Guild Wars 2

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Hey guys, I know it’s really hard to discuss OP builds on these forums. Most responses come in the form of “trying doing this” or “try doing that”. “You should play this” or “you should play that”. This topic is for the people that believe PU mesmers are OP and would like to think of ways to balance them. If you want to post on strategies for fighting a PU mesmer, please create another topic and post there. This is not the place to discuss strategies.

I’m surprised no one has brought this up yet. In WvW, these guys can take camps with defenders and still kill everyone while being virtually immortal. I can’t say what exactly is is so OP about them, but everyone I talk to, even mesmers themselves, agree PU mesmers are quite OP. I don’t really know this build well and why it’s so strong, but I at least would like to know what other players think on this topic.

I do know what they are doing. I’ve read tips on how to deal with them, but they generally don’t really work. I don’t even know how to balance this properly, just wanted to start the discussion.

PU Mesmers are good for WvW roaming and nothing else. They have zero chasing ability and their burst (ie. Illusionary Counter and confusion) depends on you attacking them. Just ignore them. I don’t see much point in balancing around a troll build that’s essentially useless in every aspect of the game other than roaming.

What if he’s taking a camp? Do you just let him? Then he will not be chasing you, he actually wants you to leave.

And not all PU mesmers are based on you attacking them. PU mesmers are the ones that use prismatic understanding. There are many ways to deal damage and I’ve met many variations out there.

Please don’t come and post here to just avoid them. This is an issue that must be talked about and I would apreciate if those types of comments were not placed here.

If you are talking about stealth & such I’d remond you thieves are much more annoying & deadly ..

Jackums.3496:

PU Mesmers are good for WvW roaming and nothing else. They have zero chasing ability and their burst (ie. Illusionary Counter and confusion) depends on you attacking them. Just ignore them. I don’t see much point in balancing around a troll build that’s essentially useless in every aspect of the game other than roaming.

The fact that they have 0 chasing ability is wrong.
Most PU use Traveler rune (which is extremely good for them, as both the boon duration and conditions duration are really nice). Plus they have blink, an immob from sword or another blink from staff.

They are actually quite good at chasing. They are not like thieves or warriors or gs rangers, but they definitely don’t lack out of combat mobility.

hihey.1075:

Jackums.3496:

PU Mesmers are good for WvW roaming and nothing else. They have zero chasing ability and their burst (ie. Illusionary Counter and confusion) depends on you attacking them. Just ignore them. I don’t see much point in balancing around a troll build that’s essentially useless in every aspect of the game other than roaming.

The fact that they have 0 chasing ability is wrong.
Most PU use Traveler rune (which is extremely good for them, as both the boon duration and conditions duration are really nice). Plus they have blink, an immob from sword or another blink from staff.

They are actually quite good at chasing. They are not like thieves or warriors or gs rangers, but they definitely don’t lack out of combat mobility.

That blink from staff you are referring to actually blinks you away from your target – defensive blink

Sasajoe.1509:

hihey.1075:

Jackums.3496:

PU Mesmers are good for WvW roaming and nothing else. They have zero chasing ability and their burst (ie. Illusionary Counter and confusion) depends on you attacking them. Just ignore them. I don’t see much point in balancing around a troll build that’s essentially useless in every aspect of the game other than roaming.

The fact that they have 0 chasing ability is wrong.
Most PU use Traveler rune (which is extremely good for them, as both the boon duration and conditions duration are really nice). Plus they have blink, an immob from sword or another blink from staff.

They are actually quite good at chasing. They are not like thieves or warriors or gs rangers, but they definitely don’t lack out of combat mobility.

That blink from staff you are referring to actually blinks you away from your target – defensive blink

Phase Retreating forward is insanely easy,
There are even multiple ways to do it.

Sasajoe.1509:

If you are talking about stealth & such I’d remond you thieves are much more annoying & deadly ..

Stealth is a tricky thing, but it’s not the main issue.

When the thief stealths, he is not attacking you. When the mesmer stealths, his phantasms and clones are still attacking and damaging you and those hurt a lot.

When both a thief or a mesmer stealth, I can deal damage to them with aoe effects, but because of Prismatic Understanding, the mesmer is gaining protection, aegis or regeneration every second. My damage is either blocked, healed over or significantly negated. It’s nearly impossible to take their life down unless you greatly outnumber the mesmer. I’ve seen PU mesmers fight 1v5 and win or reach a stalemate when the oposing players would have good survivability.

Now try dueling an average thief or an average PU mesmer. I can fight and beat even good thieves. But I talk to the most skilled players I know and they have zero chance against a PU mesmer unless they are running one themselves. I know WvW is not balanced on 1v1s, but PU mesmers can take greater numbers quite well and also chase if you run.

Sasajoe.1509:

hihey.1075:

Jackums.3496:

PU Mesmers are good for WvW roaming and nothing else. They have zero chasing ability and their burst (ie. Illusionary Counter and confusion) depends on you attacking them. Just ignore them. I don’t see much point in balancing around a troll build that’s essentially useless in every aspect of the game other than roaming.

The fact that they have 0 chasing ability is wrong.
Most PU use Traveler rune (which is extremely good for them, as both the boon duration and conditions duration are really nice). Plus they have blink, an immob from sword or another blink from staff.

They are actually quite good at chasing. They are not like thieves or warriors or gs rangers, but they definitely don’t lack out of combat mobility.

That blink from staff you are referring to actually blinks you away from your target – defensive blink

turn 180 degrees and use it. It’s a very reliable 1200 range gap closer. The only class that has a chance of escaping a PU mesmer is a thief or warrior.

Victoitor.2917:

Sasajoe.1509:

If you are talking about stealth & such I’d remond you thieves are much more annoying & deadly ..

Stealth is a tricky thing, but it’s not the main issue.

When the thief stealths, he is not attacking you. When the mesmer stealths, his phantasms and clones are still attacking and damaging you and those hurt a lot.

When both a thief or a mesmer stealth, I can deal damage to them with aoe effects, but because of Prismatic Understanding, the mesmer is gaining protection, aegis or regeneration every second. My damage is either blocked, healed over or significantly negated. It’s nearly impossible to take their life down unless you greatly outnumber the mesmer. I’ve seen PU mesmers fight 1v5 and win or reach a stalemate when the oposing players would have good survivability.

Now try dueling an average thief or an average PU mesmer. I can fight and beat even good thieves. But I talk to the most skilled players I know and they have zero chance against a PU mesmer unless they are running one themselves. I know WvW is not balanced on 1v1s, but PU mesmers can take greater numbers quite well and also chase if you run.

I don’t know haven’t seen a mesmer video but here’s a thief’s one

1v5 winning
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHOpACoX4ic

& pls dont tell me they are not op, cuz even a blind man can see they are.

I wonder if i get in the same situation 1v5 with my ranger whats gonna happen ..i think all we get to the point

About 7-8 months ago, the community blamed the ranger BM build for being too high-reward, low-risk, and passive. Well now we have discovered something that exceeds what the ranger could do.

PU is about kiting your opponent and letting your illusions do damage. 18s of stealth combined with boons, blinks, and illusions provide huge damage mitigation. Fighting a PU is a lost cause because if you can tank their damage, then you cannot DPS enough to kill them.

(the only reason PU mesmers are so popular is because necros are not common roamers. If necros were more common they would be forced to take more condition removal to survive their condition bursts)

Not every Necromancer roams in cheesy 30/20/0/0/20 builds with burst spec.From what I’ve heard and seen, PU mesmers are able to survive most of condition necromancer burst unless you just kittenload them with everything you’ve got and.pray it’s enough. The fact that they stealth so often negates any real tactic vs. them, because in order to put decent condition pressure you have to stack up conditions, what takes time.
On the other hand, if you plan to go more power way, they have insane mobility, vigor, protection, regen and aegis uptime. So even if you catch them off stealth, they’re able to survive quite easily

The necro burst spec would be the perfect counter to PU. I ve roamed with some good necros and believe me, those mesmers didn’t stand a chance. You just need one immobilize, then they pop Spite Signet and go cheesy mesmer.
However, the lack of survivability of necros makes them really rare in wow, thus the PU mesmer (and engi) meta.

Victoitor.2917:

What if he’s taking a camp? Do you just let him? Then he will not be chasing you, he actually wants you to leave.

If you have a whole camp of veterans with you, then you should have no trouble killing them in the first place. Even PU builds won’t be able to down you and the NPCs simultaneously.

Victoitor.2917:

And not all PU mesmers are based on you attacking them. PU mesmers are the ones that use prismatic understanding. There are many ways to deal damage and I’ve met many variations out there.

If they’re not running the condi build with torch, then they’re hardly impossible to kill. I run a zerker PU build for WvW roaming and it’s not even nearly as survivable as the full condi specs that take staff and scepter/torch. They don’t need a nerf.

Victoitor.2917:

Please don’t come and post here to just avoid them. This is an issue that must be talked about and I would apreciate if those types of comments were not placed here.

You would appreciate if I didn’t give my opinion because it’s not the same as yours?

Condi PU Mesmers are the ones that are so difficult to take down, not all PU Mesmers, which is why I disagree with the idea of nerfing the trait. Some builds, such as zerker builds, that run PU are still very glassy. They don’t deserve to be hit just because of a single build that’s useless everywhere but WvW roaming.

Sasajoe.1509:

Victoitor.2917:

Sasajoe.1509:

If you are talking about stealth & such I’d remond you thieves are much more annoying & deadly ..

Stealth is a tricky thing, but it’s not the main issue.

When the thief stealths, he is not attacking you. When the mesmer stealths, his phantasms and clones are still attacking and damaging you and those hurt a lot.

When both a thief or a mesmer stealth, I can deal damage to them with aoe effects, but because of Prismatic Understanding, the mesmer is gaining protection, aegis or regeneration every second. My damage is either blocked, healed over or significantly negated. It’s nearly impossible to take their life down unless you greatly outnumber the mesmer. I’ve seen PU mesmers fight 1v5 and win or reach a stalemate when the oposing players would have good survivability.

Now try dueling an average thief or an average PU mesmer. I can fight and beat even good thieves. But I talk to the most skilled players I know and they have zero chance against a PU mesmer unless they are running one themselves. I know WvW is not balanced on 1v1s, but PU mesmers can take greater numbers quite well and also chase if you run.

I don’t know haven’t seen a mesmer video but here’s a thief’s one

1v5 winning
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHOpACoX4ic

& pls dont tell me they are not op, cuz even a blind man can see they are.

I wonder if i get in the same situation 1v5 with my ranger whats gonna happen ..i think all we get to the point

I could show you a video of every class doing the same.

Should I start the list?

hihey.1075:

(the only reason PU mesmers are so popular is because necros are not common roamers. If necros were more common they would be forced to take more condition removal to survive their condition bursts)

Sorry but this doesn’t work. I am engy full condy burst. Tried Grenades/Bombs, Bombs/Toolk Kit, Grenades/Tool Kit. I open up with 5 conditions including very high damage burning, bleeding, confusion, blindness and torment. I still have no chance against them.

Jackums.3496:

You would appreciate if I didn’t give my opinion because it’s not the same as yours?

It’s the way you said it. “They can’t chase. So run. Problem solved!” is a very trollish way of trying to throw the other person’s topic away. Specially when you use false arguments. Can we please try not to derail this thread?

Jackums.3496:

If you have a whole camp of veterans with you, then you should have no trouble killing them in the first place. Even PU builds won’t be able to down you and the NPCs simultaneously.

One at a time? Usually starting with the player defending since they can somehow burst a 3k toughness 20k health player like it was nothing. I have no clue how they do this, but I’ve seen this being done and they were running scepter/torch and something/pistol (probably sword).

Jackums.3496:

If they’re not running the condi build with torch, then they’re hardly impossible to kill. I run a zerker PU build for WvW roaming and it’s not even nearly as survivable as the full condi specs that take staff and scepter/torch. They don’t need a nerf.

You should see other variations out there. And don’t you think that build is OP?

Jackums.3496:

Condi PU Mesmers are the ones that are so difficult to take down, not all PU Mesmers, which is why I disagree with the idea of nerfing the trait. Some builds, such as zerker builds, that run PU are still very glassy. They don’t deserve to be hit just because of a single build that’s useless everywhere but WvW roaming.

So what do you think should be done to balance them?

Sasajoe.1509:

Victoitor.2917:

Sasajoe.1509:

If you are talking about stealth & such I’d remond you thieves are much more annoying & deadly ..

Stealth is a tricky thing, but it’s not the main issue.

When the thief stealths, he is not attacking you. When the mesmer stealths, his phantasms and clones are still attacking and damaging you and those hurt a lot.

When both a thief or a mesmer stealth, I can deal damage to them with aoe effects, but because of Prismatic Understanding, the mesmer is gaining protection, aegis or regeneration every second. My damage is either blocked, healed over or significantly negated. It’s nearly impossible to take their life down unless you greatly outnumber the mesmer. I’ve seen PU mesmers fight 1v5 and win or reach a stalemate when the oposing players would have good survivability.

Now try dueling an average thief or an average PU mesmer. I can fight and beat even good thieves. But I talk to the most skilled players I know and they have zero chance against a PU mesmer unless they are running one themselves. I know WvW is not balanced on 1v1s, but PU mesmers can take greater numbers quite well and also chase if you run.

I don’t know haven’t seen a mesmer video but here’s a thief’s one

1v5 winning
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHOpACoX4ic

& pls dont tell me they are not op, cuz even a blind man can see they are.

I wonder if i get in the same situation 1v5 with my ranger whats gonna happen ..i think all we get to the point

I know stealth can be very tough to fight against. I had to study a lot of what thieves were doing to be able to survive or kill them. It is indeed strong. But I believe PU mesmers are on a whole different level. I’ve seen so many guides on tips and tricks on how to defeat them. Much more than I had to learn to fight thieves. Even people giving tricks were saying that your chance would increase slightly, the mesmer would still need to mess up big time for you to win. I tried everything I learned and still didn’t have a chance. I understand what you say and stealth does have it’s problems. But the PU mesmer is on a whole different scale, so I would prefer to not go into thieves.

Another thing, that’s Yishis on that video. He is insane. Finding players that are extremely good and can accomplish amazing feats can be done in any class. But when every player running a certain build can acomplish amazing feats, then something is unbalanced on that specific build. That’s the case for PU mesmers.

Victoitor.2917:

hihey.1075:

(the only reason PU mesmers are so popular is because necros are not common roamers. If necros were more common they would be forced to take more condition removal to survive their condition bursts)

Sorry but this doesn’t work. I am engy full condy burst. Tried Grenades/Bombs, Bombs/Toolk Kit, Grenades/Tool Kit. I open up with 5 conditions including very high damage burning, bleeding, confusion, blindness and torment. I still have no chance against them.

Necro condi burst >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Engi condi burst.
They’re not even comparable. Confusion does not work against them as they can simply stop doing anything and let their clones/phantasms kill you.

Hey guys, I know it’s really hard to discuss OP builds on these forums. Most responses come in the form of “trying doing this” or “try doing that”. “You should play this” or “you should play that”. This topic is for the people that believe PU mesmers are OP and would like to think of ways to balance them. If you want to post on strategies for fighting a PU mesmer, please create another topic and post there. This is not the place to discuss strategies.

Victoitor.2917:

Hey guys, I know it’s really hard to discuss OP builds on these forums. Most responses come in the form of “trying doing this” or “try doing that”. “You should play this” or “you should play that”. This topic is for the people that believe PU mesmers are OP and would like to think of ways to balance them. If you want to post on strategies for fighting a PU mesmer, please create another topic and post there. This is not the place to discuss strategies.

Victoitor.2917:

I’m surprised no one has brought this up yet. In WvW, these guys can take camps with defenders and still kill everyone while being virtually immortal. I can’t say what exactly is is so OP about them, but everyone I talk to, even mesmers themselves, agree PU mesmers are quite OP. I don’t really know this build well and why it’s so strong, but I at least would like to know what other players think on this topic.

I do know what they are doing. I’ve read tips on how to deal with them, but they generally don’t really work. I don’t even know how to balance this properly, just wanted to start the discussion.

We should all make threads with very little knowledge and move to promote discussion based on secondhand knowledge from people we talk to. At least research PU first. How can you have a serious balance discussion on the topic but you don’t even know the material yourself?

Hey guys I heard bowbear rangers are OP discuss!
I don’t have a Engineer and I didn’t take the time to research this OP build but I heard its OP discuss! I mean seriously discuss! I will even have counter arguments based on my lack of knowledge.

Everyone with knowledge is telling you it isn’t OP the only people that call it OP are the ones foolish enough to fight them with out a build that can handle the Mesmer. Dueling in the Sanctum doesn’t make them OP which is probably where your second hand knowledge came from dueling. You can ignore them out in the open world and most of them pick fights stacked in their favor. They are looking for other duelist because that build is designed to counter duelists.

I roll up with my terrormancer and then they don’t want to duel. I’m OP until a balance stance warrior with hammer comes along or a diamond skin ele.

P/D perp thieves are far more dangerous then PU mesmers you can ignore. PU is designed for Dueling and very small scale roaming. If I run full clerics armor on my Ele and don’t die to a PU but can’t kill him either who is OP?

It’s certainly a challenge to balance the condi PU mesmer so as to not change the effectiveness of other mesmer builds.

I think the best way to balance the generic PU build is to separate the condi duration of illusions from the player. This would have the effect of minimizing reliance on illusions for DPS as well as promoting offensive play. Because illusions are damage mitigation, they should not be out DPS’ing the mesmer. More specifically the mesmer should work for his kill just like any other class must do.

oZii.2864:

Victoitor.2917:

Hey guys, I know it’s really hard to discuss OP builds on these forums. Most responses come in the form of “trying doing this” or “try doing that”. “You should play this” or “you should play that”. This topic is for the people that believe PU mesmers are OP and would like to think of ways to balance them. If you want to post on strategies for fighting a PU mesmer, please create another topic and post there. This is not the place to discuss strategies.

Victoitor.2917:

I’m surprised no one has brought this up yet. In WvW, these guys can take camps with defenders and still kill everyone while being virtually immortal. I can’t say what exactly is is so OP about them, but everyone I talk to, even mesmers themselves, agree PU mesmers are quite OP. I don’t really know this build well and why it’s so strong, but I at least would like to know what other players think on this topic.

I do know what they are doing. I’ve read tips on how to deal with them, but they generally don’t really work. I don’t even know how to balance this properly, just wanted to start the discussion.

We should all make threads with very little knowledge and move to promote discussion based on secondhand knowledge from people we talk to. At least research PU first. How can you have a serious balance discussion on the topic but you don’t even know the material yourself?

Hey guys I heard bowbear rangers are OP discuss!
I don’t have a Engineer and I didn’t take the time to research this OP build but I heard its OP discuss! I mean seriously discuss! I will even have counter arguments based on my lack of knowledge.

Everyone with knowledge is telling you it isn’t OP the only people that call it OP are the ones foolish enough to fight them with out a build that can handle the Mesmer. Dueling in the Sanctum doesn’t make them OP which is probably where your second hand knowledge came from dueling. You can ignore them out in the open world and most of them pick fights stacked in their favor. They are looking for other duelist because that build is designed to counter duelists.

I roll up with my terrormancer and then they don’t want to duel. I’m OP until a balance stance warrior with hammer comes along or a diamond skin ele.

P/D perp thieves are far more dangerous then PU mesmers you can ignore. PU is designed for Dueling and very small scale roaming. If I run full clerics armor on my Ele and don’t die to a PU but can’t kill him either who is OP?

I do know a lot about the PU mesmer and I know many reasons for why it’s quite strong. I’m sorry but I did not express myself well. I meant to say that I do not know exactly how to balance it without affecting other mesmer builds. What I really don’t know is how to balance those builds without breaking other balanced ones. I know there are many mesmers that think the build is OP themselves and I thought they would be the best ones to come up with solutions.

I could easily come up with multiple solutions to balance PU mesmers.

Solution 1: The Prismatic Understanding trait gives one boon total when leaving stealth instead of one per second.

Solution 2: Illusions do not attack when a mesmer is invisible.

Solution 3: Decrease the boon durations given by PU.

Solution 4: Remove the 1 second extra stealth from PU.

Coming up with solutions are easy. I did not want to do that as I think mesmers should be the best ones to identify how to nerf the really OP builds without breaking them or other builds (which I know nothing about). Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Victoitor.2917:

oZii.2864:

Victoitor.2917:

Hey guys, I know it’s really hard to discuss OP builds on these forums. Most responses come in the form of “trying doing this” or “try doing that”. “You should play this” or “you should play that”. This topic is for the people that believe PU mesmers are OP and would like to think of ways to balance them. If you want to post on strategies for fighting a PU mesmer, please create another topic and post there. This is not the place to discuss strategies.

Victoitor.2917:

I’m surprised no one has brought this up yet. In WvW, these guys can take camps with defenders and still kill everyone while being virtually immortal. I can’t say what exactly is is so OP about them, but everyone I talk to, even mesmers themselves, agree PU mesmers are quite OP. I don’t really know this build well and why it’s so strong, but I at least would like to know what other players think on this topic.

I do know what they are doing. I’ve read tips on how to deal with them, but they generally don’t really work. I don’t even know how to balance this properly, just wanted to start the discussion.

We should all make threads with very little knowledge and move to promote discussion based on secondhand knowledge from people we talk to. At least research PU first. How can you have a serious balance discussion on the topic but you don’t even know the material yourself?

Hey guys I heard bowbear rangers are OP discuss!
I don’t have a Engineer and I didn’t take the time to research this OP build but I heard its OP discuss! I mean seriously discuss! I will even have counter arguments based on my lack of knowledge.

Everyone with knowledge is telling you it isn’t OP the only people that call it OP are the ones foolish enough to fight them with out a build that can handle the Mesmer. Dueling in the Sanctum doesn’t make them OP which is probably where your second hand knowledge came from dueling. You can ignore them out in the open world and most of them pick fights stacked in their favor. They are looking for other duelist because that build is designed to counter duelists.

I roll up with my terrormancer and then they don’t want to duel. I’m OP until a balance stance warrior with hammer comes along or a diamond skin ele.

P/D perp thieves are far more dangerous then PU mesmers you can ignore. PU is designed for Dueling and very small scale roaming. If I run full clerics armor on my Ele and don’t die to a PU but can’t kill him either who is OP?

I do know a lot about the PU mesmer and I know many reasons for why it’s quite strong. I’m sorry but I did not express myself well. I meant to say that I do not know exactly how to balance it without affecting other mesmer builds. What I really don’t know is how to balance those builds without breaking other balanced ones. I know there are many mesmers that think the build is OP themselves and I thought they would be the best ones to come up with solutions.

I could easily come up with multiple solutions to balance PU mesmers.

Solution 1: The Prismatic Understanding trait gives one boon total when leaving stealth instead of one per second.

Solution 2: Illusions do not attack when a mesmer is invisible.

Solution 3: Decrease the boon durations given by PU.

Solution 4: Remove the 1 second extra stealth from PU.

Coming up with solutions are easy. I did not want to do that as I think mesmers should be the best ones to identify how to nerf the really OP builds without breaking them or other builds (which I know nothing about). Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Balancing by destroying a whole trait would be bad because non-condi PU mesmers exists. The only way to balance it would be to lower condi duration of illusions.

gawker.8340:

It’s certainly a challenge to balance the condi PU mesmer so as to not change the effectiveness of other mesmer builds.

YES!! That is my main concern.

gawker.8340:

I think the best way to balance the generic PU build is to separate the condi duration of illusions from the player. This would have the effect of minimizing reliance on illusions for DPS as well as promoting offensive play. Because illusions are damage mitigation, they should not be out DPS’ing the mesmer. More specifically the mesmer should work for his kill just like any other class must do.

I actually think the main offender is PU itself. I’ve seen many variations using power or hybrid that would not suffer even if the conditions were nerfed. Mesmers having high damage is fine. Just not so high with nearly godlike survivability.

Maybe the buffs are too high. Remove the extra stealth duration or reduce the boon durations or both.

Do you run a mesmer yourself?

gawker.8340:

Balancing by destroying a whole trait would be bad because non-condi PU mesmers exists. The only way to balance it would be to lower condi duration of illusions.

Some of those solutions were not serious. I was making a point that making bad solutions are easy. On my other reply to your message I was more thought out on the solution. It’s a grandmaster trait so it should be something strong. Wouldn’t you think toning it down slightly would still keep it’s strength without it being too powerful? Is the problem really only with PU conditions? I actually think it’s with the trait itself.

Victoitor.2917:

gawker.8340:

It’s certainly a challenge to balance the condi PU mesmer so as to not change the effectiveness of other mesmer builds.

YES!! That is my main concern.

gawker.8340:

I think the best way to balance the generic PU build is to separate the condi duration of illusions from the player. This would have the effect of minimizing reliance on illusions for DPS as well as promoting offensive play. Because illusions are damage mitigation, they should not be out DPS’ing the mesmer. More specifically the mesmer should work for his kill just like any other class must do.

I actually think the main offender is PU itself. I’ve seen many variations using power or hybrid that would not suffer even if the conditions were nerfed. Mesmers having high damage is fine. Just not so high with nearly godlike survivability.

Maybe the buffs are too high. Remove the extra stealth duration or reduce the boon durations or both.

Do you run a mesmer yourself?

I believe the unbalance component is the following:
1. Debilitating Dissipation
2. Vengeful Images
3. Phantasmal Healing

1. this skill should work on a 0% condition duration of the illusion(all illusions should have 0% condi duration).
2. this skill should work on a 0% boon duration of illusion.
3. this skill should work on a 0% boon duration, as well as ICD

So you see the unbalance is because these traits fall in lines that give +duration to boon and conditions which have compounding benefit when mesmer summons 3 illusions to apply boons and conditions.

I dueled Doiid (a mesmer from Red Guard) a couple days ago at the windmill. He was using a PU hybrid. He had nearly 500 condi damage, and since he had many zerker pieces his vitality/toughness were not so high. The fights were fun and short and while it indeed felt powerful, his build was BALANCED. There were weaknesses which could be used to kill him (as I did after a couple fights).

My suggestion regarding this matter is this one though:
Make it so that the boons you get while in stealth will proc only if you haven’t already one of those. This way you couldnt stack “perma” Protection or Regeneration.
A lot of other traits already use this format (such as Shadow Protector, one of the Thief’s Shadow Arts traits), so it shouldn’t be hard to implement.

gawker.8340:

Victoitor.2917:

gawker.8340:

It’s certainly a challenge to balance the condi PU mesmer so as to not change the effectiveness of other mesmer builds.

YES!! That is my main concern.

gawker.8340:

I think the best way to balance the generic PU build is to separate the condi duration of illusions from the player. This would have the effect of minimizing reliance on illusions for DPS as well as promoting offensive play. Because illusions are damage mitigation, they should not be out DPS’ing the mesmer. More specifically the mesmer should work for his kill just like any other class must do.

I actually think the main offender is PU itself. I’ve seen many variations using power or hybrid that would not suffer even if the conditions were nerfed. Mesmers having high damage is fine. Just not so high with nearly godlike survivability.

Maybe the buffs are too high. Remove the extra stealth duration or reduce the boon durations or both.

Do you run a mesmer yourself?

I believe the unbalance component is the following:
1. Debilitating Dissipation
2. Vengeful Images
3. Phantasmal Healing

1. this skill should work on a 0% condition duration of the illusion(all illusions should have 0% condi duration).
2. this skill should work on a 0% boon duration of illusion.
3. this skill should work on a 0% boon duration, as well as ICD

So you see the unbalance is because these traits fall in lines that give +duration to boon and conditions which have compounding benefit when mesmer summons 3 illusions to apply boons and conditions.

Those indeed seem to be strong. But before every roaming mesmer started playing PU, there were other builds out there that would use those same skills and they were not too strong. Why would you think they are the problem and not PU?

Victoitor.2917:

This topic is for the people that believe PU mesmers are OP and would like to think of ways to balance them.

So you just want the opinion from only one side of the thing?

Let’s start in a different spot, what is the thing you find to strong on a PU-Mesmer? Are you talking about specifically the Blackwater build or are you referring directly to the PU-trait?

The trait grants you – every second you remain in stealth with one of your own cloaking skills – randomly ether 3 seconds of Aegis, Protection or Regeneration. And increase the stealth duration by one second.
If you stay for the whole duration in stealth, you’ll can leave the stealth with up to 10 seconds of protection, but there is also the same amount of chance, that you’ll only end up with one aegis. Do you think the protection up-time is too long?

Blackwater is running with torch, decoy, veil, mass invisibility and eventually with Desperate Decoy. Do you think the amount of stealth is too much?

The Blackwater build is using the trait ‘Debillitating Dissipation’ in combination with ‘Deceptive Evasion’ and ‘Sharper Images’. Do you think the amount of bleeding is too much?

SoulSin.5682:

Sasajoe.1509:

Victoitor.2917:

Sasajoe.1509:

If you are talking about stealth & such I’d remond you thieves are much more annoying & deadly ..

Stealth is a tricky thing, but it’s not the main issue.

When the thief stealths, he is not attacking you. When the mesmer stealths, his phantasms and clones are still attacking and damaging you and those hurt a lot.

When both a thief or a mesmer stealth, I can deal damage to them with aoe effects, but because of Prismatic Understanding, the mesmer is gaining protection, aegis or regeneration every second. My damage is either blocked, healed over or significantly negated. It’s nearly impossible to take their life down unless you greatly outnumber the mesmer. I’ve seen PU mesmers fight 1v5 and win or reach a stalemate when the oposing players would have good survivability.

Now try dueling an average thief or an average PU mesmer. I can fight and beat even good thieves. But I talk to the most skilled players I know and they have zero chance against a PU mesmer unless they are running one themselves. I know WvW is not balanced on 1v1s, but PU mesmers can take greater numbers quite well and also chase if you run.

I don’t know haven’t seen a mesmer video but here’s a thief’s one

1v5 winning
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHOpACoX4ic

& pls dont tell me they are not op, cuz even a blind man can see they are.

I wonder if i get in the same situation 1v5 with my ranger whats gonna happen ..i think all we get to the point

I could show you a video of every class doing the same.

Should I start the list?

Yes please show me a ranger in the same/similar situation in recent patches (doing 1v5 – AT THE SAME TIME [alone] & winning).

You want to know what’s currently OP? It’s those ‘Boom&Zoom’ Warriors!

A PU Mesmer does not kill you; your own stupidity does. The key to winning is to stop acting like a zergling that’s mindlessly mashing buttons.

Aveneo.2068:

You want to know what’s currently OP? It’s those ‘Boom&Zoom’ Warriors!

A PU Mesmer does not kill you; your own stupidity does. The key to winning is to stop acting like a zergling that’s mindlessly mashing buttons.

Best post 2014.
Please refrain to post in this thread again. You clearly have no clue even what a PU mesmer is.
There IS a reason why PU is banned from renown sPvP dueling servers.

I have to admit i haven’t read all posts in this topic. PU was a good trait before it got buffed to triggering every second, so i would just suggest reverting to the previous state (triggering every 3s).

hihey.1075:

Aveneo.2068:

You want to know what’s currently OP? It’s those ‘Boom&Zoom’ Warriors!

A PU Mesmer does not kill you; your own stupidity does. The key to winning is to stop acting like a zergling that’s mindlessly mashing buttons.

Best post 2014.
Please refrain to post in this thread again. You clearly have no clue even what a PU mesmer is.
There IS a reason why PU is banned from renown sPvP dueling servers.

Care to explain? Did you just compliment me or insult me?

A PU build is referred to as a “punishment style” build. The more you attack the PU mesmer, the more difficult the fight will get. It revolves around OnDeath effects of clones while the mesmer has a high stealth upkeep with potent boons while in stealth. However, you can just walk away as they have almost no means to pursue and catch a target that decides to disengage.

So your own stupidity will kill you if you randomly mash buttons like a zergling against a PU mesmer and try to stay in the fight. Then you’re playing right into their hands as they want to prolong the fight and they want you to kill their clones.

I think the reason nobody brought PU up so quickly is because its impact in WvW is almost completely irrelevant outside of organised 1v1s. There’s plenty of builds/traits across all classes you wouldn’t use in a serious organised 1v1. Just add PU to that list.

However, if Anet really needed to spend time balancing PU Mesmers, I would of course suggest addressing the trait alone and not touching anything else. I suppose you could swap the protection for swiftness. Allows PU Mesmers to keep the chance to proc Aegis and gain a free block in stealth but reduces the amount of protection gained along with Illusionary Membrane whilst giving Mesmers another source of swiftness (which is always a treat). I suppose it would be less cheesy for 1v1s although I still wouldn’t use it myself.

PU mesmers are an extremely limiting playstyle (by this I mean they limit their attackers abilities far too heavily). I’ve only had a lot of success with ranged attacks (single target or aoe) and a ranged channel on an extremely low CD for when they stealth. If you don’t have either of those and you are not a thief (most thieves I see fighting them still fail), you will have an insane amount of difficulty.

I agree that they bring little to the table, but the fact that there is a build out there where you are better off walking away makes for some horrible design.

Aveneo.2068:

You want to know what’s currently OP? It’s those ‘Boom&Zoom’ Warriors!

A PU Mesmer does not kill you; your own stupidity does. The key to winning is to stop acting like a zergling that’s mindlessly mashing buttons.

Calling others dumb is disingenuous and will not convince them that PU mesmers are balanced. From my numerous encounters with PU mesmers, I almost always die. They don’t kill you particularly by stacking confusion, they kill through overloading bleed + burn.

Jackums.3496:

PU Mesmers are good for WvW roaming and nothing else. They have zero chasing ability and their burst (ie. Illusionary Counter and confusion) depends on you attacking them. Just ignore them. I don’t see much point in balancing around a troll build that’s essentially useless in every aspect of the game other than roaming.

Erm, not all PU mesmers run that sort of build. I agree they suffer from mobility so running is quite easy. The biggest problem is things like iZerker, iDuelist and such.

A possible fix:

ANY damage done brings them out, that includes summoning any illusions that deal ANY damage

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Jackums.3496:

PU Mesmers are good for WvW roaming and nothing else. They have zero chasing ability and their burst (ie. Illusionary Counter and confusion) depends on you attacking them. Just ignore them. I don’t see much point in balancing around a troll build that’s essentially useless in every aspect of the game other than roaming.

Erm, not all PU mesmers run that sort of build. I agree they suffer from mobility so running is quite easy. The biggest problem is things like iZerker, iDuelist and such.

A possible fix:

ANY damage done brings them out, that includes summoning any illusions that deal ANY damage

That’s a big nerf to them because illusions constantly do 0-5 dmg to random crap.

Well, it would practically render any mesmer stealth useless and reduce it to a simple target drop.

gawker.8340:

That’s a big nerf to them because illusions constantly do 0-5 dmg to random crap.

Yeah that is the only issue. Maybe make it so its affected by ONLY phantasms?

Balance condi warriors too.

immobilize and poison destorys pu mesmer and If you dont have em its ur problem beacose all classes have immobilize and you can get poison from sigils

gawker.8340:

Aveneo.2068:

You want to know what’s currently OP? It’s those ‘Boom&Zoom’ Warriors!

A PU Mesmer does not kill you; your own stupidity does. The key to winning is to stop acting like a zergling that’s mindlessly mashing buttons.

Calling others dumb is disingenuous and will not convince them that PU mesmers are balanced. From my numerous encounters with PU mesmers, I almost always die. They don’t kill you particularly by stacking confusion, they kill through overloading bleed + burn.

I didn’t call anyone dumb though. But maybe I should have stated the old ‘L2P’ mantra that thieves are usually preaching when defending their class. Regardless, the PU build may seem potent, but they usually have very very poor means to give chase.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

gawker.8340:

That’s a big nerf to them because illusions constantly do 0-5 dmg to random crap.

Yeah that is the only issue. Maybe make it so its affected by ONLY phantasms?

Then thieves should also be forced out of stealth when someone gets damage from traps, caltrops, thieves guild etc.

Forcing mesmers out of stealth just because a phantasm attacks would make all their stealth useless imo as Mesmers would then get the Revealed debuff constantly and randomly.

Besides, phamtasms are not the issue as they can be killed very easily and do not benefit from any OnDeath traits.

Effectively your suggestion would just be another sledgehammer nerf to mesmers. Already we’ve seen numerous nerf to phantasms (LoS required, no summon on Block/Dodge/Invulnerability and reduced overall health). So no need to make mesmers completely useless by making stealth unreliable as well.

Just my opinion though.

Aveneo.2068:

Then thieves should also be forced out of stealth when someone gets damage from traps, caltrops, thieves guild etc.

and rightly so. ANY damage caused by ANY skills used should remove the player from stealth.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Aveneo.2068:

Then thieves should also be forced out of stealth when someone gets damage from traps, caltrops, thieves guild etc.

and rightly so. ANY damage caused by ANY skills used should remove the player from stealth.

I can live with that (because I’m fed up with the stealth mechanic in general and wished ANet had never implemented it in the first place)

Yeah PU mesmers are not easy to handle. The kitten confusion stacks and invisibility they can perform so often

mrauls.6519:

Yeah PU mesmers are not easy to handle. The kitten confusion stacks and invisibility they can perform so often

Again, not every PU running mesmer runs conditions or Confusion builds…