Guild Wars 2

In my experience, churning earth doesn’t really have much use. In PvE it’s really only useful for might stacking before an encounter. In PvP it is the same issue. Even with the lightning flash combo, it is still easy to dodge just by timing the channel. While I don’t really WvW, I could potentially see it used there for surprise zerg busting or something. A poster below said this is not the case as churning earth has a cap on how many people it can hit. Regardless, I think it could use a little tweaking.

Ultimately, keep it the way it is, but give us the option to “detonate” it early similar to thief’s cluster bomb. Of course, it will do less damage if detonated early (how much less I haven’t really thought about), but it wouldn’t be such a predictable skill in PvP and could also be used in PvE for quick might stacking during encounters, as opposed to only before said encounter. If the caster chooses not to end the skill early and finish the 3 1/4s channel, it will stay the same.

What do you all think? Any constructive criticism is welcome.

Lots of people will agree the skill needs a revamp, the way it should be revamped I’m not quite sure. I’d love to see something like magnetic aura applied while channeling churning earth. D/D needs some way to reflect projectiles imo. I like your idea as well, perhaps for each second of channeling the skill the damage could scale accordingly, allowing you to detonate it anywhere from 1 to 3 1/4 seconds.

The skill currently sees little to no use in WvW either, because AoE only hits 5 ppl and it’s not easy to stand within lighting flash range of a zerg for 3 seconds and not take a serious beating., not to mention the beating you take on your way out of the zerg too.

Grimreaper.5370:

I like your idea as well, perhaps for each second of channeling the skill the damage could scale accordingly, allowing you to detonate it anywhere from 1 to 3 1/4 seconds.

Yes, that’s what I meant in my original post. I guess I wasn’t clear enough!

Cecilia.5179:

The skill currently sees little to no use in WvW either, because AoE only hits 5 ppl and it’s not easy to stand within lighting flash range of a zerg for 3 seconds and not take a serious beating., not to mention the beating you take on your way out of the zerg too.

Thanks for the info! Like I said, I don’t really WvW, but this proves my point even more. I guess churning earth is lackluster at best in every game mode.

Been thinking about a revamp of churning aswell.
They could make it a damage per tick instead, 4 sec channel does X dmg each sec.
Would also be quite awesome if it dazed instead of the current conditions. Would give it a build in defense against melee while channeling, but not over the top since it can still be avoided/interupted.

No use in WvW and PvP? Learn to play please.

One thought I had regarding churning earth was to essentially swap a large portion of the functionality of shockwave and churning earth. What you’d get would be what is essentially a kill shot for x/d (slow and powerful like the current churning earth, but as a projectile rather than an aoe) and a kiting skill for staff (immobilise on impact followed by cripple as long as you stand in it).

This would boost the utility of each set without just power creeping everything, as each altered skill would still do the same kind of things as what is currently on that slot, but more reliably.

Luimes.4281:

No use in WvW and PvP? Learn to play please.

1. Luimes

Dont think any1 was saying that it has NO USE in wvw or pvp.
But i do think its still rather gimmicky and relies too much on other CD’s to get full benefit.

And can we please stop with the “L2P” quote. I have been around long enough to know all the tricks in the book but other players might not have. So when you disagree with something and have the knowhow to enlighten other players then do so or dont post at all.

To make it less useless it would be enough to:
- add protection when channeling
- always hit when blind
- hit through Aegis

Deneb.2697:

To make it less useless it would be enough to:
- add protection when channeling
- always hit when blind
- hit through Aegis

Then there would be a lot less counter-play against it.

Someone suggested it before, just revert it to be a Charged skill. The longer you charge it, the stronger it is. You have the freedom to choose when to actually activate it during the channeling duration.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Churning_Earth
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Charge_skill

Luimes.4281:

No use in WvW and PvP? Learn to play please.

Anyone with half of a brain can dodge churning earth even with lightning flash simply by timing the channel. It is an incredibly predictable skill. If you are landing churning earth then you are most likely fighting unskilled players.

Deneb.2697:

To make it less useless it would be enough to:
- add protection when channeling
- always hit when blind
- hit through Aegis

This doesn’t address the issue of actually being able to land churning earth. It would still be an incredibly predictable skill that could easily be dodged with the right timing.

Kyon.9735:

Someone suggested it before, just revert it to be a Charged skill. The longer you charge it, the stronger it is. You have the freedom to choose when to actually activate it during the channeling duration.

That was kind of what I was suggesting if you read my opening post. The wiki says churning earth actually used to be a charged skill, but maybe that was in beta because I don’t remember it ever being one.

I like the idea, Weena! It would definitely make me attempt to land that skill more. As it is, I rarely initiate it because I’m slightly glassy and can get dps’ed down pretty quick if I’m just standing there charging a skill haha.

To make it less useless it would be enough to:
- add protection when channeling
- always hit when blind
- hit through Aegis

@ OP

I totally agree. Lets make this the most op skill ever!

Now in all seriousness. Churning Earth is a good skill but it requires experience to land. You can land it in zergs, in pvp without wasting any cd’s for it.

However the suggestion making it charged is good. I wouldn’t change anything else about it.

Roaming last night i was able to land churning earth multiple times (downed 2 in 1 churn!!) in 3 v 5 fights. I have found popping stability and using it in the middle of the “ele burst rotation” (before earthquake) is catching alot of people by surprise. With the new burst in DD water (skill 3) you don’t have to go air. fire. earth. you can go air. fire. water. land frozen burst, roll behind them and start your churn. I’m not saying its easy to land but changing up your rotation at the start and positioning well has been giving me good results. just wanted to add a success story to help assure people that its not completely useless.

OP i do like the “detonate” idea but i would prefer something along the lines of a pull. (like guardian gs 5) @ 1 sec into the churn pull up to 5 enemies within the churn range to you. People would need stability, time their dodge better, and use a mobility skill to get out of the way.

Luimes.4281:

To make it less useless it would be enough to:
- add protection when channeling
- always hit when blind
- hit through Aegis

@ OP

I totally agree. Lets make this the most op skill ever!

That wasn’t my suggestion, but okay. This thread is about churning earth. Please go troll elsewhere. I apologize, I wrote this before seeing your second post.

Treeoflife.4031:

I’m not saying its easy to land but changing up your rotation at the start and positioning well has been giving me good results. just wanted to add a success story to help assure people that its not completely useless.

I am not saying it is impossible to land, especially when there are a lot of particle effects flying around and a decent amount of people clumped together. Against skilled players (especially 1v1), it is pretty much impossible to land. They will just beat up on you for the duration of the channel and dodge when it’s finished channeling. Also, if you have to pop stability like armor of earth for the skill to even be effective, then I can’t say the skill is up to par.

Luimes.4281:

Now in all seriousness. Churning Earth is a good skill but it requires experience to land. You can land it in zergs, in pvp without wasting any cd’s for it.

However the suggestion making it charged is good. I wouldn’t change anything else about it.

Like I said above I agree it is possible to land, but it is also easy to predict. I agree and ultimately, I do like the skill the way it is, but having it be a charged skill would really make it infinitely better.

Luimes.4281:

To make it less useless it would be enough to:
- add protection when channeling
- always hit when blind
- hit through Aegis

@ OP

I totally agree. Lets make this the most op skill ever!

Still wouldn’t be OP, anyone with an understanding of the skill will just dodge after counting to 3 and avoid all of the damage. I’d rather see the skill have a “detonate” option between 1 and 3 1/4 seconds.

I don’t think it should hit through blinds and aegis. Why should it have that kind of advantage over other skills?

On the other hand, I think it should have different benefits to the user, like Stability and Protection while channeling it.

I honestly think it would be nice if the skill was completely scraped and they just gave off hand dagger 5 some defensive skill instead.

Axelwarrior.9084:

I don’t think it should hit through blinds and aegis. Why should it have that kind of advantage over other skills?

On the other hand, I think it should have different benefits to the user, like Stability and Protection while channeling it.

because is a massivee single hit aoe damage. Why a big rock summoned should miss if the ele is blind? the ele is not targetting anyone, is just an aoe damage. Imho, all aoe untargetted skill should hit even if blind.

if I dig a pit under your position, and then i become blind while “channelling”. Will you fall in the grave or after blinding me ….you also learned how to levitate?

maybe hitting through aegis might seem op… but CE is really really really […] really telegraphated skill that should have some sort of advantage. Let aegis block, but in compensation reduce channeling time or make it easier to land.

Grimreaper.5370:

Still wouldn’t be OP, anyone with an understanding of the skill will just dodge after counting to 3 and avoid all of the damage. I’d rather see the skill have a “detonate” option between 1 and 3 1/4 seconds.

Yes, it wouldn’t be OP necessarily, but it would be really silly and wouldn’t address the real problem which is its predictability.

Axelwarrior.9084:

On the other hand, I think it should have different benefits to the user, like Stability and Protection while channeling it.

Like I stated above, this really wouldn’t help you land churning earth which is the problem.

Deneb.2697:

if I dig a pit under your position, and then i become blind while “channelling”. Will you fall in the grave or after blinding me ….you also learned how to levitate?

I’m confused as to why you’re trying to use real-world logic to prove your point.

Somehow it feels like not many people have read my opening post very closely. So many people are suggesting boons while channeling or going through certain conditions/blocks/aegis/whatever. These things do not make churning earth less predictable, which is the crux of my argument.

Also a lot of people are saying I landed churning earth X times yesterday and murdered Y number of people etc. This is still irrelevant. Anyone can land a skill when there are a lot of particle effects, a big zerg, or even against unskilled/new players. My point is in small-scale or 1v1 fights involving skilled players churning earth isn’t even worth using because it is so predictable. The channel time isn’t worth it if it’s so easily avoidable. Also having to blow other cooldowns like armor of earth or lightning flash (which still doesn’t make a difference against skilled players who can count to three) to land it means it is not even remotely in the place where it needs to be.

Like the idea of channelling so you can detonate it earlier. So many times I wish I could detonate early when I mess it up rather than sit around for it to finish or just dodge to cancel it. Hopefully this happens

Definitely doesn’t need boons or bonuses when using it though.

Churning Earth in a 1vs1 can force out a dodge.

Luimes.4281:

Churning Earth in a 1vs1 can force out a dodge.

Not only can churning earth force out a dodge in a 1v1, they can beat up on you for the entire duration of the channel and then dodge. Unless you have a more bunker-y spec, you would die or have to pop a defensive util like arcane shield. That, or you could get easily interrupted as you’re a sitting duck during that 3s channel.

What if the skill was redesigned to do tiered damage and give bonus damage for each bleed on the target?

Churning Earth — Applies X stacks of bleed every second. Each second the skill does ramped up damage. Just as an example:

Second 1: 200 damage, 2 stacks of bleed, +50 damage for each stack of bleed on the target.
Second 2: 300 damage, 2 stacks of bleed, +50 damage for each stack of bleed on the target.
Second 3: 400 damage, 2 stacks of bleed, +50 damage for each stack of bleed on the target.

This way you will always do some amount of damage to the target and if someone’s foolish enough to stand in it for the full duration they’ll really be hurt pretty bad. Plus it will synergize with some of the other skills due to the condi applicaiton and is useful to power and condi builds alike.

Luimes.4281:

Churning Earth in a 1vs1 can force out a dodge.

The game is not balanced around 1v1s so thats pretty irrelevant.

I’ve thought about CE at length, and the predictability issue. The problem is that other players see the Ele “winding up” as it were, and three seconds is a long time in a game as fast paced as GW2.

I would propose that the simplest fix for CE is to make it an instant cast skill, that still has its own wind-up, similar to Eruption. The Ele would trigger CE, the animation would start, but the Ele would no longer be rooted in place. This would give the Ele more tactical flexibility, and slightly higher DPS by being able to use other skills while the CE is “loading” itself, such as using Signet of Earth to immobilize an opponent in the AoE.

In many areas of play, I can see a changed CE being used as a time bomb of sorts, or in area denial without leaving the Ele so exposed to return fire.

Don’t touch my churning. It’s a spike damage skill that’s great in tPvP and GvGs.

Churning Earth is fine. If you think it’s too hard to use, then make it so it still explodes with lower damage when you cancel it mid way.

Cast time 3s
0.5s → 10% dmg
1.0s → 20% dmg
1.5s → 35% dmg
2.0s → 55% dmg
2.5s → 70% dmg
3.0s → 100% dmg

This way, it’s not too OP for great Eles, while not too punishing for newbie Eles. Notice that the scaling is not linear, so there is more incentive for people to try to cast as long as possible.

Please don’t suggest adding things like Protection into Churning Earth. It will make me really OP, and I don’t want people to complain that I’m OP. Thanks

This is incredibly frustrating. Is anyone even reading my posts? I keep seeing a bunch of knee-jerk reactions to the title of the thread.

Kaleban.9834:

I would propose that the simplest fix for CE is to make it an instant cast skill, that still has its own wind-up, similar to Eruption. The Ele would trigger CE, the animation would start, but the Ele would no longer be rooted in place. This would give the Ele more tactical flexibility, and slightly higher DPS by being able to use other skills while the CE is “loading” itself, such as using Signet of Earth to immobilize an opponent in the AoE.

Yes, I agree that it’s predictable, but I disagree with your changes. I think that is far from the simplest fix and also I think the skill is ultimately fine how it is. The easiest way to remove the predictability aspect is to just let us be able to choose how long the cast time is, in other words be able to detonate it for less damage. I don’t think it needs the changes you have listed to be in the place it is right now and I don’t think it’s meant to be easy to land, but it shouldn’t be incredibly predictable either.

Joseph.7213:

Don’t touch my churning. It’s a spike damage skill that’s great in tPvP and GvGs.

My suggestion would not change how you use churning earth. It would give you the option to detonate it earlier for less damage, so you could still use it exactly how you are.

Sunshine.5014:

Churning Earth is fine. If you think it’s too hard to use, then make it so it still explodes with lower damage when you cancel it mid way.

That is exactly what I said in my opening posts and all of my subsequent posts! Have you even read anything I have posted?

Sunshine.5014:

Please don’t suggest adding things like Protection into Churning Earth. It will make me really OP, and I don’t want people to complain that I’m OP. Thanks

Again, I did not suggest that. I replied to another poster that a change like that would be silly because it would not address the problem of predictability. I know this thread is not exactly short, but please read more carefully before you reply.

Churning Earth is actually probably the most well designed skill in the game. It’s powerful, but not broken op, has a tell, can be reacted to, and requires a setup to pull off. The problem is that a LOT of other skills are just idiotic failures of balance that have no counterplay or downside and dont require any skill to use. The game needs MORE Churning Earths not less.

Sweetbread.2679:

Churning Earth is actually probably the most well designed skill in the game. It’s powerful, but not broken op, has a tell, can be reacted to, and requires a setup to pull off. The problem is that a LOT of other skills are just idiotic failures of balance that have no counterplay or downside and dont require any skill to use. The game needs MORE Churning Earths not less.

I agree with you to an extent. I am all about high risk/high reward skills because they encourage skilled play. The problem is it is so easy to counter just by counting to three and dodging even with a setup using lightning flash or any other defensive utility. I am not suggesting changing the skill entirely. Landing the skill after the full 3 1/4s channel would still have the same degree of difficulty but just be slightly less predictable.

I’m sure this video has been shared several times all over the place. But it shows that – given some coordinated play – you can have lots of fun with Churning Earth in WvW.

http://youtu.be/HzBV9X6Z07M

Also when you are playing solo, you can land this skill nicely. All you have to do is use your environment so the opponent does not see the cast animation until it’s too late. When you analyise the maps you are playing on, there are some nice spots where you can start a cast unnoticed and lightning flash to you target easily.

However, I would really like a change like the one described above (DMG depending on how long you cast it). If I’m not totally mistaken, I can remember the skill working a bit differently in beta… I’m not sure if it didn’t even have a similar mechanic as described by you.

Another idea: Given the cripple is already kind of “pulsing” they could add some dmg to these pulses…

Weena.6429:

This is incredibly frustrating. Is anyone even reading my posts? I keep seeing a bunch of knee-jerk reactions to the title of the thread.

Yes, I agree that it’s predictable, but I disagree with your changes. I think that is far from the simplest fix and also I think the skill is ultimately fine how it is. The easiest way to remove the predictability aspect is to just let us be able to choose how long the cast time is, in other words be able to detonate it for less damage. I don’t think it needs the changes you have listed to be in the place it is right now and I don’t think it’s meant to be easy to land, but it shouldn’t be incredibly predictable either.

Making it do less damage for a quick detonate turns it into a might stacker, not a hard hitting player skill dependent kill shot.

The changes I listed would make the skill more tactical and less predictable, because then enemy players would have to look for the ground tell, and not the elementalist channeling for 3.25 secs. Especially in WvW, with the ground circle being nearly the same as Barrage (which isn’t really a threat) many players don’t even see it coming.

The only place CE is really “predictable” is in PvP, and my changes would make it much more useful there as a chokepoint killer and area denial skill that gives an Ele more tactical flexibility.

But by all means, keep arguing for LESS damage on the squishiest profession that has no inherent defenses like other professions, and has to spec full glass just to keep on par with meta point holders.

If I were to bandaid it, I would just add pulsing AoE cripple for the duration of the cast so people don’t step away from it that easily. But meh.

Weena.6429:

Sweetbread.2679:

Churning Earth is actually probably the most well designed skill in the game. It’s powerful, but not broken op, has a tell, can be reacted to, and requires a setup to pull off. The problem is that a LOT of other skills are just idiotic failures of balance that have no counterplay or downside and dont require any skill to use. The game needs MORE Churning Earths not less.

I agree with you to an extent. I am all about high risk/high reward skills because they encourage skilled play. The problem is it is so easy to counter just by counting to three and dodging even with a setup using lightning flash or any other defensive utility. I am not suggesting changing the skill entirely. Landing the skill after the full 3 1/4s channel would still have the same degree of difficulty but just be slightly less predictable.

Atm the best way to pull it off is probably earth 4 stun > signet of earth or arcane surge immobs instead of lightning flash, but I do think charge skills should come back as they add a LOT to the depth of the game. With so many powerful invulnerabilities like dodge and baked in evades readily available, this game’s combat desperately needs some sort of mixup mechanic. At least they could get rid of the cripple during the windup so you could cancel it to bait out a dodge without putting it on a 30 second cooldown.

Luimes.4281:

Churning Earth in a 1vs1 can force out a dodge.

I cast my Churning Earth, my opponent beats on me for 3 seconds… Was it worth the forced dodge roll/block? Sure you could use shocking aura or arcane shield to prevent hits, but I just don’t find this being an optimal strat 98% of the time. The only time I find CE useful in 1v1 is vs an opponent who has no idea how it works, or vs MM necro pets/mesmer phantoms, even then its only rarely optimal to use. The skill simply needs an option to detonate between 1 and 3 1/4 seconds, with the damage scaled accordingly of course.

Rayti.6531:

I’m sure this video has been shared several times all over the place. But it shows that – given some coordinated play – you can have lots of fun with Churning Earth in WvW.

http://youtu.be/HzBV9X6Z07M

Also when you are playing solo, you can land this skill nicely. All you have to do is use your environment so the opponent does not see the cast animation until it’s too late. When you analyise the maps you are playing on, there are some nice spots where you can start a cast unnoticed and lightning flash to you target easily.

However, I would really like a change like the one described above (DMG depending on how long you cast it). If I’m not totally mistaken, I can remember the skill working a bit differently in beta… I’m not sure if it didn’t even have a similar mechanic as described by you.

Another idea: Given the cripple is already kind of “pulsing” they could add some dmg to these pulses…

I will admit CE is quite useful in a well coordinated team, wither its a thief stealthing you, a hammer warrior coordinated with you and spamming well placed knock downs, an engy using a well placed glue bomb, you get the idea. It would be nice though if the skill would not rely on a well coordinated team.

Here is exactly how I think the skill should be modified.

You begin to cast CE, a visual pulsing effect begins around the elementalist which happens in 1 second intervals (perhaps Anet could use the effect which ques in the player of a potential magnetic leap). CE is now allowed to be detonated at exactly
the 1st, 2nd or 3rd second of it being casted. While the skill is channeling the
elementalist is free to move, but not allowed to do anything else, he must focus on channeling and executing the ability before using anything else to his/her advantage. Depending on when the skill is detonated the damage will scale accordingly, the 8 bleeds will always apply regardless of when it was detonated.

When the enemy is busy with some other ppl it can be fun to go for churning earth, but most of eles just go for burning speed + lighting flash to land full dmg right in the face (if you click all good :P ). The cripple effect is annoying cause it counts as “already doing some damage” and puts the skill on full cd even if it’s cancelled. Maybe if the cripple was removed and the skill would go on full cd only when fully casted, bleh…

Other funny idea I had is: remove cripple, add stealth, bomb bomb bomb! skill description: "hide behind rocks…. " xD Nah, just kidding But stealth bombing (if you don’t get revealed) is fun definately, just imagine the enemy faces if they get critted by few eles (well 2-3 should make them downed definately if skills land). Still in the end I think you can pretty safely land 2x BS in the time of CE, with 15s vs 30s cooldown, with probably much better effects (evade, not sitting in 1 spot waiting for cast and so on). Let’s say it was fun skill long long ago when ppl were not so good with dodging it. Many still can’t, but yeah…