[WvW] ES still feels like its overperforming
First of all 10 seconds isn’t really spamming, secondly you can always dodge the earthshaker it’s way too easy to dodge.
4.5k seems exceedingly high. Maybe with full might and vuln stacks which isn’t something the Warrior is doing.
I agree 4.5k is way too high, you must have broken armor pieces.
The biggest problem is the following:
This game has no diminishing returns on hard crowd control. You can get chain stunned and knocked down etc. many times in a row. Especially all the medium armor professions have very limited access to stability. This is what makes the hammer melee trains so incredibly powerful. Yes, they are overpowered and have been the WvWvW meta since Autumn 2012. And easy way to make this more balanced would be give a all the players a short amount of time, let’s say 1 second, when her character is immune to hard CC skills (stun, knockback, launch, pull, daze, fear). I know 1 second immunity between stuns is not much, but at least it would give some escape window to dodge away from harm’s way. This suggested change would have minimal effect on small scale and 1 vs 1 situations.
Another thing: This game has some skills, which are doing too many things at same time, without having a very long cooldown. A well-designed skill should do just one powerful thing or two mediocre things, never two powerful things, unless it is has a very long cooldown. Area skills doing multiple powerful things with very low cooldown are even more broken than single target skills. If you look at Earth shaker using this fair skill balancing method, you see it is utterly broken:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Earthshaker
2 second, 240 radius AoE stun
1.25 damage multiplier (decent damage)
600 leap
combo finisher blast
Now already the 2 second area stun is extremely powerful on itself, especially on so low cooldown skill. The skill should NOT offer any additional effects: No leap, no combo finisher, no damage to keep it in line with all the stun skills with low cooldown.
Alternative way to balance the skill is to reduce the radius of the stun area to 120 s and stun duration to 1 second with full adrenaline, but I am sure most warrior’s would prefer the first method of balancing. I am also for reducing the duration or effectiveness of stun skills across all professions (this skills should be balanced with very long cooldowns). Static field has also been the essential part of the WvWvW meta since launch. I know it is used to swiftness stacking using the lightning field, but giving it also 1200 ranged AoE stun which is unblockable is problematic and gives yet another easy way to continuously stun the opponents. The unblockable effect should be removed from it.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Static_Field_
Deniara / Ayna – I want the original WvWvW maps back – Desolation [EU]
True, lack of diminishing returns can be problematic. I wonder whether it’d be smart to implement one, and if yes which type, as I disliked both DAoC’s and WoW’s models.
What if we recycled existent mechanics, however? Coming out of a CC effect gives you Stability with the duration (non-modifyable) as long as the CC? So you get dazed for 2s → 2s stability.
But hrm… that’d change the game massively. But then, so would any form of DR.
The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.
I dont like the idea of passive DR. There’s already plenty of counters to cc: dodge, evade, block, blind, aegis, stability, stun break.
The problem could be fixed by adding more stun breakers and stability to the game. E.g. thieves dont have access to stability outside of Daggerstorm. Engineers also lack stun breaks and stability on the most useful (kit based) builds.
We really don’t need more player-controlled Stability, IMO. We got way too much of that. Hence the idea of a passive one. That way the first CC still works.
The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.
The only thing I’d agree with is that the AOE is a little too large and the stun and aftercast a little too long.
downed state is bad for PVP
(edited by scerevisiae.1972)
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Merciless_Hammer
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http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Burst_Mastery
=
4.5k + dmg every 7.5
[care] Coarr Ix – Ranger
Kodash
Stomp some Piken!
Kodash
Stomp some Piken!
First of all 10 seconds isn’t really spamming,
I’d argue that it is.
secondly you can always dodge the earthshaker it’s way too easy to dodge.
That’s not necessarily true, either.
Increase burst cd to 15sec. Job done.
Team Deathmatch for PvP – Raise the AoE cap for WvW – More unique events for PvE
Increase burst cd to 15sec. Job done.
I disagree. Show me another AoE stun skill, which does all these on a 15 s cooldown:
2 second, 240 radius AoE stun
1.25 damage multiplier (decent damage)
600 leap
combo finisher blast
For comparison in WvWvW zerg fights Earth Shaker does roughly the same as Supply Crate, engi elite, which has 180 s cooldown. The turrets have huge hit boxes and very low health, so they are destroyed by AoE in a second.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Supply_Crate
Now if the engineers could spam supply crate in zerg fights every 7.5 seconds, oh that cry… (of course it would be broken).
Deniara / Ayna – I want the original WvWvW maps back – Desolation [EU]
Skirr
37 WvW kills, R2 PvP and no legendary
37 WvW kills, R2 PvP and no legendary
I think the issue might be solved if Earthshaker affected the Warrior. Both the stun and the damage parts. It’d make it a purely supportive move.
The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.
And while playing on my engi, necro, or mesmer, which stability do i have on a 7.5 secs CD to counter traited earthshaker ? Do you think we all run around with pocket stability granting guards in tow ? Want me to start spamming stability cooldowns from wiki for any class other then War, Guard and maybe earth traited ele for you ?
O and when I do play my guard, it’d be nice to trait something kittening different then AOE stability spam which I basically have no choice but to run cause of the kittening earthshaker.
ES is affecting whole game in a negative way cause everyone that runs against or faces meta HAS to build to counter it. There are no their abilities / skills in the entire game that come anywhere close to affecting such a large portion of playerbase in such a negative way.
On top of all that, there is a lot of screaming to nerf necros, the only current team hard counter for hammer train, once that happens, what then ? Are we all just going to roll ES warriors and spam that crap at each other ? Is this where the game is heading ?
Heavy Deedz – COSA – SF
(edited by Tongku.5326)
And while playing on my engi, necro, or mesmer, which stability do i have on a 7.5 secs CD to counter traited earthshaker ? Do you think we all run around with pocket stability granting guards in tow ? Want me to start spamming stability cooldowns from wiki for any class other then War, Guard and maybe earth traited ele for you ?
O and when I do play my guard, it’d be nice to trait something kittening different then AOE stability spam which I basically have no choice but to run cause of the kittening earthshaker.
ES is affecting whole game in a negative way cause everyone that runs against or faces meta HAS to build to counter it. There are no their abilities / skills in the entire game that come anywhere close to affecting such a large portion of playerbase in such a negative way.
But eng has perma vigor to help compensate for that general lack of stabilit… awww kitten >:(
Tarnished Coast
Salvage 4 Profit + MF Guide – http://tinyurl.com/l8ff6pa
Salvage 4 Profit + MF Guide – http://tinyurl.com/l8ff6pa
And while playing on my engi, necro, or mesmer, which stability do i have on a 7.5 secs CD to counter traited earthshaker ? Do you think we all run around with pocket stability granting guards in tow ? Want me to start spamming stability cooldowns from wiki for any class other then War, Guard and maybe earth traited ele for you ?
O and when I do play my guard, it’d be nice to trait something kittening different then AOE stability spam which I basically have no choice but to run cause of the kittening earthshaker.
ES is affecting whole game in a negative way cause everyone that runs against or faces meta HAS to build to counter it. There are no their abilities / skills in the entire game that come anywhere close to affecting such a large portion of playerbase in such a negative way.
On top of all that, there is a lot of screaming to nerf necros, the only current team hard counter for hammer train, once that happens, what then ? Are we all just going to roll ES warriors and spam that crap at each other ? Is this where the game is heading ?
I’m sure you have enough endurance to dodge every 10 seconds, Earthshakers is probably one of the most telegraphed skills in the game.
Are we talking 1v1 to zerg v zerg?
People were talking like there is no counter to cc, there is. I’m not saying earthshaker isn’t broken but then so are other skills and areas of the game. Anet look like they are trying to work on the mellee trains with ferocity debuff. We will have to wait and see.
Skirr
37 WvW kills, R2 PvP and no legendary
37 WvW kills, R2 PvP and no legendary
True, lack of diminishing returns can be problematic. I wonder whether it’d be smart to implement one, and if yes which type, as I disliked both DAoC’s and WoW’s models.
What if we recycled existent mechanics, however? Coming out of a CC effect gives you Stability with the duration (non-modifyable) as long as the CC? So you get dazed for 2s -> 2s stability.
But hrm… that’d change the game massively. But then, so would any form of DR.
I don’t like the Stability idea because of interrupts. Successfully interrupting a specific skill requires a great amount of attention (or luck) and is important for counterplay. If every randomly applied CC triggered Stability interrupts would become impossible.
With immunity timers like in DAoC or diminishing returns like in WoW people could not spam their CC any longer. No more being chain stunned by Warrior trains. Yet, a solo Warrior would not be totally crippled by that change. Sounds reasonable to me.
However, the question would be how those timers or diminishing returns would be implemented. I feel that there should be seperate timers for groups of effects like Pull, Knockdown/back and Stun/Daze. The sad thing is that some classes will suffer more from this than others. E.g. Engineers and Warriors got a huge variety of such skills and would gain an advantage when seperate timers were introduced. Mesmers on the other hand are very dependend on Dazes. So are Thieves.
What if stability never prevented interrupts in the first place? It prevents the CC, but only by reducing it to length 0,0s. As in: It still interrupts the currently used skill. That could solve it on both sides, give a little bit of Stability to counteract chain-CC, yet at the same time don’t prevent interrupts as a game mechanic, only the CC they come with.
The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.
And while playing on my engi, necro, or mesmer, which stability do i have on a 7.5 secs CD to counter traited earthshaker ? Do you think we all run around with pocket stability granting guards in tow ? Want me to start spamming stability cooldowns from wiki for any class other then War, Guard and maybe earth traited ele for you ?
O and when I do play my guard, it’d be nice to trait something kittening different then AOE stability spam which I basically have no choice but to run cause of the kittening earthshaker.
ES is affecting whole game in a negative way cause everyone that runs against or faces meta HAS to build to counter it. There are no their abilities / skills in the entire game that come anywhere close to affecting such a large portion of playerbase in such a negative way.
On top of all that, there is a lot of screaming to nerf necros, the only current team hard counter for hammer train, once that happens, what then ? Are we all just going to roll ES warriors and spam that crap at each other ? Is this where the game is heading ?
I’m sure you have enough endurance to dodge every 10 seconds, Earthshakers is probably one of the most telegraphed skills in the game.
Are we talking 1v1 to zerg v zerg?
People were talking like there is no counter to cc, there is. I’m not saying earthshaker isn’t broken but then so are other skills and areas of the game. Anet look like they are trying to work on the mellee trains with ferocity debuff. We will have to wait and see.
Dodge in this game is a crutch for poor game balance. Instead of actually balancing skills it just gets tossed under the “but you can dodge it so it’s fine” argument. Dodge should be a tool to help win fights but not a catch all balance excuse. All skills should be balanced around the fact that they are going to land every time they are used. This is especially true in WvW considering that in many fights you need to dodge other things on top of the OP skills that are fine because you can dodge them…
Ferocity has zero to do with combating melee trains directly. It is purely about getting critical damage changed into a stat point instead of a %. The only reason there is a nerf really is because current gear has too much crit damage due to them only being able to add a whole percent. So once the change hits all that extra rounded crit damage goes away that’s where the nerf is. It’s not a direct assault on berserker or melee, it does impact them but it also impacts all gear with crit damage.
Or separate Stability into 2 boons; one anti CC and the other anti forced movement. Then you can hand either out as needed without as much risk of making players immune to everything at once.
What if stability never prevented interrupts in the first place? It prevents the CC, but only by reducing it to length 0,0s. As in: It still interrupts the currently used skill. That could solve it on both sides, give a little bit of Stability to counteract chain-CC, yet at the same time don’t prevent interrupts as a game mechanic, only the CC they come with.
While this would solve interrupt issues it might destroy Stability. Why bother with Stability if you get interrupted anyway? Some skills require Stability to protect long channels from being interrupted within a fight.
I don’t think stability is really an argument here. Its a counter to one of the many things that this skill can do, which also has its own counter (boon stripping) and has reasonable limitations unlike ES.
4.5k seems exceedingly high. Maybe with full might and vuln stacks which isn’t something the Warrior is doing.
I get 4.5k ES against squishy targets all the time. I can get 4.5k against tougher builds with full bloodlust and a some might stacks and consumables. With unsuspecting foe I can combo back breaker and ES for 10k followed by two 4k autoattacks. I don’t run your standard PVT build though. The hammer is still quite strong but it is still not OP, it never was until Anet started messing with staggering blow and animations. At least now you have to sacrifice survivability to get that amount of power.
The problem is not the Hammer skill, it’s the game design that makes hard CC so effective in WvW. It’s the food, guard leech, and power creep from Ascended gear (it’s not as insignificant as you think). It’s CCs stacking in duration and soon to be changes to Sigil cooldowns. All these things add up and change things into an OP Meta. Necros get OP conditions, thieves get OP single target burst, Eles get pretty OP AoE damage, Mesmers get OP annoyance and with some crazy powerful builds. Warriors and guardians get OP CC.
Be careful what you wish for, Anet might just give it to you “HoT”
“…let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we shall die;.”
“…let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we shall die;.”