Guild Wars 2

Ok guys, it’s time to make your choice, it does not matter if you’re a PvPer, a WvWer or PvEr, if you like to play this profession, then do please find the time to answer this simple Poll.

The profession is on the brink of being nerfed the ground again, maybe I’m being overly passionate, paranoid if you want, but if you like me, you played the profession after April 2013 patch, I’m sure that you don’t want to go back to that same dark place.

The situation now is quite dire , the April 2014 patch introduced a revamped celestial amulet, it allows teams to stack eles and become a force to be reckoned with.

The innate boon application of the ele, allows a player to overcome all the deficiencies of the amulet, the player now is good in direct dmg, condi dmg and support/bunkering while having above average HP levels; now stacking eles that can cover all areas of teamplay becomes possible.

If you think about it, there was no Abjured before April 2014.

Other amulets can keep the ele in competition while not making the stacking of this profession, so beneficial as with celestial amulet, so the question i :

Would you rather see the profession nerfed around a single amulet, so that nothing ele but celestial ele work..or would you rather nerf/tweak celestial amulet so that stacking eles won’t be so beneficial anymore?

Let the Devs what you think

http://www.poll-maker.com/poll252918x96204193-10

Cheers!

I would like to see a 3rd option, which is “neither the Celestial Amulet or the general Elementalist profession is the problem”.

Let me explain why I think so:
>> Nerfing the profession will make other builds that do not run Cantrips even more obsolete than they are now and running them even more “required” (other set-ups with Glyphs or Signets or even Arcane skills have not the trait synergies they need to be more popular)
>> Celestial benefits other more hybrid orientated classes like Engis as well. Having some hybrid option allows you to have more roles and tactics on the fly and you are not locked in the path of a one-trick-pony. Diversity should be encouraged to makes fights less predictable.
>> Might stacks are a huge part of the Ele’s strength because we have a good access to Fire Fields and Blast finishers. That contributes to a large amount of strong Ele game play. They have started to adjust might stacking and Sigil of Battle already. If we see some duration nerfs to rune sets like Strength or Hoelbrak, we might have a better option too keep “OP Eles” in line.

Just my 2cts.

I agree with Gorani. The problem is not the amulet or the profession, Anet already hit might with the nerf bat. I’m betting it was to see the difference in the might damage pre and post nerf. I’m expecting a more evenhanded nerf that will leave Cele a place in pvp still.

The amulet is fine. It is not even viable for most classes. The problem is clearly engi + d/d ele. War is close to be balanced since it took the biggest punch from the might nerf+ addrenaline nerf. \

Would you rather see a nerf to the op builds or nerf the amulet so no other class other than ele/engi/war can use it?

The way it is, probably some traits would get nerfed. Skills already are. But that would be it. The current game play has already slowly shifted to Zerker. I wouldn’t be surprised when zerker becomes the next meta.

xDudisx.5914:

The amulet is fine. It is not even viable for most classes. The problem is clearly engi + d/d ele. War is close to be balanced since it took the biggest punch from the might nerf+ addrenaline nerf. \

Would you rather see a nerf to the op builds or nerf the amulet so no other class other than ele/engi/war can use it?

D/D is the only build atm that can 1vs1 reliably against any build while maintaining a supportive role, a staff ele meta uses the same trait set up of a D/D ..still there are no complaints about staff build, chances are what really irks people is the fact they lose 1vs1 to an ele and they want that changed, a simplistic view but I believe it to be mostly true

Iris Ng.9845:

The way it is, probably some traits would get nerfed. Skills already are. But that would be it. The current game play has already slowly shifted to Zerker. I wouldn’t be surprised when zerker becomes the next meta.

As I have stated above, a staff build uses the same trait set up of a d/d ele ( a single trait is different..maximum 2), but there are no complaints about staff why is it? Ask yourself this. What most people want to remove is the ability of ele to 1vs1 reliably and in a fair way, at most they will “propose” a fresh air build which we both know is by far inferior to all current zerker meta at equal skill level so there you go

Frankly, I would rather see this class utterly suck and have some build diversity than remain any longer with one single dominant build.

You guys are kidding right?

How about no nerfs? The reason the profession is strong with Celestial as said is the amount and speed of boon application and sustain.

In terms of the overall game design this is paper armor though, and in the past the Ele was not so strong especially once more active boonstrips were introduced (such as Thief Sword).

The problem isn’t so much the profession or the amulet, but Conquest capture and hold design. Its why bunkers and decaps are meta, as are any builds that are designed for attrition style gameplay and fast movement, rather than burst style assassination.

If you want to fix PvP, and make it more interesting for a wider variety of builds, then you have to have more point generating mechanics. For example, if there were a center point on each map that could be “capped” via damage being done to it, instantly winning the match, then players would build zerk to zerg rush it and win quickly.

Then counters could be built, such as a CC character that would throw up reflects and absorbs, or pushes and pulls to keep teams off the point while the rest of their team kills the other team. With a risk of loss not due to attrition, players would build characters to kill the opposing team, rather than sit on a point.

So as you see, the real problem isn’t the Ele or Celestial’s strengths (and weaknesses), its the poor design of PvP.

Kaleban.9834:

You guys are kidding right?

How about no nerfs? The reason the profession is strong with Celestial as said is the amount and speed of boon application and sustain.

In terms of the overall game design this is paper armor though, and in the past the Ele was not so strong especially once more active boonstrips were introduced (such as Thief Sword).

The problem isn’t so much the profession or the amulet, but Conquest capture and hold design. Its why bunkers and decaps are meta, as are any builds that are designed for attrition style gameplay and fast movement, rather than burst style assassination.

If you want to fix PvP, and make it more interesting for a wider variety of builds, then you have to have more point generating mechanics. For example, if there were a center point on each map that could be “capped” via damage being done to it, instantly winning the match, then players would build zerk to zerg rush it and win quickly.

Then counters could be built, such as a CC character that would throw up reflects and absorbs, or pushes and pulls to keep teams off the point while the rest of their team kills the other team. With a risk of loss not due to attrition, players would build characters to kill the opposing team, rather than sit on a point.

So as you see, the real problem isn’t the Ele or Celestial’s strengths (and weaknesses), its the poor design of PvP.

i hope the devs read your post!
i dont like to see the ele nerfed in pve/wvw because of the broken pvp..

How about, let the Elementalist feel like the dominant strong class for once, in its entire misserable lifespan? lol

Elementalist has WAYYYY Too low HP, yes its a cloth class, but that doesn’t justify having 16k HP while having THIS kind of damage in PvP, if we can attain something alike 25k HP, while retaining all our current tankyness and damage, then i would consider the class way more balanced than ever.

Lawful.5314:

How about, let the Elementalist feel like the dominant strong class for once, in its entire misserable lifespan? lol

Elementalist has WAYYYY Too low HP, yes its a cloth class, but that doesn’t justify having 16k HP while having THIS kind of damage in PvP, if we can attain something alike 25k HP, while retaining all our current tankyness and damage, then i would consider the class way more balanced than ever.

Lol @ the dominant for once…..

Could we please get some evidence for these wild assumptions you just stated here.

The amulet has nothing to do with the player’s skill playing the Ele. So they might as well nerf it.
There are actually other viable builds usable in PvP. D/D is so outdated….

I also don’t get the idea of some people. PvP requires group play. Playing as a team is fundamental.
So if you’re struggeling at defending a point a team member should come to your aid.
But…standing around, jumping into suicide, thinking of being able to defend a point – however you can’t, is just – stupid.

Also there are so many options. Especially the position you’re standing in.

Just move on and live with it. We also survived the fgs nerf.

jportell.2197:

Lawful.5314:

How about, let the Elementalist feel like the dominant strong class for once, in its entire misserable lifespan? lol

Elementalist has WAYYYY Too low HP, yes its a cloth class, but that doesn’t justify having 16k HP while having THIS kind of damage in PvP, if we can attain something alike 25k HP, while retaining all our current tankyness and damage, then i would consider the class way more balanced than ever.

Lol @ the dominant for once…..

What? being able to just barely overheal the damage from two nabs, while holding a point, while not being able to kill either of them, doesn’t count as being very fun to play or dominant in my book.

Lawful.5314:

What? being able to just barely overheal the damage from two nabs, while holding a point, while not being able to kill either of them, doesn’t count as being very fun to play or dominant in my book.

People are still kitten from way back when a specific few Eles were showing their skills trolling in WvW on the Youtubes.

Mind you, they weren’t actually KILLING anyone, just simply bouncing around and stalling enemies.

Then the QQstorm started, and hasn’t stopped to this day, mostly from people who main Mesmers and Warriors and disliked not getting their free kills anymore.

Lawful.5314:

jportell.2197:

Lawful.5314:

How about, let the Elementalist feel like the dominant strong class for once, in its entire misserable lifespan? lol

Elementalist has WAYYYY Too low HP, yes its a cloth class, but that doesn’t justify having 16k HP while having THIS kind of damage in PvP, if we can attain something alike 25k HP, while retaining all our current tankyness and damage, then i would consider the class way more balanced than ever.

Lol @ the dominant for once…..

What? being able to just barely overheal the damage from two nabs, while holding a point, while not being able to kill either of them, doesn’t count as being very fun to play or dominant in my book.

You cmearly didnt play pvp in late 2012/early 2013. D/d cleric bunker eles were rushing far and holding the point 1v3 while never dying and if they got low they just rtld off point and healed to full. Now instead of a cleric amulet doing no damage. Its a celestial with nearly the same healing and more might plus more evade up time. Oh yes d/d eles were very dominant before.

jportell.2197:

Lawful.5314:

jportell.2197:

Lawful.5314:

How about, let the Elementalist feel like the dominant strong class for once, in its entire misserable lifespan? lol

Elementalist has WAYYYY Too low HP, yes its a cloth class, but that doesn’t justify having 16k HP while having THIS kind of damage in PvP, if we can attain something alike 25k HP, while retaining all our current tankyness and damage, then i would consider the class way more balanced than ever.

Lol @ the dominant for once…..

What? being able to just barely overheal the damage from two nabs, while holding a point, while not being able to kill either of them, doesn’t count as being very fun to play or dominant in my book.

You cmearly didnt play pvp in late 2012/early 2013. D/d cleric bunker eles were rushing far and holding the point 1v3 while never dying and if they got low they just rtld off point and healed to full. Now instead of a cleric amulet doing no damage. Its a celestial with nearly the same healing and more might plus more evade up time. Oh yes d/d eles were very dominant before.

Early 2013 was when the game got released, i started playing back in early 2014, late 2013 maybe, when elementalist was the the garbage of GW2 in PvP.

Kaleban.9834:

People are still kitten from way back when a specific few Eles were showing their skills trolling in WvW on the Youtubes.

Mind you, they weren’t actually KILLING anyone, just simply bouncing around and stalling enemies.

Then the QQstorm started, and hasn’t stopped to this day, mostly from people who main Mesmers and Warriors and disliked not getting their free kills anymore.

Exactly the problem, people can’t get a “free kill” off elementalist D/D cele anymore and they tryhard until they die, then they scream OP.

And whats worse is that 80% of the elementalist forums are blinded as hell, and they think that elementalist is actually super good at the moment in PvP, like has damage and everything and the only argument they bring up is: Well you need to learn to play, then its the best!

But its not, its far from the best and the people that make it look strong, are the R80 PvP rank Ele’s that have been playing the game since forever and they put a lot of time into their play, which is like 1% of the elementalist playerbase, maybe even less.

I’ve seen a couple of Guardians, Warriors and Mesmers that are the 1% of mesmer/warrior/guardian playerbase that know their class extremely well, and i’ll tell you that it wasn’t even funny, they just steamroll. We literally had to 4-5 man kill those exceptional warriors and guardians and even then not always succesful.

jportell.2197:

You cmearly didnt play pvp in late 2012/early 2013. D/d cleric bunker eles were rushing far and holding the point 1v3 while never dying and if they got low they just rtld off point and healed to full. Now instead of a cleric amulet doing no damage. Its a celestial with nearly the same healing and more might plus more evade up time. Oh yes d/d eles were very dominant before.

So let me get this straight. In your mind, a class that sacrifices all damage to go “bunker” wearing a cleric amulet guaranteeing abysmal damage and overall designed to rush a point and hold it while their team catches up, shouldn’t be able to and should just succumb to defeat in a 1v1?

Then explain what the point of the cleric amulet is, much less capture and hold point mechanics, and why other professions designed to bunker and hold aren’t subjected to as much vilification as the Elementalist? Why is a Guardian or Engineer designed to bunker “working as intended” but an Elementalist doing the EXACT SAME THING is now OP? Keep in mind that both the Guard and Engy likely are both more survivable and capable of dishing out more damage with a greater margin for error than a comparable Ele.

Its pretty clear to me that you don’t play PvP, or don’t understand the mechanics behind it. There has never been an Elepocalypse dominating PvP, there have been good, organized teams showcasing the Ele’s ability in top tier play, but these are the 1% of the 1%. The Ele has never had the PvP pug-ability of the HS Thief or PU Mesmers, and people that say otherwise just want to keep their free, easy kills.

Kaleban.9834:

Then explain what the point of the cleric amulet is, much less capture and hold point mechanics, and why other professions designed to bunker and hold aren’t subjected to as much vilification as the Elementalist? Why is a Guardian or Engineer designed to bunker “working as intended” but an Elementalist doing the EXACT SAME THING is now OP? Keep in mind that both the Guard and Engy likely are both more survivable and capable of dishing out more damage with a greater margin for error than a comparable Ele.

Its pretty clear to me that you don’t play PvP, or don’t understand the mechanics behind it. There has never been an Elepocalypse dominating PvP, there have been good, organized teams showcasing the Ele’s ability in top tier play, but these are the 1% of the 1%. The Ele has never had the PvP pug-ability of the HS Thief or PU Mesmers, and people that say otherwise just want to keep their free, easy kills.

People are like that Keleban, it takes a while for people to get used to change.
They are just too used that elementalist for the longest time, was a walking free kill for almost anyone.

And at some point, it even became the norm that warriors have so much hp, defense and damage and its considered perfectly okay.

Personally i was blown away, after playing Elementalist for like, forever, i created a warrior a few days ago, literally randomly threw around traits and gear, then equiped a GS and Bow and steamrolled in sPvP like there was no tomorrow and we won by a huge margin with me being top in points.

After which i was like, wow, well that was a load of bullkitten, kay now back to elementalist.

Personally I think its a combination of things.

1: The ele is able to stack allot of might stacks. (this effectively counters the lower condi/power of celestial.

2: The ele has allot more incentive to swap attunement then allot of classes have incentive to weapon swap.

3: Several of the on swap & on crit sigils are a bit to powerful when used in conjunction with each other.

4: Celestial stats in Spvp are just a bit high.

This leads to things becoming a bit too powerful.

Personally I would reduce celestial stats just a bit, then reduce the duration of geomancy bleeds a bit, reduce doom sigil poison by 1 second, then finally make blasts on fire fields give 2 stacks of might instead of 3.

This reduces the effects of some certain builds slightly without destroying them or others.

Kaleban.9834:

jportell.2197:

You cmearly didnt play pvp in late 2012/early 2013. D/d cleric bunker eles were rushing far and holding the point 1v3 while never dying and if they got low they just rtld off point and healed to full. Now instead of a cleric amulet doing no damage. Its a celestial with nearly the same healing and more might plus more evade up time. Oh yes d/d eles were very dominant before.

So let me get this straight. In your mind, a class that sacrifices all damage to go “bunker” wearing a cleric amulet guaranteeing abysmal damage and overall designed to rush a point and hold it while their team catches up, shouldn’t be able to and should just succumb to defeat in a 1v1?

Then explain what the point of the cleric amulet is, much less capture and hold point mechanics, and why other professions designed to bunker and hold aren’t subjected to as much vilification as the Elementalist? Why is a Guardian or Engineer designed to bunker “working as intended” but an Elementalist doing the EXACT SAME THING is now OP? Keep in mind that both the Guard and Engy likely are both more survivable and capable of dishing out more damage with a greater margin for error than a comparable Ele.

Its pretty clear to me that you don’t play PvP, or don’t understand the mechanics behind it. There has never been an Elepocalypse dominating PvP, there have been good, organized teams showcasing the Ele’s ability in top tier play, but these are the 1% of the 1%. The Ele has never had the PvP pug-ability of the HS Thief or PU Mesmers, and people that say otherwise just want to keep their free, easy kills.

There actually was an elepocalypse. It’s called April 2014. The d/d bunker ele was annoying. But it could be outrotated and given enough time killed. The celestial can outsustain and still put out enough pressure to where you are running around trying to live.

Ragnar the Rock.3174:

Personally I think its a combination of things.

1: The ele is able to stack allot of might stacks. (this effectively counters the lower condi/power of celestial.

2: The ele has allot more incentive to swap attunement then allot of classes have incentive to weapon swap.

3: Several of the on swap & on crit sigils are a bit to powerful when used in conjunction with each other.

4: Celestial stats in Spvp are just a bit high.

This leads to things becoming a bit too powerful.

Personally I would reduce celestial stats just a bit, then reduce the duration of geomancy bleeds a bit, reduce doom sigil poison by 1 second, then finally make blasts on fire fields give 2 stacks of might instead of 3.

This reduces the effects of some certain builds slightly without destroying them or others.

It’s funny because all those 4 points apply to shoutbows in the same manner.

rotten.9753:

Ragnar the Rock.3174:

Personally I think its a combination of things.

1: The ele is able to stack allot of might stacks. (this effectively counters the lower condi/power of celestial.

2: The ele has allot more incentive to swap attunement then allot of classes have incentive to weapon swap.

3: Several of the on swap & on crit sigils are a bit to powerful when used in conjunction with each other.

4: Celestial stats in Spvp are just a bit high.

This leads to things becoming a bit too powerful.

Personally I would reduce celestial stats just a bit, then reduce the duration of geomancy bleeds a bit, reduce doom sigil poison by 1 second, then finally make blasts on fire fields give 2 stacks of might instead of 3.

This reduces the effects of some certain builds slightly without destroying them or others.

It’s funny because all those 4 points apply to shoutbows in the same manner.

Except shoutbows are wayy less likely to kill someone as fast as eles, and they still don’t match an eles condi clear overall.

jportell.2197:

quote]

Except shoutbows are wayy less likely to kill someone as fast as eles, and they still don’t match an eles condi clear overall.

Except that shoutbows actually converts conditions which is much stronger than simple clear.

Supreme.3164:

xDudisx.5914:

The amulet is fine. It is not even viable for most classes. The problem is clearly engi + d/d ele. War is close to be balanced since it took the biggest punch from the might nerf+ addrenaline nerf. \

Would you rather see a nerf to the op builds or nerf the amulet so no other class other than ele/engi/war can use it?

D/D is the only build atm that can 1vs1 reliably against any build while maintaining a supportive role, a staff ele meta uses the same trait set up of a D/D ..still there are no complaints about staff build, chances are what really irks people is the fact they lose 1vs1 to an ele and they want that changed, a simplistic view but I believe it to be mostly true

They don’t use all the same traits. Most staff users use blasting staff and earth embrace instead of renewing stamina and elemental shielding. It is possible to nerf those 2 traits or the dagger skills and solve the problem without hurting the balanced builds.

Staff is a balanced build. Focusing in group fights and in supportive role. And is not op in 1v1.

d/d in the other hand has almost the same support as staff and is nearly god mode in 1v1. With very few counters like a fearmancer. Also has more mobility than staff or scepter.

xDudisx.5914:

Staff is a balanced build. Focusing in group fights and in supportive role. And is not op in 1v1.

d/d in the other hand has almost the same support as staff and is nearly god mode in 1v1. With very few counters like a fearmancer. Also has more mobility than staff or scepter.

Then why people choose staff eles over d/d? Last eu esl had 50/50 proportions of staff and d/d eles.

I read the posts of this thread, because I was really looking for the reason why we should get a nerf.

The “we can do everything well” is irrelevant, since this is the class design.

So the issue comes mainly from 1v1 viability.

I must admit, I win the majority of my 1v1. But why? This is in no way related to the amulet: a tweaks in the numbers should only make fights closer, but I usually win by a large margin because I can use my ele assets efficiently. But most importantly: when ever I fight 1v1 I find that my opponents hardly understand what I am doing, they do not predict, they do not react, they are not interacting! In fact I rarely see an opponent actively trying to hinder my performance: they do not dodge efficiently, or at all. For instance, if I fight a warrior I know that I can at most eat one eviscerate in the beginning of the fight and then I would still win if I do everything else perfectly. More than a few mistakes and I am done. But the warrior will eat Burning Speed, Earthquake, Lightning Touch, etc. Most opponents do not actively try to counter us. I guess that they simply do not understand what we do.

The point is: maybe the problem comes from others. Just like the ele had a l2p problem for a long time, now other classes have a l2p problem against us.

But I could be wrong. If so, please enlighten me

xDudisx.5914:

Supreme.3164:

xDudisx.5914:

The amulet is fine. It is not even viable for most classes. The problem is clearly engi + d/d ele. War is close to be balanced since it took the biggest punch from the might nerf+ addrenaline nerf. \

Would you rather see a nerf to the op builds or nerf the amulet so no other class other than ele/engi/war can use it?

D/D is the only build atm that can 1vs1 reliably against any build while maintaining a supportive role, a staff ele meta uses the same trait set up of a D/D ..still there are no complaints about staff build, chances are what really irks people is the fact they lose 1vs1 to an ele and they want that changed, a simplistic view but I believe it to be mostly true

They don’t use all the same traits. Most staff users use blasting staff and earth embrace instead of renewing stamina and elemental shielding. It is possible to nerf those 2 traits or the dagger skills and solve the problem without hurting the balanced builds.

Staff is a balanced build. Focusing in group fights and in supportive role. And is not op in 1v1.

d/d in the other hand has almost the same support as staff and is nearly god mode in 1v1. With very few counters like a fearmancer. Also has more mobility than staff or scepter.

It has already been suggested to move renewing staming to adept minor and increase ICD to 10s and move elemental shielding to master trait, so dunno why you repeat yourserlf

The L2P argument never works in terms of game balance discussions. It just never has, and never will. I land Dragon Tooth all day long in SPvP. You can cry at the top of your lungs that’s a L2P issue for my opponents, and you won’t be incorrect, but no developer is going to openly take the stance “L2P scrubs.”

Kodiak.3281:

The L2P argument never works in terms of game balance discussions. It just never has, and never will. I land Dragon Tooth all day long in SPvP. You can cry at the top of your lungs that’s a L2P issue for my opponents, and you won’t be incorrect, but no developer is going to openly take the stance “L2P scrubs.”

Ofc they won’t, because they can’t.
They make a living out of this game, if they’d start to assume a “L2P scrubs” stance they would find themselves soon without a job as the game would become a ghost town. Can’t and won’t blame them, that we like it or not the “L2P scrubs” make the 90% of this game population and revenue

But it does not matter what they can do, I am interested in the objective truth

That’s where you’re wrong, as you asked us to enlighten you.

Objective truth, while very informative, is often times not very useful because it doesn’t really propose a path forward but simply explain what is happening. Analyzing that it’s the players who are wrong, while accurate, isn’t a solution. Telling players to nut up and “l2p” also isn’t an acceptable solution. Their only choices involve either nerfing the class in some way to allow other players to counter the class easier or do and say nothing and hope players figure it out.

In the end, i have a feeling that elementalist will end up against where we were a year ago, being really bad in pvp, but meh, what are you gonna do about it.

Lawful.5314:

In the end, i have a feeling that elementalist will end up against where we were a year ago, being really bad in pvp, but meh, what are you gonna do about it.

Personally I’m finishing off my Guardian, Necro and Thief before the expansion hoping that Revenant or a class specialization will offer me similar ranged AOE not tied to my utility (IE: Necro wells).

So in our own subforum we say our DD Celestial is OP while in another class’ subforum they say they they’re only cautious of S/F Fresh Air? Something’s not right here.

Kidding aside, IMO full celestial DD is only OP in PvP mode. PvE and WvW, it’s not as good. Zerker will always be the meta in PvE. People can stack up a lot of Vit and Toughness in WvW that a full celestial build will have too low base power and armor compared to other classes’ normal WvW builds.

Nerfing our traits and skills furthermore will hurt most if not all of our other builds. They should really seperate PvP and WvW/PvE nerfs if they want to hit Celestial DD fairly but on the other hand we don’t really have much diversity in high tier PvP.

P.S. BTW that new signet build is really fun (6 fire 2 air 6 earth). It might not be as strong as our standard cele bunker DD but it’s fun and refreshing for a change.

Kodiak.3281:

Lawful.5314:

In the end, i have a feeling that elementalist will end up against where we were a year ago, being really bad in pvp, but meh, what are you gonna do about it.

Personally I’m finishing off my Guardian, Necro and Thief before the expansion hoping that Revenant or a class specialization will offer me similar ranged AOE not tied to my utility (IE: Necro wells).

Good one, myself was thinking about making a Guarian and Necro, always wanted to try necro but never got the time to, and i would prefer to have Guardian instead of Warrior as a tank.

Only reason why eles were deemed UP prior to the april 2014 patch was because of uber OP thieves = spammable double boon steal on sword 3 and broken Lyssa Runes combo, not so much for dhuumfire necros, they could be controlled; where s/d thieves along side pistol whip thieves were literally decimating the ele community.

Spammable boon steal is gone and will not be coming back and now there are builds that can hurt s/d thief pretty badly, should that ever happen.

Lyssa runes, something that was giving free stab, aegis, protection to thieves is gone too.

Basically even few harsh nerfs won’t bring ele back again on the brink of extinction , so we can all relax a bit

Kodiak.3281:

That’s where you’re wrong, as you asked us to enlighten you.

Objective truth, while very informative, is often times not very useful because it doesn’t really propose a path forward but simply explain what is happening. Analyzing that it’s the players who are wrong, while accurate, isn’t a solution. Telling players to nut up and “l2p” also isn’t an acceptable solution. Their only choices involve either nerfing the class in some way to allow other players to counter the class easier or do and say nothing and hope players figure it out.

You are not getting it: I am asking whether my analysis is the only objective explanation for why we appear OP. The question is: can any one else come up with an other explanation? I just want to understand why we appear OP.

We can think of solutions once we have properly stated what the problem is.

Edit:
By default I always assume that the people I am talking to are logical and sensible. I might be overly optimistic but with this paradigm in mind I cannot understand how anyone would not recognize that there is a l2p issue if there is one. Since people do not seem to acknowledge this kind of issue, I assume that my analysis is wrong. This is why I look for alternative explanations. This is where you are supposed to enlighten me.

Supreme.3164:

Only reason why eles were deemed UP prior to the april 2014 patch was because of uber OP thieves = spammable double boon steal on sword 3 and broken Lyssa Runes combo, not so much for dhuumfire necros, they could be controlled; where s/d thieves along side pistol whip thieves were literally decimating the ele community.

Spammable boon steal is gone and will not be coming back and now there are builds that can hurt s/d thief pretty badly, should that ever happen.

Lyssa runes, something that was giving free stab, aegis, protection to thieves is gone too.

Basically even few harsh nerfs won’t bring ele back again on the brink of extinction , so we can all relax a bit

Oh yeah, it was the thief nerfs, and not the celestial amulet buff, or the signet of restoration un-nerf, or other countless little changes here and there that made the class viable again.

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

Kodiak.3281:

That’s where you’re wrong, as you asked us to enlighten you.

Objective truth, while very informative, is often times not very useful because it doesn’t really propose a path forward but simply explain what is happening. Analyzing that it’s the players who are wrong, while accurate, isn’t a solution. Telling players to nut up and “l2p” also isn’t an acceptable solution. Their only choices involve either nerfing the class in some way to allow other players to counter the class easier or do and say nothing and hope players figure it out.

You are not getting it: I am asking whether my analysis is the only objective explanation for why we appear OP. The question is: can any one else come up with an other explanation? I just want to understand why we appear OP.

We can think of solutions once we have properly stated what the problem is.

Ele is not deemd OP….D/D Ele is deemed OP and this is why:

-You can’t walk away (while holding a cup of tea in your other hand) from every incoming source of dmg with a big grin on your face like you can do against a staff ele
-You can’t gank ,while laughing, and insta kill a d/d ele like you can do with s/f ele
-D/D ele makes ele challenging to fight, not more ele is considered a walking free kill/ loot bag
-People hate to lose 1vs1 more than anything.

You need no more reasons, am I saying lies?

This is what the “nerf ele” community unanimously agree upon when it comes to ele:

-“Staff ele is fine and balanced (easy to kill, kite, never a true source of danger, never wins 1vs1 against a human player) and d/d ele should be like this”
-Scepter burst ele is fine and balanced (can be oneshotted by every single meta build with ease, a free kill in high level pvp, select target and explode him)

Lawful.5314:

Supreme.3164:

Only reason why eles were deemed UP prior to the april 2014 patch was because of uber OP thieves = spammable double boon steal on sword 3 and broken Lyssa Runes combo, not so much for dhuumfire necros, they could be controlled; where s/d thieves along side pistol whip thieves were literally decimating the ele community.

Spammable boon steal is gone and will not be coming back and now there are builds that can hurt s/d thief pretty badly, should that ever happen.

Lyssa runes, something that was giving free stab, aegis, protection to thieves is gone too.

Basically even few harsh nerfs won’t bring ele back again on the brink of extinction , so we can all relax a bit

Oh yeah, it was the thief nerfs, and not the celestial amulet buff, or the signet of restoration un-nerf, or other countless little changes here and there that made the class viable again.

-The thief well deserved nerfs made ele viable again( in a world without d/d, but only with staff and scepter as they’re now, there would be not a single ele in PvP, the class would have been deleted months ago)

-The celestial made ele stackable with no repercussions

But in the end yes, thief with double boon rip/steal +aegis/stability/and all other boons ever 30s or so..was way behind brutal, it was a nightmare to even try an ele in pvp…it was truly a nightmare and I was very close to throw away gw2 and delete my account….before the Dec 10 2013 patch..I was very close ( have to thank my friend for keeping me in at that time)

rotten.9753:

xDudisx.5914:

Staff is a balanced build. Focusing in group fights and in supportive role. And is not op in 1v1.

d/d in the other hand has almost the same support as staff and is nearly god mode in 1v1. With very few counters like a fearmancer. Also has more mobility than staff or scepter.

Then why people choose staff eles over d/d? Last eu esl had 50/50 proportions of staff and d/d eles.

One is complementing the other. When was the last time you saw a team bring a staff without a d/d? Or 2 staff ele?

Supreme.3164:

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

Kodiak.3281:

That’s where you’re wrong, as you asked us to enlighten you.

Objective truth, while very informative, is often times not very useful because it doesn’t really propose a path forward but simply explain what is happening. Analyzing that it’s the players who are wrong, while accurate, isn’t a solution. Telling players to nut up and “l2p” also isn’t an acceptable solution. Their only choices involve either nerfing the class in some way to allow other players to counter the class easier or do and say nothing and hope players figure it out.

You are not getting it: I am asking whether my analysis is the only objective explanation for why we appear OP. The question is: can any one else come up with an other explanation? I just want to understand why we appear OP.

We can think of solutions once we have properly stated what the problem is.

Ele is not deemd OP….D/D Ele is deemed OP and this is why:

-You can’t walk away (while holding a cup of tea in your other hand) from every incoming source of dmg with a big grin on your face like you can do against a staff ele
-You can’t gank ,while laughing, and insta kill a d/d ele like you can do with s/f ele
-D/D ele makes ele challenging to fight, not more ele is considered a walking free kill/ loot bag
-People hate to lose 1vs1 more than anything.

You need no more reasons, am I saying lies?

This is what the “nerf ele” community unanimously agree upon when it comes to ele:

-“Staff ele is fine and balanced (easy to kill, kite, never a true source of danger, never wins 1vs1 against a human player) and d/d ele should be like this”
-Scepter burst ele is fine and balanced (can be oneshotted by every single meta build with ease, a free kill in high level pvp, select target and explode him)

Celestial Staff is balanced it focus more in the support/bunker spec with area denial. Could get some quality life buffs in ice spike, gust and lightning surge though.

Scepter is just bad. Fresh air as most zerker builds is not very good because thieves just destroy them after using the long cd defenses. Try celestial scepter feels just like a nerfed d/d.

Because the other builds can get small buffs does not mean that d/d is fine.

It is not like it is normal difficulty to burst a d/d ele. It is really impossible for some classes/builds. Most builds can’t beat celestial d/d ele even if they completly outplay you.

As I have mentioned before in another thread, a D/D ele can be countered easily if you understood the mechanics behind it. People calling for a nerf are simply refusing to do so. And imho, if you don’t even try to understand the mechanics of the class you cannot beat, you have no right to participate in a balance discussion about it or call for a nerf.

[…]
For instance, if I fight a warrior I know that I can at most eat one eviscerate in the beginning of the fight and then I would still win if I do everything else perfectly. More than a few mistakes and I am done. But the warrior will eat Burning Speed, Earthquake, Lightning Touch, etc. Most opponents do not actively try to counter us. I guess that they simply do not understand what we do.

Cheers, a quality post right here.

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

You are not getting it: I am asking whether my analysis is the only objective explanation for why we appear OP. The question is: can any one else come up with an other explanation? I just want to understand why we appear OP.

We can think of solutions once we have properly stated what the problem is.

Edit:
By default I always assume that the people I am talking to are logical and sensible. I might be overly optimistic but with this paradigm in mind I cannot understand how anyone would not recognize that there is a l2p issue if there is one. Since people do not seem to acknowledge this kind of issue, I assume that my analysis is wrong. This is why I look for alternative explanations. This is where you are supposed to enlighten me.

I’ve played pretty much since launch.

Casual PvPer, tend to focus more on WvW, with a lot of roaming. I’ve mained Ele almost the entire time (with a lesser focus on Guardian and Engineer).

My personal observation is thus:

The strongest iteration of the Ele in 1v1 was at launch, when skills like RtL hadn’t been nerfed yet, and was the era of 1vX trolling videos in WvW. PvP, the Ele has ALWAYS been subpar, except for several organized teams that can play to the strengths of the class while minimizing the weaknesses.

The greater “nerf Ele” community perceives the bog standard Ele through this lens. If they get their butt kicked by an Ele, they perceive it as an OP class, even though they then proceed to get their butts kicked by the other seven professions too.

For some reason I can’t fathom, players just don’t like being dominated by a good Ele player. It doesn’t matter if you point out PU Mesmers, most Thief builds, decap Engies, hambow/shoutbow, bunker Guards etc., etc. Its like these players have blinders on, and are tunnel vision’d on the Ele as the source of all their woes.

More than any other profession out there, it seems the majority of PvP scrubs refuse to adjust their builds and tactics to counter a profession like the Ele, and rather than bringing CC skills, boonstrips, and any other counter you can think of, they just complain and moan when their damage doesn’t land or stick. And usually with a casual PvP environment like GW2, the squeaky wheel gets the grease, and if you compare objectively where the Ele is now compared to release, its been over nerfed pretty significantly.

I mean, the META build for Eles in PvP right now requires you to blast through half your skills before every fight just to build up enough Might to be a threat, as to just have a chance at survival you have to build extremely tanky. Most other professions are not that badly pigeonholed, and if players were HONEST they’d admit they want the class nerfed just so they don’t get rolled by a decent Ele in 1 out of every 10 match ups.

Anet has said they wants eles to be just boring blasting water bots with some CC and dps.

xDudisx.5914:

One is complementing the other. When was the last time you saw a team bring a staff without a d/d? Or 2 staff ele?

I’ve just said, the last eu esl cup. Every team had only 1 ele and in 50% of the cases that was a staff ele. On the other hand, every team had a d/p thief, a rifle engineer and almost every team had (14/16) a dps guard. The best eu teams are not stacking eles at all. In fact, a d/d ele isn’t even the most popular build.

kyon.8601:

P.S. BTW that new signet build is really fun (6 fire 2 air 6 earth). It might not be as strong as our standard cele bunker DD but it’s fun and refreshing for a change.

Signet build isn’t new. I had a lot of fun with it back in the day as a change of pace. Stacking max condi duration to 100% negated most of the negatives of the build and since our conditions by default already have huge durations it was pretty great as a change of pace.

@Zelyhn Again your problem is not your logic nor is it that people aren’t logical it’s that there are scenarios and situations where logic or being right simply have no bearing. Very few people will ever have the courage to look at what went wrong, analyze what they could have done differently, what actually happened vs what they assume happened, and make corrections. Most people are going to go, “Man that ele is such BS I bursted him and he healed to full and then he just killed me and I couldn’t do anything.” even when it has nothing to do with what actually happened.

It’s an emotional response where someone is mad and they aren’t thinking logically. Turning around and rebuking that emotional response and putting it back on the person will invariably be seen as an attack. This creates an antagonized situation that most people tend to want to avoid thus, the only real response in this scenario is to simply sit back, be quiet and ignore it and hope the emotion subsides.

@kodiak

My bad then. It was the first time I’ve seen that D/F 62600 signet build. Most signet builds I’ve encountered before are usually condi S/F.

Kodiak.3281:

@Zelyhn Again your problem is not your logic nor is it that people aren’t logical it’s that there are scenarios and situations where logic or being right simply have no bearing. Very few people will ever have the courage to look at what went wrong, analyze what they could have done differently, what actually happened vs what they assume happened, and make corrections. Most people are going to go, “Man that ele is such BS I bursted him and he healed to full and then he just killed me and I couldn’t do anything.” even when it has nothing to do with what actually happened.

It’s an emotional response where someone is mad and they aren’t thinking logically. Turning around and rebuking that emotional response and putting it back on the person will invariably be seen as an attack. This creates an antagonized situation that most people tend to want to avoid thus, the only real response in this scenario is to simply sit back, be quiet and ignore it and hope the emotion subsides.

Ok, I get your point. But my assumption remains valid: I can not imagine top PvP players to have emotional responses to any given problem. Actually, it is the fact that these players are more analytic and critically self-aware that makes them top players. Therefore if they were to say that the D/D ele is OP they would have non-emotional reasons for it. These are the reasons I am looking for.

And well, all it would take to change the opinion of the less-top-player masses is a few pros persuading them (yes, persuading, not convincing) that the ele is not actually OP and that it is possible to deal with this class just fine (=l2p).

This is why I chose to completely ignore the emotional responses. Look at the last patch notes: people on the forums were expressing “omg ele nerf again omg” thoughts and they were wrong of course. I am fairly certain that devs also ignore these kinds of fantasies. So if we are going to have a debate, it needs to be objective.