Guild Wars 2

dear arenanet balance team,

why is there an adept warrior trait that reduces cooldowns by 20% and makes shots pierce while the ranger hast 2 seperate master traits for cooldown reduction and piercing?

ranger:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Quick_Draw – Reduces recharge on short bow and longbow skills.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Piercing_Arrows – All arrow attacks pierce targets.

warrior: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Crack_Shot – Rifle and harpoon gun shots pierce. Reduced recharge on rifle and harpoon gun skills.

im not asking for a nerf to warriors. just delete quick draw and add the effect to piercing arrows and move it to adept. that way rangers will be able to use that new trait + eagles eye + read the wind.

thank you

A while back they merged many of the weapon cooldown reduction traits for half of the classes. That is, they made most of the cooldown traits give a secondary effect. Ranger, Necro, and to an extent elementalist (specific to one attunement cooldowns) didn’t get this treatment. It bewilders me as well that some classes get blatantly more powerful traits then others. Anet should at least keep the standard across all classes.

i totally agree on this.

sort of like how greater marks is on a separate major trait.

this is too long overdue.

Yes! more ranger revising.

It needs to be done, just so there’s more options for a ranger already, some of us don’t like putting full points in Marksmanship for 2 almost mandatory traits for a LB using Ranger.

You can argue that you need your CD reduction traits merged with similar traits, but please don’t compare them to other classes. Warrior and Ranger are very different in design so comparing their traits doesn’t make sense. If we were to compare traits across all classes and make all similar traits as strong as the best one, some classes would become crazy broken.

I don’t disagree that Ranger traits need help, but comparing them to other traits doesn’t “prove” anything. This is doubly true in this case because Rifle on Warrior is pathetic traited or not. It’s a weapon that has less AoE yet less damage than the LB on Warrior, a weapon that has been nerfed multiple times.

All of this makes me remember something..

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Deep_Cuts

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hemophilia

COOOOOOFFF COOOOFFFFF!!!!!!!!!! And Sword’s bleeds are way better than Scepter’s…

Halven the salary for the Warrior balance supervisor..

Ranger should get piercing arrows native. Their shots should pierce even untraited.

Jekkt.6045:

dhttp://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Quick_Draw – Reduces recharge on short bow and longbow skills.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Piercing_Arrows – All arrow attacks pierce targets.

warrior: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Crack_Shot – Rifle and harpoon gun shots pierce. Reduced recharge on rifle and harpoon gun skills.

The ranger traits apply to two weapons. Crack Shot, while technically applying to two, doesn’t really count for two since Harpoon Gun is underwater.

Also, Rifle on a Warrior is the second least used weapon, only rarer than an off-hand Axe. And Rifle also happens to be the only Warrior weapon that has no cleaving attacks nor aoe of any kind natively.

And personally, I don’t think that any weapon cooldown related traits should be Adept. That is far too small of an investment for a trait that is, quite often, the center piece of a build.

COOOOOOFFF COOOOFFFFF!!!!!!!!!! And Sword’s bleeds are way better than Scepter’s…

The justification for Deep Cuts lies in Flurry: Flurry applies multiple 2s bleeds. Anything short of 50% would have no effect on this due to how the ticks are timed. The shortest bleed on a Necro is 5s, meaning that 20% is the minimum required to get a benefit.

Olba.5376:

COOOOOOFFF COOOOFFFFF!!!!!!!!!! And Sword’s bleeds are way better than Scepter’s…

The justification for Deep Cuts lies in Flurry: Flurry applies multiple 2s bleeds. Anything short of 50% would have no effect on this due to how the ticks are timed.

It’s a poor justification, because if we assume that’s made just for Flurry, then we forget it affects all other bleeds: autoattack bleeds are yet long (8seconds untraited), offhand’s too (12 seconds untraited and 15 seconds of cooldown), Pin Down (from 12 seconds and 6300 damages on 25 seconds cooldown to 10000 damages over 18 seconds [and I calcualted without adding any other traits or stats])…
Warrior has a major uptime, duration and damage on bleeds. And even major traits.

Olba.5376:

The shortest bleed on a Necro is 5s, meaning that 20% is the minimum required to get a benefit.

Blood Curse 4 seconds untraited, Barbed Precision 2 seconds.

…

In conclusion, Warrior, over being the facerollest class ever, has the strongest weapons and traits superior to other classes.

Nice work ANET.

I’ve said enough.

Luke.4562:

Olba.5376:

COOOOOOFFF COOOOFFFFF!!!!!!!!!! And Sword’s bleeds are way better than Scepter’s…

The justification for Deep Cuts lies in Flurry: Flurry applies multiple 2s bleeds. Anything short of 50% would have no effect on this due to how the ticks are timed.

It’s a poor justification, because if we assume that’s made just for Flurry, then we forget it affects all other bleeds: autoattack bleeds are yet long (8seconds untraited), offhand’s too (12 seconds untraited and 15 seconds of cooldown), Pin Down (from 12 seconds and 6300 damages on 25 seconds cooldown to 10000 damages over 18 seconds [and I calcualted without adding any other traits or stats])…
Warrior has a major uptime, duration and damage on bleeds. And even major traits.

Olba.5376:

The shortest bleed on a Necro is 5s, meaning that 20% is the minimum required to get a benefit.

Blood Curse 4 seconds untraited, Barbed Precision 2 seconds.

I’ve said enough.

Warriors also only has access to 3 damaging conditions: Bleeds, Torment, and Burning. Let’s compare that to what Necro has: Everything. The most dangerous condi skills that Warrior has are also highly telegraphed, Impale and Pin Down. To go further, both of those skills are single target (although sometimes you get a lucky pierce from Pin Down) Necro has the ability to spread their condis all over. You’re comparing apples to oranges here.

BurrTheKing.8571:

Warriors also only has access to 3 damaging conditions: Bleeds, Torment, and Burning. Let’s compare that to what Necro has: Everything. The most dangerous condi skills that Warrior has are also highly telegraphed, Impale and Pin Down. To go further, both of those skills are single target (although sometimes you get a lucky pierce from Pin Down) Necro has the ability to spread their condis all over. You’re comparing apples to oranges here.

Imbalanced traits and too much damage are still the problems here, they have nothing to do with what you listed above.
You’re clearly denaturalizing my point making unappropriate comparisons, this is public information pollution.

Luke.4562:

BurrTheKing.8571:

Warriors also only has access to 3 damaging conditions: Bleeds, Torment, and Burning. Let’s compare that to what Necro has: Everything. The most dangerous condi skills that Warrior has are also highly telegraphed, Impale and Pin Down. To go further, both of those skills are single target (although sometimes you get a lucky pierce from Pin Down) Necro has the ability to spread their condis all over. You’re comparing apples to oranges here.

Imbalanced traits and too much damage are still the problems here, they have nothing to do with what you listed above.
You’re clearly denaturalizing my point making unappropriate comparisons, this is public information pollution.

How is it unrelated? You claim something to be superior to something else but only want to compare mechanics that prove your point while ignoring other mechanics that balance things out? Warrior condition builds are largely single target while Necros are more AoE. Therefore it makes sense that Warrior traits would be stronger in some ways. If Necros had 50% bleed duration it would be INSANE.

EDIT: What the heck do you mean by “denaturalizing?”

simple… its a warrior and anet love warrior they do so many things passively that every other class needs a utility for -.-

BurrTheKing.8571:

Olba.5376:

The shortest bleed on a Necro is 5s, meaning that 20% is the minimum required to get a benefit.

Blood Curse 4 seconds untraited, Barbed Precision 2 seconds.

I’ve said enough.

Warriors also only has access to 3 damaging conditions: Bleeds, Torment, and Burning. Let’s compare that to what Necro has: Everything. The most dangerous condi skills that Warrior has are also highly telegraphed, Impale and Pin Down. To go further, both of those skills are single target (although sometimes you get a lucky pierce from Pin Down) Necro has the ability to spread their condis all over. You’re comparing apples to oranges here. [/quote]

Not to be the negative nancy, but necro dont have perma burn like warriors, they dont have confusion (nor do warriors) and they got 2 stacks of torment less on a higher cooldown, for that they get poison… yay, in terms of sheer damaging condis, warrior has actually higher dps, same as engie, the nice thing tho is that necros can control those condis post application better.

Still no excuse for unequal statistical traits (across all professions, looking even at stuff like Stick and Move vs Elusive Power).

+1

EDIT: What the heck do you mean by “denaturalizing?”

Misleading, watering down the meaning of my argument by associating it to something which isn’t directly related to it.

I can make the same comparison as you did:
The fact Necro have more aoe condis doesn’t balance a thing, Arcing Arrow deals a ridicle amount of Aoe damage on a way larger area of effect and can be spammed on a short cooldown; keep in mind the LongBow also is used in berserker builds, with no need of condi damage because of their ridicle damage.

So what do we have? Ridicle single target damage and ridicle Aoe damage.
This justifies the fact that Warrior has still better traits than most classes. Sure.
Where’s the balance you were arguing for?
Don’t even try to come and say Burning isn’t Bleeding, blah blah blah.. Imbalanced damage is still imbalanced damage.

The more, i love how people use the verbalizations “comparing apples to oranges” to apparently giving more emphasis and meaning to their arguments…

Luke.4562:

+1

EDIT: What the heck do you mean by “denaturalizing?”

Misleading, watering down the meaning of my argument by associating it to something which isn’t directly related to it.

I can make the same comparison as you did:
The fact Necro have more aoe condis doesn’t balance a thing, Arcing Arrow deals a ridicle amount of Aoe damage on a way larger area of effect and can be spammed on a short cooldown; keep in mind the LongBow also is used in berserker builds, with no need of condi damage because of their ridicle damage.

So what do we have? Ridicle single target damage and ridicle Aoe damage.
This justifies the fact that Warrior has still better traits than most classes. Sure.
Where’s the balance you were arguing for?
Don’t even try to come and say Burning isn’t Bleeding, blah blah blah.. Imbalanced damage is still imbalanced damage.

The more, i love how people use the verbalizations “comparing apples to oranges” to apparently giving more emphasis and meaning to their arguments…

Did you miss the 15% Arcing Arrow dmg nerf ON TOP of the ferocity nerf? Burning on Warrior is only damaging if you somehow manage to not evade a single one of the Pulses (btw Combustive Shot was also nerfed several times), the duration isn’t that long unless you take runes/sigils for it. It sounds like you’re living it the game of several months ago.

The apples to oranges statement holds true because every clas is so different design wise that it makes zero sense to compare traits in a vacuum. You can’t just ignore the other mechanics the class has in place. You can’t say “X class has this and this and this” without also saying “it lacks that that and that.” As stated before, giving some of the traits that Warrior has to Necro would make them crazy imbalanced. I’m not sure if you’ve noticed but I for one see more Necros (Generally Power or Corruptomancer) and Engis (Bunker or Decap) these days than I do Warriors. Even when Warriors were at their peak popularity it was generally because they countered the condition meta at the time.

Your arguments are fundamentally flawed because you seem to think that you can just pick one part of what makes a class and disreguard anything else. Least I checked Necromances are still the superior condition class.

Also, I’m still not sold on your use of denaturalize, but that’s just semantics.

^Ferocity was for everyone.

BurrTheKing.8571:

Luke.4562:

+1

EDIT: What the heck do you mean by “denaturalizing?”

Misleading, watering down the meaning of my argument by associating it to something which isn’t directly related to it.

I can make the same comparison as you did:
The fact Necro have more aoe condis doesn’t balance a thing, Arcing Arrow deals a ridicle amount of Aoe damage on a way larger area of effect and can be spammed on a short cooldown; keep in mind the LongBow also is used in berserker builds, with no need of condi damage because of their ridicle damage.

So what do we have? Ridicle single target damage and ridicle Aoe damage.
This justifies the fact that Warrior has still better traits than most classes. Sure.
Where’s the balance you were arguing for?
Don’t even try to come and say Burning isn’t Bleeding, blah blah blah.. Imbalanced damage is still imbalanced damage.

The more, i love how people use the verbalizations “comparing apples to oranges” to apparently giving more emphasis and meaning to their arguments…

Did you miss the 15% Arcing Arrow dmg nerf ON TOP of the ferocity nerf? Burning on Warrior is only damaging if you somehow manage to not evade a single one of the Pulses (btw Combustive Shot was also nerfed several times), the duration isn’t that long unless you take runes/sigils for it. It sounds like you’re living it the game of several months ago.

The apples to oranges statement holds true because every clas is so different design wise that it makes zero sense to compare traits in a vacuum. You can’t just ignore the other mechanics the class has in place. You can’t say “X class has this and this and this” without also saying “it lacks that that and that.” As stated before, giving some of the traits that Warrior has to Necro would make them crazy imbalanced. I’m not sure if you’ve noticed but I for one see more Necros (Generally Power or Corruptomancer) and Engis (Bunker or Decap) these days than I do Warriors. Even when Warriors were at their peak popularity it was generally because they countered the condition meta at the time.

Your arguments are fundamentally flawed because you seem to think that you can just pick one part of what makes a class and disreguard anything else. Least I checked Necromances are still the superior condition class.

Also, I’m still not sold on your use of denaturalize, but that’s just semantics.

Yeah, 15% was a shave at best I can still crit for 5k with it and I’m not running full zerker.

Also despite the combustive shot “nerfs”, it can still have a 90% up time, cover the entire capture point and acts as a fire field which you know, can be used for multiple effects (3rd tier combustive shot, not hard to get however since adrenaline is incredibly easy to obtain).

If you want to compare the class as a whole, then your argument fails in countering the need to merge some ranger traits. Sure rifle isn’t all that good, but warrior is. Longbow(ranger) has a bunch of spread out traits, and ranger is most certainly not on the same level as warrior, not even same district.

See the issue or you going to continue thinking it’s all gravy after the “Balance” patch that barely touched warrior? I don’t even need healing power gear and I can still get 391 hps from healing signet, still no incentive to ever use the active. Warrior can be beat, but the risk:reward in playing one could not be any more wrong. Ranger can win in fights, but they suffer the exact opposite risk:reward that warrior has.

BurrTheKing.8571:

…Your arguments are fundamentally flawed because you seem to think that you can just pick one part of what makes a class and disreguard anything else…

Check what I’ve written, didn’t I checked all the other bleeds and conditions on the Warrior?
This is free shooting random sentences…

Deliberately declaring my argument is invalid, evasive dialectic, generalization and expanding the argument to dilute it just to hold on your point…

… Ok.

If this is your way of thinking even after I brought in proofs and matter of facts, I’m done discussing with you. Enjoy YOUR reality.

Luke.4562:

It’s a poor justification, because if we assume that’s made just for Flurry, then we forget it affects all other bleeds: autoattack bleeds are yet long (8seconds untraited), offhand’s too (12 seconds untraited and 15 seconds of cooldown), Pin Down (from 12 seconds and 6300 damages on 25 seconds cooldown to 10000 damages over 18 seconds [and I calcualted without adding any other traits or stats])…
Warrior has a major uptime, duration and damage on bleeds. And even major traits.

But the thing is, all of our bleeds have naturally high duration, which makes the extended duration kinda pointless. Long duration single bleeds reapplied is just another way to stack bleeds, with the other opposite being short bleeds in vast numbers.

And I don’t think that you’re being fair here. The bleeds that you mention basically result in a Sword+Sword/Longbow Warrior. That is one build out of 21. If you choose to go with something a little different, such as Sword/Shield or use a Hammer (both fairly popular choices), your bleeds are going to be insignificant.

The autoattack offers 2 stacks of bleeds per cycle, which means that getting to a high amount of stacks takes a very long time. That is the reason why pretty much all condi warriors run Sword/Sword and Longbow: Because Sword/Sword is the only way to get enough bleeds and Longbow is the only way to get enough condis onto the table to not be kittened by every single condi removal.

In case you have never been in the Warrior subforum, a fairly common request is changing the autoattacks to apply 2 stacks of 4s bleeds instead of 1 stack of 8s.

And by the way, making a trait that fully supports Flurry is not a bad design choice, considering that Flurry is a freaking Burst skill, aka a class mechanic of the Warrior.

Blood Curse 4 seconds untraited, Barbed Precision 2 seconds.

…

Wiki says Blood Curse is 5 seconds. Also, traits like Barbed Precision should never be built around other traits.

The fact Necro have more aoe condis doesn’t balance a thing, Arcing Arrow deals a ridicle amount of Aoe damage on a way larger area of effect and can be spammed on a short cooldown; keep in mind the LongBow also is used in berserker builds, with no need of condi damage because of their ridicle damage

There are very good reasons for running Longbow

• It’s the only weapon where Cleansing Ire is not neutralized by Blind.
• It’s a ranged weapon
• It’s a ranged weapon with AoE

Arcing Arrow deals big damage? Only if you’re running a power build. ANd if you’re running a power build, the condi damage on Longbow isn’t effective.

In conclusion, Warrior, over being the facerollest class ever, has the strongest weapons and traits superior to other classes.

Nice conclusion, man.

Olba.5376:

Wiki says Blood Curse is 5 seconds.

Actually its 4s, same for rending curse, tho they both used to be 7s on beta, which was deemed too strong, tho they do go up to 5 1/4base with lingering curses.

Extreme mirror climbers ftw.
The rational discussion becomes worthless with some people, it’s like talking different languages. I abandon this discussion.

love how this became a argument between necros and warroirs.

yes rangers do need a combo of Peircing arrows with with somthing maybe sharpened edges , not eagle eye because that would be too strong.

and don’t forget sharpend edges only effects the first target hit.

this would free up an adept trait, for ether cripple or somthing along those lines.
the spare adept trait in marksmanship would be a nice little boost that isn’t too strong as most of the adept traits are more minor in the terms of the damage ones have a draw back and the others have requirements to be met so i see that as a balance.

and some very sharp arrows would pierce through its targets and that makes sense,
but then the problem would be sharpened edges would now be a master trait leaving the base bleeds out and away from bunker/ condi builds that only have 2 points in marksman.

and i’d see it op if a short bow could use poison master and piercing(if it was in the adpet line) to stack up 4-5k poisons with only 50% condi druation piercing targets.

i’ve got no idea if it would work since poison isn’t a damage in stacks condi. but over time. so maybe it will be ok.

The problem for lb rangers is that the adept trait in marksman ship is usually useless. Sure 7s fury when you proc sharpening stone is okayish but if they either merge some traits or imo the best option would be to move either eagles eye or piercing arrows down to adept so that we can take eagles eye, piercing arrows and read the wind. Further moving down quick draw to adept aswell would make me take it over wilderness knowledge or whatever the survival cd reduction is called.

And no, longbow can definitely never become too strong. Its one of the worst weapons in game.

Not to forget that both Engineer and Guardian shield trait for added toughness and 20% cooldown reduction time are both master traits while warrior has the exact same but in adept..