Guild Wars 2

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

So if we are going to have a debate, it needs to be objective.

If at the end of the debate you determine 100% objectively that people are scrublords who don’t know how to play their class and counter the Elementalist there’s absolutely no way in hell any game company is going to tell their players, “Hey noobs, l2p you filthy casual scrubs, Ele is fine.”

If you approach the upset players and present to them a logical, well reasoned and thought filled post about why they are wrong and why the Ele is fine and not overpowered they’re going to take it as you’re attacking them and saying they are bad and will ignore everything you say.

What I’m saying is having the debate at all is pointless. You’re trying to get people to buy something they can’t sell and something other people don’t want.

Kodiak.3281:

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

So if we are going to have a debate, it needs to be objective.

If at the end of the debate you determine 100% objectively that people are scrublords who don’t know how to play

Kodiak, once more, I am fairly certain that top players are not “scrublords”. Therefore they must have reasons to think that the ele is OP if they think the ele is OP. If the top players do not think that the ele is OP then there is no need for debate.

Now that we have settled this divergence for the third time, could we get to the reasons why top players could objectively think the ele is OP?

:)

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

Kodiak, once more, I am fairly certain that top players are not “scrublords”. Therefore they must have reasons to think that the ele is OP if they think the ele is OP. If the top players do not think that the ele is OP then there is no need for debate.

Now that we have settled this divergence for the third time, could we get to the reasons why top players could objectively think the ele is OP?

You haven’t settled anything. You still don’t understand.

You’re asking a bunch of Elementalists why do we think the Elementalist is OP. None of us think it’s OP. None of us can think of a reason it is considered OP. We all play the class and know it’s not OP. Even if you’re a bad player or a good player no one here thinks the Elementalist is OP. We’re all aware of it’s advantages the class has as well as all painfully aware of it’s limitations.

If you want other people’s opinions on the matter, you have to go elsewhere to get them. Debating whether or not the Elementalist is OP in an Elementalist forum where Elementalists come is entirely and completely pointless.

Kodiak.3281:

You haven’t settled anything. You still don’t understand.

You’re asking a bunch of Elementalists why do we think the Elementalist is OP. None of us think it’s OP. None of us can think of a reason it is considered OP. We all play the class and know it’s not OP. Even if you’re a bad player or a good player no one here thinks the Elementalist is OP. We’re all aware of it’s advantages the class has as well as all painfully aware of it’s limitations.

If you want other people’s opinions on the matter, you have to go elsewhere to get them. Debating whether or not the Elementalist is OP in an Elementalist forum where Elementalists come is entirely and completely pointless.

I play ele and believe it’s OP but mostly because of how celestial amulet is strong.

Kodiak.3281:

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

Kodiak, once more, I am fairly certain that top players are not “scrublords”. Therefore they must have reasons to think that the ele is OP if they think the ele is OP. If the top players do not think that the ele is OP then there is no need for debate.

Now that we have settled this divergence for the third time, could we get to the reasons why top players could objectively think the ele is OP?

You haven’t settled anything. You still don’t understand.

You’re asking a bunch of Elementalists why do we think the Elementalist is OP. None of us think it’s OP. None of us can think of a reason it is considered OP. We all play the class and know it’s not OP. Even if you’re a bad player or a good player no one here thinks the Elementalist is OP. We’re all aware of it’s advantages the class has as well as all painfully aware of it’s limitations.

If you want other people’s opinions on the matter, you have to go elsewhere to get them. Debating whether or not the Elementalist is OP in an Elementalist forum where Elementalists come is entirely and completely pointless.

= “I do not have the answer you are looking for”

Thanks Kodiak, I highly enjoyed this fruitful discussion with you

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

Thanks Kodiak, I highly enjoyed this fruitful discussion with you

Sure! Anytime!

I really look forward to the ground breaking effort that you have with Arena Net and all the change and impact you have on the actual game with your discussion and debate. I imagine it will be far reaching and meaningful.

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

Kodiak.3281:

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

Kodiak, once more, I am fairly certain that top players are not “scrublords”. Therefore they must have reasons to think that the ele is OP if they think the ele is OP. If the top players do not think that the ele is OP then there is no need for debate.

Now that we have settled this divergence for the third time, could we get to the reasons why top players could objectively think the ele is OP?

You haven’t settled anything. You still don’t understand.

You’re asking a bunch of Elementalists why do we think the Elementalist is OP. None of us think it’s OP. None of us can think of a reason it is considered OP. We all play the class and know it’s not OP. Even if you’re a bad player or a good player no one here thinks the Elementalist is OP. We’re all aware of it’s advantages the class has as well as all painfully aware of it’s limitations.

If you want other people’s opinions on the matter, you have to go elsewhere to get them. Debating whether or not the Elementalist is OP in an Elementalist forum where Elementalists come is entirely and completely pointless.

= “I do not have the answer you are looking for”

Thanks Kodiak, I highly enjoyed this fruitful discussion with you

Who are these top players you speak of?

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

Kodiak.3281:

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

So if we are going to have a debate, it needs to be objective.

If at the end of the debate you determine 100% objectively that people are scrublords who don’t know how to play

Kodiak, once more, I am fairly certain that top players are not “scrublords”. Therefore they must have reasons to think that the ele is OP if they think the ele is OP. If the top players do not think that the ele is OP then there is no need for debate.

Now that we have settled this divergence for the third time, could we get to the reasons why top players could objectively think the ele is OP?

:)

Because d/d ele is not free kill like on other specs when played right and this irk them, they do not complain about staff ele, they do not complain about fresh air ele..only things they complain is the d/d ele, only built that can’t be killed by simply looking at it

In my opinion, d/d cele ele is a tad bit OP for conquest. It has an excellent damage/survivability ratio making it excellent in 1v1’s, while having top-tier support due to innate boon-sharing, heals, and cleanses.

The entirety of this problem is that the key traits eles take for their own survivability innately carry group support as well. This makes them one of the best duelists and skirmishers. Because of support sharing, stacking eles has a positive net effect, as opposed to amplifying the class’s weakness (bursts). While Anet wants eles to have good support capabilities, they can’t be tied to the powerful self-defense skills eles need.

Further, this gets into the heart of the problem of eles’ reliance on the incredibly strong (even OP) traits that are required for serious pvp activities. Outside of niche applications (like a signet build, which isn’t really viable in pvp), there has NEVER been a viable ele build that does have at least 8 points in water/arcana. Elemental attunement is probably the most OP trait in the game, but the entire class is balanced around every ele having it. The only way to get a low-CD cleanse is with either evasive arcana or water-line. Its time start thinking about making some of these survival capabilities more accessible/innate in ways that don’t buff the full-bunker ele.

For instance, elemental attunement: ALL eles should have this effect, baseline, at 50% of its current duration. The trait should increase that duration by 100% (up to current duration) and make it aoe. Alternatively, split that trait: one trait increase the duration to the current baseline, and one makes those boons aoe (but a larger aoe than currently).

Renewing stamina is so necessary on dps builds, but is a bit much on cele ele. Why don’t we move it to the precision-line (air), simultaneously forcing eles to go into a dps line while removing the necessity for arcana. Heck, tackle the problem of the 1-point minor not existing in air, and make it “Endurance regenerates 50% faster while attuned to air.” Then slap a 10s CD on renewing stamina (now an air adept) so that eles can’t get 100% vigor uptime, but still have very high endurance regen even without the trait, helping dps builds.

Ah the younger generations of d/d eles…what does it mateer if celestial is OP.It just brings out all of our aspects.Its what we are supposed to do.Control the kittening elements.

If you think D/D Cantrip ele didn’t work before Celestial i am telling you now..you think wrong.Its a good build it works.Its been nerfed and nerfed.No need for more debating.Instead of asking if its OP ask the devs if they plan on changing traits in other lines so Fire(for example) can be used more.

D/D ele was ALWAYS OP in 1vs1 or more in the hands of a good player.It is known.

Everything else sucks compared to cele DD, this spec is too good and everything else ele has right now is not good enough

Graendall.4765:

If you think D/D Cantrip ele didn’t work before Celestial i am telling you now..you think wrong.Its a good build it works.Its been nerfed and nerfed.No need for more debating.Instead of asking if its OP ask the devs if they plan on changing traits in other lines so Fire(for example) can be used more.

D/D ele was ALWAYS OP in 1vs1 or more in the hands of a good player.It is known.

The problem honestly isn’t the other lines. Fire, Air and Earth all received major boosts in the traits they have on those lines. They all have great options.

The REAL problem is…you’ll rarely see those lines in things like WvW or PvP because we’re pretty much forced into Water/Arcane to get enough survivability to have any kind of sustained presence. We have the weakest armor and HP base yet our mobility has been systematically dismantled and nerfed repeatedly since launch. Instead we’re supposed to rely entirely on large numbers of small heals with pitififul coefficients for sustainability and use boons to give us offense and defense. When they go after these things they give absolutely nothing to compensate. They don’t reduce our boon effectiveness and then add a little armor. They don’t nerf our healing and then add some HP. This just forces us to continuously double down time after time again further into more defense. It’s been this way since release.

Celestial Amulet is nothing more than the latest variation of that same old problem. Where once we wore Cleric’s gear and relied entirely on Boons for damage source, we now have the option to use the Celestial Amulet and still get a bit of the big defenses while also giving us some offensive stats that when stacked with boons is good enough.

Simple fact of the matter is if they want Elementalists to break out of the Water/Arcane crutch then they have to give us something else to stand on. They refuse to do this and refuse to acknowledge it as a issue so it will continue until they do.

Graendall.4765:

Ah the younger generations of d/d eles…what does it mateer if celestial is OP.It just brings out all of our aspects.Its what we are supposed to do.Control the kittening elements.

If you think D/D Cantrip ele didn’t work before Celestial i am telling you now..you think wrong.Its a good build it works.Its been nerfed and nerfed.No need for more debating.Instead of asking if its OP ask the devs if they plan on changing traits in other lines so Fire(for example) can be used more.

D/D ele was ALWAYS OP in 1vs1 or more in the hands of a good player.It is known.

Someone tried telling me the game came out in Spring 2013, when I referenced D/D ele OPNess in winter 2012-13.

Celestial outside of PvP sucks. So the amulet probably is a bit too good, while Celestial armour and weapons are too weak.

Kodiak.3281:

Graendall.4765:

If you think D/D Cantrip ele didn’t work before Celestial i am telling you now..you think wrong.Its a good build it works.Its been nerfed and nerfed.No need for more debating.Instead of asking if its OP ask the devs if they plan on changing traits in other lines so Fire(for example) can be used more.

D/D ele was ALWAYS OP in 1vs1 or more in the hands of a good player.It is known.

The problem honestly isn’t the other lines. Fire, Air and Earth all received major boosts in the traits they have on those lines. They all have great options.

The REAL problem is…you’ll rarely see those lines in things like WvW or PvP because we’re pretty much forced into Water/Arcane to get enough survivability to have any kind of sustained presence. We have the weakest armor and HP base yet our mobility has been systematically dismantled and nerfed repeatedly since launch. Instead we’re supposed to rely entirely on large numbers of small heals with pitififul coefficients for sustainability and use boons to give us offense and defense. When they go after these things they give absolutely nothing to compensate. They don’t reduce our boon effectiveness and then add a little armor. They don’t nerf our healing and then add some HP. This just forces us to continuously double down time after time again further into more defense. It’s been this way since release.

Celestial Amulet is nothing more than the latest variation of that same old problem. Where once we wore Cleric’s gear and relied entirely on Boons for damage source, we now have the option to use the Celestial Amulet and still get a bit of the big defenses while also giving us some offensive stats that when stacked with boons is good enough.

Simple fact of the matter is if they want Elementalists to break out of the Water/Arcane crutch then they have to give us something else to stand on. They refuse to do this and refuse to acknowledge it as a issue so it will continue until they do.

Jon Peters
Game Design Lead

I think the big question here is the base health/armor of the elementalist. Of course if you are just an elementalist you just want us to raise these, but balance must work around some fixed things and profession health and armor are an important part of defining what a profession is so that we can create powerful tools that players can actively use to circumvent these weaknesses

Dec 2013 Ele Sub Forum

Ele crap HP base and armour is here to stay, the powerful defensive tools we have is the compensation for that, this won’t change in the end.

Few changes will come I know but this is not the Anet of 2013/14 with its carpet bomb nerfs, some positive changes happened in the development team.

All the current PvP devs : Jon, karl, Hugh and Ron are all reasonable guys. Changes will come but won’t be profession destroying like it happened in 2013.

I’d like to add that in 2013 the ele got almost wiped out because of a really broken thief : spammable pistol whip(less ini compared to now), double boon steal spammable sword( less ini compared to now + Infiltrator did not require target so it was possible to precast it before teleporting for massive dmg and boon steal + poison spamm from stealth using SB ); and finally uber broken Lyssa Runes that used to give all boons in game to thief on a very short CD ( 32s CD with elite venom) and clear all condis at the same time

So even if ele get nerfed to pre-April 2014 levels ( 99% sure it won’t happen), we would still be fine( more buffs to scepter inc also)

Supreme.3164:

Ele crap HP base and armour is here to stay, the powerful defensive tools we have is the compensation for that, this won’t change in the end.

Few changes will come I know but this is not the Anet of 2013/14 with its carpet bomb nerfs, some positive changes happened in the development team.

All the current PvP devs : Jon, karl, Hugh and Ron are all reasonable guys. Changes will come but won’t be profession destroying like it happened in 2013.

I’d like to add that in 2013 the ele got almost wiped out because of a really broken thief : spammable pistol whip(less ini compared to now), double boon steal spammable sword( less ini compared to now + Infiltrator did not require target so it was possible to precast it before teleporting for massive dmg and boon steal + poison spamm from stealth using SB ); and finally uber broken Lyssa Runes that used to give all boons in game to thief on a very short CD ( 32s CD with elite venom) and clear all condis at the same time

So even if ele get nerfed to pre-April 2014 levels ( 99% sure it won’t happen), we would still be fine( more buffs to scepter inc also)

But that’s precisely the point. Those “powerful” defensive tools we have in compensation for that have been systematically attacked and dismantled patch after patch after patch since release.

Some of the biggest earliest nerfs were to our defensive mobility cool downs. They went after Ride the Lightning. They removed the Cantrip stun breakers off of Cleansing Fire (hidden) and Lightning Flash (intentional). From there most of our healing was also systematically nerfed as well losing chunks of % performance. There was absolutely zero compensation for these nerfs and it got so bad that we eventually had zero presence in PvP at all.

Think about this from another light. Look at Thief vs Ranger. Ranger is more about tanking through and sustaining through in their defense and has a medium health pool to compensate. Thief has many escape tools and mobility and has a smaller health pool to compensate. Now look at Elementalist vs Mesmer. Elementalist is forced to sustain defense through boons and heals but has a lower HP pool while the Mesmer has many escape tools and in combat mobility but have a medium health pool. There’s no consistency there.

So we’re forced, by design, to compensate for our natural deficiencies that we get as a class in the sake of balance. This compensation comes in the form of requiring Boons (for defense and offense) and healing revolving around a Water/Arcane spec. If they want us to venture out of those specs, they need to give us something else to stand on. They could make Fire/Air traits uber as hell, and the simple truth of the matter is you won’t be able to go to them still because you simply won’t live long enough to make them matter. They actually already are really good if used but as others denote once they know you got 6 in Air (Fresh Air) they know you’re a good and easy kill when focused.

Those natural deficiencies essentially cripple us down to one truly viable and good specialization that your average player can use. We are crippled by design. If they want to try different things and they want us to get off these crutches (Water/Arcane) then they need to uncripple us by design. It is the only way. Destroying our crutches just makes us the class non-viable in high level play and you saw that when no one did an Elementalist.

If they’re unwilling to do that, then it’s just a huge waste of time.

Kaleban.9834:

For some reason I can’t fathom, players just don’t like being dominated by a good Ele player. It doesn’t matter if you point out PU Mesmers, most Thief builds, decap Engies, hambow/shoutbow, bunker Guards etc., etc. Its like these players have blinders on, and are tunnel vision’d on the Ele as the source of all their woes.

Ele was a “free kill” for the longest time, so when they get killed by one, they think that they are weaker than the weakest, so they whine.

Kodiak.3281:

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

So if we are going to have a debate, it needs to be objective.

If at the end of the debate you determine 100% objectively that people are scrublords who don’t know how to play their class and counter the Elementalist there’s absolutely no way in hell any game company is going to tell their players, “Hey noobs, l2p you filthy casual scrubs, Ele is fine.”

If you approach the upset players and present to them a logical, well reasoned and thought filled post about why they are wrong and why the Ele is fine and not overpowered they’re going to take it as you’re attacking them and saying they are bad and will ignore everything you say.

What I’m saying is having the debate at all is pointless. You’re trying to get people to buy something they can’t sell and something other people don’t want.

Which is sad, because both of you are right.

I’d take a nerf to sustain for old RTL and maybe a CE revamp, just sayin. Perhaps a nerf to cele amulet’s defensive stats and a slight upgrade to the offensive stats will do.

Just my 2 cents.

Is Ele OP?
No. But a certain amulet makes D/D Ele OP in PvP for me.

What makes D/D Ele OP for PvP?
Celestial Amulet and decent skills.

“Decent skills” sounds too broad. What do you mean by it?
It means someone who knows the basics of stacking might on D/D Ele and knows when to push and pull off during a fight. Anybody who can do this will be able to play Celestial D/D Ele decently.

How can you say that Ele is only OP when he uses Celestial Amulet in PvP?
Is D/D Ele OP with zerker amulet? No.
Is D/D Ele OP with soldier amulet? No.
Is D/D Ele OP with any other amulet aside from Celestial? No.

TL;DR – Celestial amulet lets an ele have more than enough of what it needs to do its role. Tankiness and Decent DPS. People won’t call an Ele OP if they use zerkers since they die in a few hits. People won’t call an Ele OP if they use Soldier amulet since they don’t deal enough damage (lack of crits).

Why is celestial Ele in PvE and WvW not OP?
Because there are a lot more other variables that can counter a DD celestial Elementalist in PvE/WvW and most of the time, mixing armor stats will give better results.

What should ANET do to tone down Celestial D/D Eles then
They should definitely NOT nerf elementalist traits and skills. They should nerf celestial amulet.

Conclusion:
People only have complaints in PvP when they fight a D/D celestial Elementalist. Have you ever seen anybody complain about an Ele who doesn’t use D/D celestial? In short, Celestial amulet makes D/D Elementalists too strong, not the class itself.

one more question…
Is D/D celectial ele OP without mightstacks? No.
many blasts + fire field = dmg
D/D + celestial + dmg = OP

maybe reduce might from 3 to 2 for blasts?

MaXi.3642:

one more question…
Is D/D celectial ele OP without mightstacks? No.
many blasts + fire field = dmg
D/D + celestial + dmg = OP

maybe reduce might from 3 to 2 for blasts?

That would be a very stupid kind of nerf, rather nerf the amulet, then cripple the entire class.
As they are already doing, because of suggestions like that.

They already went after Might and Might Stacking. Not only did they nerf Sigil of Battle, they also went after the effectiveness of Might. This is again exactly what I’m talking about where instead of addressing the real issues at the core, they go after the side effects hoping that will discourage people or irritate them enough to change specs.

However when you’re forced into a spec by class design that you can’t really change from all this does is force you to double down harder on it. Reducing the effectiveness of the Might boon doesn’t force us to look at other options because no other viable options exist. It just means we have to work even harder to ensure that we’re keeping as many stacks of Might as we can on ourselves.

kyon.8601:

Just my 2 cents.

What makes D/D Ele OP for PvP?
Celestial Amulet and decent skills.

How can you say that Ele is only OP when he uses Celestial Amulet in PvP?
Is D/D Ele OP with zerker amulet? No.
Is D/D Ele OP with soldier amulet? No.
Is D/D Ele OP with any other amulet aside from Celestial? No.

TL;DR – Celestial amulet lets an ele have more than enough of what it needs to do its role. Tankiness and Decent DPS. People won’t call an Ele OP if they use zerkers since they die in a few hits. People won’t call an Ele OP if they use Soldier amulet since they don’t deal enough damage (lack of crits).

What should ANET do to tone down Celestial D/D Eles then
They should definitely NOT nerf elementalist traits and skills. They should nerf celestial amulet.

What you said does not make sense. I could say that no thief or mesmer build is OP if they are not zerker and by your logic the solution would be nerf zerker amulet. Fearmancer OP? Let’s nerf rabid/carion even though they dont even work for most classes….

Is celestial necro op? No, not even viable.
Is celestial mesmer op? No, not even viable.
Is celestial thief op? No, not even viable.
Is celestial ranger op? No, not even viable.
Is celestial guardian op? No, not even viable.
Is celestial non dd ele op? No

Conclusion: celestial is ok. It is not even viable for 5 out of 8 classes. Out of the other 3 classes 2 (engi and war) have good and solid builds even if not running celestial. A few dd ele traits and weapon skills are op.

MaXi.3642:

one more question…
Is D/D celectial ele OP without mightstacks? No.
many blasts + fire field = dmg
D/D + celestial + dmg = OP

maybe reduce might from 3 to 2 for blasts?

That has been suggested before. I think it would be a great change for spvp and would make it harder for people to keep perma 25 stacks of might on dungeons/pve. Also makes sense to keep the sigilf of battle at the same lvl as the blasting fire field.

If you nerf the class instead of the amulet you’re just forcing the class to use celestial amulet even more… IMO we should be allowed to mess around with the stats that we want on our amulets in SPvP.

xDudisx.5914:

That has been suggested before. I think it would be a great change for spvp and would make it harder for people to keep perma 25 stacks of might on dungeons/pve. Also makes sense to keep the sigilf of battle at the same lvl as the blasting fire field.

Are you seriously agreeing with it? How many people stack over 12~15 stacks in PvP? I Don’t see any at all, could you show me a PvP video where someone can consistently stack 25 stacks of Might in PvP every fight.

I’m really curious as to the definition of "OP’…

Is it “I got killed by xxx class, therefore xxx class must be overpowered because I’m so good” kind of hubris?

Because looking at the class objectively, between weaksauce skills, high cooldowns, and the basic requirement to blast Might in a fast paced PvP environment to do competitive damage in any way, doesn’t really say “OP” to me.

My guess is that since the Elementalist is no longer a free, easy kill, and is able to compete on an equal footing to the majority of other professions, that even footing seems overpowered relative to how the Ele used to be. Never mind that to be competitive the Ele has to be played to the hilt, and minor mistakes that other professions can soak via armor, active defenses or inherent class abilities flattens an Ele into a quick grave.

So our choice of making eles a free kill again VS not as tanky?

I say, make eles more viable to be able to use the other amulets instead of celestial. 3rd party options FTW~ But that might actually make them abit OP & get nerfed back to the dark ages they were in b4 april patch- OMG GUESS WHAT? A CLASS THAT BENEFITS FROM AN AMULET? PLS NERF.

Ele’s aren’t OP- it’s a L2P thing.
OP is when you give X class any kind of build/gear/stats & it wins 99% of the time no matter skill level.

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

Kodiak.3281:

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

So if we are going to have a debate, it needs to be objective.

If at the end of the debate you determine 100% objectively that people are scrublords who don’t know how to play

Kodiak, once more, I am fairly certain that top players are not “scrublords”. Therefore they must have reasons to think that the ele is OP if they think the ele is OP. If the top players do not think that the ele is OP then there is no need for debate.

Now that we have settled this divergence for the third time, could we get to the reasons why top players could objectively think the ele is OP?

:)

Probably because noone gets a free kill anymore out of the ele :P

Kaleban.9834:

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

You are not getting it: I am asking whether my analysis is the only objective explanation for why we appear OP. The question is: can any one else come up with an other explanation? I just want to understand why we appear OP.

We can think of solutions once we have properly stated what the problem is.

Edit:
By default I always assume that the people I am talking to are logical and sensible. I might be overly optimistic but with this paradigm in mind I cannot understand how anyone would not recognize that there is a l2p issue if there is one. Since people do not seem to acknowledge this kind of issue, I assume that my analysis is wrong. This is why I look for alternative explanations. This is where you are supposed to enlighten me.

I’ve played pretty much since launch.

Casual PvPer, tend to focus more on WvW, with a lot of roaming. I’ve mained Ele almost the entire time (with a lesser focus on Guardian and Engineer).

My personal observation is thus:

The strongest iteration of the Ele in 1v1 was at launch, when skills like RtL hadn’t been nerfed yet, and was the era of 1vX trolling videos in WvW. PvP, the Ele has ALWAYS been subpar, except for several organized teams that can play to the strengths of the class while minimizing the weaknesses.

The greater “nerf Ele” community perceives the bog standard Ele through this lens. If they get their butt kicked by an Ele, they perceive it as an OP class, even though they then proceed to get their butts kicked by the other seven professions too.

For some reason I can’t fathom, players just don’t like being dominated by a good Ele player. It doesn’t matter if you point out PU Mesmers, most Thief builds, decap Engies, hambow/shoutbow, bunker Guards etc., etc. Its like these players have blinders on, and are tunnel vision’d on the Ele as the source of all their woes.

More than any other profession out there, it seems the majority of PvP scrubs refuse to adjust their builds and tactics to counter a profession like the Ele, and rather than bringing CC skills, boonstrips, and any other counter you can think of, they just complain and moan when their damage doesn’t land or stick. And usually with a casual PvP environment like GW2, the squeaky wheel gets the grease, and if you compare objectively where the Ele is now compared to release, its been over nerfed pretty significantly.

I mean, the META build for Eles in PvP right now requires you to blast through half your skills before every fight just to build up enough Might to be a threat, as to just have a chance at survival you have to build extremely tanky. Most other professions are not that badly pigeonholed, and if players were HONEST they’d admit they want the class nerfed just so they don’t get rolled by a decent Ele in 1 out of every 10 match ups.

No truer words have been spoken until now~

xDudisx.5914:

kyon.8601:

Just my 2 cents.

What makes D/D Ele OP for PvP?
Celestial Amulet and decent skills.

How can you say that Ele is only OP when he uses Celestial Amulet in PvP?
Is D/D Ele OP with zerker amulet? No.
Is D/D Ele OP with soldier amulet? No.
Is D/D Ele OP with any other amulet aside from Celestial? No.

TL;DR – Celestial amulet lets an ele have more than enough of what it needs to do its role. Tankiness and Decent DPS. People won’t call an Ele OP if they use zerkers since they die in a few hits. People won’t call an Ele OP if they use Soldier amulet since they don’t deal enough damage (lack of crits).

What should ANET do to tone down Celestial D/D Eles then
They should definitely NOT nerf elementalist traits and skills. They should nerf celestial amulet.

What you said does not make sense. I could say that no thief or mesmer build is OP if they are not zerker and by your logic the solution would be nerf zerker amulet. Fearmancer OP? Let’s nerf rabid/carion even though they dont even work for most classes….

Is celestial necro op? No, not even viable.
Is celestial mesmer op? No, not even viable.
Is celestial thief op? No, not even viable.
Is celestial ranger op? No, not even viable.
Is celestial guardian op? No, not even viable.
Is celestial non dd ele op? No

Conclusion: celestial is ok. It is not even viable for 5 out of 8 classes. Out of the other 3 classes 2 (engi and war) have good and solid builds even if not running celestial. A few dd ele traits and weapon skills are op.

MaXi.3642:

one more question…
Is D/D celectial ele OP without mightstacks? No.
many blasts + fire field = dmg
D/D + celestial + dmg = OP

maybe reduce might from 3 to 2 for blasts?

That has been suggested before. I think it would be a great change for spvp and would make it harder for people to keep perma 25 stacks of might on dungeons/pve. Also makes sense to keep the sigilf of battle at the same lvl as the blasting fire field.

It seems that you don’t get the point.

Nerfing the traits and skills will just kill the other less viable builds hanging around. It seems that you can’t understand that simple statement.

You claim that the class itself is OP, if it is then D/D should be fine using any other amulet aside from Celestial but that isn’t the case.

And the way you compared them makes no sense. Zerker thief and mesmer can deal burst damage but that’s all they have. Celesial Ele can deal decent direct and condition damage but they also have more than decent sustain and tankiness. Celestial amulet should make you “average” on everything, not above average.

Since D/D’s playstyle is about out-sustaining your enemies. People complain that Celestial DD Eles have decent damage while being tanky. Nerfing might will hurt all classes, nerfing skills and traits will hurt most of other Ele builds. IMO they should nerf celestial’s offensive stats, nerfing might stacking again should be the last option.

I don’t want d/d to be nerfed so bad people don’t play it, it’s good fun having eles on our frontlines.
Simple solution: Make blasts in fire fields grant two stacks of might per blast, reduce might duration a tad on strength and hoelbrak runes.

Henrik.7560:

I don’t want d/d to be nerfed so bad people don’t play it, it’s good fun having eles on our frontlines.
Simple solution: Make blasts in fire fields grant two stacks of might per blast, reduce might duration a tad on strength and hoelbrak runes.

Seeing as how it seems quite impossible to nerf only the offensive stats of celestial amulet, nerfing might stacking (blasting) a bit more might be the best solution. The only problem is that other classes probably complain about global might stacking just because of celestial builds.

Nerfing skills and trait shouldn’t be an option at all because it will hurt other builds more than it hurts Celestial D/D.

kyon.8601:

xDudisx.5914:

kyon.8601:

Just my 2 cents.

What makes D/D Ele OP for PvP?
Celestial Amulet and decent skills.

How can you say that Ele is only OP when he uses Celestial Amulet in PvP?
Is D/D Ele OP with zerker amulet? No.
Is D/D Ele OP with soldier amulet? No.
Is D/D Ele OP with any other amulet aside from Celestial? No.

TL;DR – Celestial amulet lets an ele have more than enough of what it needs to do its role. Tankiness and Decent DPS. People won’t call an Ele OP if they use zerkers since they die in a few hits. People won’t call an Ele OP if they use Soldier amulet since they don’t deal enough damage (lack of crits).

What should ANET do to tone down Celestial D/D Eles then
They should definitely NOT nerf elementalist traits and skills. They should nerf celestial amulet.

What you said does not make sense. I could say that no thief or mesmer build is OP if they are not zerker and by your logic the solution would be nerf zerker amulet. Fearmancer OP? Let’s nerf rabid/carion even though they dont even work for most classes….

Is celestial necro op? No, not even viable.
Is celestial mesmer op? No, not even viable.
Is celestial thief op? No, not even viable.
Is celestial ranger op? No, not even viable.
Is celestial guardian op? No, not even viable.
Is celestial non dd ele op? No

Conclusion: celestial is ok. It is not even viable for 5 out of 8 classes. Out of the other 3 classes 2 (engi and war) have good and solid builds even if not running celestial. A few dd ele traits and weapon skills are op.

MaXi.3642:

one more question…
Is D/D celectial ele OP without mightstacks? No.
many blasts + fire field = dmg
D/D + celestial + dmg = OP

maybe reduce might from 3 to 2 for blasts?

That has been suggested before. I think it would be a great change for spvp and would make it harder for people to keep perma 25 stacks of might on dungeons/pve. Also makes sense to keep the sigilf of battle at the same lvl as the blasting fire field.

It seems that you don’t get the point.

Nerfing the traits and skills will just kill the other less viable builds hanging around. It seems that you can’t understand that simple statement.

You claim that the class itself is OP, if it is then D/D should be fine using any other amulet aside from Celestial but that isn’t the case.

And the way you compared them makes no sense. Zerker thief and mesmer can deal burst damage but that’s all they have. Celesial Ele can deal decent direct and condition damage but they also have more than decent sustain and tankiness. Celestial amulet should make you “average” on everything, not above average.

Since D/D’s playstyle is about out-sustaining your enemies. People complain that Celestial DD Eles have decent damage while being tanky. Nerfing might will hurt all classes, nerfing skills and traits will hurt most of other Ele builds. IMO they should nerf celestial’s offensive stats, nerfing might stacking again should be the last option.

Celestial makes your build average/underpowered on 5 classes. It makes your build average on ele if using weapons other than d/d. The problem is not the amulet. Is the d/d build.

xDudisx.5914:

kyon.8601:

xDudisx.5914:

kyon.8601:

Just my 2 cents.

What makes D/D Ele OP for PvP?
Celestial Amulet and decent skills.

How can you say that Ele is only OP when he uses Celestial Amulet in PvP?
Is D/D Ele OP with zerker amulet? No.
Is D/D Ele OP with soldier amulet? No.
Is D/D Ele OP with any other amulet aside from Celestial? No.

TL;DR – Celestial amulet lets an ele have more than enough of what it needs to do its role. Tankiness and Decent DPS. People won’t call an Ele OP if they use zerkers since they die in a few hits. People won’t call an Ele OP if they use Soldier amulet since they don’t deal enough damage (lack of crits).

What should ANET do to tone down Celestial D/D Eles then
They should definitely NOT nerf elementalist traits and skills. They should nerf celestial amulet.

What you said does not make sense. I could say that no thief or mesmer build is OP if they are not zerker and by your logic the solution would be nerf zerker amulet. Fearmancer OP? Let’s nerf rabid/carion even though they dont even work for most classes….

Is celestial necro op? No, not even viable.
Is celestial mesmer op? No, not even viable.
Is celestial thief op? No, not even viable.
Is celestial ranger op? No, not even viable.
Is celestial guardian op? No, not even viable.
Is celestial non dd ele op? No

Conclusion: celestial is ok. It is not even viable for 5 out of 8 classes. Out of the other 3 classes 2 (engi and war) have good and solid builds even if not running celestial. A few dd ele traits and weapon skills are op.

MaXi.3642:

one more question…
Is D/D celectial ele OP without mightstacks? No.
many blasts + fire field = dmg
D/D + celestial + dmg = OP

maybe reduce might from 3 to 2 for blasts?

That has been suggested before. I think it would be a great change for spvp and would make it harder for people to keep perma 25 stacks of might on dungeons/pve. Also makes sense to keep the sigilf of battle at the same lvl as the blasting fire field.

It seems that you don’t get the point.

Nerfing the traits and skills will just kill the other less viable builds hanging around. It seems that you can’t understand that simple statement.

You claim that the class itself is OP, if it is then D/D should be fine using any other amulet aside from Celestial but that isn’t the case.

And the way you compared them makes no sense. Zerker thief and mesmer can deal burst damage but that’s all they have. Celesial Ele can deal decent direct and condition damage but they also have more than decent sustain and tankiness. Celestial amulet should make you “average” on everything, not above average.

Since D/D’s playstyle is about out-sustaining your enemies. People complain that Celestial DD Eles have decent damage while being tanky. Nerfing might will hurt all classes, nerfing skills and traits will hurt most of other Ele builds. IMO they should nerf celestial’s offensive stats, nerfing might stacking again should be the last option.

Celestial makes your build average/underpowered on 5 classes. It makes your build average on ele if using weapons other than d/d. The problem is not the amulet. Is the d/d build.

It’s because the class mechanic of those other 5 classes is not about bunking. They can’t utilize the healing power because it scales bad for them so it’s pretty much a wasted stat.

Like I said before, celestial amulet makes D/D above average on almost every aspect that you need in PvP when paired with might stacking.

Your argument was “is thief/mes OP without zerker amulet?”.
Zerker Thief/Mesmer = high DPS with/without might stacks. Low sustain and survivability.
Celestial D/D Elementalist = decent DPS with might stacks, high sustain and survivability.

My opinion is that Might covers up the lack of damage from Celestial amulet, and D/D ele is too good at stacking might. It’s like we’re not sacrificing that much power at all by using Celestial amulet.

You can’t nerf elementalist skills and traits because it will hurt other builds a lot more than it will hurt D/D celestial. Zerker/Soldier D/D is already subpar, nerfing the traits and skills more will make it utterly useless. What needs to be nerfed is either celestial’s offensive stats or might stacking. In case you haven’t noticed, the 3 classes that shine with celestial have good abilities to stack might on their own.

Kaleban.9834:

its the poor design of PvP.

This guy… This guy here gets it.

kyon.8601:

xDudisx.5914:

kyon.8601:

xDudisx.5914:

kyon.8601:

Just my 2 cents.

What makes D/D Ele OP for PvP?
Celestial Amulet and decent skills.

How can you say that Ele is only OP when he uses Celestial Amulet in PvP?
Is D/D Ele OP with zerker amulet? No.
Is D/D Ele OP with soldier amulet? No.
Is D/D Ele OP with any other amulet aside from Celestial? No.

TL;DR – Celestial amulet lets an ele have more than enough of what it needs to do its role. Tankiness and Decent DPS. People won’t call an Ele OP if they use zerkers since they die in a few hits. People won’t call an Ele OP if they use Soldier amulet since they don’t deal enough damage (lack of crits).

What should ANET do to tone down Celestial D/D Eles then
They should definitely NOT nerf elementalist traits and skills. They should nerf celestial amulet.

What you said does not make sense. I could say that no thief or mesmer build is OP if they are not zerker and by your logic the solution would be nerf zerker amulet. Fearmancer OP? Let’s nerf rabid/carion even though they dont even work for most classes….

Is celestial necro op? No, not even viable.
Is celestial mesmer op? No, not even viable.
Is celestial thief op? No, not even viable.
Is celestial ranger op? No, not even viable.
Is celestial guardian op? No, not even viable.
Is celestial non dd ele op? No

Conclusion: celestial is ok. It is not even viable for 5 out of 8 classes. Out of the other 3 classes 2 (engi and war) have good and solid builds even if not running celestial. A few dd ele traits and weapon skills are op.

MaXi.3642:

one more question…
Is D/D celectial ele OP without mightstacks? No.
many blasts + fire field = dmg
D/D + celestial + dmg = OP

maybe reduce might from 3 to 2 for blasts?

That has been suggested before. I think it would be a great change for spvp and would make it harder for people to keep perma 25 stacks of might on dungeons/pve. Also makes sense to keep the sigilf of battle at the same lvl as the blasting fire field.

It seems that you don’t get the point.

Nerfing the traits and skills will just kill the other less viable builds hanging around. It seems that you can’t understand that simple statement.

You claim that the class itself is OP, if it is then D/D should be fine using any other amulet aside from Celestial but that isn’t the case.

And the way you compared them makes no sense. Zerker thief and mesmer can deal burst damage but that’s all they have. Celesial Ele can deal decent direct and condition damage but they also have more than decent sustain and tankiness. Celestial amulet should make you “average” on everything, not above average.

Since D/D’s playstyle is about out-sustaining your enemies. People complain that Celestial DD Eles have decent damage while being tanky. Nerfing might will hurt all classes, nerfing skills and traits will hurt most of other Ele builds. IMO they should nerf celestial’s offensive stats, nerfing might stacking again should be the last option.

Celestial makes your build average/underpowered on 5 classes. It makes your build average on ele if using weapons other than d/d. The problem is not the amulet. Is the d/d build.

It’s because the class mechanic of those other 5 classes is not about bunking. They can’t utilize the healing power because it scales bad for them so it’s pretty much a wasted stat.

Like I said before, celestial amulet makes D/D above average on almost every aspect that you need in PvP when paired with might stacking.

Your argument was “is thief/mes OP without zerker amulet?”.
Zerker Thief/Mesmer = high DPS with/without might stacks. Low sustain and survivability.
Celestial D/D Elementalist = decent DPS with might stacks, high sustain and survivability.

My opinion is that Might covers up the lack of damage from Celestial amulet, and D/D ele is too good at stacking might. It’s like we’re not sacrificing that much power at all by using Celestial amulet.

You can’t nerf elementalist skills and traits because it will hurt other builds a lot more than it will hurt D/D celestial. Zerker/Soldier D/D is already subpar, nerfing the traits and skills more will make it utterly useless. What needs to be nerfed is either celestial’s offensive stats or might stacking. In case you haven’t noticed, the 3 classes that shine with celestial have good abilities to stack might on their own.

You can’t nerf celestial just to nerf 1-2 specific builds hurting all the others. It is possible to nerf traits and weapon skills that will affect d/d more than any other build.

Since when guard and ranger can’t utilize healing power? Lols

People are actually opting for nerfing might stacking and cripple the class even further, than nerf a piece of PvP gear.
Making a class weaker in PvE and WvW, just to go around a problem in sPvP, is not a great solution for balance.
With that said, D/D Cele build is not even a problem, as mentioned by dozens of higher tier players.

Also if you nerf might stacking , that means that ALL elementalist builds will suffer, not just D/D Cele builds.

Instead of nerfing the survivability of the D/D cele meta build, which is obviously its strength, suggested you weaken Might stacking instead, which means that for every 3 stacks, you lose one, so instead of having 15 stacks, you would end up with 10 stacks and lose 150 power.

The problem is people wanting them to lower survivability on cele amulet and increasing its POWER instead, but you suggest elementalist lose 100~200 power, instead, which is the exact opposite direction.

Basically ,what is suggested is that – the elementalist class to be nerfed in such a way, that it would end up in the situation of year 2013, where the class had no damage and barely enough survivability to be a minor annoyance, yet not a threat.

What people really need to do, is learn how to counterplay the D/D Cele build, instead of looking for easy solutions like nerfs.

The previous post was getting a bit too long, so i’ll make another one.

I personally think that people are too used to be able to kill Elementalist with ANY build they run, and thus they don’t like the D/D cele build because its not a free kill anymore, and they can either not kill it with the setup they run , or even worse, they get killed instead and become frustrated, because for the longest time, Elementalist was just there, doing nothing but being annoying.

I think that SHOULD NOT, be the case and you should have different builds, specifically designed to shut down the D/D cele build, just like you spec against certain builds of other classes to counter them.

But ultimately, even if the devs end up satisfying these unreasonable claims by nerfing the D/D Meta Cele build, another problem will arise, and that will be the new Signet build that runs 6 earth.

The new 6 Earth Signet build, will take place of the D/D Cele build and that will be the new focus of the community, because as it seems to me, the problem is not in the D/D Cele meta build itself, but in the class instead, where people just refuse to accept the elementalist as a viable, strong pick in PvP.

The survivability side of d/d should be better than the offensive one because they put all traits in defensive trait lines. Celestial has only about 500 less power than zerker. With 17 might stacks you have the same power as zerker. Might stack is still a problem.

Nerf might stack won’t make ele bad. Will just move from almost god mode for 1v1 to balanced like other classes.

Do you have anything against the signet build?

xDudisx.5914:

The survivability side of d/d should be better than the offensive one because they put all traits in defensive trait lines. Celestial has only about 500 less power than zerker. With 17 might stacks you have the same power as zerker. Might stack is still a problem.

Nerf might stack won’t make ele bad. Will just move from almost god mode for 1v1 to balanced like other classes.

Do you have anything against the signet build?

You don’t get it, do you?
Cele DD has 1500 base power, while zerker has 2000 base power.
With those 17 might stacks, Zerker ele will have 2500 power, which is a huge increase in damage.
Even if DD ele has 2000 power, that doesn’t make it as strong damage wise as Zerker, because it does not get the huge boost in precision and ferocity.

And 17 might stacks? How often do you have 17 might stacks? I’ll tell you right now, not very often at all, in most fights, you will have like 12 stacks and then they will start running out, even if you have 12 at all, unless your group constantly keeps blasting your firefields too.
Which means that D/D cele ele, has around on average 1700~1800 power.

If you put too much emphasis on might stacking or distract yourself too much with it, you are going to be dead way sooner than you expect, it takes away your concentration and messes with the free flow of the build, where you can’t exactly run fire>earth>water every time just to might stack, because you might need to pop water right after fire, or lightning to get some healing off, or remove some conditions.

And what i don’t understand is, why do people think that might stacking is exclussively an elementalist trait? The might stacking nerf will never happen, because it doesn’t just affect elementalist, it will affect every class in the game to some extent and will affect class that can create fire-fields themselves.

How many times has this elementalist had 17 stacks of might in this video? Twice.
Mostly because he kept using Glyph of Elemental Harmony, in fire, which people dont do anymore, so he wouldn’t have had more than 14 stacks otherwise.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYbyag78jf0
How many times has this elementalist had 17 stacks of might? Once.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hZiCpMBuYQ
How many times has this elementalist had 17 stacks? Once, why? Because his team blasted a few fields, he reached 22 stacks, that quickly ran out there after.

Well i think you get my point.

Now if you will also notice, all these videos are dated, before the sigil of battle nerf, so what does this mean? Well it simply means that Might stacking is even more scarce now. And where you would have seen 17 stacks, now that would be 14-15 instead.
So basically, 14-15 stacks, is even less frequient nowadays, and 17 is even harder to get an maintain in real pvp.
And even if you get 17, like i said – you aren’t running 80% crit rate with 210% crit damage like you would have had in zerker, so you don’t utilize the damage as effectively.

What i see in this thread, is people grasping at Straws because they don’t know how to actually suggest a good way to balance the class, so instead of going after its strengths, they are going after its weaker counterparts and suggesting might nerfs. That make no sense.

Why? Because if you further weaken the elementalist’s survivability that is already weak at its base level, that would just break the class.
So people are searching for other angles to complaint.

And no i do not have anything against the signet build, but i assure you, that if they nerf the Cele D/D meta build, the signet build is next in line for criticism, because it is just as strong, but people haven’t caught up yet.

Ele was only mediocre during a year since Anet nerfed signet of restoration to do half the healing it did in pve/wvw. Since they fixed that it’s ok. People just upset since we have a viable build if they only look at meta battles they can see how more viable builds are out there for everyone. Our lack of stability is still a big issue being an ele and cantrip nerfs.

Ele was changed to free kill for awhile but people who stay playing an ele for 5k hours plus maintain the ele popularity. Please don’t nerf it, we are about balance and sustainability that’s what this class was about. And now people are making all classes an ele but wants to maintain high damage, health/armor, more power utilities. Well throw me a carrot and call me April.

Lawful.5314:

xDudisx.5914:

The survivability side of d/d should be better than the offensive one because they put all traits in defensive trait lines. Celestial has only about 500 less power than zerker. With 17 might stacks you have the same power as zerker. Might stack is still a problem.

Nerf might stack won’t make ele bad. Will just move from almost god mode for 1v1 to balanced like other classes.

Do you have anything against the signet build?

You don’t get it, do you?
Cele DD has 1500 base power, while zerker has 2000 base power.
With those 17 might stacks, Zerker ele will have 2500 power, which is a huge increase in damage.
Even if DD ele has 2000 power, that doesn’t make it as strong damage wise as Zerker, because it does not get the huge boost in precision and ferocity.

And 17 might stacks? How often do you have 17 might stacks? I’ll tell you right now, not very often at all, in most fights, you will have like 12 stacks and then they will start running out, even if you have 12 at all, unless your group constantly keeps blasting your firefields too.
Which means that D/D cele ele, has around on average 1700~1800 power.

If you put too much emphasis on might stacking or distract yourself too much with it, you are going to be dead way sooner than you expect, it takes away your concentration and messes with the free flow of the build, where you can’t exactly run fire>earth>water every time just to might stack, because you might need to pop water right after fire, or lightning to get some healing off, or remove some conditions.

And what i don’t understand is, why do people think that might stacking is exclussively an elementalist trait? The might stacking nerf will never happen, because it doesn’t just affect elementalist, it will affect every class in the game to some extent and will affect class that can create fire-fields themselves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSirPFbLBTE

How many times has this elementalist had 17 stacks of might in this video? Twice.
Mostly because he kept using Glyph of Elemental Harmony, in fire, which people dont do anymore, so he wouldn’t have had more than 14 stacks otherwise.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYbyag78jf0
How many times has this elementalist had 17 stacks of might? Once.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hZiCpMBuYQ
How many times has this elementalist had 17 stacks? Once, why? Because his team blasted a few fields, he reached 22 stacks, that quickly ran out there after.

Well i think you get my point.

Now if you will also notice, all these videos are dated, before the sigil of battle nerf, so what does this mean? Well it simply means that Might stacking is even more scarce now. And where you would have seen 17 stacks, now that would be 14-15 instead.
So basically, 14-15 stacks, is even less frequient nowadays, and 17 is even harder to get an maintain in real pvp.
And even if you get 17, like i said – you aren’t running 80% crit rate with 210% crit damage like you would have had in zerker, so you don’t utilize the damage as effectively.

First, most zerker builds have a hard time might stacking. Thief is a good example of this.

Second, the crit dmg from zerker and celestial is pretty much the same (179% vs 180%). This happens because spvp zerker is not pure zerker it has vitality.

Third, 80% crit chance? From where are you getting those number? Pve dungeon builds? The difference from celestial to zerker is only 10% crit chance. Considering ele has a access to fury and some zerkers like mesmer don’t I think it is a problem.

Finally,

It is not hard to get 15+ stacks.
1-2 from fire attunement
9 from 3 blasts
1-2 from hoelbrak passive
4-6 from sigil of battle
can get more 1 or 2 with fire aura from leap combo

The problem is..personal skills

LB ranger beats top ele and top engi ins 1vs1

xDudisx.5914:

Second, the crit dmg from zerker and celestial is pretty much the same (179% vs 180%). This happens because spvp zerker is not pure zerker it has vitality.

Third, 80% crit chance? From where are you getting those number? Pve dungeon builds? The difference from celestial to zerker is only 10% crit chance. Considering ele has a access to fury and some zerkers like mesmer don’t I think it is a problem.

Zerker builds run ferocity runes, i have 213% on my zerker ele build.
And its pretty close to 80% crit chance with fury, yet again.

To get 15 stacks of might and maintain is lucridious, unless you are fighting for over a minute.

D/D usual rotation, assuming you are in a fight for 30 seconds.
2 swaps, 4 stacks, first rotation you blast earth 4 and roll, second rotation you blast water 3, which not a lot of people even do. That is 15 stacks.
By now the might you have blasted out first, is going to start running out so you will have to sustain the might now.

PvP does not happen in a perfect world where you just stack might with nobody attacking you, there are going to always be situations where you just cant might stack every time.

You will be dodging into different directions, you won’t always be on your fire field to might stack, you won’t always have Earth dodge ready when you go into earth because you had to avoid an Eviscerate, ect.

And lastly, the cooldown on your earth 4, which is what most people love might blasting with, is a whole 40 seconds.

15 might stacks, is the breaking point where you start losing might in a battle.

And lastly, leaping is not effecient , i would not advise doing that, unless you are chasing someone.

Everything you post is “theory in a perfect world”.
It is not applicable to real PvP.

Nerfing the entire class, over a specific build in sPvP, will not help the class.
That solution will not make anyone happy, especially not Elementalist players.

I brought hard proof and facts, even PvP videos of good players, not sustaining 25 stacks, yet you insist that might stacking is the problem.

Even the ESL pro top teams elementalists don’t stack over 15 stacks of might usually, they hang at around 8~14

I don’t see what the big fuss is. Elementalist is still not OP…

Lawful.5314:

xDudisx.5914:

The survivability side of d/d should be better than the offensive one because they put all traits in defensive trait lines. Celestial has only about 500 less power than zerker. With 17 might stacks you have the same power as zerker. Might stack is still a problem.

Nerf might stack won’t make ele bad. Will just move from almost god mode for 1v1 to balanced like other classes.

Do you have anything against the signet build?

You don’t get it, do you?
Cele DD has 1500 base power, while zerker has 2000 base power.
With those 17 might stacks, Zerker ele will have 2500 power, which is a huge increase in damage.
Even if DD ele has 2000 power, that doesn’t make it as strong damage wise as Zerker, because it does not get the huge boost in precision and ferocity.

And 17 might stacks? How often do you have 17 might stacks? I’ll tell you right now, not very often at all, in most fights, you will have like 12 stacks and then they will start running out, even if you have 12 at all, unless your group constantly keeps blasting your firefields too.
Which means that D/D cele ele, has around on average 1700~1800 power.

If you put too much emphasis on might stacking or distract yourself too much with it, you are going to be dead way sooner than you expect, it takes away your concentration and messes with the free flow of the build, where you can’t exactly run fire>earth>water every time just to might stack, because you might need to pop water right after fire, or lightning to get some healing off, or remove some conditions.

And what i don’t understand is, why do people think that might stacking is exclussively an elementalist trait? The might stacking nerf will never happen, because it doesn’t just affect elementalist, it will affect every class in the game to some extent and will affect class that can create fire-fields themselves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSirPFbLBTE

How many times has this elementalist had 17 stacks of might in this video? Twice.
Mostly because he kept using Glyph of Elemental Harmony, in fire, which people dont do anymore, so he wouldn’t have had more than 14 stacks otherwise.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYbyag78jf0
How many times has this elementalist had 17 stacks of might? Once.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hZiCpMBuYQ
How many times has this elementalist had 17 stacks? Once, why? Because his team blasted a few fields, he reached 22 stacks, that quickly ran out there after.

Well i think you get my point.

Now if you will also notice, all these videos are dated, before the sigil of battle nerf, so what does this mean? Well it simply means that Might stacking is even more scarce now. And where you would have seen 17 stacks, now that would be 14-15 instead.
So basically, 14-15 stacks, is even less frequient nowadays, and 17 is even harder to get an maintain in real pvp.
And even if you get 17, like i said – you aren’t running 80% crit rate with 210% crit damage like you would have had in zerker, so you don’t utilize the damage as effectively.

Comparing the same build just changin the amulet the difference is just 10% crit chance. The biggest difference would be in power but might covers it. Reduce sigil of battle to 2stacks and nerf might from 35 to 30 was a good move, but might stacking is still too strong.

xDudisx.5914:

Comparing the same build just changin the amulet the difference is just 10% crit chance. The biggest difference would be in power but might covers it. Reduce sigil of battle to 2stacks and nerf might from 35 to 30 was a good move, but might stacking is still too strong.

Well, i personally couldn’t care less if they remove might entirely, but it will cripple the class, because cele amulet will get nerfed eventually, then we’ll be left with a bunch of weak builds again.

If they do that, i’ll just stop playing the class until they undo the “superb” balance they usually treat elementalists to.