Guild Wars 2

Bringing this up because of a change that may occur on the december 10th patch (stickied above) has made a matter which has been important since launch even more important.

Attunements are supposed to be the ele equivalent of weapon swapping are they not?

Why then are they affected by chill and proc confusion? More often than not elementalists have to switch attunements to cleanse, if they do not have cleansing wave (a trait which will possibly be made more difficult to obtain on december 10th), attempting to cleanse confusion kills them, as the confusion procs upon attunement swapping as if it is an ability rather than a weapon swap. Additionally, chill does far more than slow the skills on recharge, its affecting attunements prevents you from getting to skills you haven’t even used yet.

Now I’m all for something being done about cleansing wave, if a trait is flat-out required for every single build in a class, something needs to be done about it. But this needs to be fixed first or the attunement swap changes coming on the 10th may be all for naught as every player is forced in to the water tree just to keep from constantly dying to conditions.

Yes attunement swap works as a weapon swap, as I have sigil of battle and sigil of hydromancy on my Ele’s weapons.

Malganis.7468:

Yes attunement swap works as a weapon swap, as I have sigil of battle and sigil of hydromancy on my Ele’s weapons.

You didn’t even read anything more than the title did you? I realized after I posted that I should have worded the title differently…

Any kind moderators out there that would be willing to change the title to reflect the OP?

Conncept.7638:

Malganis.7468:

Yes attunement swap works as a weapon swap, as I have sigil of battle and sigil of hydromancy on my Ele’s weapons.

You didn’t even read anything more than the title did you? I realized after I posted that I should have worded the title differently…

Any kind moderators out there that would be willing to change the title to reflect the OP?

Yes. Because attunement swapping is exactly like weapon swapping. All other classes get healing, buffs and other extra benefits every time they weapon swap four times in a row with out a cool down.

Azure Prower.8701:

Conncept.7638:

Malganis.7468:

Yes attunement swap works as a weapon swap, as I have sigil of battle and sigil of hydromancy on my Ele’s weapons.

You didn’t even read anything more than the title did you? I realized after I posted that I should have worded the title differently…

Any kind moderators out there that would be willing to change the title to reflect the OP?

Yes. Because attunement swapping is exactly like weapon swapping. All other classes get healing, buffs and other extra benefits every time they weapon swap four times in a row with out a cool down.

Two for two…

Firstly, it isn’t exactly like attunement swapping, hence the OP you should have read.

Guys, sorry for being a bit snippity but I am well aware the that attunement swapping is treated like weapon swapping so far as upgrade components are concerned. My main is a level 80 Elementalist in full ascended gear, no stranger to PvP or WvW, and who has gained me nearly the entirety of my 7000 AP.

My post questions why it isn’t treated as weapon swapping in other aspects of play. Specifically, questioning why it procs enemy abilities as if it isn’t a weapon swap but is instead an ability, prime examples being how it interacts with confusion and chill. Attunement swapping is affected by chill, and procs confusion, whereas weapon swapping is not and does not. So it isn’t treated like a weapon swap in all aspects of play.

And I bring this up because it is a problem which will be exacerbated with the potential change of the trait Cleansing Wave scheduled for the next big PvP update. If this change goes through as is, elementalists weapon-based condition will basically become worthless against proc’d abilities, because you will have to swap attunements to get to them, which is counted as an ability use, and therefore procs those conditions you are trying to remove.

I’d say the fact that you can swap to four weapon sets as opposed to the general 2 weapon sets balances out things like confusion/chill affecting it.

Conncept.7638:

Azure Prower.8701:

Conncept.7638:

Malganis.7468:

Yes attunement swap works as a weapon swap, as I have sigil of battle and sigil of hydromancy on my Ele’s weapons.

You didn’t even read anything more than the title did you? I realized after I posted that I should have worded the title differently…

Any kind moderators out there that would be willing to change the title to reflect the OP?

Yes. Because attunement swapping is exactly like weapon swapping. All other classes get healing, buffs and other extra benefits every time they weapon swap four times in a row with out a cool down.

Two for two…

Firstly, it isn’t exactly like attunement swapping, hence the OP you should have read.

Guys, sorry for being a bit snippity but I am well aware the that attunement swapping is treated like weapon swapping so far as upgrade components are concerned. My main is a level 80 Elementalist in full ascended gear, no stranger to PvP or WvW, and who has gained me nearly the entirety of my 7000 AP.

My post questions why it isn’t treated as weapon swapping in other aspects of play. Specifically, questioning why it procs enemy abilities as if it isn’t a weapon swap but is instead an ability, prime examples being how it interacts with confusion and chill. Attunement swapping is affected by chill, and procs confusion, whereas weapon swapping is not and does not. So it isn’t treated like a weapon swap in all aspects of play.

And I bring this up because it is a problem which will be exacerbated with the potential change of the trait Cleansing Wave scheduled for the next big PvP update. If this change goes through as is, elementalists weapon-based condition will basically become worthless against proc’d abilities, because you will have to swap attunements to get to them, which is counted as an ability use, and therefore procs those conditions you are trying to remove.

I saw the question “Why then are they affected by chill and proc confusion?” and answered it.

Also why isn’t this in the elementalist forums?

Guhracie.3419:

I’d say the fact that you can swap to four weapon sets as opposed to the general 2 weapon sets balances out things like confusion/chill affecting it.

That makes no sense, elementalist is the bottom tier class right now in every single game mode. We can use a staff in WvW, and give people conjures in dungeons, that’s pretty much all we have at this point that competes with any other class in usefullness. Having 20 abilities versus 10 does not add to our power in any way shape or form, it just adds to the complication of playing, which I and a lot of players like and consider fun, but which we would appreciate not punishing us for playing correctly, for example, trying to remove a condition causing the condition to kill us.

Azure Prower.8701:

Also why isn’t this in the elementalist forums?

Because it’s largely about the Dec 10th changes which were discussed here in GD and are currently stickied at the top of the page.

Conncept.7638:

Guhracie.3419:

I’d say the fact that you can swap to four weapon sets as opposed to the general 2 weapon sets balances out things like confusion/chill affecting it.

That makes no sense, elementalist is the bottom tier class right now in every single game mode. We can use a staff in WvW, and give people conjures in dungeons, that’s pretty much all we have at this point that competes with any other class in usefullness. Having 20 abilities versus 10 does not add to our power in any way shape or form, it just adds to the complication of playing, which I and a lot of players like and consider fun, but which we would appreciate not punishing us for playing correctly, for example, trying to remove a condition causing the condition to kill us.

Azure Prower.8701:

Also why isn’t this in the elementalist forums?

Because it’s largely about the Dec 10th changes which were discussed here in GD and are currently stickied at the top of the page.

I don’t really like how elementalists play, so I’m not an expert on them. However, the ability to swap between 20 abilities doesn’t help you out at all? Really? You see no benefit to having twice as many available abilities as the rest of the professions?

Also, I’m in no way arguing that it’s fair or that it’s working, and I can’t change how the profession plays as I don’t have an Anet tag. I was merely offering a suggestion that makes sense to me. Especially given that I used to main an engineer, who can have up to four different weapon kits, at the cost of all their utility slots.

I think you’ve answered you own question – they are treated both as a skill with a cd and as a weapon swap. You do make an interesting point that we are are the only class who has our weapon swap slowed down by chill. I think this is because our weapon swap is more powerful then most other classes – boons, cleansing wave etc. So chill can provide a some good counter play – for example, you might chill an ele as he swaps out of air attunment to buy you some time before the next burst. I know eles need some love in pvp right now, but I think this at least is working as intended.

Also eles are one of the most desired professions in organized dungeon groups at the moment – the conjures are strong but they are just one of many reasons to bring an ele. Since we only can use one weapon set at a time, saying “we can bring a staff to wvw” isn’t much evidence that we are bottom tier. If your zerging eles provide some of the most important combo fields and good aoe dps. Roaming eles face the same problems as they do in s/tpvp, which is the only place we really struggle.

Conncept.7638:

we would appreciate not punishing us for playing correctly, for example, trying to remove a condition causing the condition to kill us.

Every other profession has the same problem. Activating a skill to remove confusion is going to trigger confusion before it removes it. Whether it’s cleansing wave (the trait or the skill), cleansing fire, shake it off, smite conditions, etc. doesn’t matter, they all work the same. If you’re low enough that activating 1 skill to remove confusion kills you, the other player(s) won, fair and square.

Chill affecting attunement swaps is a little strange, but attunement swaps triggering confusion makes perfect sense. We shouldn’t have an active condition removal tool that doesn’t trigger confusion when no one else does.

Conncept.7638:

I and a lot of players like and consider fun, but which we would appreciate not punishing us for playing correctly, for example, trying to remove a condition causing the condition to kill us.

You realize this applies to every single other class? If you’re too low on health to cleanse confusion you just need to live with the fact that you now have to wait for it to end before being able to heal up. Also if you find yourself in this situation you clearly were not playing correctly beforehand one way or another.

Conncept.7638:

Bringing this up because of a change that may occur on the december 10th patch (stickied above) has made a matter which has been important since launch even more important.

Attunements are supposed to be the ele equivalent of weapon swapping are they not?

Why then are they affected by chill and proc confusion? More often than not elementalists have to switch attunements to cleanse, if they do not have cleansing wave (a trait which will possibly be made more difficult to obtain on december 10th), attempting to cleanse confusion kills them, as the confusion procs upon attunement swapping as if it is an ability rather than a weapon swap. Additionally, chill does far more than slow the skills on recharge, its affecting attunements prevents you from getting to skills you haven’t even used yet.

Now I’m all for something being done about cleansing wave, if a trait is flat-out required for every single build in a class, something needs to be done about it. But this needs to be fixed first or the attunement swap changes coming on the 10th may be all for naught as every player is forced in to the water tree just to keep from constantly dying to conditions.

Could you elaborate as to what the problem is?

Yea i posted something similar, chill destroys eles and we depend so much on attunements like if we dont have water available we are dead due conditions or hp. I dont understand why it doesnt affect thieves initiative, weapons swap , etc.

Morelia.6835:

Conncept.7638:

I and a lot of players like and consider fun, but which we would appreciate not punishing us for playing correctly, for example, trying to remove a condition causing the condition to kill us.

You realize this applies to every single other class? If you’re too low on health to cleanse confusion you just need to live with the fact that you now have to wait for it to end before being able to heal up. Also if you find yourself in this situation you clearly were not playing correctly beforehand one way or another.

Yes I am aware, but it doesn’t apply twice in the case of other classes. Just using a condition remover isn’t going to kill you unless you are at very low health, especially in PvP and WvW. However having to use an ability just to get to your condition remover is effectively doubling the condition damage we take to remove it. In other words in some cases we alone are dealing with the pre-50% nerf confusion, in which case if the confusion burst is high enough it won’t matter how low your health is when it procs, it’ll pretty much ensure your death. We can only have 21000 HP, 25 stacks of confusion proc’d twice can easily add up to 18000 or more damage.

These people saying having extra skills is an advantage. They’re generally weaker than the skills of other classes, and generally serve the same purposes.

Swapping to Earth doesn’t really give you access to defensive skills, it just gives you Protection if you take Elemental Attunement. Water gives us healing skills that take a while to use, reducing our damage output and making us more susceptible to burst damage than a class with less healing and higher base health and/or armor.

Guhracie.3419:

Conncept.7638:

Guhracie.3419:

I’d say the fact that you can swap to four weapon sets as opposed to the general 2 weapon sets balances out things like confusion/chill affecting it.

That makes no sense, elementalist is the bottom tier class right now in every single game mode. We can use a staff in WvW, and give people conjures in dungeons, that’s pretty much all we have at this point that competes with any other class in usefullness. Having 20 abilities versus 10 does not add to our power in any way shape or form, it just adds to the complication of playing, which I and a lot of players like and consider fun, but which we would appreciate not punishing us for playing correctly, for example, trying to remove a condition causing the condition to kill us.

Azure Prower.8701:

Also why isn’t this in the elementalist forums?

Because it’s largely about the Dec 10th changes which were discussed here in GD and are currently stickied at the top of the page.

I don’t really like how elementalists play, so I’m not an expert on them. However, the ability to swap between 20 abilities doesn’t help you out at all? Really? You see no benefit to having twice as many available abilities as the rest of the professions?

Also, I’m in no way arguing that it’s fair or that it’s working, and I can’t change how the profession plays as I don’t have an Anet tag. I was merely offering a suggestion that makes sense to me. Especially given that I used to main an engineer, who can have up to four different weapon kits, at the cost of all their utility slots.

Since you are not an Ele player, then let me inform you. I would rather have all four elements on one weapon (favored element chosen as a trait or decided per weapon type to add the 5th slot ) and have the option to quickly move between weapons with the benefit of a “on swap” sigil only on one weapon to the get the benefit, rather than the delays that come with attunement and the kittening of Ele weapon skills that ultimately doubles the amount of time it takes to be equally effective. More to that point, our skills have been gutted of enhancements with conditions and traits synergy because of the concept of attunements adding strength through choice. In fact, attunements have weakened us because of time constraints and division of skill effects.

L2Ele

Conncept.7638:

Bringing this up because of a change that may occur on the december 10th patch (stickied above) has made a matter which has been important since launch even more important.

Attunements are supposed to be the ele equivalent of weapon swapping are they not?

Why then are they affected by chill and proc confusion? More often than not elementalists have to switch attunements to cleanse, if they do not have cleansing wave (a trait which will possibly be made more difficult to obtain on december 10th), attempting to cleanse confusion kills them, as the confusion procs upon attunement swapping as if it is an ability rather than a weapon swap. Additionally, chill does far more than slow the skills on recharge, its affecting attunements prevents you from getting to skills you haven’t even used yet.

Now I’m all for something being done about cleansing wave, if a trait is flat-out required for every single build in a class, something needs to be done about it. But this needs to be fixed first or the attunement swap changes coming on the 10th may be all for naught as every player is forced in to the water tree just to keep from constantly dying to conditions.

1st bolded part: because when elementalist start spending trait points, the f1-f4 “attunement swaps” ALSO become spells. and it’s the spell status that triggers confusion and chill side effects. all of the elemental 15 point minor traits convert the swaps into spells, and so does elemental attunement trait. any other trait that triggers off of attunement swap also changes the swap into a spell.

2nd bolded part: what do you mean? do you mean that chill is affecting the recharge of attunement swapping to just the element you swapped into? or do you mean slowing the recharge of the global attunement swap? or do you mean slowing the recharge of the weapon skills associated with the attunement you just swapped into?

what i think you’re saying: because chill affects the cooldown of water attunement when i swap into water attunement, i lose the ability to use the water weapon skills i haven’t used because i immediately swapped out of water (because i only wanted the AoE condition removal), because the water weapon skills are now gated behind a longer recharge to get back into water attunement (because of chill).

Guhracie.3419:

Conncept.7638:

Guhracie.3419:

I’d say the fact that you can swap to four weapon sets as opposed to the general 2 weapon sets balances out things like confusion/chill affecting it.

That makes no sense, elementalist is the bottom tier class right now in every single game mode. We can use a staff in WvW, and give people conjures in dungeons, that’s pretty much all we have at this point that competes with any other class in usefullness. Having 20 abilities versus 10 does not add to our power in any way shape or form, it just adds to the complication of playing, which I and a lot of players like and consider fun, but which we would appreciate not punishing us for playing correctly, for example, trying to remove a condition causing the condition to kill us.

Azure Prower.8701:

Also why isn’t this in the elementalist forums?

Because it’s largely about the Dec 10th changes which were discussed here in GD and are currently stickied at the top of the page.

I don’t really like how elementalists play, so I’m not an expert on them. However, the ability to swap between 20 abilities doesn’t help you out at all? Really? You see no benefit to having twice as many available abilities as the rest of the professions?

Also, I’m in no way arguing that it’s fair or that it’s working, and I can’t change how the profession plays as I don’t have an Anet tag. I was merely offering a suggestion that makes sense to me. Especially given that I used to main an engineer, who can have up to four different weapon kits, at the cost of all their utility slots.

i am responding to the bolded part , about the misconception that elementalists have twice the skills of other classes. most people forget to add in the fact that many melee weapons have chain-skill-auto-attacks. many people totally ignore the class mechanic skills of other classes (like death shroud, guardian virtues, mesmer shatters) that also add abilities to the classes. sure, ele’s have 20 weapon skills, but other classes’ f1-f4 skills are just as powerful. the guardian virtues are basically 4 free signets. engineer kits provide them with even MORE weapon skills than ele’s have. sure, ele’s can fill their utility bars full of conjures, too… but lumping a general statement that ele’s always run with twice as many skills available is an insult to every other class in the game. in my bacon deficient opinion of course.

Hey, guys, I’ve read over your posts and I see where you’re coming from. The point about the F1-F4 skills is particularly notable. I apologize for my tone and making those statements without having the experience to back them up. I still don’t see it as a broken mechanic, but you’ve made some very valid points about how it functions and many of my arguments are quite flawed.

If you’re traited for anything to happen on attunement swap (like Elemental Attunement), then it’s going to proc confusion.

Also, although attunement swapping procs weapon sigils, they aren’t a true weapons swap, aren’t triggered with the ~ key, and they still have a spell cooldown and so will be affected by chill. Makes sense to me.

Confusion activates every time a “skill” activates. Therefore, if you have Attunement swap traits that activate abilities when you swap attunements, it will activate confusion. The same thing happens with other professions who activate skills on-dodge, for example.

There is no excuse I can think of why chill should affect attunement swapping. As far as I know, it does not affect any other form of weapon swapping. It could theoretically affect Engi kits, but I don’t think it does, because they don’t have any cooldown to increase.

Regarding the posts indicating that it is “fair” for chill to affect attunement swapping because Elementalists have 20 skills…Assuming we accept that ANet feels the Ele’s 20 skills are balanced vs the other profession mechanics, and since Eles don’t have an active weapon swap option, then IF it is “fair” for chill to affect attunement swapping, then it would also be “fair” for it to affect every other profession’s weapon swap cooldown and impose a cooldown on the Engineer’s kits. Or maybe it should temporarily lock the other professions out of a random 3/4 of their weapon skills, regardless of whether those skills are on cooldown. After all, that’s exactly what it’s doing to the Elementalist, and that’s “fair”, right? I really don’t think that argument is very well thought through.

Seras.5702:

If you’re traited for anything to happen on attunement swap (like Elemental Attunement), then it’s going to proc confusion.

Also, although attunement swapping procs weapon sigils, they aren’t a true weapons swap, aren’t triggered with the ~ key, and they still have a spell cooldown and so will be affected by chill. Makes sense to me.

And that I am fine with, that happens with weapon swaps procs, dodge procs, and all other on-procs effects and it is a compltetely reasonable trade-off, if you tack an ability-proc onto the end of something it should logically now count as an ability.

However with attunememnts this happens regardless of whether we have any such abilities at all procing, I know I’ve tested it, and that makes no sense.