(edited by Burrfish.6408)
Auto Attack Numbers
I actually calculated out the base damage coefficients (meaning 0 traits) for Guardian/Ele/Warrior/Thief/Engi/Mesmer, and that included kits for the Engi and conjures for the Ele. Unfortunately, it’s saved on a computer that isn’t currently hooked up and probably won’t be for like a week (poor foresight on my part lol), but iirc Lightning Hammer 1 combo had like a 1.1/1.1/1.8 auto chain coefficient, while Flame Axe and Fiery Greatsword had somewhere around .7-.8 each (per projectile). Numbers for Flame Axe and Fiery Greatsword off a bit because I forgot they granted Power when I did the calculations, and I may not even remember them right because I just don’t care about those two conjures tbh. Their kill time probably isn’t all that different because I believe that Flame Axe did a bit more damage per auto projectile, and even though the GS fires many at a time I think the Flame Axe throws them out pretty fast. I’d have to check my spreadsheet to be sure I remembered correctly, though. Main advantage of GS is that Firestorm is actually pretty strong given its cast time if all ticks hit, and Fiery Rush used properly actually stacks damage quite well too.
Mainhand dagger air 1 was .7/.7 for 1.4 total per attack, scepter air 1 was something horrendously bad on its own.
For comparison, I think 100 Blades was like a 5.4ish coefficient. Don’t remember exactly how long it takes to channel that (and honestly a perfect Whirlwind with Warrior GS is far, far, far, far greater DPS if you ever land one, I think it was 4.2 for a perfect hit in like half a second, as it is actually capable of hitting up to 6 times even though it doesn’t show in combat log… very buggy skill). Hip shot from Engineer rifle is about .65 coefficient. Full perfect Guardian GS Whirling Wrath did like 3.55 on a single target (the bolts that fly out can only hit one target each and are worth about 30% of the total damage if everything hits one target, surprisingly).
also take into account that Fire autoattack splashes quite a bit. Also Earth causes weakness, so all of the staff effects should have lower dps scales since they have alternative effects.
What really saddens me is the scepter dps output. I like running scepters and I wish it put out more damage.
Good info, thanks.
And this is why I love the Flame Axe. Surprisingly good DPS at mid range, to cover for Dagger.
What really saddens me is the scepter dps output. I like running scepters and I wish it put out more damage.
That’s in no small part due to the fact that he uses no condition damage. If he would have, the damage would have been a lot higher. Of course, that would mean you would probably have to regear, lose some power etc. so it would be hard to compare.
However, the main advantage of the scepter auto attacks is that they benefit from might twice. So might stacking on the scepter will actually be a lot more effective than it will on dagger or staff (considering these auto attacks of course).
That should allow the scepter to catch up as it were.
If you can read this then it is proof that ArenaNet’s moderators just, kind and fair.
Things to note
- Scepter’s Air auto-attack is actually incomplete, the #2 skill must be used in conjunction with auto-attack to achieve maximum DPS
- Conjured Weapons perform much better than Scepter or Staff, but they’re a tad worse than Dagger.
I’m confused about this bit… if the whole test was simply determining which auto attacks kill faster the first point seems to fit if you swap any weapon for the word ‘scepter’. Comparing auto attacks is an incomplete test so of course air on scepter will not achieve maximum DPS.
And Why are the conjured weapons placed as they are? Conjured weapons perform 5 skills whereas scepter/dagger/staff perform 20 skills. If you want to compare how conjures are DPS wise you should compare all their DPS ability to all of the DPS ability of any other weapon. Summizing that conjures perform better or worse than any of the other weapons when you don’t have any of the flexibility those others offer seems like your plan to to beat the game using only the #1 skill.
You know why there are posts with combo chains that can maximize your DPS? Because maximizing your DPS can only be achieved when NOT relying on the auto-attack for DPS. It’s nice to know the base damage that auto-attacks can do but spending any time drawing conclusions based on Auto-attacks isn’t going to win you any battles, learn your other skills.
Agreed with the poster above me. Also, testing at 0 condition damage and high power makes the scepter look very poor, while with high condition damage and 0 power the opposite would be true. So a note should be added for that at least.
100 condition damage would increase the scepter’s fire auto attack by 50 damage for example.
If you can read this then it is proof that ArenaNet’s moderators just, kind and fair.
100 condition damage would increase the scepter’s fire auto attack by 50 damage for example.
100 Condition damage = +25 damage per second for the Scepter’s auto attack (burning) and since you can keep burning on a target forever with that attack it’s a constant armor-ignoring +25 damage
Things to note
- Scepter’s Air auto-attack is actually incomplete, the #2 skill must be used in conjunction with auto-attack to achieve maximum DPS
- Conjured Weapons perform much better than Scepter or Staff, but they’re a tad worse than Dagger.
I’m confused about this bit… if the whole test was simply determining which auto attacks kill faster the first point seems to fit if you swap any weapon for the word ‘scepter’. Comparing auto attacks is an incomplete test so of course air on scepter will not achieve maximum DPS.
And Why are the conjured weapons placed as they are? Conjured weapons perform 5 skills whereas scepter/dagger/staff perform 20 skills. If you want to compare how conjures are DPS wise you should compare all their DPS ability to all of the DPS ability of any other weapon. Summizing that conjures perform better or worse than any of the other weapons when you don’t have any of the flexibility those others offer seems like your plan to to beat the game using only the #1 skill.
You know why there are posts with combo chains that can maximize your DPS? Because maximizing your DPS can only be achieved when NOT relying on the auto-attack for DPS. It’s nice to know the base damage that auto-attacks can do but spending any time drawing conclusions based on Auto-attacks isn’t going to win you any battles, learn your other skills.
conjures do not “replace” these 20 skills. the replace 5 just like swapping atunments does.
you dont have access to 20 weapon skills at any one time on the ele.
you have 5.
You can actually swap to a conjure and back to weapon skills faster than you can back and forth between elements.
To compare all of the weapon skills the test would be much larger and still incomplete.
Youd have to compare play styles and builds not just individual skills.
The base line in the test has to be done. its science.
now you can branch off and compare what adding condition damage and might does in comparison to the base line.
Ideally these tests should not show that one is better than the other. Just the base line facts.
The tests are fine. the conclusion may be a little off.
100 Condition damage = +25 damage per second for the Scepter’s auto attack (burning) and since you can keep burning on a target forever with that attack it’s a constant armor-ignoring +25 damage
Yes, and it causes 2 seconds of burning, so in effect it adds 50 damage to the attack as a whole.
If you can read this then it is proof that ArenaNet’s moderators just, kind and fair.
100 Condition damage = +25 damage per second for the Scepter’s auto attack (burning) and since you can keep burning on a target forever with that attack it’s a constant armor-ignoring +25 damage
Yes, and it causes 2 seconds of burning, so in effect it adds 50 damage to the attack as a whole.
You are right, Scepter1 attack is so slow (slower than 2 seconds) that you actually deal 2 seconds of burning damage. I saw on wiki it is a 1 1/4 attack speed (faster than 2 seconds) but there is also an aftercast delay, I don’t know how long)
(edited by maddoctor.2738)
@omgwtflolbbl
That all sounds amazing! I’d love to see the numbers when you get your other computer running.
I’m confused about this bit… if the whole test was simply determining which auto attacks kill faster the first point seems to fit if you swap any weapon for the word ‘scepter’. Comparing auto attacks is an incomplete test so of course air on scepter will not achieve maximum DPS.
And Why are the conjured weapons placed as they are? Conjured weapons perform 5 skills whereas scepter/dagger/staff perform 20 skills. If you want to compare how conjures are DPS wise you should compare all their DPS ability to all of the DPS ability of any other weapon. Summizing that conjures perform better or worse than any of the other weapons when you don’t have any of the flexibility those others offer seems like your plan to to beat the game using only the #1 skill.
You know why there are posts with combo chains that can maximize your DPS? Because maximizing your DPS can only be achieved when NOT relying on the auto-attack for DPS. It’s nice to know the base damage that auto-attacks can do but spending any time drawing conclusions based on Auto-attacks isn’t going to win you any battles, learn your other skills.
What I was pointing out with Scepter’s Air auto-attack is that it gave a sub-par performance (considering I was using power/crit) but when the #2 skill is integrated, the damage was more in line with what I expected.
As I was only comparing auto-attack, I limited my conclusions to auto-attack damage; I wanted to expand my data, but comparing DPS rotations just had way too many variables for my taste. And yes, Conjures are limiting in a sense, which is why many people (myself included) find them unattractive despite their high damage output.
There seems to be a fair bit of discussion about how condition damage effects these skills, so I’ll try to get baseline data for a condition build. Until then, it’s really inappropriate to compare condition-based skills with direct damage skills in a rigid sense (as much as I want to).
I’m confused about this bit… if the whole test was simply determining which auto attacks kill faster the first point seems to fit if you swap any weapon for the word ‘scepter’. Comparing auto attacks is an incomplete test so of course air on scepter will not achieve maximum DPS.
The point is that Scepter Air’s #1 and #2 are unique in that using #2 will not interrupt #1’s channel. The auto-attack sucks exactly because the #2 and #3 skills can be used without interrupting it.