Guild Wars 2

I have heard that the Elementalist is intended to be the “jack of all trades”, however this makes no sense in a game without the class trinity. Because every class in gw2 is designed to be a jack of all trades, everybody can bunker, dps or support. However some classes excel in certain areas, thieves and warriors in dps, guardians in bunkering and support, etc. So my question is, if the Elementalist is really intended to be a jack of all trades, doesn’t this really mean that the Elementalist will simply never excel in any area and never have a place in sPvP?

In other words, if another class will always do a job better then the Elementalist, why would one ever be used?

I think if this was adjusted to do what you’d think it should do, we would be one step closer to what Ele should be all about.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Talk:Lingering_Elements

Also reduced cooldowns on everything would fix a lot.

The "Jack of all Trades" is that the Ele can do all of those roles with one build, much better than anyone else trying to go hybrid. With my Staff I can do decent AoE damage, group boons/heals, hard and soft crowd control, and still have good mobility.
Another class can perform one or two of these roles rather better, but they’ll lose out significantly in the others.

Whether one can be effective with such a broad range of non-maxed abilities is really unclear - with the right balance, we could be great, but right now a hybrid Ele is hard to do at all well with.

By “jack of all trades” i think they mean in the same build.

While you won’t out damage someone, you will generally have better defense.
While you wont be able to out heal someone, you will generally have better attack
while you wont be able to out support someone, you will still have support.

So basically, you wont have much in each “role” as a class/build that is built for it, you make that up with the other ways.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

While you won’t out damage someone, you will generally have better defense.
While you wont be able to out heal someone, you will generally have better attack
while you wont be able to out support someone, you will still have support.

As for Ele:

1) but you dont have better defense, OR you won’t outdamage ANYone

2) you can heal ppl a little (except for blast finishers on water fields) and average attack
30s+ cds that are extremely hard to hit I dont call high dmg, cause they can be avoided completely most of the time

3) you have support, but mostly for yourself, all ele support skills are pretty selfish

Nah, I was running 0/10/30/0/30 for a while in PvP, Valk amulet, Grove runes:

Good team support: boons from auras (traited air and earth adepts), Rock Solid giving stability on Earth attune, Elemental Attunement giving more boons. AoE heals that are pretty powerful (particularly if more than one finisher is used in a field).

Good damage: I can stack AoE might and fury on myself and others (so this falls under support, too), and have reasonable crit damage and good power - a bit low on precision, but should be maintaining fury so at something like 33% crit chance. Didn’t run Blasting Staff (preferring reduced cooldowns on Arcanes for all those finishers), but smart placement of AoE and use of snares does a decent job.

Good control: no extra control from traits, but Staff gets a field that chills, a ward, a knockback and a stunning field (with dazing strike as a bonus, since I ran the conjured Flame Axe). High mobility from two copies of Burning Retreat and great swiftness uptime.

Along with reasonable personal survivability through Diamond Skin (preventing most snares) and enough armour and heals to survive well against many foes - the only ones I reliably had trouble with were hambows (because kitten they’re just broken) and decent S/D thieves. I plan to try the build without DS at some point, though I’m not sure where best to chuck those 10 points.

So yeah, it’s possible to fill all roles as an Ele - it’s highly unlikely that another class will be able to bring that many options to the table at once while still performing reasonably well.
Yes, the damage is lower than someone else specced for damage, and personal survivability is lower than someone specced for bunkering - but the build can do both of those reasonably well, while also bringing a whole lot more to the table.

Duran.3196:

3) you have support, but mostly for yourself, all ele support skills are pretty selfish

Also… what does this mean? Are you just talking about personal boons?

Eh, warriors win 100% at jack of all trades at the moment, being able to deal decent damage with huge control and very good support.

P Fun Daddy.1208:

Eh, warriors win 100% at jack of all trades at the moment, being able to deal decent damage with huge control and very good support.

Iunno – they’re capable of filling any role really bloody well, but they can’t do them all at once with one build.
Problems come in when you start getting things like hambow – which has both very high AoE damage and very good AoE control. Nobody should be as good as they are in more than one aspect of a build, without sacrificing some of the (also incredible) sustain that Wars still have.

If it is intended for eles to be able to do all things decently with one build, then there will only ever be one build, that which optimizes everything to the greatest extent.
Currently the “standard” D/D build optimizes survivability and damage, but loses in both those categories to any class running a build intended to optimize the same.
As P Fun Daddy noted there are other classes that, with one build, can fill all roles better then an elementalist.

In summation, if eles can do everything in one build, there will only be one build. If they have a variety of builds, they will always be less effective then another profession running that type of build.

This is all assuming the “jack of all trades” idea.

IMO Eles are in the right place, it’s just that they made some innovative improvements to other classes that made Eles outshinned by all.

You gotta remember that Eles were the first revealed and they had an idea how it would work, but somehow down the road other classes got photoshopped while we stayed all-naturel. It’s time for our retouch, and I hope we see it in the Feature Build

The strongest warrior builds I see have very high damage resistance just for being warriors, with a nice amount of cc, and pretty good damage. Condition warriors can even bring some awesome group support.

Ele were designed to be glass cannons…
They were given extremely strong skills with slow cast+ aftercast, that made the difference if they hit you…..that paired with low health and armor but more of anything RANGE…. (no weapon swap ele is stuck in a single range)

Then balancing team kept nerfing everything out of them since beta to the point ele lost its identity and they tried to find another…..

First was an healer class, but was nerfed few month after release.
Than a speed tanky roamer…..but it was nerfed.
Now is a one trick pony burst……

It will be nerfed and replaced with the “new unique role” devs thougt for ele (anti condition i bet).

P.S: enjoy how meteor shower was designed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MlUqf6X9Hg

Short after CD doubled, damage halved and stun removed

P.P.S: they even tried to make ele condition counter or engineer clone (with conjured) but both experiments failed.
I don t think they really have an idea on what ele should be.

LordByron.8369:

I don t think they really have an idea on what ele should be.

I think you are right… Unfortunately.. I once heard someone bring up the idea of Eles being able to go into a “deeper attunement”, basically unlocking new skills in for example, water. Wouldn’t it be interesting if (for example) icebow could be summoned every 60 seconds upon attuning to water if desired?

I think the issue is easier than it seems.

if you look at balancing Devs keeps giving strong nerfs to skills and balancing via traits.

They should totally reverse the process.
Nerfs to traits and balancing via skills…

It would solve the burst ele problem while addressing the lack of viable builds.

But most of all they should stop trying to put ele in a marginal role….they are clearly going against the game design of NO holy trinity.

Just buff skills reduce CD everywhere and nerf traits.

EvilSnowflake.1453:

In other words, if another class will always do a job better then the Elementalist, why would one ever be used?

Because they can do multiple jobs at the same time.

ThiBash.5634:

EvilSnowflake.1453:

In other words, if another class will always do a job better then the Elementalist, why would one ever be used?

Because they can do multiple jobs at the same time.

Lol you wish, you are the “jack of none”

Ugruk.4069:

ThiBash.5634:

EvilSnowflake.1453:

In other words, if another class will always do a job better then the Elementalist, why would one ever be used?

Because they can do multiple jobs at the same time.

Lol you wish, you are the “jack of none”

Only some players are the “jack of none” not the profession.

LightningBlaze.4913:

Ugruk.4069:

ThiBash.5634:

EvilSnowflake.1453:

In other words, if another class will always do a job better then the Elementalist, why would one ever be used?

Because they can do multiple jobs at the same time.

Lol you wish, you are the “jack of none”

Only some players are the “jack of none” not the profession.

Do you even spvp? Are you serious?

Ugruk.4069:

LightningBlaze.4913:

Ugruk.4069:

ThiBash.5634:

EvilSnowflake.1453:

In other words, if another class will always do a job better then the Elementalist, why would one ever be used?

Because they can do multiple jobs at the same time.

Lol you wish, you are the “jack of none”

Only some players are the “jack of none” not the profession.

Do you even spvp? Are you serious?

Hi, Staff Ele here, I’ve hit (and held for a couple of weeks) top 200 soloq with a hybrid build that could do a decent amount of everything. Consistently ranked within the top 1k, currently 525 or something (though right now I’m messing around with Zerker Staff and really enjoying wreaking havoc).

Come back and tell me that Ele is jack of none once you get up to, say, #600 in either leaderboard playing any build with any class. If you can’t do it with anything else, it’s unsurprising that you can’t succeed with Ele, and this is a l2p issue on your part rather than a problem with the Ele as a profession.

(Woo, I’m being an elitist kitten by spouting out my meaningless ranks! And feeding trolls who can’t even play well! Go me!)

I’d say everyone already answered the question, but as a sidenote:
I would definitely place the Elementalist in top tier in DPS, especially because of their might stacking and FGS. (And Meteor Storm, mainly in WvW)

Ele dps is awful bad…
Having to rely on traits totally removing your defense is not how a dps profession works…

A full zerk 0/20/0/20/30 mesmer outdamage by much a full zerker 0/20/0/20/30 ele.

If you don t go deep in the fire line coupled with air line you are just one of the lowest dps in game…..

The skills are underpowered, but traits pushes them a lot.

Also its more about burst than dps since cooldowns are really long.

P.S. a single meteor shower every 3 minutes is not what i call dps.

I’d not go as far to say Ele dps is awful, unless we are referring to d/d Ele in Spvp and comparing their dps to the other classes. Then its awful, its most noticeable when you are trying to build your self for good dps and fight a great bunker build and can’t even lay a dent into them. This problem should be fixed when the next patch comes around and allows PvE gear to be used in spvp.

cheese.4739:

Ugruk.4069:

LightningBlaze.4913:

Ugruk.4069:

ThiBash.5634:

EvilSnowflake.1453:

In other words, if another class will always do a job better then the Elementalist, why would one ever be used?

Because they can do multiple jobs at the same time.

Lol you wish, you are the “jack of none”

Only some players are the “jack of none” not the profession.

Do you even spvp? Are you serious?

Hi, Staff Ele here, I’ve hit (and held for a couple of weeks) top 200 soloq with a hybrid build that could do a decent amount of everything. Consistently ranked within the top 1k, currently 525 or something (though right now I’m messing around with Zerker Staff and really enjoying wreaking havoc).

Come back and tell me that Ele is jack of none once you get up to, say, #600 in either leaderboard playing any build with any class. If you can’t do it with anything else, it’s unsurprising that you can’t succeed with Ele, and this is a l2p issue on your part rather than a problem with the Ele as a profession.

(Woo, I’m being an elitist kitten by spouting out my meaningless ranks! And feeding trolls who can’t even play well! Go me!)

That’s why all the high ranked teams play one….. oops, guess not, show me the build and a video would love to see all that action and effectiveness in game

Ugruk.4069:

cheese.4739:

Ugruk.4069:

LightningBlaze.4913:

Ugruk.4069:

ThiBash.5634:

EvilSnowflake.1453:

In other words, if another class will always do a job better then the Elementalist, why would one ever be used?

Because they can do multiple jobs at the same time.

Lol you wish, you are the “jack of none”

Only some players are the “jack of none” not the profession.

Do you even spvp? Are you serious?

Hi, Staff Ele here, I’ve hit (and held for a couple of weeks) top 200 soloq with a hybrid build that could do a decent amount of everything. Consistently ranked within the top 1k, currently 525 or something (though right now I’m messing around with Zerker Staff and really enjoying wreaking havoc).

Come back and tell me that Ele is jack of none once you get up to, say, #600 in either leaderboard playing any build with any class. If you can’t do it with anything else, it’s unsurprising that you can’t succeed with Ele, and this is a l2p issue on your part rather than a problem with the Ele as a profession.

(Woo, I’m being an elitist kitten by spouting out my meaningless ranks! And feeding trolls who can’t even play well! Go me!)

That’s why all the high ranked teams play one….. oops, guess not, show me the build and a video would love to see all that action and effectiveness in game

There are high ranked team with eles in their group. Why would he bother on showing you a build and video when your experience with the ele is negative in the first place. Ultimately, it won’t help you become a better player.

Ugruk.4069:

That’s why all the high ranked teams play one..... oops, guess not, show me the build and a video would love to see all that action and effectiveness in game

Just because Ele is able to do many roles well doesn’t mean it’s necessarily the best way to play - the metagame still rewards min/maxing as hard as you possibly can.
My point is that Ele *can* play as a jack of all trades pretty well, and at a reasonable level of competitive play (though not necessarily at the top, as you so helpfully point out) - and if you can’t hack it, it’s your abilities that are at fault, not the profession.

Srsly, l2p, then come back and whine about the *actual* problems the Ele has - or better still, actually discuss the profession rather than complain about how you’re terrible at it.

LordByron.8369:

Ele dps is awful bad…
Having to rely on traits totally removing your defense is not how a dps profession works…

A full zerk 0/20/0/20/30 mesmer outdamage by much a full zerker 0/20/0/20/30 ele.

If you don t go deep in the fire line coupled with air line you are just one of the lowest dps in game…..

The skills are underpowered, but traits pushes them a lot.

Also its more about burst than dps since cooldowns are really long.

P.S. a single meteor shower every 3 minutes is not what i call dps.

A class which doesn’t have to sacrifice defense to gain damage is a broken class.
Is it so outrageous that you have to spec into the DAMAGE trait lines to get DAMAGE?

I don’t think Mesmer can out-damage an Ele if they both run glasscannon builds, unless reflections are involved.

Most of Ele’s DPS comes from Lightning Hammer (autoattack) and FGS (Skills 3# and 4#), as far as I know. And those are not on a long cooldown.
There’s a reason the “meta team composition” right now has 1-2 eles.

Meteor Shower’s cooldown is 30 seconds and the duration is 7 seconds. So… what?

I dont what to be mean, but i would consider the warrior the better Jack of all Trades then the elementalist.

LightningBlaze.4913:

Ugruk.4069:

cheese.4739:

Ugruk.4069:

LightningBlaze.4913:

Ugruk.4069:

ThiBash.5634:

EvilSnowflake.1453:

In other words, if another class will always do a job better then the Elementalist, why would one ever be used?

Because they can do multiple jobs at the same time.

Lol you wish, you are the “jack of none”

Only some players are the “jack of none” not the profession.

Do you even spvp? Are you serious?

Hi, Staff Ele here, I’ve hit (and held for a couple of weeks) top 200 soloq with a hybrid build that could do a decent amount of everything. Consistently ranked within the top 1k, currently 525 or something (though right now I’m messing around with Zerker Staff and really enjoying wreaking havoc).

Come back and tell me that Ele is jack of none once you get up to, say, #600 in either leaderboard playing any build with any class. If you can’t do it with anything else, it’s unsurprising that you can’t succeed with Ele, and this is a l2p issue on your part rather than a problem with the Ele as a profession.

(Woo, I’m being an elitist kitten by spouting out my meaningless ranks! And feeding trolls who can’t even play well! Go me!)

That’s why all the high ranked teams play one….. oops, guess not, show me the build and a video would love to see all that action and effectiveness in game

There are high ranked team with eles in their group. Why would he bother on showing you a build and video when your experience with the ele is negative in the first place. Ultimately, it won’t help you become a better player.

Teach me man, show me what teams use an ele without being babysitted every game, show me the true jack of all trades you say you are, please remember im a noob, show me the way…

Here are some great threads and vids with a staff ele in pvp and also against thieves. This is where I went first to “L2P” myself.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/elementalist/Burn-the-Zeitgeist-Staff-Ele-Guide-Video

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/elementalist/Burn-the-Zeitgeist-Part-2-Thieves-Video

Axelwarrior.9084:

A class which doesn’t have to sacrifice defense to gain damage is a broken class.
Is it so outrageous that you have to spec into the DAMAGE trait lines to get DAMAGE?

usual theorycrafting

A soldier warrior has better dps than a zerker ele…with 20 points in air…
Arcana is used to keep near to 25 stacks of might….so its not that defensive…

Almost any single profession can outdamage an ele if the ele doesn t combine every single offensive trait

Point is:
Skills are awful bad
Balancing team didn t see how traits stacks…..

Thus there is really no build diversity….you either combine all offensive traits or your dps sucks.

But what really i don t like is how some people consider defensive what is called “burst ele” in pvp.

make up your mind

Der Buck.5439:

Here are some great threads and vids with a staff ele in pvp and also against thieves. This is where I went first to “L2P” myself.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/elementalist/Burn-the-Zeitgeist-Staff-Ele-Guide-Video

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/elementalist/Burn-the-Zeitgeist-Part-2-Thieves-Video

Thanks for the laugh

I was just tired of people saying only L2P or taking pot shots at posters without saying anything constructive. Glad you appreciated it.

Der Buck.5439:

I was just tired of people saying only L2P or taking pot shots at posters without saying anything constructive. Glad you appreciated it.

He did not appreciate it. He is making fun of it.

Oh he was being serious with the videos? I thought you were joking?

Do you really belive that is an accurate representation of what happens in solo queue? Have you actually watched the quality of the players on the video?

To the Video:

Hrm watched the thief part.
Seriously that was a one on one, both even bowed before and they duelled in close range on a single capture point.
In such cases I have winning quotes against thieves of >60% with my D/D as well, considering most thieves are so predictable you just know when their backstab is incoming, dodge then obliterate them.