Guild Wars 2

Bunda.2691:

BlackDevil.9268:

@ Bunda
No, that would only promote brainless clone spamming builds. No skill involved in that either just with the old confusion builds.
What we need is the interrupt traits working together with daze/stun skills, such as the mantra of distraction and chaos storm. I still don’t really get why they just fixed the CS-chaos storm bug instead of rethinking the skill/trait and at least make chaos storm so it does daze more often as base. 4/5 dazes of chaos storm would improve the weapon so much. Atm it’s like 1/5 lol. The radius is pretty small, huge CD and the rest of the skills of staff are all really defensive, so I don’t see why chaos storm is so crap.

Then again we should need a blast finisher on greatsword #3, our pull of focus being 0.5 sec cd instead of 1 second and Iwarden having a total rework. It’s forced to be a phantasm though so maybe something like the old iwarden that + pulls people every X seconds during his cast.

Maybe off-hand sword #4 block active effect could also get a small buff with the radius around the bolt or having it’s velocity increased.

@blackdevil
I hear your response, but think about it for a sec. By putting such a trait in Inspiration Grandmaster, you’d be making it difficult to take all the other on-death traits and DE. What it would allow, however, is mesmers to take support traits and still put out a little front-line aoe damage. I agree that it’s a bit mindless, but what front line auto attack isn’t.

I like your thoughts on riposte or counter being aoe, but there is the skill lag problem with them in very large fights, in which auto attacks and dodges are prioritized. Hence my suggestion.

What about this for an Inspiration GM trait: clones on death do a small aoe damage and a small aoe heal? Yes, it would lead to tanky mesmers spamming dodges (which, I may add, were just slightly nerfed), but it will allow mesmers a greater role in front line combat, which by nature is inherently spammy.

Well the problem is you can’t control clones. Imo, mesmer shouldnt be a frontliner but a backliner just as elementalist and necromancer. Giving that information it would be hard to make clone death traits reliable for your team and mostly only result into single target damage/healing.

Though if it would be that mesmer would be a nice support that way, it would be rather boring and not much different from what we are doing atm, which isn’t really what mesmer needs.
Also clone death traits trigger when the enemy ’’hits’’ you, which you want to avoid. Plus, with clone death trait/damage, don’t have on-time spikes, but rather ones with a few seconds delay, which might be too late already.

Thats why memser atm is already forced to go in front of the frontline pretty much, because mesmers spike is slower than one of a warrior and needs to get out of the bomb before the enemy strikes back, which same goes for DPS warriors. (Though even dps warriors can sustain 2x of what mesmer can)

We just need some reliable way to deal damage, aoe CC or/and support the raid from range. Going in close range is not really what should be linked to a light armor class without a lot base HP and defensive skills.

Mesmer probably is the single strongest roaming/dueling class in this game. They don’t have a presence in PvP because it’s a condi game and Mesmers have some of the worst condi cleanse options in the game. It’s a shame too because Mesmer would probably single handedly move the game away from the Warrior meta we’re seeing right now.

That said, I do agree with the rest of the thread that in general WvW and larger scale engagements the class is lacking. Not nearly as lacking as say a Ranger is, but it does seem to only exist for veils and portal.

But why is this the case? I really don’t see the class needing anything in the damage department. Defensively the class is more than fine too. It’s all a utility issue and the problem is the Mesmer has so many amazingly strong utility skills but only 3 slots to fill, and when filling with utility you lose the defensive options that you need to survive.

This is where the focus of attention should be imo. With things like portal and veil, what if these things had a shorter cooldown in the 45-60 second range and were made weapon skills instead? In the grand scheme of things, the cooldown isn’t much of a difference as you’ll still only use these things once an engagement. The difference between 60 seconds and 90 seconds doesn’t mean much imo.

Offensively I don’t feel the class needs anything. A global change to pets and minions so they take less damage from random AE in WvW perhaps, but beyond that nothing. Defensively the class doesn’t need anything either because if you can actually slot defensive utility skills you do fine. The only issue is providing veil and portal while also keeping yourself alive.

Now I don’t play a Mesmer and can only speak of the general complaints over teamspeak and me being on the receiving end so if I’m entirely off base here, I appologize. But aren’t there any weapon options the class considers 100% useless in every situation that could do with getting a veil or portal in exchange for what’s already available?

Torch for example? It already has a stealth so giving it a veil doesn’t change gameplay all that much. What if the phantasmal mage dropped (and could be killed to allow for counter play) and once you drop a portal exit it explodes opening a wormhole between the 2 points for people to travel (as a fluffy explanation of it).

But again I could be off base here…

Atherakhia, a large problem is that WvW-wise we were designed to offer background pressure via our relatively easy and dangerous access to AE confusion.

Since that was nerfed, the main point we had in WvW evaporated. We are still taken for utility, but the non-utility role no longer exists, as Confusion no longer pressures anyone.

Carighan.6758:

Atherakhia, a large problem is that WvW-wise we were designed to offer background pressure via our relatively easy and dangerous access to AE confusion.

Since that was nerfed, the main point we had in WvW evaporated. We are still taken for utility, but the non-utility role no longer exists, as Confusion no longer pressures anyone.

If Mesmers did terrible damage they wouldn’t be so strong in the roaming/dueling department. If they couldn’t defend themselves, they wouldn’t be strong in the roaming and dueling department. All I’m saying is, as an outsider, the damage and defense don’t appear to be realistic problems with the class (though I do realize clones/phantasms dying before they hit the target you have selected is a problem with certain ones).

From the various discussions during a raid it just seems like the utility is never ready because Mesmers only slot portal and veil when specifically needed and often are caught in situations that they could use them but don’t have them equipped because they needed something else before they got jumped. I often hear mesmers lament that a null field would be perfect here, but I had to slot portal etc.

It appears; again, as an outsider, the class provides tons of stuff but they can’t fit it all in and still be viable on their own. This seems like the only area really worth exploring because the damage isn’t a problem and clone/phantasms being bunk in zergs is something ANet will need to overhaul for a lot of classes.

Atherakhia.4086:

But why is this the case? I really don’t see the class needing anything in the damage department. Defensively the class is more than fine too. It’s all a utility issue and the problem is the Mesmer has so many amazingly strong utility skills but only 3 slots to fill, and when filling with utility you lose the defensive options that you need to survive.

This is where the focus of attention should be imo. With things like portal and veil, what if these things had a shorter cooldown in the 45-60 second range and were made weapon skills instead? In the grand scheme of things, the cooldown isn’t much of a difference as you’ll still only use these things once an engagement. The difference between 60 seconds and 90 seconds doesn’t mean much imo.

Offensively I don’t feel the class needs anything. A global change to pets and minions so they take less damage from random AE in WvW perhaps, but beyond that nothing. Defensively the class doesn’t need anything either because if you can actually slot defensive utility skills you do fine. The only issue is providing veil and portal while also keeping yourself alive.

Now I don’t play a Mesmer and can only speak of the general complaints over teamspeak and me being on the receiving end so if I’m entirely off base here, I appologize. But aren’t there any weapon options the class considers 100% useless in every situation that could do with getting a veil or portal in exchange for what’s already available?

Torch for example? It already has a stealth so giving it a veil doesn’t change gameplay all that much. What if the phantasmal mage dropped (and could be killed to allow for counter play) and once you drop a portal exit it explodes opening a wormhole between the 2 points for people to travel (as a fluffy explanation of it).

But again I could be off base here…

i think u are missing the point. we dont wanna use portals and veils. its boring. its so frustrating to be a utilityslot for the zerg.
yes u havent played mesmer, so u dont know what numbers u get as a pure power mesmer in a zerg. i agree that single target hits are pretty strong and dont need a buff. but mesmer needs more aoe damaging skills.
i am lucky if i get to tag 5 enemies when using my stupid berserker. we have no aoe dmg whatsoever.
phantasms die in 2 hits or less, sometimes before they can even hit anything. my gs autoattack hits hard but only 1 target, mantras are useless and yes i know some people use them. i hate the way they work and their so called aoe range is a complete joke!

i hear mesmer say shatter mes works. no it doesnt. i run with a zergbusting guild and no it does not work at all. no clones to shatter ever, ip sorta works but still is useless when outnumbered. if u get hit by an organized guild. ther is cc,chills, condis, cc, even more cc and massive aoes all over the place. as a mesmer u have to stay on distance. u cant just go into shatter range.
we lack aoe and lots of it. since glam nerfs ther is no viable aoe left for us. it was all taken away with that one patch.

our weapons are more single target focused and our main dmg comes from phantasms. they all have pretty long cd’s compared to earthshaker for example. earthshaker deals aoe dmg is not depending on a target, no los issues, is a cc and deals great dmg even after the nerf.
a phantasm is ai and not a viable aoe. u can cc it u can block it , the los is way to strict and it is tough to hit more than 2 targets with it.plus almost all phantasms bug out sometimes where they dont spawn or dont attack or die before they even can attack.

other classes have stronger weapon skills lots of them dont require a target. other light armors have ground targeting skills, we dont really have that. everything is target based and our utilities barely make up for the dmg loss we get with our ai.
glam was different. it did put great dmg out and was a great aoe.

our utilities are
4 http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mantra
which soud nice, but they are very difficult to use and recharging one of them in a battle is almost impossible.
then we have manipulation skills http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Manipulation
only one of them i really use is blink, the rest is nothing that deals dmg again and lots of them are under used.

we got defensive phantasms, that are again ai and not good in a raid
and the glamours are not worth speccing into.

signet are again not really that good…in a 1v1 i use some of them sometimes and thats it.
our elites are support or the troll moa

so here we are with weaker weapon skills that need a target and phantasms that can barely deal dmg due to ai being not viable in zergs. so yeah we need aoe like hexes, so we can be a real light armor class and not a false meduim duelist.

Atherakhia.4086:

Carighan.6758:

Atherakhia, a large problem is that WvW-wise we were designed to offer background pressure via our relatively easy and dangerous access to AE confusion.

Since that was nerfed, the main point we had in WvW evaporated. We are still taken for utility, but the non-utility role no longer exists, as Confusion no longer pressures anyone.

If Mesmers did terrible damage they wouldn’t be so strong in the roaming/dueling department. If they couldn’t defend themselves, they wouldn’t be strong in the roaming and dueling department. All I’m saying is, as an outsider, the damage and defense don’t appear to be realistic problems with the class (though I do realize clones/phantasms dying before they hit the target you have selected is a problem with certain ones).

From the various discussions during a raid it just seems like the utility is never ready because Mesmers only slot portal and veil when specifically needed and often are caught in situations that they could use them but don’t have them equipped because they needed something else before they got jumped. I often hear mesmers lament that a null field would be perfect here, but I had to slot portal etc.

It appears; again, as an outsider, the class provides tons of stuff but they can’t fit it all in and still be viable on their own. This seems like the only area really worth exploring because the damage isn’t a problem and clone/phantasms being bunk in zergs is something ANet will need to overhaul for a lot of classes.

and there u are wrong again. our dmg and ai works in roaming as ther arent 15-20 aoes that destroy the ai. roaming ans spvp mes does well, same with rangers. they do well in small encounters, but both our classes are stripped down to nothing in a zerg due to ai. u cant compare a 1v1 with a 50v50. ther is littereally nothing that puts out pressure in a zerg from a a mesmer. nothing at all! gwen is the onlyone that can deal dmg and survive. im not even considered a caster. im handeled like a light armor, but i am not as i have no aoe. so what am i in the backline fore. my clones will never reach, my phantasms are either out or range,obstructed, bugged or get cc es right away and die before they can hit anything.
chaos storm is our only real aoe. its aoe omg omg its an aoe…..and thats it and it has a long cd and thats no pressure just being able to use 1 aoe every 35 seconds.

@Atherakhia.4086 look this is what mes used to be:

Then apparently I wasn’t wrong as I clearly said the phantasm issue in WvW will likely never be fixed without a complete overhaul for any class that has a pet or minion.

I’m also not sure the lack of AE is mistake. Rangers have the same problem. Necros as well (for power).

I’ve said my piece though, so best of luck.

Atherakhia.4086:

Then apparently I wasn’t wrong as I clearly said the phantasm issue in WvW will likely never be fixed without a complete overhaul for any class that has a pet or minion.

I’m also not sure the lack of AE is mistake. Rangers have the same problem. Necros as well (for power).

I’ve said my piece though, so best of luck.

agree ai is a problem, but necro is no problem. i play power necro and the aoe there is amazing, but necro does need more defensive traits/skills as necros have slow combat speed and can be focused easily. trying to run away as a necro is a pain.

Right, then. I agree with you, Atherakhia, RE: Pet AI. It’s been a sticking point of mine for months. The issue with AE is that: Mesmers used to possess it worth a darn, but it got shafted something fierce. From a Ranger perspective, it’d be like your damage Traps and Barrage eating a 50% damage decrease. This, of course, would be both:

1. Unnecessary, since any AE in game can be counterplayed.
2. Offensive as all get-out, and would persist in torqueing you off even months after
   the fact.

The screwball part, is that -and I’ve said this one for freaking months- if ANet wanted to “downscale” glamour builds in large-scale combat- all they honestly needed to
do would be to make Confusing Enchantments use the “standard” GW2 AE limit of 5 persons/player AE attack. But, what do Mesmer players know, anyway … they’re just the ones using the abilities that got nuked and screwed over. /shrug

(On an unrelated note, that name’s familiar as heck. EX-FCer, right? Where’d ya end up heading off to?)

I’m still on FC, but none named Atherakhia anymore. That was an alt on my brother’s account before I got my own, but I haven’t used him for well over a year. I now go by Atheris on most of my chars. Perhaps you ran across the name in another game as it was my Warlock in WoW, Confessor in SB, Necro in EQ etc. In teamspeak as well I believe, don’t know if I changed that to Nvs yet.

That explains it, then. Been looking for the wrong name

Actually, this is what mesmer used to be before the confusion nerf:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYqfuWsjkTQ

And this is what mesmer used to be before the sword nerf:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmJ1QZ_aPqc&list=PL8ED62A3D9F4A3742&index=6

In both cases you can see mesmer doing usefull stuff. In both cases we could be running with ’’dps’’ specced gears. Now we got DIRE gears, it will be most likely that they wont bring back the confusion glamour builds. If they would remove the Blinding Befuddlement cooldown you would get mesmers in full dire spamming chaos armor and just running with the melee train to apply massive amount of confusion stacks by pretty much doing nothing.

That’s not really how mesmer should be. I always thought mesmer should be a backline class, while we more and more aim towards frontline.

In the 2nd video you can see I was running with +/- 1400 toughness. My dps spikes were pretty high, survivability was good and the pull was still pretty good to use (without cd it’s so much more effective… 1sec is just ruining the skill.)

Now I’m almost forced to run with 1700 toughness to do the same because of all the nerfs we got, feedback is rather useless now with so few projectiles and the pull is also kitten.

Chaos storm with CS bug was actually a step towards something we should be. Too bad they put priority on ’’fixing’’ bugs that buffs us on aspects where we should be buffed, rather than looking for other options to make them viable…

Adding a blast finisher on GS #3 would be a nice start. Maybe increase its cooldown a little (2 more seconds maybe), but I think they need it.

hihey.1075:

Adding a blast finisher on GS #3 would be a nice start. Maybe increase its cooldown a little (2 more seconds maybe), but I think they need it.

that sounds like a pretty decent idea, mesmers are in desperate need of an on demand blast fin

heck id even accept another on demand leap, all we have is phase retreat, if they made illusionary leap fire the clone whether youd targeted or not that would be perfect

BlackDevil.9268:

Actually, this is what mesmer used to be before the confusion nerf:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYqfuWsjkTQ

And this is what mesmer used to be before the sword nerf:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmJ1QZ_aPqc&list=PL8ED62A3D9F4A3742&index=6

In both cases you can see mesmer doing usefull stuff. In both cases we could be running with ’’dps’’ specced gears. Now we got DIRE gears, it will be most likely that they wont bring back the confusion glamour builds. If they would remove the Blinding Befuddlement cooldown you would get mesmers in full dire spamming chaos armor and just running with the melee train to apply massive amount of confusion stacks by pretty much doing nothing.

That’s not really how mesmer should be. I always thought mesmer should be a backline class, while we more and more aim towards frontline.

In the 2nd video you can see I was running with +/- 1400 toughness. My dps spikes were pretty high, survivability was good and the pull was still pretty good to use (without cd it’s so much more effective… 1sec is just ruining the skill.)

Now I’m almost forced to run with 1700 toughness to do the same because of all the nerfs we got, feedback is rather useless now with so few projectiles and the pull is also kitten.

Chaos storm with CS bug was actually a step towards something we should be. Too bad they put priority on ’’fixing’’ bugs that buffs us on aspects where we should be buffed, rather than looking for other options to make them viable…

agree with you very much. yes glamour was too strong, but didnt need such a massive nerf. but what we need is aoe that works like this. mesmers aoe should be punishing. atm its hard to stop a melee train as there is nothing hiolding them back. they can just spam earthshaker and cc and 111 while tanking everything and the only thing stopping them is another melee train.
if glamour was still there and still strong, melee trains would have to slow down and think before spamming as glamours really only hurt u when u spamm your attacks. plus condi cleanse has become much stronger.
but then again i think we simply need a complete overhaul. imo mantras and mimic could be removed and replaced or changed so they work more like hexes or so. glamour traits could be updated so they do something new instead of confusion.etc mes should not be a duelist only. its a light armor that needs to have the option to do non ai aoe. too many of our traits have become useless or underpowered. so we need lots of changes so we can move forward and not feel stuck as a roamer/spvp duelist

seriously getting tired of veil. please anet throw the wvw mesmer a bone.

I’m fine with giving mesmers better group support, but it needs to come at the expense of nerfing their 1v1 abilities.

style.6173:

I’m fine with giving mesmers better group support, but it needs to come at the expense of nerfing their 1v1 abilities.

Sounds good. I propose removing Moa Morph. As it’s frequently whined about but in the end already entirely useless, that quells whining while also not really affecting us.

Carighan.6758:

style.6173:

I’m fine with giving mesmers better group support, but it needs to come at the expense of nerfing their 1v1 abilities.

Sounds good. I propose removing Moa Morph. As it’s frequently whined about but in the end already entirely useless, that quells whining while also not really affecting us.

I don’t think this counts. :P

I’d like to see buffs to manipulation and signet related traits. For example a notrng(!) boons when using manipulations.

Blink <+ Swiftness
Mimic <+ Stability
Arcane Thievery <+ Fury
Illusion of Life <+ Protection

style.6173:

I’m fine with giving mesmers better group support, but it needs to come at the expense of nerfing their 1v1 abilities.

Next patch, Masmer 1v1 capability will be nerfed with the proposed changes to Critical Infusion and Deceptive Evasion.

Xavi.6591:

style.6173:

I’m fine with giving mesmers better group support, but it needs to come at the expense of nerfing their 1v1 abilities.

Next patch, Masmer 1v1 capability will be nerfed with the proposed changes to Critical Infusion and Deceptive Evasion.

That will hurt raid too.
Another raid nerf, kitten yeah!

style.6173:

I’m fine with giving mesmers better group support, but it needs to come at the expense of nerfing their 1v1 abilities.

it doesn’t require nerfing if done right.. as in going for a group oriented spec would automaticly nerf the 1v1 power by just traits themselves

Vuh.1328:

style.6173:

I’m fine with giving mesmers better group support, but it needs to come at the expense of nerfing their 1v1 abilities.

it doesn’t require nerfing if done right.. as in going for a group oriented spec would automaticly nerf the 1v1 power by just traits themselves

But that would make mesmer having a good team build and superior in roaming.
Atm, like said probably at least 10 times in this thread, we are way too superior in roaming. You can almost faceroll any 1v1 and 1v3’s and pretty easy to do too. This only is caused by 1 trait, whereas we don’t really have much else to invest on because the rest is just getting nerfed.
The fact that people are using roaming builds in raids is already a sign there’s no teamplay build good enough to compete with the roaming build. Whereas roaming builds would be useless in raids, so are teambuilds too for mesmer.

If you wanna buff something, you gotta nerf the other. Warrior is a perfect example of where they didn’t do that, and let’s be honest, who isn’t qqing about warrior being a kittened class atm?

That’s not really what we want with mesmer, at least I don’t. Taking away some aspects of roaming for mesmer by slightly nerfing them, doens’t make us totally not viable in roaming. We wouldn’t probably be better than thieves, but hey, thieves are far from useful in raids nowadays.

Mesmer should be balanced on teamplay- and raoming gameplay Imo, and I’m sure also for arenanet seeing their first video’s about mesmer. Mesmer was supposed to be both: a supporter and illusionist plus a solo player. Atm we are only the solo part.

Classes should be successful at both roaming and in zergs – just not necessarily with the same spec. Mesmers are only ‘superior’ roaming because of the current PU condition build which is getting nerfed. And the only reason Mesmers bring roaming builds to raids is because the class doesn’t really have a decent raid build to begin with.

BlackDevil.9268:

Vuh.1328:

style.6173:

I’m fine with giving mesmers better group support, but it needs to come at the expense of nerfing their 1v1 abilities.

it doesn’t require nerfing if done right.. as in going for a group oriented spec would automaticly nerf the 1v1 power by just traits themselves

But that would make mesmer having a good team build and superior in roaming.
Atm, like said probably at least 10 times in this thread, we are way too superior in roaming. You can almost faceroll any 1v1 and 1v3’s and pretty easy to do too. This only is caused by 1 trait, whereas we don’t really have much else to invest on because the rest is just getting nerfed.
The fact that people are using roaming builds in raids is already a sign there’s no teamplay build good enough to compete with the roaming build. Whereas roaming builds would be useless in raids, so are teambuilds too for mesmer.

If you wanna buff something, you gotta nerf the other. Warrior is a perfect example of where they didn’t do that, and let’s be honest, who isn’t qqing about warrior being a kittened class atm?

That’s not really what we want with mesmer, at least I don’t. Taking away some aspects of roaming for mesmer by slightly nerfing them, doens’t make us totally not viable in roaming. We wouldn’t probably be better than thieves, but hey, thieves are far from useful in raids nowadays.

Mesmer should be balanced on teamplay- and raoming gameplay Imo, and I’m sure also for arenanet seeing their first video’s about mesmer. Mesmer was supposed to be both: a supporter and illusionist plus a solo player. Atm we are only the solo part.

This ^^. Best post in this thread