Guild Wars 2

The groundhog day of balance is upon us. Karl has put off dealing with bunker ele for the last two seasons, probably because who knows what else to do with us. A dev post in the pvp forum hinted at a split PvE / PvP balance this patch, which would help, but I’m banking on them taking a sludge hammer to ele this round and giving us more scepter / offhand dagger boosts or something to “compensate”

If that happens, 6 more weeks of not playing ele

I fear that they touch it at the wrong point again pigeonholing us even more into water sustain enlargening the gap from meta to non meta more. … Boredom will strike even more if this happens …
Ele support build is not OP, its a good design. The problem is it´s the only realy good pvp option…. And the base question is does GW2 want a support role. If yes then of ourse support strengthens a team. This is what it´s made for.

Am a bit left of field here

I’m hoping a little they make camping more viable somehow…

If camping was made viable – many a build would come
4 elements + tempest
Tempest is as close to camping as you can get whilst still having to switch elements regularly imo

But hey, I enjoy playing non meta XD

I know how you feel, but the last HUGE update brought with it a bunch of buffs, after getting nerfs for 6 updates in a row before that, but yeah, somehow I feel like we are headed for another 2 mo of nerfs. Hope I’m wrong >____<\\

I’m curious what they’ll do. I imagine damage from air overload will get nurfed down a bit.

Not really sure what other big thing they’d nurf, I don’t think ele is in an “over powered” position anymore.

I just want some REAL buffs to scepter and focus so I can play and enjoy FA ele in pvp again. I know chances are lower than a chance to drop a precursor from some moa in Queensdale, but please… and if not, at least buff power staff ele… or something… I just don’t want to play that stupid tank anymore…

Avador.8934:

I just want some REAL buffs to scepter and focus so I can play and enjoy FA ele in pvp again. I know chances are lower than a chance to drop a precursor from some moa in Queensdale, but please… and if not, at least buff power staff ele… or something… I just don’t want to play that stupid tank anymore…

I feel you mate

What i woudl like ist a -20% shout CD on tempestios aria.
An if suport is nerft that powerful aura is the target nothing else.
Fix the OL / swap bug for arcane.
And a bit arcane/fire love would be welcome.

No Ice Bow = No reinstall.

The only thing I am hoping for is to either nerf resistance or seperate the distinction between movement impairing conditions and damaging conditions and have resistance only affect damage conditions.

FrownyClown.8402:

The only thing I am hoping for is to either nerf resistance or seperate the distinction between movement impairing conditions and damaging conditions and have resistance only affect damage conditions.

Not me. I’d rather them nurf the output of conditions that some classes have if they plan to nurf resistance. There are so few classes that have the ability to even get resistance (aside from durability runes), so I don’t think its that big of a deal to do anything with it personally.

There is an obnoxious amount of immobilize in WvW right now because of rangers and the annoying taunt from them and revs as well, so resistance is a necessary evil to be able to counter it because it doesn’t seem to matter how many condition clears I have, I get permanently immobilized frequently in fights because I have several other conditions on me and the priority on them is just bad. I think that immobilize should be cleared first, poison second, burning third, chill, bleed, then etc. The condition clear priority ends up making it a major pain in fights.

My predictions are that for pvp heal botting will be nerfed heavily, but still be left far and away the best thing you can do with ele in that format. For pve they will nerf fresh air builds by toning down air overload so that we can all go back to only camping fire with staff all of the time in pve because there shouldn’t be 2 competitive options.

I have hated just about every relevant blance change they have made for ele since hot was released. As a result I have stopped maining it, and it is probably my least played class in pvp since the start of season 2. This is why I am quite cynical about any future changes.

Wolfric.9380:

What i woudl like ist a -20% shout CD on tempestios aria.
An if suport is nerft that powerful aura is the target nothing else.
Fix the OL / swap bug for arcane.
And a bit arcane/fire love would be welcome.

Is powerful aura even good anymore? Ive been running Gale Song and Cleansing waters and I think that’s on metabattle. For real though i want arcane buffs

Alex Shatter.7956:

Wolfric.9380:

What i woudl like ist a -20% shout CD on tempestios aria.
An if suport is nerft that powerful aura is the target nothing else.
Fix the OL / swap bug for arcane.
And a bit arcane/fire love would be welcome.

Is powerful aura even good anymore? Ive been running Gale Song and Cleansing waters and I think that’s on metabattle. For real though i want arcane buffs

I think cleasing waters is Pretty mandatory now.

When do they typically post the details of an upcoming patch? I’ve seen no mention of anything related to their direction for balancing…. Why is transparency so taboo?

Cuz if they told us what they were gonna do before they do it, the forums would start complaining about it before it even happened. Guaranteed. I mean the spring balance patch was really good imo, but almost every class still had a bunch of QQ threads…

bearshaman.3421:

Cuz if they told us what they were gonna do before they do it, the forums would start complaining about it before it even happened. Guaranteed. I mean the spring balance patch was really good imo, but almost every class still had a bunch of QQ threads…

The great thing about feedback (even from forums) is that you can pick and choose what, if anything, you use to consider changes.

Yes, they’re the ones that know how to develop and market a game. But we’re the final decision-makers on their product’s success.

Honest opinion:

I expect nothing and will still be disappointed.

- Since Tempest was revealed ANET had almost 0 interaction with the forums and Tempest came out as a (IMO) boring healbot with another terrible elite (/IMO);

- After HoT powercreep came about and elementalist saw its options (D/D, S/F, Staff) reduced to D/F healbot shouter in sPVP.

Shouts, BTW are nothing more than gimmick aura spam for heal and condi cleanse. I dare say that if shouts had lower cooldowns but only gave the aura and had the “shout” skill type, people would call it a buff;

- Developers are clueless on what to do to fix stuff. Main example: consider how since HoT they are saying they are going to make scepter viable, but I have yet to see any ele running scepter – and we had 3 quarterlies already;

- All skills of ele (most shouts (gimmick) and cantrips (which were needlessly nerfed due to trait nerf) excluded) and all of the ele elite skills, have been worthless for years now without any indication that they will be improved in any way that makes you want to consider using them (maybe FGS for the mobility, but a 240s cooldown mobility skill is a joke for an elite, and as for rebound, see my comment above on gimmicky nature of shouts);

- Since before HoT (and even more so after HoT), Ele has been the profession that IMO has practically mandatory trait lines and almost 0 trait competition in the trait lines (i.e., almost everyone that picks a trait line picks the same traits with almost no variation, water and tempest being the most glaring offenders, but all trait lines have reasonable number of options that are marginally better (if at all) than not picking a trait).

With all of this, I truly expect nothing. If you think this patch will make ele have more options, stop being just a healbot, etc, you are truly an optimistic for you see an empty glass as a glass full. And I honestly salute your positivism – no sarcasm -

In the meantime I will continue to express my dissatisfaction in the only way I see as having any effect – no longer putting a single dime in the game.

No not nervous ele has always had a healy/sustain nature and it most likely will continue to unless the next elite changes that. biggest difference this season in my eyes was the ability to kill ppl fairly quickly that were not total squish while maintaining a super high level of sustain.

Avador.8934:

I just want some REAL buffs to scepter and focus so I can play and enjoy FA ele in pvp again. I know chances are lower than a chance to drop a precursor from some moa in Queensdale, but please… and if not, at least buff power staff ele… or something… I just don’t want to play that stupid tank anymore…

I’d rather leave focus as it is and massively buff dagger offhand, as it could be of much better use to a glassy ele. Mobility yo…

Avador.8934:

I just want some REAL buffs to scepter and focus so I can play and enjoy FA ele in pvp again. I know chances are lower than a chance to drop a precursor from some moa in Queensdale, but please… and if not, at least buff power staff ele… or something… I just don’t want to play that stupid tank anymore…

Buffing scepter won’t do any good unless they give it enough instant burst to 100-0 people again. Other burst-capable classes (especially thief, rev, and even DH, mesmer, and engie) have WAY too much hard mitigation to make the long-CD burst potential of the ele relevant. These other classes can also 100—>0 a burst ele on a MUCH shorter CD, while also being more mobile on the map. The things that made burst ele viable in the past (instant destruction of people if properly executed, good mobility, decent cleanse) are no longer comparative strengths, and don’t exploit any opponent weaknesses.

Without additional hard mitigation, ele is forced into – AT BEST – a bruiser role to do damage, and even THAT involves speccing almost all defense and relying to might stacking. With HoT powercreep, I don’t think even celestial amulet would let you keep up with current scrapper builds for that role (scrapper is the successor to cele ele btw).

The problem for the ele class has always been, and will always be, one of defense. EVERY viable build FOREVER has basically been specced with maximum defense, which has meant cleanses, protection, and healing out the wazoo. After giving eles strong capability to do these things group-wide, I can’t see them all of a sudden offering more selfish survival that would be necessary for a dps pvp spec, as this would buff the bunker/support build.

The only thing that could make a pvp-viable dps ele build is to start nerfing everything in HoT. That hasn’t even started happening, so don’t hold your breath.

Wrong. They can still buff DPS Eles by giving them self-sustain outside of Water/Earth. And yes, Scepter won’t be doing any 100-0 anytime soon as long as there are so many passives lying around.

Ele is the same, we so much passive defenses that synergize so well with our Water/Tempest traits. I experienced it many times wherein I would wait for an enemy condi burst and use Cleansing Fire but a split second after that condi burst, my passives already saved the crap out of me which resulted into wasting Cleansing Fire as I was not quick enough to react nor was expecting those passives to proc.

And I believe access to Protection is mandatory for Eles given that we have the lowest base HP and Armor in the game. IMO if access to boons were core mechanics for Ele, meaning we don’t have to trait for them (of course nerfs to other traits are a given), we can start looking at other traits. Oh please just give us an active sustain like conditional Life Steal (e.g life steal on burning enemies)

The problem is, that the sulf-sustain that is needed for a dps role (in pvp) is hard mitigation – blocks, invulns, evades, stealth – things that allow you to AVOID damage.

All of eles defense is soft mitigation – protection, cleanse, regen, etc. All of these defenses reduce damage of hits but don’t reduce the number of hits.

If you give hard mitigation that is controllable, that means adding more evades to weapon skills, reducing the CD of invulns/blocks like mistform and arcane shield, etc. Any of these things can be stacked onto the bunker build and enhance that as well as the burst build.

The class is fundamentally flawed and can’t play the dps role in pvp. To give it the tools to play a dps role (meaning hard mitigation that can compete with DH, revs, and daredevils) would make ele OP at bunkering. There was a time when you could have just slightly increased these active mitigations, and maybe even modified them, to put something like fresh-air ele in the picture, but power creep has gotten so out of control, that you would need to put arcane shield on a 15s CD and obsidian flesh on a 20s CD while also increasing the damage. To put it simply, this just isn’t going to happen.

BlackBeard.2873:

The problem is, that the sulf-sustain that is needed for a dps role (in pvp) is hard mitigation – blocks, invulns, evades, stealth – things that allow you to AVOID damage.

All of eles defense is soft mitigation – protection, cleanse, regen, etc. All of these defenses reduce damage of hits but don’t reduce the number of hits.

If you give hard mitigation that is controllable, that means adding more evades to weapon skills, reducing the CD of invulns/blocks like mistform and arcane shield, etc. Any of these things can be stacked onto the bunker build and enhance that as well as the burst build.

The class is fundamentally flawed and can’t play the dps role in pvp. To give it the tools to play a dps role (meaning hard mitigation that can compete with DH, revs, and daredevils) would make ele OP at bunkering. There was a time when you could have just slightly increased these active mitigations, and maybe even modified them, to put something like fresh-air ele in the picture, but power creep has gotten so out of control, that you would need to put arcane shield on a 15s CD and obsidian flesh on a 20s CD while also increasing the damage. To put it simply, this just isn’t going to happen.

I don’t completely disagree with you but…I still believe that few CD reduction there and there would at the very least give a chance to DPS ele.

CD reduction of arcane shield is a no brainer , followed by effective buffs to scepter and dunno maybe attempts to make condi ele viable…one thing is sure, we can’t be forced into a support role forever

i think every class needs an update to unused traits. Whether that is reduced cd, more utility or a complete rework. i hope anet addresses this in the next quarterly update.

BlackBeard.2873:

The problem is, that the sulf-sustain that is needed for a dps role (in pvp) is hard mitigation – blocks, invulns, evades, stealth – things that allow you to AVOID damage.

All of eles defense is soft mitigation – protection, cleanse, regen, etc. All of these defenses reduce damage of hits but don’t reduce the number of hits.

If you give hard mitigation that is controllable, that means adding more evades to weapon skills, reducing the CD of invulns/blocks like mistform and arcane shield, etc. Any of these things can be stacked onto the bunker build and enhance that as well as the burst build.

The class is fundamentally flawed and can’t play the dps role in pvp. To give it the tools to play a dps role (meaning hard mitigation that can compete with DH, revs, and daredevils) would make ele OP at bunkering. There was a time when you could have just slightly increased these active mitigations, and maybe even modified them, to put something like fresh-air ele in the picture, but power creep has gotten so out of control, that you would need to put arcane shield on a 15s CD and obsidian flesh on a 20s CD while also increasing the damage. To put it simply, this just isn’t going to happen.

I think this is spot on. Due to the game wide increase in damage output and efficiency (ease of landing skills, excessive cleave etc), the fundamental sustain mechanics of eles are completely insufficient at their base stats.

Personally, I’m in the “just kittening gut the team support and give us some proper active defense”-camp on this one. I’m still dreaming about a conjure rework to kit-like functionality with a focus on utility and defensive skills.

Tbh a lot of classes are fearing the balance patch as some have very few builds available. Ele at least has diversity in PvE and WvW while being stuck in 1 kinda rubbish role in PvP. Many classes pretty much have 1 viable build per game mode and some of them are debatable as to effectiveness.

Would be nice to see a sceptre full rework done to make it a viable weapon and same for arcane skills. A big nerf needs to happen to boon and condition spam in the game and some aspects of elite specs need tuning down a little, then it should be in a better state imo.

Considering they left the broken Inscription trait untouched for three months, my hopes are not that high to get us out of the Tempest/bunkery role we have in PvP now.
Everything we are suggesting for pretty much years now has only been touched on the surface (Cantrip dominance, lack of sustain outside Water, HP gap to mid/high HP professions, Sceptre issues etc.)
Compared to Druid, Warrior with its resistance and Scrapper, I think Tempest “should” not feel the nerf hammer too much, but we all know Anet balancing has never be subtle.

From a global balancing perspective, I think conditions have to be toned down across the board and boons are far too stackable.

ArthurDent.9538:

My predictions are that for pvp heal botting will be nerfed heavily, but still be left far and away the best thing you can do with ele in that format. For pve they will nerf fresh air builds by toning down air overload so that we can all go back to only camping fire with staff all of the time in pve because there shouldn’t be 2 competitive options.

I have hated just about every relevant blance change they have made for ele since hot was released. As a result I have stopped maining it, and it is probably my least played class in pvp since the start of season 2. This is why I am quite cynical about any future changes.

I would like to necro this thread since it contains conclusive proof that I am a psychic since everything I predicted came true.

ArthurDent.9538:

ArthurDent.9538:

My predictions are that for pvp heal botting will be nerfed heavily, but still be left far and away the best thing you can do with ele in that format. For pve they will nerf fresh air builds by toning down air overload so that we can all go back to only camping fire with staff all of the time in pve because there shouldn’t be 2 competitive options.

I have hated just about every relevant blance change they have made for ele since hot was released. As a result I have stopped maining it, and it is probably my least played class in pvp since the start of season 2. This is why I am quite cynical about any future changes.

I would like to necro this thread since it contains conclusive proof that I am a psychic since everything I predicted came true.

I thought about coming back to gw2, but after seeing this and other posts. I don’t believe there is even a point as my main character was a Ele =\

ArthurDent.9538:

ArthurDent.9538:

My predictions are that for pvp heal botting will be nerfed heavily, but still be left far and away the best thing you can do with ele in that format. For pve they will nerf fresh air builds by toning down air overload so that we can all go back to only camping fire with staff all of the time in pve because there shouldn’t be 2 competitive options.

I have hated just about every relevant blance change they have made for ele since hot was released. As a result I have stopped maining it, and it is probably my least played class in pvp since the start of season 2. This is why I am quite cynical about any future changes.

I would like to necro this thread since it contains conclusive proof that I am a psychic since everything I predicted came true.

Yeah 100% correct on the exceedingly obvious nerf ele healing.

100% incorrect on the “they will nerf fresh air builds by toning down air overload so that we can all go back to only camping fire with staff all of the time” as they’re both hit box size dependent as to which gives the higher DPS as well as the mechanics of the fight, stationary or moving.

apharma.3741:

ArthurDent.9538:

ArthurDent.9538:

My predictions are that for pvp heal botting will be nerfed heavily, but still be left far and away the best thing you can do with ele in that format. For pve they will nerf fresh air builds by toning down air overload so that we can all go back to only camping fire with staff all of the time in pve because there shouldn’t be 2 competitive options.

I have hated just about every relevant blance change they have made for ele since hot was released. As a result I have stopped maining it, and it is probably my least played class in pvp since the start of season 2. This is why I am quite cynical about any future changes.

I would like to necro this thread since it contains conclusive proof that I am a psychic since everything I predicted came true.

Yeah 100% correct on the exceedingly obvious nerf ele healing.

100% incorrect on the “they will nerf fresh air builds by toning down air overload so that we can all go back to only camping fire with staff all of the time” as they’re both hit box size dependent as to which gives the higher DPS as well as the mechanics of the fight, stationary or moving.

From a raiding perspective fresh air is more or less dead. It currently loses on dps to a thief under optimal circumstances and doesn’t really provide any good utility to make up for it other than wash away the pain which is only a bit better for the group then thief healing venom. Then the more sub optimal the circumstances become, the more thief dps out classes fresh air such as thief not needing to worry about moving targets, not needing to worry about canceling a key skill from needing to dodge, or not having high up-time on alacrity. The only reasons to take ele in raids now are if the target hit box is big, you need ranged dps, or you want a heal crutch with the water camping build. In all cases you take staff.

Arthur is correct here.

Fresh air is still usable, and raids can be cleared in more casual groups with it, but you aren’t going to see any serious groups taking it.

Fresh air, and many other ele builds really took it in the gut with the last nerfs to alacrity traits, and air overload.

BlackBeard.2873:

Arthur is correct here.

Fresh air is still usable, and raids can be cleared in more casual groups with it, but you aren’t going to see any serious groups taking it.

Fresh air, and many other ele builds really took it in the gut with the last nerfs to alacrity traits, and air overload.

I don’t think they like the class, from memory:

Recently
13% nerf to skill recharge
Healing nerf
10% Damage nerf to air overload
Lava font cd nerf
Ride the Lightning stealth nerf

Earlier:
Might on Cantrip nerf
Blindness on burning nerf
Diamond skin nerf
Protection stacking nerf

Before that:
Ice Bow nerf
Line-casting and Meteor Shower nerf
Meteornado nerf
Healing and cleansing nerfs
Ride the Lightning nerf 3

Before then:
it took a petition to save Elemental Attunement
Ride the Lightning nerf 2

Even Before then:
Mist form nerf
Ride the Lightning nerf 1

Xillllix.3485:

Before then:
it took a petition to save Elemental Attunement
Ride the Lightning nerf 2

Can anyone explain this in detail please ?

BlackBeard.2873:

Arthur is correct here.

Fresh air is still usable, and raids can be cleared in more casual groups with it, but you aren’t going to see any serious groups taking it.

Fresh air, and many other ele builds really took it in the gut with the last nerfs to alacrity traits, and air overload.

Sure the “serious” ones that have people who have every class lvl 80 in ascended meta gear might swap to thief, unfortunately a lot of people actually don’t have thieves because they found it abysmally boring to play.

Fresh Air ele does competitive damage against all other options except thief and staff is still gold standard for static/large hitbox enemies.

This is what I use for reference on DPS

At the end of the day if a fresh air ele turned up to raids and I knew they were good on ele I wouldn’t turn them away to get a thief for that extra damage. If the gap between FA ele and most other classes was 4-5k then yes I’d say it’s an issue but this isn’t the case, it’s only 4-5k under 1 class, thief.

Kurt Wulfgang.2436:

Xillllix.3485:

Before then:
it took a petition to save Elemental Attunement
Ride the Lightning nerf 2

Can anyone explain this in detail please ?

They wanted to make it grandmaster and nerf renewing stamina. We rioted. We won. They came back and double nerfed renewing stamina later, and now Arcana is barely used, so gg

I expect either nothing, or overall nerfs with a single buff to Shatterstone to compensate.

The balance team are pretty errm….
I don’t think balancing is their strong point.

Xillllix.3485:

BlackBeard.2873:

Arthur is correct here.

Fresh air is still usable, and raids can be cleared in more casual groups with it, but you aren’t going to see any serious groups taking it.

Fresh air, and many other ele builds really took it in the gut with the last nerfs to alacrity traits, and air overload.

I don’t think they like the class, from memory:

Recently
13% nerf to skill recharge
Healing nerf
10% Damage nerf to air overload
Lava font cd nerf
Ride the Lightning stealth nerf

Earlier:
Might on Cantrip nerf
Blindness on burning nerf
Diamond skin nerf
Protection stacking nerf

Before that:
Ice Bow nerf
Line-casting and Meteor Shower nerf
Meteornado nerf
Healing and cleansing nerfs
Ride the Lightning nerf 3

Before then:
it took a petition to save Elemental Attunement
Ride the Lightning nerf 2

Even Before then:
Mist form nerf
Ride the Lightning nerf 1

What I wouldn’t give for an actual dedicated dev or dialogue about ele with anet to show how you can properly balance it according to difficulty of play and in comparison to other classes. But their attitude when nerfing icebow and others showed that…
1. They need better community relations bc bragging about a nerf shows bias and is unprofessional.
2. They showed that they really only know how to balance classes that are reliant on autoattacks and skills 2-5 for support as opposed to ele and engi which are more reliant on 2-5 and at least in ele’s case their autoattacks are pretty garbage. The fact that lightning whip is actually half decent is made irrelevant by the best build using it being unviable in a raid setting with similar dps numbers to other classes with way more team utility most notably guardian though I dont think guard should be nerfed. If anything we need a variety of builds to be useful rather than just staff.

1 staff ranged
1 melee (preferably not full support)

That is all I ask tbh lol. I miss the thrill of playing melee ele but now I cant justify it in any setting as staff does better in nearly all situations