afford to go heavy into zerk, put on tanky traits and then hit for 5k+ with bursts while allowing for cleanse and great adrenaline gain. Allow me to demonstrate…

With this I can do this:

1.)10k Burst heal and then keep a constant regen for 124 a second.

2.) I can still easily deal burst damage above 5k+ as shown below:

Power * Weapon Str * skill coefficient / Armor * modifiers

2284 * 857 (weapon strength minimum) * 3.0 (eviscerate 3 bars) / 2200 = 2669.165 * 2.65 (crit and +% damage with banner out) = 7073

3.) If I switch out HS for Signet, burst heal is gone but it jumps to a total of 527 a second. This is constant and without having to apply stealth. If I were to calculate HPS between the thief you are describing and the warrior I am describing it would look like this:

Thief (Shadow Refuge, Hide in Shadows, both regen traits in SA and Deception -20% CD)

Hide in Shadows (becuz its better than withdraw): 5540 + 1670 (regen on stealth) + 668 (base regen) + 1292 (HPS in stealth)= 9170

Shadow Refuge (traited): 1690 * 5 = 8450 + 6460 (HPS in stealth) = 10130

Perfectly Timed C&D x 6 (becuz we are maximising HPS right?): 323 * 24 = 7752 + 1670 (stealth HPS) = 9422

9170 + 10130 + 9422 = 28722 / 48 =

598.375 HPS

Warrior (Banner Regen, banner -20% CD and Cleansing ire. Healing signet and Surge trade off)

Healing Signet: 402/s

(or)

Healing Surge: 10,120 / 30 = 337

Banner: 124/s

402/s + 124/s = 527/s (signet)
337/s + 124/s = 461/s (surge)

So you are a little more than half-right about thief’s regen capabilities. But hold on a moment, let’s look at what both my toons did within those 48 seconds of HPS calculation:

Thief
Shadow Refuge > Wait 20 seconds > Hide in Shadows > wait 4 seconds > Cloak and Dagger and then wait 4 seconds x3 > Repeat.

Warrior
Healing Surge (if equipped) > Press 7 > Wait 30 seconds (96 of using healing signet) > Healing Surge (if equipped) > repeat

Yeah a thief can out HPS a warrior but a warrior has 96 seconds to do w/e the warrior wants. The thief, however, cannot leave stealth or even become revealed without suffering loss in HPS and making him useless for the duration of the calculation.

Now Chris, you need to go back to that warrior of yours and be glad you don’t have to bust your kitten for all the OP stuff you have.

You’re looking at the “perfect situation” – when it will barely happen, if at all.

Warriors are not seen that much in the “roaming” stuff, its dominated by thiefs(wonder why?), mesmers, engineers, sd/sf/dd eles. You do have your random warrior roamer, but hes far and few between.

Now, this thread is a discussion about thieves. But I will debunk your build for you with your inexperienced jabbering.

2400 armor is decent, but with a thief he’ll chew right through that with cnd spam.

Banner regen – wvw/roaming/etc is dominated by thieves – keeping this up against a thief, is near impossible. Poison will thwart that any second its up.

And during that 30 seconds, a thief can/will burst your hp from full to 0 while youre waiting on your only 100 hp/sec which will be thwarted because of poison.

I literally have no idea what your logic is behind this build you’re trying to explain, its downright terrible.

Please, keep this discussion about thieves and SA in the future please.

Chris.4527:

Brando.1374:

Chris.4527:

NinjaEd.3946:

Zenith.7301:

I love how thieves are comparing it to warrior healing without factoring in the part where most classes can’t hit you in stealth because stealth disables targeted attacks and ground placed aoe is not only weak but scarce and in some cases totally absent from other classes.

So while the warrior is broken and regens more, he is also not stealthed ever and is taking constant damage to counter some of the regen whereas the thief stops all damage dead on its tracks by stealthing and heals to boot.

And all of those thief perks also come with the bonus of 5-6k backstabs on medium high toughness builds.

Hell, I’m sure warriors would love being able to do eviscerates while invisible so nobody can dodge that kittened damage.

Necro- Wells, marks, DS
Engi- nades, bombs, non-target based kit attacks
Guardian- gs, staff, heck even torch
Warrior- lb, gs, axe, hammer #3 and burst, stomp, etc
Mesmer- counter to thief
Ranger- traps, torch, entangle
elementalist- king of aoe

Aoe attacks aren’t scarce, even my axe/focus d/d necro can locate thieves, and often I have knocked them out of sr and killed them moments later. SA is not op, its a defensive trait line that lets thieves run glassy builds. Even with 30 in SA, thief toughness/armor are not high, they still go down easy due to being the lowest health tier. If a thief is not glassy and they’re running SA, chances are they are running some t-word spec and are there more to just annoy you than kill you. Only reason you should die to such builds is if you’re new and/or easily fooled.

Invisible =/= Invincible. Sooner you understand that the sooner we can see balance vs. flat nerfs because people aren’t willing to L2P.

Ah the always “L2P” issue. I have clocked many many hours on this game, but I am not going to post a “resume” on a forum. I beg of you, please come to the Maguuma/SOS/FA tier, and come fight some ridiculous thieves. The ones who know how overpowered SA is, will even admit to it being OP.

Me vs D/P is not a hard fight. dont stand in smoke field, predict their movement (since I also have a thief I have a good idea where they could be)

Me vs s/d is a near impossible fight unless they miss time their evade. (most good s/d thieves dont go 30 in sr)

Me vs p/d its a 80% chance I win due to not getting the conditions xfered over fast enough.

im on mag btw

Thats a shame, the best thieves ive ever fought are on mag. To bad you wont be able to fight them!

And also Brando, this is not about SPVP where the main build is 10-30-0-30, SPVP cant support shadow arts since the crit dmg lock, etc.

I used to be on TC and before that Ebay so I have faced Mag quite a few times

Chris.4527:

Warriors are not seen that much in the “roaming” stuff, its dominated by thiefs(wonder why?), mesmers, engineers, sd/sf/dd eles. You do have your random warrior roamer, but hes far and few between.

Maybe this is different on the other side of the big pond, but here in the middle tiers of EU I have recently seen more enemy warrior roamers than thieves. Warriors all use some mobility build, which almost invariably means the use of great sword (= high damage + extremely high mobility in one weapon!), often coupled with longbow, hammer or sword/shield combination. The same warrior build can have the best land speed, very good condition cleansing, very good resilience towards movement impairing conditions like immobilize, relatively high damage and burst, very good access to crowd control, good healing, good armor and high health, even some immunities, all in one build. All that is so good, I have seen a lot of enemy roamers swap into warriors.

I agree that thieves have traditionally dominated roaming and all other professions are far behind, but right now it seems the roaming profession TOP3 is:
1. & 2. (tied) warriors and thief
3. PU mesmer

It all boils down to the ability to handle 1 vs many situations and ability to reset fights. These two are the most important features of a roamer. Secondly a roamer needs enough damage to take down opponents and solo capture supply camps. Thieves can of course easily do that.

I would still argue that Shadow Arts line itself is not that overpowered, but duration of the stealth is the biggest problem in a WvWvW setting. Unlike in spvp, where the maps are smalls and you cannot contest a point in stealth, there is no real disadvantage of stealth in WvWvW. Stealth allows stealth stomping, get past and through enemy zergs with ease, get into enemy surrounded tower or keep with ease and allows the player to try to gank enemies and if the ganking fails, simply reset the fight with stealthing. To make things even easier, thieves of course have access to short-range teleportation (shadowstepping), which also like stealth lacks real hard counters (ranger Sic ’Em barely counts, the likelyhood of getting revealed by this skill in WvWvW is extremely low).

The maximum duration of stealth, no matter if it comes from smoke combo fields or skills like shadow refuge, needs to limited to max 8 seconds, like I argued in my other message in this thread. Long stealth is overpowered, allows trolling, easy reset of fights, contesting enemy keeps and makes fights frustrating and boring. Revealed should also be a bit longer, like 4 seconds. My suggestion would apply to all professions e.g. engineers can currently achieve much longer than 8 s stealth by using a lot of blast finishers and smoke field.

At the same time I would entirely remove stealth traps from the game.

Chris.4527:

You’re looking at the “perfect situation” – when it will barely happen, if at all.

Warriors are not seen that much in the “roaming” stuff, its dominated by thiefs(wonder why?), mesmers, engineers, sd/sf/dd eles. You do have your random warrior roamer, but hes far and few between.

Now, this thread is a discussion about thieves. But I will debunk your build for you with your inexperienced jabbering.

2400 armor is decent, but with a thief he’ll chew right through that with cnd spam.

Banner regen – wvw/roaming/etc is dominated by thieves – keeping this up against a thief, is near impossible. Poison will thwart that any second its up.

And during that 30 seconds, a thief can/will burst your hp from full to 0 while youre waiting on your only 100 hp/sec which will be thwarted because of poison.

I literally have no idea what your logic is behind this build you’re trying to explain, its downright terrible.

Please, keep this discussion about thieves and SA in the future please.

But I have stayed on topic. This is about the Shadow Arts traitline and it’s healing capabilities, am I correct?

I just wanted you to see the difference between a your class and the thief class so you can understand the contrast between them both. Granted, a thief is rarely going to do what I listed, but its possible and it can be tested so it isn’t invalid.

Secondly, my point is still backed up by math (feel free to check) while you are just copying the gripes of all the other players who complain about thieves daily. Same thread, same complaint.

Point being: this is purely QQ thread by another player who got ganked by a thief because they failed to pay attention. You are completely biased and wrong in your accusations, you leave out valid information painting a false picture and you failed to prove anything legitimate because of it.

By all means, this thread should be locked because it is a repeat of previous complaint threads.

Thieves are the one class that can safely get in the back and harass free casters safely. Maybe a Mesmer.

That is what they are good at they are the gear check. The glass rifle warrior in the back would be safe if it wasn’t for thieves that can pressure as he is hiding in the back kills shotting. That same warrior can also be one shotting thieves on the other side.

Chris.4527:

A warrior doesn’t burst for 7-9k with running healing signet to its max. Don’t kid yourself.

War’s regen is obnoxious, but it is getting nerfed as well on the upcoming patch, on the other hand this obnoxious trait is being ignored. A warrior cannot heal for 1000 hp/sec for example.

actually its around 700 hps on my spvp hammer war with a zerker build and adrenal healing at 3 bars
(and yes, when dogged march ticks also it is around 1000hps),
and all of this requires no stealth skills or you to stop attacking like thieves,
its constant and permanent without any input needed atall.

meanwhile pretty much every skill on my bar CCs and does 3-4k damage.

thieves that are regenning health won’t be attacking and they’re relying on using skills and surviving while they’re visible and squishy.

the warrior never activates his healing skills, they just heal away while he rolls his face across the keyboard.

i’m not saying that the thieves regen traits aren’t OP,
i’m just saying that wars are even more OP.

Chris.4527:

Bazzoong.7145:

Thieves heal to much, haha, whenever you think you seen it all…

Playing warrior damages your brain, something like 10/30/30/0/0 will never hit 10k backstabs, and to get the healing numbers you describe you’d have to get SA and Acrobatics to 30 points if you do that your backstab will crit for less than 2k on 2.5k armor.

Your “infamous” 10/0/30/0/30 S/D build is a joke.

10/30/30 D/P haha, HAHA!!!

I would love for you to come fight the amazing Maguuma/SOS/FA thieves who use these builds you’re laughing at to their fullest then.

Well, the main issue there is that this tier really has THE BEST THIEVES in NA. period. You really can’t compare us with any random thief running 30 in S. arts. It’s a totally different game.

@Heizero: I would like to argue on behalf of the Kaineng WvW thieves. There may be about 10 of us, but we are all very skilled. Some more than others, but we are all at least competent.
@OP: healing in stealth does not give an extreme amount of healing. Your numbers are far off, someone else posted the right ones on a typical thief build (10/30/30/0/0). Unless you calculated that while using healing power gear/traits, which almost no thief does. I don’t run with that trait all of the time, and can say it makes a marginal impact if the player is skilled enough to play thief properly. Stealth does not make you invincible. Their a are sti susceptible to attack and heavy damage. Stealth is primarily a tool for confusing the enemy. If a thief resets the fight with stealth, 1. You just won the fight. 2. You go into OOC regen, so them healing has no significance.

(Experience: played since beta; Thief, Warrior, Guardian, Engi, Nerco)

Best Wishes,
Oscuro of Kaineng

Neko.9021:

Shadow’s Rejuvenation is indeed quite strong: wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow’s_Rejuvenation

However, such a Thief that spams stealth:
-Does not really help in speedclearing dungeons in PvE
-Does not contribute much in a Zerg fight in WvW
-Does not capture or contest points well in PvP

So they really don’t do very much that impacts the game in any meaningful way. They just run around and harass people in hotjoins or in WvW “roaming”. I’m pretty sure that’s why this trait isn’t really considered a problem.

They kill stuff and they never die. That is useful no matter the game mode.

Conncept.7638:

Neko.9021:

Shadow’s Rejuvenation is indeed quite strong: wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow’s_Rejuvenation

However, such a Thief that spams stealth:
-Does not really help in speedclearing dungeons in PvE
-Does not contribute much in a Zerg fight in WvW
-Does not capture or contest points well in PvP

So they really don’t do very much that impacts the game in any meaningful way. They just run around and harass people in hotjoins or in WvW “roaming”. I’m pretty sure that’s why this trait isn’t really considered a problem.

They kill stuff and they never die. That is useful no matter the game mode.

They are also susceptible to dying. Nobody wants to actually TRY though.

oscuro.9720:

@Heizero: I would like to argue on behalf of the Kaineng WvW thieves. There may be about 10 of us, but we are all very skilled. Some more than others, but we are all at least competent.
@OP: healing in stealth does not give an extreme amount of healing. Your numbers are far off, someone else posted the right ones on a typical thief build (10/30/30/0/0). Unless you calculated that while using healing power gear/traits, which almost no thief does. I don’t run with that trait all of the time, and can say it makes a marginal impact if the player is skilled enough to play thief properly. Stealth does not make you invincible. Their a are sti susceptible to attack and heavy damage. Stealth is primarily a tool for confusing the enemy. If a thief resets the fight with stealth, 1. You just won the fight. 2. You go into OOC regen, so them healing has no significance.

(Experience: played since beta; Thief, Warrior, Guardian, Engi, Nerco)

Best Wishes,
Oscuro of Kaineng

Arguing what? I never said other servers don’t have good thieves. It’s just that the current T2 matchup has the largest concentration of extremely skilled thieves, coming from all 3 servers of the matchup. You can’t get higher quality on any other tier right now. Sorry if you got offended.

Remove Meld in Shadows (Stealth Skills last 1s longer,) and Shadow’s Rejuvenation (Recover health in Stealth,) nerf Shadow’s Embrace (Remove 1 condi/3 seconds while in stealth) And I think SA will be fine.

Using stealth is fine, but a player shouldn’t be rewarded for stalling in stealth forever, which is what Shadow’s Rejuv does.

Chris.4527:

Thats a shame, the best thieves ive ever fought are on mag. To bad you wont be able to fight them!

And also Brando, this is not about SPVP where the main build is 10-30-0-30, SPVP cant support shadow arts since the crit dmg lock, etc.

Who in the kitten runs 10/30/0/30/0? Also whoever said SA isn’t used in s/tpvp? I don’t think we play the same game. I wouldn’t call thieves who cry in stealth for 10+ seconds “the best thieves”. If you’re talking about thief squads, guess what, they are great at focus fire. They can all go power BS and melt a target in seconds, but that’s multiple people and something you can’t call op or they would nerf the party count from 5 to 1. #partyop.

Also, can’t spam CnD. Not sure what your definition of spam is, but CnD costs 6 initiative and is kitten easy to avoid. You don’t have anything to backup your claims other than an opinion.

You say sa heals too much? Pretty sure engi/ele/guardian/warrior can heal far more. A couple of those professions can even turn around and blow up roaming thieves if they’re spec’ed to do so which doesn’t require much other than a mind. SA is 1 of 2 defensive trait lines thieves get, and you can’t deal with it so you just want no build diversity? Whats your ideal enemy thief, 30/30/0/x/x full glass zerker? You can aa them to death before reveal wears off. You’re not experienced in this matter, and need to know that and start learning counters vs. throwing a fit and saying “I don’t wana”. People have given advice from another profession’s perspective, as well as general help and you just toss it aside thinking you’re to good for it.

Reikou.7068:

Remove Meld in Shadows (Stealth Skills last 1s longer,) and Shadow’s Rejuvenation (Recover health in Stealth,) nerf Shadow’s Embrace (Remove 1 condi/3 seconds while in stealth) And I think SA will be fine.

Using stealth is fine, but a player shouldn’t be rewarded for stalling in stealth forever, which is what Shadow’s Rejuv does.

Then the only form of condition removal will be sword #2. This is a very bad idea.

Zacchary.6183:

Reikou.7068:

Remove Meld in Shadows (Stealth Skills last 1s longer,) and Shadow’s Rejuvenation (Recover health in Stealth,) nerf Shadow’s Embrace (Remove 1 condi/3 seconds while in stealth) And I think SA will be fine.

Using stealth is fine, but a player shouldn’t be rewarded for stalling in stealth forever, which is what Shadow’s Rejuv does.

Then the only form of condition removal will be sword #2. This is a very bad idea.

Shadowstep
Hide in Shadows
Withdraw
Roll for Initiative
Signet of Agility

just from skills.

Zacchary.6183:

Conncept.7638:

Neko.9021:

Shadow’s Rejuvenation is indeed quite strong: wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow’s_Rejuvenation

However, such a Thief that spams stealth:
-Does not really help in speedclearing dungeons in PvE
-Does not contribute much in a Zerg fight in WvW
-Does not capture or contest points well in PvP

So they really don’t do very much that impacts the game in any meaningful way. They just run around and harass people in hotjoins or in WvW “roaming”. I’m pretty sure that’s why this trait isn’t really considered a problem.

They kill stuff and they never die. That is useful no matter the game mode.

They are also susceptible to dying. Nobody wants to actually TRY though.

Why try to kill something that is guaranteed to use a zero-counter escape skill as soon as its clear they are going to lose the fight?

Why try to kill something that is guaranteed to use a zero-counter escape skill as soon as its clear they are going to lose the fight?

Why try to kill guardians when they’re guaranteed to heal right back to full as soon as it is clear they are going to lose the fight?
Why try to kill necromancer when they’re guaranteed to switch to another life bar as soon as it is clear they are going to lose the fight?
Why try to kill engineers when they’re guaranteed to invul/block/stealth/rocket boots away as soon as it is clear they are going to lose the fight?

Because not everyone shares your defeatist mentality, and stealth is not guaranteed.

Shinjo.6092:

Why try to kill something that is guaranteed to use a zero-counter escape skill as soon as its clear they are going to lose the fight?

Why try to kill guardians when they’re guaranteed to heal right back to full as soon as it is clear they are going to lose the fight?
Why try to kill necromancer when they’re guaranteed to switch to another life bar as soon as it is clear they are going to lose the fight?
Why try to kill engineers when they’re guaranteed to invul/block/stealth/rocket boots away as soon as it is clear they are going to lose the fight?

Because not everyone shares your defeatist mentality, and stealth is not guaranteed.

Because healing and death shroud delay damage in a fashion that have their own appropriate drawbacks and can be countered and played against, they do not break off combat with naught but a single possible response shared in kind with every other ability in the game. As for the engineer, even the developers have admitted their defensive ability is ridiculous and imbalanced, so yes it is a problem.

Clearly stating problems so they be addressed is not defeatism. Ignoring and excusing problems because there are others which may also need to be addressed, is.

Conncept.7638:

Shinjo.6092:

Why try to kill something that is guaranteed to use a zero-counter escape skill as soon as its clear they are going to lose the fight?

Why try to kill guardians when they’re guaranteed to heal right back to full as soon as it is clear they are going to lose the fight?
Why try to kill necromancer when they’re guaranteed to switch to another life bar as soon as it is clear they are going to lose the fight?
Why try to kill engineers when they’re guaranteed to invul/block/stealth/rocket boots away as soon as it is clear they are going to lose the fight?

Because not everyone shares your defeatist mentality, and stealth is not guaranteed.

Because healing and death shroud delay damage in a fashion that have their own appropriate drawbacks and can be countered and played against, they do not break off combat with naught but a single possible response shared in kind with every other ability in the game. As for the engineer, even the developers have admitted their defensive ability is ridiculous and imbalanced, so yes it is a problem.

Clearly stating problems so they be addressed is not defeatism. Ignoring and excusing problems because there are others which may also need to be addressed, is.

How is that any different from a thief using stealth to delay damage? As for breaking combat, it’s not stealth that did that. It’s because a thief was able to fool you of his location and ran far enough for combat to drop. Any class can do that, with or without stealth.

As for a counter, imagine a trap that can knock you out of death shroud and prevent you from going back in for 30 seconds. Or imagine a 2000 ranged unblockable shout that locks you out of an entire trait line and prevents you from using your main attack as well all your heals. Sounds ridiculous? That’s basically what thieves have to deal with.

Reikou.7068:

Zacchary.6183:

Reikou.7068:

Remove Meld in Shadows (Stealth Skills last 1s longer,) and Shadow’s Rejuvenation (Recover health in Stealth,) nerf Shadow’s Embrace (Remove 1 condi/3 seconds while in stealth) And I think SA will be fine.

Using stealth is fine, but a player shouldn’t be rewarded for stalling in stealth forever, which is what Shadow’s Rejuv does.

Then the only form of condition removal will be sword #2. This is a very bad idea.

Shadowstep (Sure but not everyone wants to run this)
Hide in Shadows (Doesn’t cure torment, immobilize, confusion, chilled, cripple, fear, vulnerability, weakness or blind)
Withdraw (doesn’t cure Torment, bleeding, confusion, burning, fear, vulnerability, weakness or blind)
Roll for Initiative (see Withdraw)
Signet of Agility (1 condition per 30 (24 traited) seconds that cuts crit rate by ~7% doesn’t cut it. Almost every other profession has either a signet passive or a trait that removes 1 per 10 seconds or one per cast of a specific utility type. Thieves do not.)

just from skills.

Try using all those leet skills and see if you can keep up with the condition spam without Shadow’s Embrace and s/x.

NinjaEd.3946:

Op, if you want SA nerfed, give us something in return. You realize how dependent some builds are for SA right? Only reason thief CAN run full glass cannon, is because of SA. Not that its recommended, I find little to no trouble with glass thieves except in numbers but really, you can’t call imbalance when you are out numbered…

Give stealth thieves a reason not to stay in stealth for 10+ seconds and reset fights, and then we’ll talk. Oh btw, we have to be in stealth for that regen, and its still less than warrior’s Healing signet. Even if they nerfed it the 8% or w/e, and that’s a grandmaster trait in the healing trait line. 300+ hp/s looks like a lot because we have the lowest health pool tier, so its no wonder why it looks like we take a few seconds to get back to full but it ain’t hard to take us down to low. Just sayin, they don’t call it glass cannon for nothing.

Uh… no?
SA’s only half decent when you invest heavily into it. A true GC build won’t be heavily invested in it. I run what I suspect to be GC at 25/30/0/0/15, and have no problems being as squishy as I am. A SA build running rejuv/etc. will also have fairly decent armor ratings.

As per the usual, I’m going to summarize the complaints by stating the following:

D/P is the problem due to its inherent access to high stealth uptime, blind spamming, dagger mainhand’s no real incentive to run high power traits, etc. With food and buffs, yes, a 10/30/x/x/x thief CAN hit a 10k stab (on a light armor target). I was personally hitting 12k’s with my previous build without food which had only 20 points invested in Deadly Arts.

The problem isn’t simply nerfing dagger mainhand’s damage output, either. The power trees, as I have also mentioned in the past, also just need to be more rewarding across all classes for damage. Strictly speaking, even with ferocity nerfs/changes incoming, there’s little reason to play power without crit damage/crit chance, and the modest bonuses the trait lines provide, especially when examining the thief’s grandmaster skills, is simply not worth speccing into because that 50 power and garbage effect can be offset with food and be better spent elsewhere for more utility/survivability or even damage in other lines.

Zacchary.6183:

Try using all those leet skills and see if you can keep up with the condition spam without Shadow’s Embrace and s/x.

You can’t, and neither can any other class except maybe warrior.

Now, if you want to keep up with condi spam, and rely on something other than skills, you can try Lyssa runes, which synergizes incredibly well with Basilisk Venom. Congrats now you can clear all condis whenever you want.

Reikou.7068:

Zacchary.6183:

Try using all those leet skills and see if you can keep up with the condition spam without Shadow’s Embrace and s/x.

You can’t, and neither can any other class except maybe warrior.

Now, if you want to keep up with condi spam, and rely on something other than skills, you can try Lyssa runes, which synergizes incredibly well with Basilisk Venom. Congrats now you can clear all condis whenever you want.

Oh yes. Rely on runes to fill in the condition removal hole. Most professions do not need to rely on runes to remove conditions because they at least have decent condition removal.

Just for the record though, if it weren’t for lyssa runes basilisk venom would never be used. Venoms are crap support compared to others and a complete waste of a slot

v Also that.

Reikou.7068:

Zacchary.6183:

Try using all those leet skills and see if you can keep up with the condition spam without Shadow’s Embrace and s/x.

You can’t, and neither can any other class except maybe warrior.

Now, if you want to keep up with condi spam, and rely on something other than skills, you can try Lyssa runes, which synergizes incredibly well with Basilisk Venom. Congrats now you can clear all condis whenever you want, within 45 second intervals.