Guild Wars 2

Currently, one of, if not the most used build for Elementalists rely on Arcana 30.
The build is the 0/10/0/30/30, with very few variations. It gives us strong bunkering stats and is probably the top build for PvP and any sort of competitive play.

I’d like to be able to spend on other lines and have other builds to choose from, giving me some build variety so I don’t feel pigeon-holed into the same build forever.

So, first my analysis of the *why*s.

Why is the Arcana tree so important for competitive play?
For survivability. Elementalists play with the lowest health and armor, but probably highest control, and Arcana improves our survivability in many ways:

1. Evasive Arcana
It’s not a ground breaking trait except for the Water effect. It’s a 1600+ AoE healing and condition cleansing. Can be used every 10 seconds, which pairs nicely with the 9 seconds attunement CD with 30 points in Arcana.

2. Elemental Attunement
Provides 5 seconds of Protection when changing to Earth, and Regeneration when changing to Water. If you count a minimum CD of 10 seconds to change between attunements, this potentially gives 50% uptime on Protection and Regeneration.

3. Final Shielding or Renewing Stamina
Increases survivability in minor scale compared to the above.

4. Attunement Recharge
From 15 seconds to 9 with 30 points in Arcana. This by itself isn’t a big deal either, but paired with the Water’s Master Minor Trait Healing Ripple, this allows for an extra 1600+ AoE healing every 9 seconds.

So let’s sum it all up and see what sort of boons an Arcana Elementalist have just by spending 30 points in Arcana:
- Up to 50% uptime of Protection
- Up to 50% uptime of Regeneration
- 1 Cleansing Wave every 10 seconds
- 1 Healing Ripple every 9 seconds

Eh… I’m not really surprised that Elementalists are regarded as very strong bunkers.
Assuming Eles are in a good position in PvP (which I won’t discuss), this means this is the requirement for us to maintain this spot.

How can we achieve build diversity then?
By giving the same stats above to Elementalists, but not tying them to the Arcana tree.

An example is by changing Elemental Attunement to be a baseline skill of some sort (something like a buff when changing attunements) so any build will have it, and changing the trait to be something else that doesn’t increase survivability even further. Like the buff being caster-only and the trait making it affect all allies for example.

Reducing the attunement recharge rate and changing the Arcana trait to maybe give more bonus points depending on the attunement, or improving the effects of the attunes would fix the “need” of the 9 seconds Healing Ripple.

This would only leave the Arcana line with the additional Cleansing Wave from Evasive Arcana, and this would improve other builds’ survivability making it more viable for PvP.
Some number crunching would be needed so we don’t have high damage builds with the survivability of the Arcana/Water bunker one.

I hope the designer in charge think about it, I’m kinda tired of being locked to 30 points in Arcana for PvP matches…

Any other ideas on how to balance this?

Speaking as one who plays a glassy build, Attunement Recharge Rate is absolutely the top reason I take points in arcana; I also really want traits like Elemental Attunement and Renewing Stamina, of course, and boon duration is nice, but being locked out of skills when I need them pretty much means death.

Improve the other trait lines to be less terrible, make Elemental Attunement part of the base profession mechanic, reduce the base Attunement recharge to 12 seconds, and change the bonus from Arcana to give only -1% cooldown per point. That’d be a good start.

Arcana is impossible to not use in any builds. Arcane shielding,evasive arcana is a life saver with attunement and air 10 aura zeph boon because with long boon duration , things are really fun. 0/10/0/30/30 is really the only viable trait in ele.

Chaosky.5276:

Speaking as one who plays a glassy build, Attunement Recharge Rate is absolutely the top reason I take points in arcana; I also really want traits like Elemental Attunement and Renewing Stamina, of course, and boon duration is nice, but being locked out of skills when I need them pretty much means death.

Pretty much this. I can personally do without elemental attunement and renewing stamina. I’d love to make a glassy build without arcane that doesn’t rely on hiding behind a wall of guardians or hitting ridiculous amounts of damage with lightning strike that isn’t possible in spvp.

All you need is 10 in arcana for any of the other successful builds. Putting more than that only reduces your damage significantly and makes you more bunker. and yes there are other great builds but they are not as easy to master as the 0/10/0/30/30 is. That’s why you won’t see many running them.

I got 0 points in arcana and I can still survive alot longer than other classes and players that I play with. I used to have 30 points there, but I put them into fire instead, works better for me.

There is no need to base all your builds on arcana.

can’t imagine playing an elementalist with 15s attunement swaps, sorry
that’s the whole reason people go 30 into arcana (that, and evasive arcana :p)

Vaugh.7193:

I got 0 points in arcana and I can still survive alot longer than other classes and players that I play with. I used to have 30 points there, but I put them into fire instead, works better for me.

There is no need to base all your builds on arcana.

When you speak about surviving a lot longer than other classes and players, in what context are you speaking? PvE? s/tPvP? in WvW? small group skirmish? or large group battles?

LightningBlaze.4913:

All you need is 10 in arcana for any of the other successful builds. Putting more than that only reduces your damage significantly and makes you more bunker. and yes there are other great builds but they are not as easy to master as the 0/10/0/30/30 is. That’s why you won’t see many running them.

I don’t find the damage you lose to be significant tbh unless you take all the damage multipliers and build a ton of crit damage due to the way the multipliers work. It’s far more effective in wvw where you can build enough crit damage to hit lower armored targets for 4k lightning strikes easily. I see only 2 traits in air (in addition to extra precision and crit damage) that are worth giving up arcane for: bolt to the heart, and air training. Fire is mostly terrible. Unless you successfully burst down your target, you won’t be alive for very long after your initial attempt unless you’re exceptionally skilled at reading and countering your opponent. I’m usually not or I’m already trying to gtfo. And of course, dead eles and running-away eles do no damage.

Asurmir.7956:

Vaugh.7193:

I got 0 points in arcana and I can still survive alot longer than other classes and players that I play with. I used to have 30 points there, but I put them into fire instead, works better for me.

There is no need to base all your builds on arcana.

When you speak about surviving a lot longer than other classes and players, in what context are you speaking? PvE? s/tPvP? in WvW? small group skirmish? or large group battles?

Also what weapon? Are you in melee range with daggers and possibly a scepter, or at 1200 range with a staff? I know with a staff in most areas, I’d survive longer by virtue of the fact that I’m not even in the enemy’s range.

Adastra.9821:

Asurmir.7956:

Vaugh.7193:

I got 0 points in arcana and I can still survive alot longer than other classes and players that I play with. I used to have 30 points there, but I put them into fire instead, works better for me.

There is no need to base all your builds on arcana.

When you speak about surviving a lot longer than other classes and players, in what context are you speaking? PvE? s/tPvP? in WvW? small group skirmish? or large group battles?

Also what weapon? Are you in melee range with daggers and possibly a scepter, or at 1200 range with a staff? I know with a staff in most areas, I’d survive longer by virtue of the fact that I’m not even in the enemy’s range.

Im using staff. And Im talking all aspects of the game, only troubles I have is with 1vs1 with skilled mesmers and thieves.

So much agreement with this thread. Getting rid of Renewing Stamina, giving us an equivalent to other professions’ vigor minor traits as our first minor in Air (Because who in their right mind wants Zephyr’s Speed?), lowering the base attunement cooldown to 9 seconds and changing Arcana’s ‘unique’ bonus to something else… If that was done, it’d be a hell of a nice start for build variety.

Fixing the terrible mess that are our offensive trait lines would be a pretty nice start too.

I’ve noticed something that I would consider peculiar: In GW1, elementalists basically had to have some points in their primary attribute (energy storage) if they wanted to use their profession skills in a non-farm setting, and in GW2, elementalists have to have points in their primary trait because that reduces cooldowns of our attunements.

Some things don’t change much over time, right?

Well,I can tell you. I spend almost all my time on my Ele min maxing Ect and a build ive done is amazing

0-20-20-10-20. It gives me bolt to the heart and air cool down. In earth I have the earth shield and earth cool down.in water I have cant rips give regen and vigor.and in arcana I have the buff on attunement and the arcane shield.

My 7-8-9 are mist-arcane shield-teleport. And my armor is zerker w beryl gems and my trinkets are exotic cav with beryl jewels.

This build gives me a plethora of things . Buffed…1800toughness,3200 attack,15khp,38% crit plus fury is always up so that 58% and 110% crit damage.

This build is amazing for wvw and I’ve never seen anyone else with it. I have a ton of survivability .i hit hard and with all my toughness when I do get hit its not for much.

Y’all let me know what you think of this build….I’m S/D by the way.

hyjaxxx.1584:

Well,I can tell you. I spend almost all my time on my Ele min maxing Ect and a build ive done is amazing

0-20-20-10-20. It gives me bolt to the heart and air cool down. In earth I have the earth shield and earth cool down.in water I have cant rips give regen and vigor.and in arcana I have the buff on attunement and the arcane shield.

My 7-8-9 are mist-arcane shield-teleport. And my armor is zerker w beryl gems and my trinkets are exotic cav with beryl jewels.

This build gives me a plethora of things . Buffed…1800toughness,3200 attack,15khp,38% crit plus fury is always up so that 58% and 110% crit damage.

This build is amazing for wvw and I’ve never seen anyone else with it. I have a ton of survivability .i hit hard and with all my toughness when I do get hit its not for much.

Y’all let me know what you think of this build….I’m S/D by the way.

Yeah now try balance that build for sPvP…

Swim.6830:

hyjaxxx.1584:

Well,I can tell you. I spend almost all my time on my Ele min maxing Ect and a build ive done is amazing

0-20-20-10-20. It gives me bolt to the heart and air cool down. In earth I have the earth shield and earth cool down.in water I have cant rips give regen and vigor.and in arcana I have the buff on attunement and the arcane shield.

My 7-8-9 are mist-arcane shield-teleport. And my armor is zerker w beryl gems and my trinkets are exotic cav with beryl jewels.

This build gives me a plethora of things . Buffed…1800toughness,3200 attack,15khp,38% crit plus fury is always up so that 58% and 110% crit damage.

This build is amazing for wvw and I’ve never seen anyone else with it. I have a ton of survivability .i hit hard and with all my toughness when I do get hit its not for much.

Y’all let me know what you think of this build….I’m S/D by the way.

Yeah now try balance that build for sPvP…

Well,I don’t spvp. I’m fairly hard core with the wvw. And I dabble in pve.

I can tell you that for s/d eles people are hard pressed to find a better build then what I’ve got here. I really enjoy it.

I would like to quickly mention that a lot of classes invest heavily into their Class-specific trait.

To be honest, this makes sense and I don’t see it as much of a problem. The unique class mechanics are, understandably, very powerful and defining.

I’d go as far as:

1) Remove Attunement Recharge Rate. Make the profession stat extend lingering elements (with buffs to the minor adept traits in air/fire/earth), or grant bonuses based on attunement.
2) Attach the current max attunement recharge rate to the “[Attunement] skills recharge 20% faster” traits, e.g. “Fire skills recharge 20% faster. Fire Attunement recharges 6 seconds faster.”

Tiresias.6473:

I would like to quickly mention that a lot of classes invest heavily into their Class-specific trait.

To be honest, this makes sense and I don’t see it as much of a problem. The unique class mechanics are, understandably, very powerful and defining.

I just want to have more than 1 viable build, like Mesmers, Engineers and some other professions have.
Anything not 0/10/0/30/30 is subperforming in PvP and 1v1s~5v5s anywhere.

Guardians, Engineers (1 build), Mesmers (1 build) and Thieves that I know of don’t invest heavily in the profession trait line for the meta.
Rangers if I recall correctly also have a strong build not based on BM. So if those are still true, that’s at least 5 out of 8… so 3 out 8 is kinda different from my definition of “lot of classes”.

Danicco.3568:

Tiresias.6473:

I would like to quickly mention that a lot of classes invest heavily into their Class-specific trait.

To be honest, this makes sense and I don’t see it as much of a problem. The unique class mechanics are, understandably, very powerful and defining.

I just want to have more than 1 viable build, like Mesmers, Engineers and some other professions have.
Anything not 0/10/0/30/30 is subperforming in PvP and 1v1s~5v5s anywhere.

Guardians, Engineers (1 build), Mesmers (1 build) and Thieves that I know of don’t invest heavily in the profession trait line for the meta.
Rangers if I recall correctly also have a strong build not based on BM. So if those are still true, that’s at least 5 out of 8… so 3 out 8 is kinda different from my definition of “lot of classes”.

Warriors don’t normally spec heavily into their profession trait line unless they are going for specific traits. So that makes 2 out of 8 by your definition, 3 out of 8 for mine, as I consider BM to be borderline mandatory on a Ranger.

LightningBlaze.4913:

Those that consider reduced attunement recharge rate is a complete must, are usually players that spam buttons without paying attention at anything else coming from your opponent. Those that are perfectly fine with 0 in arcana in pvp pay more attention in combat and never run out of useful skills to use while waiting for attunement to recharge. Again the easy mode will always be taken as a must.

I really disagree with you here. Given the nature of our class (having a lot of long-cooldown spells, but with a lot of variety), having access to the right tool at the right time is an absolute must. Having a 15s recharge rate means that switching out water locks you out of effective healing for 15s. Switching out of fire means your damage just got a whole lot worse for 15s, and if you need to lay on some burst – good luck. Switching out of earth means that your don’t have access to your cripples/slows/immobilize. Switching out of air… well that could have a 15s cooldown b/c so many of the abilities are on such a long cooldown or aren’t all that useful. The point is, its not about spamming skills, its about having access to the right skills at the right time. If you are just sitting in one attunement auto-attacking (which is very weak for us), you aren’t using the right skills.

LightningBlaze.4913:

Those that consider reduced attunement recharge rate is a complete must, are usually players that spam buttons without paying attention at anything else coming from your opponent. Those that are perfectly fine with 0 in arcana in pvp pay more attention in combat and never run out of useful skills to use while waiting for attunement to recharge. Again the easy mode will always be taken as a must.

And when you lose to another player that takes 30 in arcane, do you say that he was just spamming buttons and has no skill?

Come off the high horse for a moment and reason with me. Players that say it is a must to take 30 in arcane usually play with a different rhythm than those who take 20, 10, or none at all. There is no actual hierarchy between the groups, just a different play-style. We all have 70 traits to spend. If you are not spending 30 in arcane, then you are spending it some where else. In other words, you have something that other players miss out on. Something to augment the higher cool down on your attunement swapping that works for your play-style.

I like to use duels as a way to test myself for tourneys. I find that if you can’t take care of yourself in a 1v1 fight, then you’re more likely to be the weakest link on your team. I’ve attempted to play with 0 in arcane, and just didn’t feel right for me. It didn’t feel like a smooth transition from element to element. That is just me, though, and I’m sure others have found success with the base cd. (I’ve yet to see evidence of this, but I am still hopeful for a video.)
Some time ago, I posted that a lower base cool down would help with creating build diversity—something like 12 1/2 seconds. I find that that is a more reasonable recharge than 15.

LightningBlaze.4913:

If you mean a build where you won’t have bad consequences for your mistakes and still be able to win while being unable to read and outplay your opponent/s… yep there’s only one viable and it sub-similar ones.

Very well said, this means you acknowledge that this build allows for such kind of play.

This also means that, if you have a player who’s using this build and outplaying you, you won’t even get that Elementalist lower than 50%.

basically without sufficient recharge rate of attunements your gunna get screwed. It feels like the elementalist was balanced around having 15-30 points in arcane because without having your tools at hand your gunna get man handled by every other class. They don’t have a lot of high damage skills and don’t have a lot of individually strong skills, it’s only when combining all of the attunements you get max performance, so when you take 3 other trait lines and none are arcane your gunna get screwed because you won’t have the necessary skills available when necessary making whatever traits you picked most likely not as good as they seem.

I personally feel like the attunment recharge should be a fixed time and arcane shouldn’t increase recharge rate and instead do something else idk. But without a higher than base recharge rate you’re not going to be as competitive as other builds unless you’re running a conjure build, and those are weaker in all regards but are fun.

LightningBlaze.4913:

If you mean a build where you won’t have bad consequences for your mistakes and still be able to win while being unable to read and outplay your opponent/s… yep there’s only one viable and it sub-similar ones.

Ugh enough already with the condescension. Its perfectly obvious that with any profession, there will be good builds and bad builds.

If you’re a bad player with a good build, you’ll be mediocre. A good player will take that same build and excel with it. Plenty of Ele players out there using the standard Water/Arcana bunker build routinely get thrashed in WvWvW, there is no such thing as a safety net with a profession hamstrung by low health and armor.

Point is, the interplay of traits and stats makes the x/10/x/30/30 build one of, if not the strongest Ele build out there, running anything less makes the character unoptimized. Your argument, using the same logic, would apply the smugness to players using all exotics thrashing players using all fine weapons. You CAN choose to run less than perfect gear and stats, but why would you, especially in a competitive environment?