Guild Wars 2

Me and a few people where talking about crit vs power. Most people know that power is the best offensive stat then when you reach a certain threshold of crit damage then precision becomes important. My friend said that consistency is why crit chance is better.

I was thinking about classic D/D 0/10/0/30/30 most people always run bloodlust with this set then a sigil of force after you get stacks.

I was thinking isn’t perception better on D/D than Bloodlust? The reason I am asking this now is I have been viewing my play lately I currently sit at 10 stacks of might 28 crit chance and 48 crit damage on one of my gear setups for D/D 1868 power before might.

When I look at D/D if you run FGS you will easily sit over 2300 power. Might stacking I stay around 10 stacks with just 30 in Arcana. When I run boon duration setup I sit around 16-20 stacks if the fight lasts longer than 15-20 seconds. Both of these setups have lower crit chance prefury but since might is so easy doesn’t precision become more important especially for important attacks/burst attacks like burning speed, firegrab and lightning whip.

This is WvW

man i spent 20 minutes writing a reply and then it got deleted. Long story short, 12% additional crit chance. Is it worth it? If you are going for more of a bursting type of play style I think going for added precision is wise. If you wanted more of a sustained damage then power would be the way to go.

FrownyClown.8402:

man i spent 20 minutes writing a reply and then it got deleted. Long story short, 12% additional crit chance. Is it worth it? If you are going for more of a bursting type of play style I think going for added precision is wise. If you wanted more of a sustained damage then power would be the way to go.

Yea I think perception is what I need. I really hate not crit fire grabs

You didn’t say what gear you’re using. Zerk, or something else? That is an important factor in bloodlust vs. perception.

Factor in your power/prec/crit dmg stats, your multipliers, your food, your boons, and your buffs, then do one simulation w/ 250 extra power, then a second simulation w/ 250 extra prec. If the first simulation has a higher effective power, use bloodlust. If the second does, use perception. It’s that simple.

Anierna.6918:

You didn’t say what gear you’re using. Zerk, or something else? That is an important factor in bloodlust vs. perception.

Factor in your power/prec/crit dmg stats, your multipliers, your food, your boons, and your buffs, then do one simulation w/ 250 extra power, then a second simulation w/ 250 extra prec. If the first simulation has a higher effective power, use bloodlust. If the second does, use perception. It’s that simple.

I did something similar in what would of been my first post. It wasn’t much of a difference in total damage. The increased precision will help key blows though. Especially with celestial gear. The damage is substantially better with increased precision.

Anierna.6918:

You didn’t say what gear you’re using. Zerk, or something else? That is an important factor in bloodlust vs. perception.

Factor in your power/prec/crit dmg stats, your multipliers, your food, your boons, and your buffs, then do one simulation w/ 250 extra power, then a second simulation w/ 250 extra prec. If the first simulation has a higher effective power, use bloodlust. If the second does, use perception. It’s that simple.

I have looked at the effective power difference between the 2 and bloodlust always wins just like superior sharpening stones is always higher than maintenance oils. Even if I go over 2300 power just adding it in manually it is always higher effective power for Power. The only close difference is Pow/Pre food and Pow/Crit Dmg food alwys give very close effective power while Pre/Crit Dmg food is always less effective power than the other choices. This is using buildcrafts calculations.

It is knights armor, celestial accessories, celestial amulet cav rings, cav backpiece pvt daggers.

With a low crit chance power food will better because even with boosted precision you arent going to crit often enough to make it overtake the increase in dps from power. Using effective power is the best way to find whats best. Its very slightly different when comparing beserker builds with dps traitlines. Almost neglible in some cases.

There are thefeely wishy washy answers like many above.
And then there is the average damage answer. Which you get from using say gw2buildcraft.
With your 10might and perma fury + base, bloodlust gives 3% more damage on average.

If you can find a way to pump out the power further in cost of precision, you can easily get another 5% more dmg on top of that with same amount of stats (based on my quick test). Although that can be challenging if you are really fond of that extreme toughness sustainy type gearing.

Sabull.5670:

There are thefeely wishy washy answers like many above.
And then there is the average damage answer. Which you get from using say gw2buildcraft.

@ Sabull: gw2buildcraft is one of many calculators for effective power – not “average damage,” as you put it. They are totally different things. Effective power is only useful in comparing damage within the same profession with the same wep set and rotations. Average damage can be used to compare specific builds within AND between classes, but requires a LOT more work to calculate. Certainly more work than your quick use of gw2buildcraft to provide your own “wishy washy” answer.

Although effective power does have a bearing on average damage, there are other factors in play. An example of this is comparing the staff ele meta to the S/D + LH meta – just comparing effective power from, as per your example, gw2buildcraft will not give you a definitive answer. You have to factor in length of rotations, damage per skill used, might applied to group at various times, etc – all of which gw2buildcraft is useless for, although there is a nice list Zelyhn made up that would help with this task.

Anierna.6918:

…

Op has the specifics figured out, and only thing being compared is the type of stacks. Buildcraft really is the answer here.

Anierna.6918:

Sabull.5670:

There are thefeely wishy washy answers like many above.
And then there is the average damage answer. Which you get from using say gw2buildcraft.

@ Sabull: gw2buildcraft is one of many calculators for effective power – not “average damage,” as you put it. They are totally different things. Effective power is only useful in comparing damage within the same profession with the same wep set and rotations. Average damage can be used to compare specific builds within AND between classes, but requires a LOT more work to calculate. Certainly more work than your quick use of gw2buildcraft to provide your own “wishy washy” answer.
…

Cmon mang, if you know what they are you should know they are essentially the same thing. Effective describes the average situation, hell it’s directly calculated from average damage….. Just leaving out weapondamage, skillfactor, modifier and armor as a common factor. And in determening bloodlust vs perception, they are not a variable… I do not know why you jump into rotation calculation, thing that I have helped Zelyhn personally on, including that list.

So it is doable in buildcraft.

FOr the classic DnD , bloodlust is by far superior.

Because the answer is simple.

Most fights will last beyond 10 seconds. For that power is supreme in the long run.

This is an old graph that was by a friend to show you the difference.

I actually had a pow-wow with a few other eles and we sat around, debated and tested both power, precision and crit dmg.

We decided that anything over 60% crit chance was almost a waste when you could chuck the rest into power.

Eles have it very nice because we have permanent Fury. So we can call 40% crit chance 60% without actually building for that extra 20%.

Therefore, I use power food and bloodlust, with a crit chance sigil.

I guess the better question is how important is Fire grab, lightning whip, burning speed, and to a lesser extent churning earth to have them crit? Fire grab and churning are on long cooldowns but Fire Grab is a pretty big swing in a fights momentum when it crits with a much easier setup especially if you run cleansing flame. You almost guarantee a hit on fire grab with a earthquake + cleansing flame + fire grab, shocking aura stun + cleansing flame + fire grab, updraft + cleansing flame + fire grab.

IMO perception is much better if you are stacking crit damage. It allows lighting whip to apply amazing pressure.

oZii.2864:

Anierna.6918:

You didn’t say what gear you’re using. Zerk, or something else? That is an important factor in bloodlust vs. perception.

Factor in your power/prec/crit dmg stats, your multipliers, your food, your boons, and your buffs, then do one simulation w/ 250 extra power, then a second simulation w/ 250 extra prec. If the first simulation has a higher effective power, use bloodlust. If the second does, use perception. It’s that simple.

I have looked at the effective power difference between the 2 and bloodlust always wins just like superior sharpening stones is always higher than maintenance oils. Even if I go over 2300 power just adding it in manually it is always higher effective power for Power. The only close difference is Pow/Pre food and Pow/Crit Dmg food alwys give very close effective power while Pre/Crit Dmg food is always less effective power than the other choices. This is using buildcrafts calculations.

It is knights armor, celestial accessories, celestial amulet cav rings, cav backpiece pvt daggers.

I used to run almost the exact same combination of gear stats as you, except my rings were celestial and accessories were cavalier, weird. Anyway, I tried both and just found bloodlust to be better for me all around. Even with the extra crit chance from the sigil and fury, you still wont be that high. I missed the extra power from the bloodlust and finally settled on just using bloodlust and then swapping it for a dagger with the 5% crit chance thing on it when I was maxed. You could always do the opposite though and get the perception sigil and then swap it for a dagger with force on it. I kept switching back and forth and wasted a lot of gold before finally settling on bloodlust because i’m indecisive.

So I did some basic theorycrafting on the key skills I mentioned to look at the difference. I pulled the coefficient from Zelyhn’s sticky thread.

I’m a basic theorycrafter so I apologize if I made a mistake somewhere. Any corrections would be welcome This is without factoring in bountiful power.

Formula: Damage done = Weapon damage * Power * skill coefficient * (1 + (critical hit chance * (0.5 + (Critical damage bonus from gear + traits in % / 100%))) / Target’s armor

Using my stats Standard D/D 0/10/0/30/30

Weapon damage : 952.5
Power (base; with gear, without sigils, WITH 10 stacks of might): 2160 no stacks
Skill coefficients: Lightning whip (.7) Burning Speed (2) Fire Grab vs Burning (2.4)
Critical hit chance: 45% (With Fury) no stacks
Critical damage: 50% base + 51% from gear & traits
Target’s armor: 2600

Lightning Whip: Bloodlust 898 / Perception 873 (2.7% difference in favor of bloodlust)

Burning Speed: Bloodlust 2568 / Perception 2493 (2.9% difference in favor of bloodlust)

Fire Grab vs Burning: Bloodlust 3595 / Perception 3491 (2.9% difference in favor of bloodlust)

Pretty much what Sabull estimated.

I do hate not getting crits on these attacks though time to add some more precision to my gear. Stacking bloodlust it is.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fEAQJAoIGAIPAAAAEFAo8AAAAA-j0xAYrAm9iYCcIrthioxqtx0uBRFLVLFwFLjA-w

maybe something like this? puts you at a solid 50% crit chance.

FrownyClown.8402:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fEAQJAoIGAIPAAAAEFAo8AAAAA-j0xAYrAm9iYCcIrthioxqtx0uBRFLVLFwFLjA-w

maybe something like this? puts you at a solid 50% crit chance.

I am at 45% currently I can just stack bloodlust and put a accuracy on. I will may throw on a zerk amulet though when I get the laurels.

2 celestial daggers would also put me at 50% even.

As a more or less pure PvEer who runs around in full DPS gear all day, it’s been really fun to read this discussion.

Here’s a spreadsheet I’ve been using for some effective power calculations. It’s based off [DnT]‘s basic EP calculator spreadsheet. It makes it pretty easy to compare bloodlust vs. perception or even different weapon/armor/trinket setups given that you’re using the same weapon set. I usually use buildcraft to calculate the attribute numbers that I then plug into this. It’s currently tuned for PvE, but it shouldn’t be hard to change it to more WvW use. I could also make a WvW version if someone tells me what assumptions I should make when putting in multipliers and boons.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApxtWkBqYzjwdDN0RnF6T1djeDU0c0VhWUhDTlEzbHc&usp=sharing

DEKeyzToChaos.7381:

As a more or less pure PvEer who runs around in full DPS gear all day, it’s been really fun to read this discussion.

Here’s a spreadsheet I’ve been using for some effective power calculations. It’s based off [DnT]‘s basic EP calculator spreadsheet. It makes it pretty easy to compare bloodlust vs. perception or even different weapon/armor/trinket setups given that you’re using the same weapon set. I usually use buildcraft to calculate the attribute numbers that I then plug into this. It’s currently tuned for PvE, but it shouldn’t be hard to change it to more WvW use. I could also make a WvW version if someone tells me what assumptions I should make when putting in multipliers and boons.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApxtWkBqYzjwdDN0RnF6T1djeDU0c0VhWUhDTlEzbHc&usp=sharing

I have seen your spreedsheet before somewhere not sure where I saw it though possibly reddit?

Looking at it your spreadsheet can work for WvW no problem.

I brought the discussion up because I knew bloodlust was going to be the winner Power is almost always going to be better IF you are forced to chose between the 2 and this is a case where it is clear cut a choice between power and precision.

My problem is that while I know power is better than precision in almost all cases sitting at my current crit chance for this particular build certain skills that do good damage i.e. lightning whip, fire grab, burning speed critical hits are big from a psychological standpoint in a fight. In a strictly numbers without factoring in dodges, damage mitigation utilities, type of enemy etc. Then it is power but that is what makes PvP hard to theorycraft so many variables but I do enjoy to know these things as guidelines.

oZii.2864:

DEKeyzToChaos.7381:

As a more or less pure PvEer who runs around in full DPS gear all day, it’s been really fun to read this discussion.

Here’s a spreadsheet I’ve been using for some effective power calculations. It’s based off [DnT]‘s basic EP calculator spreadsheet. It makes it pretty easy to compare bloodlust vs. perception or even different weapon/armor/trinket setups given that you’re using the same weapon set. I usually use buildcraft to calculate the attribute numbers that I then plug into this. It’s currently tuned for PvE, but it shouldn’t be hard to change it to more WvW use. I could also make a WvW version if someone tells me what assumptions I should make when putting in multipliers and boons.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApxtWkBqYzjwdDN0RnF6T1djeDU0c0VhWUhDTlEzbHc&usp=sharing

I have seen your spreedsheet before somewhere not sure where I saw it though possibly reddit?

I don’t know, the original spreadsheet isn’t mine. It’s likely that Nike posted this on reddit or got it from reddit and started keeping it up to date, and only recently did I expand it for my own ele-centric purposes.

DEKeyzToChaos.7381:

oZii.2864:

DEKeyzToChaos.7381:

As a more or less pure PvEer who runs around in full DPS gear all day, it’s been really fun to read this discussion.

Here’s a spreadsheet I’ve been using for some effective power calculations. It’s based off [DnT]‘s basic EP calculator spreadsheet. It makes it pretty easy to compare bloodlust vs. perception or even different weapon/armor/trinket setups given that you’re using the same weapon set. I usually use buildcraft to calculate the attribute numbers that I then plug into this. It’s currently tuned for PvE, but it shouldn’t be hard to change it to more WvW use. I could also make a WvW version if someone tells me what assumptions I should make when putting in multipliers and boons.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApxtWkBqYzjwdDN0RnF6T1djeDU0c0VhWUhDTlEzbHc&usp=sharing

I have seen your spreedsheet before somewhere not sure where I saw it though possibly reddit?

I don’t know, the original spreadsheet isn’t mine. It’s likely that Nike posted this on reddit or got it from reddit and started keeping it up to date, and only recently did I expand it for my own ele-centric purposes.

I actually found how I can increase the dps at a minor loss of toughness. I have a precision/power/toughness ring which in everything I ran comes out ahead of the cavalier ring I have while also getting to the 50% crit chance mark with fury. I totally forgot I had that ring.